EPT[TV] HBO Game of Thrones - Page 563
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On June 04 2012 03:09 Flik wrote: Im also going to point out that even though they're based on the Mongolians they're still fucking Doth'raki. Do you think if Drogo seen Roberts army march out to meet them he would tuck tail and run and pew pew with arrows? Fuck no. He would go balls to the wall and full on attack. Just curious, whats the range of an english longbow compared to an archer on horseback? Mongolians weren't "pussies" neither. And you can imagine that Drogo, to be the head of 100 000 people, is not some sort of empty-headed Rambo. Also, an english longbow could outrange an archer on horseback by far, but 1) I havent seen such bows in the show and 2) it us unlikely that any medium-sized army can gather more than 10 000 decent archers. I didn't know the south of Westeros was such a bad place to land since I haven't read the books, so I guess the Reach is a better option. Let's also not forget any potential allies to the Targaryen cause, or those who would submit out of fear (smaller cities for example). | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
On June 04 2012 03:25 Cel.erity wrote: This seems the biggest obstacle to me as well. The Doth'raki are brutally strong, but are they good strategists? Do they know how to fight an entire kingdom? Do they understand attrition, do they know the lay of the land? Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but these are all important questions. The Dothraki do have some big weaknesses. First they would be in hostile territory which is an obvious disadvantage although less so because they've always lived off the land. And second because while they're mobile in battle they're not actually that mobile out of battle. They have all their food a baggage train and women and children which they will need to protect with them at all times. What I would do to battle them is take everything eatable from the lands where they're going and then let everyone in the cities. Now assemble an army of horsemen and just let them follow the Dothraki everywhere they go without attacking (Fabian tactics). Now there will always be the threat that the supply train of the Dothraki will get attacked and at the same time there's not a lot of eatable stuff left to live on. So they can't really attack the opponents army because they're on horse too but they can't really leave their supply train either because then it would just get raided. An important aspect of this strategy will be a lot of scouts so that you know the exact movement of the opponent so whenever they send out a raiding party you know where it's going and you can overwhelm the enemy this way it'will be really difficult for the Dothraki to raid and you'll just have to wait for disease and famine to spread across the enemy troops while assembling a big army from all the kingdoms and then it will be possible to beat them. That would be what I would do anyway :D. | ||
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Corrik
United States1416 Posts
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
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NotAPro
Canada146 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:45 NotAPro wrote: You think the people of Westeros would stay loyal to the Lanisters if the Dothraki invaded? If her Khalasar did land I'm pretty sure she would have gained the throne. Why would they be loyal to the people who raided their homes. On top of that theyre two way different cultures the people of westeros are no nomads and I doubt they want to be and the dothraki aren't the kind of people to sit in cities and castles and rule like that either. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:45 NotAPro wrote: You think the people of Westeros would stay loyal to the Lanisters if the Dothraki invaded? If her Khalasar did land I'm pretty sure she would have gained the throne. If you're unhappy with the Canadian government and think your taxes are too high, does that mean you would join forces with a savage alien race to overthrow said government and plunge the country into chaos? I think such an event would have a unifying effect on Westeros, as others have suggested. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
Actually, the Dothraki being nomads, they already have the necessary logistics necessary to an invasion. The only problem is the Narrow Sea, which is... narrow. With the money they gather from simply showing up at random cities, they would have little trouble buying a mercenary fleet from Quarth or Penthos. The second point was raised by Renly, to which Robert answered that the king would have no authority if he stayed in his castle while is subjects are being massacred outside of the walls. Not only that, but cities can only last so long before starving out, while the Khalasar is free to take what they need and burn the surroundings so that when they do leave, there is nothing left of that region. Mercenaries aren't also that rare to come by, and could very well be recruited in Essos to begin with. If Robert waits, he loses the realm! And most importantly, the Dothraki don't have to fight. They can go on a rampage and can avoid unfavorable fights for as long as they need. Just look at this map and imagine that the fleet sails from the south-west of Essos to Sunspear. What can the westerosi do? They could never unite their forces in time. ![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X0-d8-egv_U/TZzhwk6gDrI/AAAAAAAADi4/O8xx8w_JtTg/s1600/Westeros%2B%2526%2BEssos.png) In short, the Dothraki are a mortal threat because :
