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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 03 2012 13:40 Steveling wrote:
Argh, that's so wrong I cringed upon reading it.
*also it's called phalanx. xP
Anyway this argument is pretty pointless since the focus in that scenario would be the dragons and in how many seconds they would obliterate everything and not some horses and whatnot.
The argument is pointless (but fun) for many reasons (Drogo died, it's all speculation, etc) but the dragons aren't one of them. In this scenario we are talking about the invasion having already happened, and 3 fire breathing dog sized dragons (that wouldn't have been born had Drogo not died) aren't going to obliterate anything.
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There is only one way to settle this:
Poll: If Khal Drogo would have tried to invade Westeros, would he have won?No (44) 51% White Walkers (26) 30% Yes (17) 20% 87 total votes Your vote: If Khal Drogo would have tried to invade Westeros, would he have won? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): White Walkers
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How come Drogo's Khalasar never sacked Qarth? Qarth give enough gifts? or is Qarth able to fend off a Khalasar.
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Bah, the fun was in the discussion, not the answer =P Oh well, only an hour and a half left at work then tomorrow is Pathfinder and the season finale! Just sad how long I'll have to wait til next season, probably have to re-read the books during the downtime.
EDIT: Qarth is across the Red Waste, look at how bad of shape the tiny Khalasar was in, and then imagine trying to have enough supplies for one thousands of times larger... The other cities were just closer and easier to threaten would be my guess.
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On June 03 2012 14:24 TeePee wrote:
How come Drogo's Khalasar never sacked Qarth? Qarth give enough gifts? or is Qarth able to fend off a Khalasar.
Probably gave them gifts. Drogo's hair has never been cut so they didn't fight Qarth and lose. Given the money and influence the 13 had, Qarth also probably coulda held em off too.
Daneryes group was like 20 people so I can only guess you mean before the shows events
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On June 03 2012 14:26 Critter wrote:
Bah, the fun was in the discussion, not the answer =P Oh well, only an hour and a half left at work then tomorrow is Pathfinder and the season finale! Just sad how long I'll have to wait til next season, probably have to re-read the books during the downtime.
EDIT: Qarth is across the Red Waste, look at how bad of shape the tiny Khalasar was in, and then imagine trying to have enough supplies for one thousands of times larger... The other cities were just closer and easier to threaten would be my guess.
This and the wall, Qarth's wall is supposed to be very strong. And the dothraki can't really siege them because Qarth is a port and they don't have ships.
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Qarth is in the middle of no where, so the Dothraki would have to set up a siege on Qarth...which wouldn't really be that great since the Dothraki would starve, not the Qarthians. And transporting siege weapons or building siege weapons across the Red Waste would suck too.
...and how the fuck are you gonna fuck with the warlock guy.
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On June 03 2012 12:21 Critter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 12:04 Kukaracha wrote:
As I said, a phalanx would simply crumble under the Dothraki arrows just like Roman legions were decimated by Attila's horde. Why? Because the infantry here is defending something. They are seeking a confrontation while the Dothraki can simply move on, much faster. Horsement are never forced to fight in any spot, to the contrary of infantry (and the macedonian phalanax had no mobility at all, which is why it disappeared).
I mean, history has spoken : Attila alone caused massive barbarian migrations and was never severly defeated. His expansion was stopped by his death. Aetius' army, after gathering a wide number of barbarians and romans alike, only managed to inflict a small loss to the Mongolian war machine.
And about that crossing, well, Stannis managed to put 100 000 men on boats, nothing stops the Dothraki doing the same. Of course, the whole fleet could sink but it's a matter of luck, it's like saying that the Spanish invicile armada couldn't defeat England just because of the massive storm that destroyed part of it in 1588. Luck. The way the show portrayed it, that last part is probably close to accurate, although he had lost all of the men from the Reach when the Tyrells left. He put the Stormlanders on his boats (with no horses, mind you) and sailed up the coast, not across the Sea. Also, the Westerosi don't have to rely on the luck of storm to scatter the theoretical Dothraki fleet, they could simply bring to bear their warships and do significant damage before they were ever allowed to land. This is Westeros, 7 kingdoms under 1 rule. I firmly believe they would have more war capable ships than the Dothraki could hope to buy from the Free Cities.
Would you really say that Westeros is 7 kingdoms under 1 rule right now? The north and the riverlands are in open defiance to the crown, as are the stormlands. The Eyrie likely wouldn't send any troops, and Dorne has remained neutral. The only allies the crown could hope to rally to help defend against an invasion are those allied with Highgarden. While formidable, it's hardly the unified forces of the 7 kingdoms.
