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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
United States43971 Posts
On May 24 2016 06:52 solidbebe wrote:
You guys are talking like you've figured out how real world time travel would work. How can you get mad at someone for 'not getting' your explanation, when there is no actual consensus on the solution for a time paradox.
Because how Bran's power works isn't particularly confusing, at least for me. I'm not mad at him but it's like he keeps repeating that 0.999 recurring cannot equal 1 because of the 0.0 recurring 1 difference and we're all going "it doesn't work like that".
It just don't work like that. He can either understand how it works or he can not understand and move on but he keeps coming back to this first time problem which isn't a problem.
Maybe it'd help to imagine Bran as being unable to interact with the past beyond seeing the changes that he already made to the past. When Bran goes back he's not exactly a free agent, he does change what happens but only in the ways that he had already done "the first time around" to ensure that the timeline ended up exactly where it now is.
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Of course no one knows how "real time travel" would work. The best we can is explain things in a way that is consistent with what we've seen on the show. Other shows/books might have different rules.
The implication of what we've seen is that destiny is a thing, for some characters at least. Bran was destined to go back in time and mess up Hodor's mind. It's not so useful here to think about it as time travel in the usual sci-fi sense. It's just one self-consistent story, where (as someone else explained) different points in time overlap.
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Ofc it is confusing because our brain isn't really meant to understand it. In our daily live time is linear, in our daily live you aren't able to drink the wine before the grapes grew.
We simply have to buy that logic right now, is it realistic? Who knows really?
That's also the reason people dislike time travel as a plot device, it destroys our understanding of day to day live.
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On May 24 2016 06:56 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:52 solidbebe wrote:
You guys are talking like you've figured out how real world time travel would work. How can you get mad at someone for 'not getting' your explanation, when there is no actual consensus on the solution for a time paradox. Because how Bran's power works isn't particularly confusing, at least for me. I'm not mad at him but it's like he keeps repeating that 0.999 recurring cannot equal 1 because of the 0.0 recurring 1 difference and we're all going "it doesn't work like that". It just don't work like that. He can either understand how it works or he can not understand and move on but he keeps coming back to this first time problem which isn't a problem. Maybe it'd help to imagine Bran as being unable to interact with the past beyond seeing the changes that he already made to the past. When Bran goes back he's not exactly a free agent, he does change what happens but only in the ways that he had already done "the first time around" to ensure that the timeline ended up exactly where it now is.
When you try to bring reality into it and timelines, there are always preceding events with the possible exception of the beginning of time itself. You can slow down (maybe even stop) or speed up time, but it always marches forward. It does not all exist at once. Although I think we're starting to get into a pretty deep philosophical/theoretical scientific debate and is probably outside the scope of this thread.
I think you're better off just saying "it's magic" and it doesn't have to make sense. I'd accept that... I'm watching a fantasy story anyways and some things should not be overthought.
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Here's a way to understand it that doesn't involve any time travel:
Wyllis has a mental breakdown as a kid. No one knows why. Maybe he had a seizure. Who knows why he kept repeating "hold the door." Lot's of people have mental breakdowns. Bran had absolutely nothing to do with it. He hasn't even been born yet.
Many years later, Bran is having a vision about how Wyllis broke down. He is simply an observer. He cannot influence things. Wyllis dies holding the door shortly after. Super coincidental, but plausible.
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United States43971 Posts
On May 24 2016 07:13 RenSC2 wrote:
When you try to bring reality into it and timelines, there are always preceding events with the possible exception of the beginning of time itself. You can slow down (maybe even stop) or speed up time, but it always marches forward. It does not all exist at once.
You just don't get it. And that's okay. But please stop trying.
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Maybe Hodor hacked the future/had a prophecy. Maybe this and Bran going back are synonymous.
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Funny, I just came across this on cracked:
+ Show Spoiler +
I get how the scene with Wylis/Hodor works, but that doesn't make it not a paradox. If it were so simple then theologeans wouldn't still be arguing things like free will under an omniscient-omnipotent deity. I know that's not a perfect fit for the scene at hand, but it's the closest I can think of.
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Wow. Okay, so let's talk time travel.
Disclaimer: I haven't done real time travel.
But that's ok because I read stories and there are a few sets of ideas about how time travel could work:
Multiverse: Every possible eventuality splits the universe into different parallel universes. This is the way time travel is hinted to work in Star Trek TNG where suddenly tons of enterprises start showing up, with Picard gone from most of them (because in most universes he bites it/get assimilated).
Branching timelines: Multiple universes are created whenever an act of time-travel occurs. The old universe keeps doing its thing, and the new universe goes on based on the "change" made in the past. But the "change" is not really a change as much as a new universe being created.
Subtypes:
Return Impossible: Make a new universe, that's your universe. Go back and make a new one if you want a new one, but there's no going back to a previous universe.
Return Possible: You can go back to an old universe. In some versions of this, you actually replace the old you in that universe. More common the softer you go, since it makes for good dramatic reveals, but is unrigorouus.