The only strong argument in favour of the Westerosi is that we're not sure the Dothraki can really cross the sea if they wanted to. But they do, numbers are irrelevant because, again, the Dothraki can not be forced to fight and also because you simply can't feed 100K soldiers when the country is on fire. Such a huge army is already a problem in itself. I quarrel with the Doth'raki logistics was under the assumption that somehow, the entire Khalisar could instantly be teleported across the narrow sea (because in all honesty, that is the only way it could make it across. All the fleets in the world would be needed to transport an army that large in one trip, including horses and supplies). If you're allowing them to hire mercenaries in Essos before they teleport, you're just making the logistics of the invasion even more absurd. Let me reemphasize, there is no way they could assemble or hire a fleet large enough to transport the entire army in one trip. Multiple trips would be a disaster. The only reason the Doth'raki invasion is even fathomable is because we are assuming "if the Doth'raki had made it across the narrow sea..." This goes back to the entire attrition argument, simply put, once in Westeros, the Doth'raki army will do nothing but shrink over time. Robert would probably have ultimate authority because as many have mentioned, if anything, a Doth'raki invasion would unite pretty much all of Westeros under a single cause (Cersei would probably even put her shit on hold for fear that Joffrey might not have a throne if the Doth'raki aren't stopped). Back to the mercenaries, I am going to bet that there are very few people in Westeros capable of speaking the Doth'raki language, the cultural barrier would make hiring any mercenaries extremely unlikely which goes back to the fact that the Doth'raki would be stuck in foreign enemy territory without any access to reinforcements. You're mistaken, the Doth'raki DO have to fight. They are a nomadic horde, they have to raid and pillage for supplies. If they just camp outside King's landing, they will just starve and die off to attrition. Any city with a port would be impossible to take. They have no knowledge of the landscape, this massive horde would be wandering the countryside without any clear goal in sight with the only guide being Jorah Mormont. They would almost never have the advantage of a surprise attacks, their scouts unfamiliar with the land would be vastly inferior to any Westerosi scouts. I have no idea what you think they will accomplish by sailing around Sunspear, are you suggesting they invade Dorne and it's desertlands or the Reach first? Well, lets just assume hundreds and thousands don't die to lost ships and what not. None of the aforementioned problems have been solved. Even if the Doth'raki manage to shut up all of the armies of the Reach within castles, all of Westeros would have plenty of time to assemble various armies which vastly outnumber the Doth'raki. The Doth'raki just wouldn't have the resources to compete with a united empire of Westeros (because let's be real, it really is an Empire). You say that the 40,000 Horseman are what will win the Doth'raki the day, but I'm fairly certain Westeros could muster up close to that number of armored lancers in addition to hundreds of thousands of infantry. Also, people should stop comparing the Doth'raki to the Mongols so literally, the Mongols had SOME armor at least, as far as we've seen, the Doth'raki literally ride into battle shirtless with Arachs and Bows as their primary weapons without any armor whatsoever. As far as Cavalry comparisons go, do you really think the Arach stands any chance against the Lance and an Armored Knight? The only weapon the Doth'raki have at their disposal that could actually compete with armored knights, on foot or horseback, would be horse archers, and I'm sure that ceases to be a problem when you're able to vastly outnumber their horse archers with archers on foot. Shit, I might as well close by saying the Doth'raki probably don't even have enough arrows to kill the Westerosi with, that's how badly the Doth'raki would be outnumbered, out armed, out informed, out resourced, etc etc etc... | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:37 dukethegold wrote: All of Westeros would be hard pressed to assemble 40,000 mounted knights and none of them can ride as well or as fast as the Dorthraki as well as being incompetent in horse archery. Should the Dorthraki land, they will never win Dany the throne but they certainly will be a plague upon the kingdom for years to come. I would just like to emphasize that this would be the best the Doth'raki could hope to accomplish. It would be similar to the slave revolts in the late Roman Republic that never stood a chance of actually taking down the Empire, but still caused a lot of damage. On June 04 2012 05:45 NotAPro wrote: You think the people of Westeros would stay loyal to the Lanisters if the Dothraki invaded? If her Khalasar did land I'm pretty sure she would have gained the throne. You mean Baratheons? Yes, if anything it would have made the seven Kingdoms even more loyal to the Iron Throne. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22063 Posts