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Well at the time of Drogo, the 7 Kingdoms were united though right? And even though it was shaky at the time of Drogo, I'm sure they would band together to try to drive off the Dothraki, then go back to incest and trying to get the throne.
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On June 03 2012 14:57 Whole wrote:
Well at the time of Drogo, the 7 Kingdoms were united though right? And even though it was shaky at the time of Drogo, I'm sure they would band together to try to drive off the Dothraki, then go back to incest and trying to get the throne.
This, which was what I proposed when I first started this particular discussion (it's several pages back, so i'm not surprised you didn't see it). The whole thing was over the alternate theory of Varys' intentions that I had at this point in the series. Assassinate Dany to provoke Drogo into crossing the Narrow Sea which would force the 7 kingdoms back into some form of unity. The realm would bleed a lot less (in my estimation) crushing this invasion than it would in it's current civil war. Unfortunately, Drogo dies and powder keg goes off. But again, this was all just an alternate theory to strike up a discussion.
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On June 03 2012 14:51 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 12:21 Critter wrote:On June 03 2012 12:04 Kukaracha wrote:
As I said, a phalanx would simply crumble under the Dothraki arrows just like Roman legions were decimated by Attila's horde. Why? Because the infantry here is defending something. They are seeking a confrontation while the Dothraki can simply move on, much faster. Horsement are never forced to fight in any spot, to the contrary of infantry (and the macedonian phalanax had no mobility at all, which is why it disappeared).
I mean, history has spoken : Attila alone caused massive barbarian migrations and was never severly defeated. His expansion was stopped by his death. Aetius' army, after gathering a wide number of barbarians and romans alike, only managed to inflict a small loss to the Mongolian war machine.
And about that crossing, well, Stannis managed to put 100 000 men on boats, nothing stops the Dothraki doing the same. Of course, the whole fleet could sink but it's a matter of luck, it's like saying that the Spanish invicile armada couldn't defeat England just because of the massive storm that destroyed part of it in 1588. Luck. The way the show portrayed it, that last part is probably close to accurate, although he had lost all of the men from the Reach when the Tyrells left. He put the Stormlanders on his boats (with no horses, mind you) and sailed up the coast, not across the Sea. Also, the Westerosi don't have to rely on the luck of storm to scatter the theoretical Dothraki fleet, they could simply bring to bear their warships and do significant damage before they were ever allowed to land. This is Westeros, 7 kingdoms under 1 rule. I firmly believe they would have more war capable ships than the Dothraki could hope to buy from the Free Cities. Would you really say that Westeros is 7 kingdoms under 1 rule right now? The north and the riverlands are in open defiance to the crown, as are the stormlands. The Eyrie likely wouldn't send any troops, and Dorne has remained neutral. The only allies the crown could hope to rally to help defend against an invasion are those allied with Highgarden. While formidable, it's hardly the unified forces of the 7 kingdoms.
What is it Jorah said "Nothing unites a kingdom faster than an invading army on its soil".
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The sheer logistics of the invasion are enough to make anyone doubt any chance of Doth'raki success.
As far as I know, the Doth'raki are incapable of besieging a large castle or city. They would be forced to raid and pillage the countryside and eventually their manpower would dwindle because their cultural differences would make it nearly impossible to gain any new recruits, reinforcements, or mercenary support once they were in Westeros.
This is just assuming a Westerosi army wouldn't be able to defeat them in battle in the first place. Even if the Westerosi army couldn't directly engage the invading force immediately, all Robert would have to do is wait and bide time for the attrition to kick in as mentioned above.
Also, I'm not sure how large Drogo's khalisar was in Season 1, but I'm almost certain the Reach (Tyrells) alone could raise an army of the same size or larger (I think they said they fielded one hundred thousand soldiers somewhere in season 2). The Dothraki wouldn't have to just beat one Westerosi army, but several.
TL;DR: I don't think the Doth'raki would have stood a chance had Drogo's khalisar crossed the narrow sea to invade Westeros. They literally have no advantage, Westeros would have attrition advantage, numerical advantage, technological advantage, probably a leadership advantage if they had put someone like Tywin in charge, defenders advantage in knowledge of the land, the list probably goes on and on...
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It isn't 40k warriors that is the scary part. It is 40k horsemen. Horsemen are known to demolish infantry armies... and you would have to assume their horsemen are better trained than Westeros horsemen. Thus, doing anything but sitting in castles with archers could be especially lethal.
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I'm not sure. True that Westoros would have had some advantages but the Dothraki are brutally good warriors and outnumber their foe heavily as well.
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so the finale is tonight right? any speculation on what might happen? I think daenyrs is going to go into the house of the undying and get her shit slapped, Theon is going to spank his sister, and Tywin is going to spank Joffrey. Sideways.