Changable mono-reality: Sort of like a Return Impossible Branching, but in this case there is a single "true" reality... the old universes cease to exist. This is the kind of time travel assumed by many posters here. It is not how GoT works. Terminator works like this except in the first movie.
Subtypes:
Change anything: Good luck!
Timecop: You can only change so much. The universe is elastic and will try to snap back, so that your actions might change 50 years, but 500 down the line it would have evened out somehow. The universe appears to by trying to undo your interference.
Fixed Points: Some things are set in stone. Cannot be changed. Sorry. But you can change other things. Dr. Who is like this. Catholic free will is sorta like this too (some things ordained by God, other things changeable)
Predestination: What happened happened. The universe is a 4 dimensional object and any changes made in the past are already present in the future, since you already did them. Think about a book. The reader can flip from page 100 to 5 and back, experiencing both as present, because they are all fixed part of the story. Characters have agency within their world... but their outcome is also predetermined. Free will is more about not knowing what you'll do next. See this in The Terminator, Game of Thrones, Watchmen, etc. Calvinism and most forms of Islam assume some version of this worldview.
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So i usually dont post about GoT because i never felt the reason to.
But god damn it. Why kill Hold the Door you assholes
(also am i the only one that thinks that Brans direwolf and that Child of the Forest girl died without any real reason exepct to make ti even more dramatic?)
Edit: Also that was like the worst possible way to show the origins of the white walkers in my eyes
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On May 24 2016 07:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 07:13 RenSC2 wrote:
When you try to bring reality into it and timelines, there are always preceding events with the possible exception of the beginning of time itself. You can slow down (maybe even stop) or speed up time, but it always marches forward. It does not all exist at once. You just don't get it. And that's okay. But please stop trying.
Just to get one of the usual paradoxes out the way:
The usual paradox for example would be me traveling back in time killing my own father resulting in me never being born. Me never being born would result in me not being able to travel back in time to kill my father as I would not have existed.
What you are saying that Bran actually has no power but visions from the past - so he is a silent bystander , he can watch but he cannot change because it has already happened? I think what he doesnt understand and frankly me neither 100% is what did actually trigger the breakdown of Hodor if Bran doesnt have the ability to change or influence things in his visions.
just trying to get a hold of it D;
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On May 24 2016 08:25 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 07:26 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2016 07:13 RenSC2 wrote:
When you try to bring reality into it and timelines, there are always preceding events with the possible exception of the beginning of time itself. You can slow down (maybe even stop) or speed up time, but it always marches forward. It does not all exist at once. You just don't get it. And that's okay. But please stop trying. Just to get one of the usual paradoxes out the way: The usual paradox for example would be me traveling back in time killing my own father resulting in me never being born. Me never being born would result in me not being able to travel back in time to kill my father as I would not have existed. What you are saying that Bran actually has no power but visions from the past - so he is a silent bystander , he can watch but he cannot change because it has already happened? I think what he doesnt understand and frankly me neither 100% is what did actually trigger the breakdown of Hodor if Bran doesnt have the ability to change or influence things in his visions. just trying to get a hold of it D;
The idea is that Bran does influence the event. He always did though, Hodor becoming Hodor always happened that way.
Your normal day to day live understanding of time (it's linear) doesn't apply here. It's normal that this seems weird to you, it's simply another take on the whole thing.
On May 24 2016 08:23 BlackCompany wrote:
So i usually dont post about GoT because i never felt the reason to.
But god damn it. Why kill Hold the Door you assholes
(also am i the only one that thinks that Brans direwolf and that Child of the Forest girl died without any real reason exepct to make ti even more dramatic?)
Edit: Also that was like the worst possible way to show the origins of the white walkers in my eyes
Could you elaborate on the last bit? If you mean that it was rushed then yes i agree with you.
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I really hated the time travel stuff. It always always ALWAYS messes up the whole story.
Remember when the show Heroes started and it was covert, mysterious and exciting, for a couple of episodes. Then Hiro could time travel and everything was shit. Utter shit. Nothing made sense, and all the other powers devaluated, and suddenly everyone had abilities and it basically turned into Fantastic 4 (which also sucked).
Maybe it's inevitable and it happens with every show. But I remember when the White Walkers and Wights were scary af. Now they're just dark Jedi knights with blue contacts.