The only thing we know is that the Council was scared badly of even the possibility of invasion. Untill another source from the series says otherwise that is all we have to base anything on and speculation is pretty damn pointless.... Especially since Danny no longer even has an army. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On June 04 2012 07:04 Gorsameth wrote: ... I love these baseless comparions and theorys. Who is to say the Dorthaki cant cross the sea. How do you know the fleets in Quarth or other coastal towns. This entire argument is basicly pointless. Were talking about a fantasy world that we dont know, a people whos tactics we dont know and your trying to predict wars? The only thing we know is that the Council was scared badly of even the possibility of invasion. Untill another source from the series says otherwise that is all we have to base anything on and speculation is pretty damn pointless.... Especially since Danny no longer even has an army. You're talking about a naval invasion occurring in the middle ages that would be on the same scale as the D-Day invasion. As wealthy as Drogo was, there is no way in hell he could afford a fleet large enough to transport one hundred thousand people, forty thousand horses, and supplies in one trip. I can't believe people are contesting that the logistics of the invasion are even possible, it's bad enough they think the Doth'raki would have still stood a chance even had they somehow been teleported across the narrow sea with some sort of magic. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22063 Posts
On June 04 2012 07:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: You're talking about a naval invasion occurring in the middle ages that would be on the same scale as the D-Day invasion. As wealthy as Drogo was, there is no way in hell he could afford a fleet large enough to transport one hundred thousand people, forty thousand horses, and supplies in one trip. I can't believe people are contesting that the logistics of the invasion are even possible, it's bad enough they think the Doth'raki would have still stood a chance even had they somehow been teleported across the narrow sea with some sort of magic. The fact the council is terrified of it shows it is a very real threat. What more do you need then the actual people who rule to tell you.... Your real life comparisons are meaningless. | ||
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Flik
Canada256 Posts
Jorah says if Robert rides out to meet them on an open field they could possibly win. I think thats all we hear from the characters on the show. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On June 04 2012 07:26 Gorsameth wrote: The fact the council is terrified of it shows it is a very real threat. What more do you need then the actual people who rule to tell you.... Your real life comparisons are meaningless. Okay, my real life comparisons are meaningless. I'll retire from this amazing argument then, your example of a council of men who never pander and always have the King's interests at heart, who've never even fought in battle (with the exception of Robert who is obviously motivated for other reasons, namely killing Daenerys because he hates her house), while the one member of the Council who has led military campaigns isn't worried about them in the slightest, has clearly convinced me how wrong I am. Well done. Thank god the Doth'raki didn't hire those ten thousand ships and conquer Westeros, a continent that was only ever conquered by dragons, with their barbaric nomadic horde. | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 04 2012 07:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: You're talking about a naval invasion occurring in the middle ages that would be on the same scale as the D-Day invasion. As wealthy as Drogo was, there is no way in hell he could afford a fleet large enough to transport one hundred thousand people, forty thousand horses, and supplies in one trip. I can't believe people are contesting that the logistics of the invasion are even possible, it's bad enough they think the Doth'raki would have still stood a chance even had they somehow been teleported across the narrow sea with some sort of magic. And, as he said, your assumptions and theorycrafting are all more or less useless, because you are basing it off of scant information from a TV show. Not only that, but this is the writer's universe; you don't just get to say what is and is not improbable. Maybe, according to Martin, there are actually plenty of ships/supplies in the free cities and it wouldn't be that difficult for the Dothraki to get across? Point is, we don't know, so making all of these claims is kind of pointless. All we know is that the Council was worried about the possibility of that happening. | ||