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On June 03 2012 20:29 Incognoto wrote:
I'm not sure. True that Westoros would have had some advantages but the Dothraki are brutally good warriors and outnumber their foe heavily as well.
Their swords don't stand a chance against armored foes tho.
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On June 02 2012 20:54 Azera wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 20:50 Blacktion wrote:On June 02 2012 19:08 Kukaracha wrote:On June 02 2012 11:19 Critter wrote:
100k was the entire Khalasar, the fighters were about 40k. Even if they magically got the entire 40k across the sea at the same time without losing a ship and were able to land at the same place, that still just 40k horsemen. The Reach and part of the Stormlands fielded 100k fighters for Renly, 20k a piece for the Starks/Lannisters, unknown for the Riverlands since they were essentially surprise attacked, unknown for the Vale and Dorne as well. Against the 100k Dothraki fighters Robert thought had they might have had trouble, against 40k (again, if they even all made it) I think they'd have had them put down pretty easily. This was mentioned in the show, and it was clear for those talking about it (the Council I believe) that any army would flat out lose if they fought the Dothraki in the open. To imagine that armies would come together to defend Westeros is to believe that they can organize themselves, move the troops and set up the logistics for such a huge force before the Dothrakis even cross the sea; not forgetting that even then, we are talking about 40 000 elite horsemen against mostly feudal rag-tag armies. No matter what, the Dothraki in Westeros was very bad news. The dothraki come from a place where its hot as fuck. Then dothraki wouldnt be able to deal with the winter at all. They would freeze, horses would freeze, no food available because the harvests are done and all the food it stored in the keeps. Even the westerosi know not to move big armies in winter. The Dothraki land in westeros now and it would be a fucking disaster for Dany. Even if some of the south joins them they cant take the cities without seige weapons, they will starve before the defenders as all the cities are stocked for a 7 year winter, and they will never get deep into the north because of the cold. Bad news for westeros sure, worse news for the dothraki. I've never considered Winter when thinking about how Dany was going to invade Westeros with the Dothraki. I can't wait to see what happens with all dem + Show Spoiler + and stuff!
Dont worry bro, not considering winter seems to happen alot to the best conquerors.
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On June 03 2012 14:24 TeePee wrote:
How come Drogo's Khalasar never sacked Qarth? Qarth give enough gifts? or is Qarth able to fend off a Khalasar.
If we continue the anology with mongols, the mongol horde under Genghis khan and his descendants practically didn't lose a battle for almost hundred years, but it is important to note that they could NOT take a walled city until they learned siege warfare from the Chinese, and even then the most fortified cities (beijing is a good example) took years of starving them out to take. We have not seen anything suggesting the Dothraki excel at siege warfare, and as both Kingslanding and Qarth have sea trade (and the Dothraki would not be able to set up a sea blockade) they would not likely starve for a long long time.
They probalby have not sacked Qarth because they can't.
Qarth walls didn't seem easily scalable by ladders though, (Beijing definitely couldn't be taken by simply putting up a ladder and start climbing, the king first) Kingslanding apparently can. And a good ram would not batter down the gate of Qarth in minutes.
Even if we assume the Dothraki could safely land the entire khalasar in Westeros, I don't know if they would win. Grazing would be a problem for them probably. But they also seem to fight naked, and they would be tremendously wurnerable to archery (generally foot archers can achieve greater range than horse archers) fire because of it.
It's a pointless discussion, but an interesting one, I think 
On June 03 2012 20:40 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 20:29 Incognoto wrote:
I'm not sure. True that Westoros would have had some advantages but the Dothraki are brutally good warriors and outnumber their foe heavily as well. Their swords don't stand a chance against armored foes tho.
Hardly all of the westerosi warriors have plaitmail like Jorah Mormont =P And even if they did, generally what you do to a heavily armed foe on foot when you have horses is you batter them down with hour upon hour of arrow fire. Then they die.
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On June 03 2012 20:40 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 20:29 Incognoto wrote:
I'm not sure. True that Westoros would have had some advantages but the Dothraki are brutally good warriors and outnumber their foe heavily as well. Their swords don't stand a chance against armored foes tho.
If you look back at history, when Mongols conquered European armies, the European armies had heavily armored gear while the Mongols wore light armor. But it allowed them to out-manuveur and used their arrows to rain down on European armies. There's more info about it on the net, look it up. I'm just saying that better armored soldiers don't mean better combat.
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There something I don't quite get on the last few episodes.
What is this brotherhood thing Lord Tywin is talking about ?
Why is he hanging men from his own army ? He says that someone tried to kill him, when was that ? When Ser Amory Loch was killed by Jaqen H'ghar ?
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EPT
