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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Holy shit, was this episode bad. The writing was attrocious and special effects looked like something Rodrigez and Tarantino would make while making a spoof of classic B-list horror movies.
So apparently to become a king of ironborn you just have to say you will build a thousand ships (not sure why they didn't make them sooner, because I got the impression he expects to have them in one to two weeks time) and that you will sail across the world and marry/rape/capture daenerys.
Also, children turning First Men into whitewalkers seems to have been a briliant defensive plan since they got absolutely slaughtered by the same white walkers. Which seem to be haning right around the place the greenseer was or they also travel at speed of light.
and now Sansa will travel from Wall to riverrun in 2 days time, give or take one.
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I think you are over complicating it. Each moment in time only happens once. It's written and from then on is only read only (unchanging).
Bran can travel in time and take part in writing that moment of history, but he's never changing it from what it always was.
The three eyed raven and Bran are different people. They'll never literally become one another. Bran is just presumably going to assume the same responsibilities as the three eye raven had.
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Bran did not change the past.
Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today.
From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons 
As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?"
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On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?"
You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p.
I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution...
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On May 24 2016 04:06 TaKeTV wrote:
Just to clear up things - if Bran for example would have been killed now - Hodor wouldn't have been Hodor so he actually had to "influence" the past to create the current future in terms of time-travel? Also - if he is the three eyed raven - why isnt he as old as him? Because the time he should have lived should be the same up to that point?
So if you have to become me is LITERAL and you have to get stuck in the past if you stay too long it could be that the three eyed raven actually experienced it (getting stuck) and lived there to g uide the young bran - ? ? Am I getting all mixed out?
Loops, time paradoc, infinite loops closed loops... help me :_(
Incidently, this was the 30,000th post of this thread
I like numbers
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On May 24 2016 04:35 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?" You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p. I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution...
Its magic and doesn’t obey rules. Attempts to confine magic in the GoT world to scientific rule sets will only end in failure. It gives no shits about paradoxes.
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On May 24 2016 04:28 Odoakar wrote:
Holy shit, was this episode bad. The writing was attrocious and special effects looked like something Rodrigez and Tarantino would make while making a spoof of classic B-list horror movies.
So apparently to become a king of ironborn you just have to say you will build a thousand ships (not sure why they didn't make them sooner, because I got the impression he expects to have them in one to two weeks time) and that you will sail across the world and marry/rape/capture daenerys.
The majority if the ironborn were super sceptical of her from the start, you had the majority of the men cheering for a castrated, broken, provenly incompetent king over her up until he threw his support behind his sister. And then they just had literally nobody else to choose from.
Like he said, everyone had clearly hated how stupid the old king had become, and Yara had not only spent the last X years supporting and enabling the old king, but was also a woman. Literally anyone else who had even a vague claim would have beaten her out for it. (Look how easily theon could have taken it, despite being completely incompetent in about 50 ways.) And it just so happened that the previous kings brother strolled up at the right time.
Also, children turning First Men into whitewalkers seems to have been a briliant defensive plan since they got absolutely slaughtered by the same white walkers.
We don't know any of the intervening story... That probably happened hundreds of years before at least, and who knows what happened between then and now.
Maybe they created too strong a weapon which turned against them.
Maybe whoever was leading the humans against the CoF used some magic to release the white walkers from their control, or corrupted them somehow.
Maybe the children of the forest even turned on the white walkers for whatever reason after defeating the humans. Who knows.
Seems super premature to complain about something we know literally nothing about, without even trying a little independent thought first...
Which seem to be haning right around the place the greenseer was or they also travel at speed of light.
and now Sansa will travel from Wall to riverrun in 2 days time, give or take one.
These complaints I just don't get... Some examples are obviously a bit over the top, like the sand snakes teleporting onto a boat, but for the most part, do you really want this show to turn into the walking dead where 90% of the episode is just people walking somewhere?
Just assume some time has passed and they didn't feel the need to destroy the flow of the show by filming every second of it to satisfy people sitting there counting minutes in an excel document... srsly...
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On May 24 2016 04:35 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?" You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p. I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution...
I don't get the question?
It doesn't start, it always was. Whether the character comes from the future or from somewhere in the past they're there at that moment in a way that's not really different than any other character being there. Like asking "What if Bran didn't go back or died before going back?" is the same as asking "What if Cat hadn't traveled down to King's Landing?" the whole story (timeline) would be different.
It's only a bit weird if a character knows ahead of time that they're supposed to be somewhere at a certain time and already know the outcome of their being there. In Bran's case he had no idea and isn't even fully there. It's likely we won't really see him exert much influence on other events considering the trauma he caused.
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On May 24 2016 04:58 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:35 Wuster wrote:On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?" You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p. I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution... I don't get the question? It doesn't start, it always was. Whether the character comes from the future or from somewhere in the past they're there at that moment in a way that's not really different than any other character being there. Like asking "What if Bran didn't go back or died before going back?" is the same as asking "What if Cat hadn't traveled down to King's Landing?" the whole story (timeline) would be different. It's only a bit weird if a character knows ahead of time that they're supposed to be somewhere at a certain time and already know the outcome of their being there. In Bran's case he had no idea and isn't even fully there. It's likely we won't really see him exert much influence on other events considering the trauma he caused.