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On May 24 2016 08:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 08:25 NarutO wrote:On May 24 2016 07:26 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2016 07:13 RenSC2 wrote:
When you try to bring reality into it and timelines, there are always preceding events with the possible exception of the beginning of time itself. You can slow down (maybe even stop) or speed up time, but it always marches forward. It does not all exist at once. You just don't get it. And that's okay. But please stop trying. Just to get one of the usual paradoxes out the way: The usual paradox for example would be me traveling back in time killing my own father resulting in me never being born. Me never being born would result in me not being able to travel back in time to kill my father as I would not have existed. What you are saying that Bran actually has no power but visions from the past - so he is a silent bystander , he can watch but he cannot change because it has already happened? I think what he doesnt understand and frankly me neither 100% is what did actually trigger the breakdown of Hodor if Bran doesnt have the ability to change or influence things in his visions. just trying to get a hold of it D; The idea is that Bran does influence the event. He always did though, Hodor becoming Hodor always happened that way. Your normal day to day live understanding of time (it's linear) doesn't apply here. It's normal that this seems weird to you, it's simply another take on the whole thing. Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 08:23 BlackCompany wrote:
So i usually dont post about GoT because i never felt the reason to.
But god damn it. Why kill Hold the Door you assholes
(also am i the only one that thinks that Brans direwolf and that Child of the Forest girl died without any real reason exepct to make ti even more dramatic?)
Edit: Also that was like the worst possible way to show the origins of the white walkers in my eyes Could you elaborate on the last bit? If you mean that it was rushed then yes i agree with you.
Ya i felt it was super rushed.
"here let me put this stone in your chest aaaaaand you are a walker". At least that's how it felt. I mean maybe there will be more context soon when they have some time to relax after the upcoming chase so Bran can confront her and she will tell the entire story. But otherwise that's a pretty weak explanation.
Though i'm not a ahuge fan of the Children of the Forest creating Walkers to begin with. I'd prefer if they created some kind of early Walker that evolved/got changed and the became like they are now. Maybe that will also be explained^^
I mean if the Children of the Forest own magic that could create undead ice monsters that can reanimate other dead persons and are super hard to kill then i dont see how they could loose the war vs the humans in the first place
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"she" is already dead though 
But yeah i agree, it felt extremely rushed especially because afaik the show didn't really tell us a whole lot of the cotf in the first place. I hope the show will actually explain it a bit more, but i won't hold my breath because i think it mainly tries to advance the plot right now, not much time for worldbuilding.
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uOn May 24 2016 08:46 The_Red_Viper wrote:"she" is already dead though But yeah i agree, it felt extremely rushed especially because afaik the show didn't really tell us a whole lot of the cotf in the first place. I hope the show will actually explain it a bit more, but i won't hold my breath because i think it mainly tries to advance the plot right now, not much time for worldbuilding.
Ah yeah lol, i mixed her up with the human girl.
well thats super disappointing tbh. Gonna be hard to get a reasonable explanation then.
But i guess Bran can timetravel so he can check out what he wants
Ya advancing the plot is going to happen and thats good. Unless they make huge time jumps they will have to put a lot of content in the last 1,5 seasons i guess. Next episode probably going to center on Kings Landing a lot. I wanna see the Tyrells get fucked by either the High Sparrow or the Lannisters^^
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United States43971 Posts
The time travel rules are basically as follows. When visiting the past you can take no actions save the actions which must inevitably lead you to your current situation and those actions you must take. In practice you do whatever the fuck you like in the past because whatever the fuck you like were the actions that led you here.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: You mustn't interfere with the past. Don't do anything that affects anything. Unless it turns out that you were supposed to do it; in which case, for the love of God, don't not do it!
Fry: Got it.
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I dont mind time travel as long as it does not lead to super cheesy endings where someone goes back in time, does a thing or two and suddenly Ned and Robb and everyone is back alive and they lived happily ever after.
But that would not be GRRM so we are safe.
Plus since i neither know nor care about time travel i dont even know if thats possible (i suppose talking about realism in time teavel is kind of akward anyway haha)
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This is how I see time travel. DC's legends of Tomorrow explained it best. One of the characters went back in time and stole a jewel his father got caught trying to steal in the past and gave it to his dad to try and keep him out of jail. Shortly after the father gets arrested for trying to sell the jewel to an undercover cop and gets a life sentence anyways. Guy grows up while his dad is in jail for life.
Time wants to happen. It doesn't want to change. It is linear and the ability to travel through time wouldn't change anything because events would happen to make history happen despite your effort.
Example: Travel back in time and shoot Hitler. That would be the catalyst for WW2, someone just like him replaces him and we get WW2 as it happened anyways. Holocaust, crazy campaigns, D-Day, Pearl Harbour. It all happens anyways. The name of the villain changes, the reason it all started changes. But nothing meaningful changed.
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On May 24 2016 09:10 BlackCompany wrote:
I dont mind time travel as long as it does not lead to super cheesy endings where someone goes back in time, does a thing or two and suddenly Ned and Robb and everyone is back alive and they lived happily ever after.
But that would not be GRRM so we are safe.
Plus since i neither know nor care about time travel i dont even know if thats possible (i suppose talking about realism in time teavel is kind of akward anyway haha)
Time travel is a narrative device to allow him to explain the history of the world he created without long exposition on the topic. Its show, don't tell. Bran learned this episode the terrifying nature of his power and how much harm is can do.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/5/4/8/541548_v1.jpg)