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jakek95
United Kingdom351 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On June 04 2012 06:19 Cel.erity wrote: If you're unhappy with the Canadian government and think your taxes are too high, does that mean you would join forces with a savage alien race to overthrow said government and plunge the country into chaos? I think such an event would have a unifying effect on Westeros, as others have suggested. While I doubt many lords would take up cause with a Dothraki horde, even if it was led by a Targaryen, I also doubt that it would be as "unifying" as you think. More like than not some of the more distant, more apathetic lords (The Eyrie, Dorne, the North, The Iron Islands) would fortify their lands and little else. Dorne would likely set up camp to the north once the Dothraki landed, and protect the mountain passes with their famous spears, the mortal enemy of cavalry. The Eyrie is likely unassailable by a horse-mounted army little suited for mountainous terrain. The North would be most vulnerable from a terrain standpoint, but with winter coming and the sheer size of the realm, they could probably hold them off and hole up in their castles until the weather forces the horde south. The Iron Islands could likely destroy the entire fleet before they even reached Pyke, and even if they did attempt it, what do they gain by conquering some rocks? No, the iron islanders would likely use the opportunity to rape and pillage all up the coast of Westeros, much like they're doing now. | ||
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Corrik
United States1416 Posts
... If Drogo went, he would probably conquer a few opposing Khalasar's and send the entire Dorthraki might. He would probably send around 60,000 warriors into Westeros with another 60-70k in the khalasar. They are feared beyond belief on their continent and any city they approach would BEG to give them ships to get the threat away from them on Westeros. Summoning the ships needed to make the crossing in a few trips would be nothing hard. Obviously they would send the warriors first and the non-combatants in later trips incase Westeros navies caught wind and attempted to stop the invasion. There absolutely would be some houses willing to help the Dothraki, due to Targaryren claim to throne and to better their houses. So, let's put the estimated numbers at realistically... 50k Dothraki horse... 5k Westeros Foot... 5k sellswords... for an estimated 65,000 troops. Highgarden and Dorne would probably field around 90k. (And banners). Baratheon would probably field around 35k. (KL+SE and banners) Dragonstone would probably field around 20k (and banners). Lannisters would probably field around 25k (and banners) Ned would probably field around 25k (North+RIverlands) Iron Islands would probably field around 15k (and banners) The Vale could probably field about 15k. 225k estimate. Probably 40k of which is horse. The Dothraki would probably land north of Dragonstone, hoping to quickly get to land before the fleets of KL and DS descend upon it. Assuming they land their warriors before fleets can stop them (which might be doable due to size of fleet being used and assembling Westeros fleets), they quickly swarm West looking to go to KL. Robert's army prepares to defend KL with couriers being sent everywhere begging for troops. Some houses decide not to help or perhaps rally to the Targ claim. Greyjoys probably decide to let the continent rot and send no troops. They are still seething from their failed rebellion. What better revenge. The Vale refuses to send troops due to Lysa's incompentence and fear. SE sends troops to KL. Highgarden and Dorne questionably (Dorne might just sit back and let the Dothraki come to them... debatable if they would send troops). Meet up in the Reach to form a 90k army. KL has a 35k army outside of it... and a 90k army coming from the south to assist eventually. Starks call banners to the Twins. Lannisters call banners to Casterly Rock. This is where things get messy. The Dothraki would probably feint towards KL... swarm west to Riverrun and then to Casterly Rock. Hoping to eliminate these forces before they united. If they can destroy the Lannister might and the Stark might before they can unite with the South, the Dothraki ranks should probably swell with defeated houses bending the knee until they could realistically probably have a good chance of defeating the entire Southern host. Just how I envision it and why I think the Dothraki threat is... REAL. And why I think the council was worried about it. THIS IS OF COURSE ALL BASELESS AND JUST A WAY I COULD ENVISION IT. | ||
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