If he for example now decided to go back to right that moment and not pick hodor but another character, wouldnt that be possible? Would that change the current situation? Another future? :D
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On May 24 2016 05:05 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:58 Logo wrote:On May 24 2016 04:35 Wuster wrote:On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?" You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p. I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution... I don't get the question? It doesn't start, it always was. Whether the character comes from the future or from somewhere in the past they're there at that moment in a way that's not really different than any other character being there. Like asking "What if Bran didn't go back or died before going back?" is the same as asking "What if Cat hadn't traveled down to King's Landing?" the whole story (timeline) would be different. It's only a bit weird if a character knows ahead of time that they're supposed to be somewhere at a certain time and already know the outcome of their being there. In Bran's case he had no idea and isn't even fully there. It's likely we won't really see him exert much influence on other events considering the trauma he caused. If he for example now decided to go back to right that moment and not pick hodor but another character, wouldnt that be possible? Would that change the current situation? Another future? :D
No. He always was going to do that. He doesn't get a choice. There was no way for him to avoid that, even if he knew.
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On May 24 2016 05:05 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:58 Logo wrote:On May 24 2016 04:35 Wuster wrote:On May 24 2016 04:32 malcram wrote:Bran did not change the past. Hodor's past: This episode's Bran WAS there. Tried to warg it up, messed up Hodor, and Hodor continues till present day. We just didn't know that until today. From season 1 till now was just Bran eventually fulfilling that. Had we known that, we'd know that Bran had some unbreakable plot armor for the first 5 seasons As many others have pointed out, "what else had Bran already done?" You didn't know Bran had plot armor earlier? I mean why else would we be following someone leave the main plot for so long =p. I've read the stable time loop stuff, but I don't think that's a fully satisfying answer. A time loop is a time paradox after all, how does it start? Ect. Sometimes it can be fun like in Futurama, but usually it just turns into a mess. But at least Futurama has shown me that it's possible to make it work in a satisfying resolution... I don't get the question? It doesn't start, it always was. Whether the character comes from the future or from somewhere in the past they're there at that moment in a way that's not really different than any other character being there. Like asking "What if Bran didn't go back or died before going back?" is the same as asking "What if Cat hadn't traveled down to King's Landing?" the whole story (timeline) would be different. It's only a bit weird if a character knows ahead of time that they're supposed to be somewhere at a certain time and already know the outcome of their being there. In Bran's case he had no idea and isn't even fully there. It's likely we won't really see him exert much influence on other events considering the trauma he caused. If he for example now decided to go back to right that moment and not pick hodor but another character, wouldnt that be possible? Would that change the current situation? Another future? :D
If that was the case then it would have never been Hodor to begin with. If he chose Guy B instead the story would have always been Guy B.
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The guys responsible for localization must have nightmares regarding the hold the door - hodor transition. Nobody told them they should translate hodor beforehand.
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On May 24 2016 05:15 Caspas wrote:
The guys responsible for localization must have nightmares regarding the hold the door - hodor transition. Nobody told them they should translate hodor beforehand.
Even if they did you sort of can't. It'd give the ruse away for everyone very quickly.
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yea this kind of reveal can't possibly have played out in another language right? 'HODOR CIERRE LA PUERTA' or whatever 'hold' is instead.
Spanish viewers pls help
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On May 24 2016 05:19 brian wrote:
yea this kind of reveal can't possibly have played out in another language right? 'HODOR CIERRE LA PUERTA' or whatever 'hold' is instead.
Spanish viewers pls help
According to my spanish friend it went from dejolo cerador (keep it shut) which eventually turned to Jodor.
Also to anyone who actually speaks Spanish I have no idea how to spell those words and I am very sorry if I butchered it.
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the stable timeloop worked very well for tons of scifi books, its a very reasonable setting when it comes to timetravel.
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On May 24 2016 05:15 Caspas wrote:
The guys responsible for localization must have nightmares regarding the hold the door - hodor transition. Nobody told them they should translate hodor beforehand.
At least in german its pretty easy?
"Hold the Door" and "Halt das Tor" are not exactly far from each other.
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The problem I have with timetravelling in stories is:
A: Can you change the past in this universe?
B: If you cannot, does free will exist or is it all decided by destiny?
To me timetravelling as a concept is too incomprehensible. So I'll just put it together with magic and other fantasy elements, and just accept it for what it is and not try to understand it or explain it.
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United States41984 Posts
On May 24 2016 05:56 Tunkeg wrote:
The problem I have with timetravelling in stories is:
A: Can you change the past in this universe?
B: If you cannot, does free will exist or is it all decided by destiny?
To me timetravelling as a concept is too incomprehensible. So I'll just put it together with magic and other fantasy elements, and just accept it for what it is and not try to understand it or explain it.
Bran freely chose to do what he had always freely chosen to do and what he would always freely choose to do. If that makes sense. Imagine Bran as existing simultaneously at all moments in the past. Bran didn't go back to Hodor's childhood, Bran was already there and had always been there.
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On May 24 2016 05:34 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:19 brian wrote:
yea this kind of reveal can't possibly have played out in another language right? 'HODOR CIERRE LA PUERTA' or whatever 'hold' is instead.
Spanish viewers pls help According to my spanish friend it went from dejolo cerador (keep it shut) which eventually turned to Jodor. Also to anyone who actually speaks Spanish I have no idea how to spell those words and I am very sorry if I butchered it.
Pretty much all germanic languages can just directly translate "hold door" and turn that into hodor, and for the rest there's probably some relatively believable phrase that can be mangled into it.
I'm curious if they'll actually delve into how this form of "time travel" works, or if it'll be left as vague as much of the other magic is. Hopefully they at least explain the basic ground rules of how it works, similar to how we know the lord of light needs certain sacrifices, rather than leaving it completely opaque and never revisiting it.
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EPT
