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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 24 2016 01:40 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +
Was the rebellion justified? Or was it just Robert being a jealous dick (Lyanna not being kidnapped, but running away with Rhaegar)? In case did Ned know, and still proceeded supporting the rebellion? The way we were presented with this story from the start is through the eyes of Ned and Robert, who both claims Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. But we don't know if this is the correct version.
Even if the rebellion isn't justified for that reason the Mad King did kill Ned's father and brother in a quite dramatic and horrible way. There's room for moral ambiguity, especially on Robert's part, but it's pretty clear that at some point Ned was justified in standing up to the Mad King.
Yes, Ned was juistified for wanting to revenge his father and brother. And from the perspective we are served there is no reason to doubt it. But we haven't got the Targeryan version. Maybe the Mad King had some justification for executing Ned's father and brother. I might be reaching here, or just preparing myself for what I consider the worst case scenario, GRRM turning the Starks not only murdering the Starks but also turning them into THE bad guys.
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On May 24 2016 05:54 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:15 Caspas wrote:
The guys responsible for localization must have nightmares regarding the hold the door - hodor transition. Nobody told them they should translate hodor beforehand. At least in german its pretty easy? "Hold the Door" and "Halt das Tor" are not exactly far from each other.
Both languages being germanic help a lot 
With spanish is a nightmare; "sujeta la puerta > supuer .> supor > sudor > hudor > hodor" ??? xDDDD
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In spanish would be something like : Sostén la puerta (Sospuer), or aguanta la puerta (Agupuer), gl with both translations.
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On May 24 2016 06:05 haitike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:54 Velr wrote:On May 24 2016 05:15 Caspas wrote:
The guys responsible for localization must have nightmares regarding the hold the door - hodor transition. Nobody told them they should translate hodor beforehand. At least in german its pretty easy? "Hold the Door" and "Halt das Tor" are not exactly far from each other. Both languages being germanic help a lot With spanish is a nightmare; "sujeta la puerta > supuer .> supor > sudor > hudor > hodor" ??? xDDDD
Yeah, i just read a german here to think it would be a nightmare and read the same in a german forum and was like "wtf?" Its very easy in german.
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On May 24 2016 02:02 palexhur wrote:
In war theres not good and bad guys, the history is made by the victorious guys, thats all, there were always "good"motives to go into a war after you win.
I disagree. I don't think there are absolutes though. But that there are wars and conflicts were one or some of the sides are more good I wholeheartedly believe. The problem though is as you say, the victors write the history, so we don't necessarily know the truth, but still this doesn't mean that one or more sides were more good.
And in a fantasy setting the truth will be known by the author so if he chooses to reveal it he can tell us who is more good and who is more bad.
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To the Spanish speakers, how good is Drazerk's (friend's) Spanish?
On May 24 2016 05:34 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:19 brian wrote:
yea this kind of reveal can't possibly have played out in another language right? 'HODOR CIERRE LA PUERTA' or whatever 'hold' is instead.
Spanish viewers pls help According to my spanish friend it went from dejolo cerador (keep it shut) which eventually turned to Jodor. Also to anyone who actually speaks Spanish I have no idea how to spell those words and I am very sorry if I butchered it.
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On May 24 2016 06:04 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 01:40 Logo wrote:
Was the rebellion justified? Or was it just Robert being a jealous dick (Lyanna not being kidnapped, but running away with Rhaegar)? In case did Ned know, and still proceeded supporting the rebellion? The way we were presented with this story from the start is through the eyes of Ned and Robert, who both claims Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. But we don't know if this is the correct version.
Even if the rebellion isn't justified for that reason the Mad King did kill Ned's father and brother in a quite dramatic and horrible way. There's room for moral ambiguity, especially on Robert's part, but it's pretty clear that at some point Ned was justified in standing up to the Mad King. Yes, Ned was juistified for wanting to revenge his father and brother. And from the perspective we are served there is no reason to doubt it. But we haven't got the Targeryan version. Maybe the Mad King had some justification for executing Ned's father and brother. I might be reaching here, or just preparing myself for what I consider the worst case scenario, GRRM turning the Starks not only murdering the Starks but also turning them into THE bad guys.
Ned's sonbrother tried to threaten and fight Rheagar (for the "kidnapping" of Lyanna), but Rheagar wasn't at Kings Landing so he didn't actually threaten anyone. There's no reason for extending the punishment onto Ned's father or the brutal method of killing them.
(fixed son -> brother).
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On May 24 2016 06:12 Wuster wrote:To the Spanish speakers, how good is Drazerk's (friend's) Spanish? Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:34 Drazerk wrote:On May 24 2016 05:19 brian wrote:
yea this kind of reveal can't possibly have played out in another language right? 'HODOR CIERRE LA PUERTA' or whatever 'hold' is instead.
Spanish viewers pls help According to my spanish friend it went from dejolo cerador (keep it shut) which eventually turned to Jodor. Also to anyone who actually speaks Spanish I have no idea how to spell those words and I am very sorry if I butchered it.
It is: dejala cerrada (keep it shut), so no way.
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It is fine compared with others:
déjala cerrada -> jada -> jodor (Spanish "j" is the most similar sound to english "h" of the language)
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The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
I thought the scene was quite moving (one of the most moving in the entire show), but I don't like that it opened up time travel. Remote viewing of the past is fine, but altering it creates too many headaches. I would have rather that Hodor was trying to hold a door in the past and failed (and got his head cracked for his failure) and then play it side by side with him holding the door to the cave and successfully holding it long enough for Meera and Bran to escape.... although I wonder how Meera will be able to escape the undead while dragging Bran. Either that's going to be the next plot hole or someone else will show up to help (Benjen!).
As for the rest, the Kingsmoot was poor, but the aftermath was reasonably good.
Sansa continues to be an idiot. Even if she didn't want to tell the other members at the meeting, she should have pulled Jon aside later and told him. Her stupidity seems to be in-character though.
Daenerys still sucks at acting.
Arya's story just doesn't seem to be well paced and no watcher really believes she became no-one despite the amount of time they've spent on it.
Still interested to see what will happen in Mereen.
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On May 24 2016 06:14 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:04 Tunkeg wrote:On May 24 2016 01:40 Logo wrote:
Was the rebellion justified? Or was it just Robert being a jealous dick (Lyanna not being kidnapped, but running away with Rhaegar)? In case did Ned know, and still proceeded supporting the rebellion? The way we were presented with this story from the start is through the eyes of Ned and Robert, who both claims Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. But we don't know if this is the correct version.
Even if the rebellion isn't justified for that reason the Mad King did kill Ned's father and brother in a quite dramatic and horrible way. There's room for moral ambiguity, especially on Robert's part, but it's pretty clear that at some point Ned was justified in standing up to the Mad King. Yes, Ned was juistified for wanting to revenge his father and brother. And from the perspective we are served there is no reason to doubt it. But we haven't got the Targeryan version. Maybe the Mad King had some justification for executing Ned's father and brother. I might be reaching here, or just preparing myself for what I consider the worst case scenario, GRRM turning the Starks not only murdering the Starks but also turning them into THE bad guys. Ned's son tried to threaten and fight Rheagar (for the "kidnapping" of Lyanna), but Rheagar wasn't at Kings Landing so he didn't actually threaten anyone. There's no reason for extending the punishment onto Ned's father or the brutal method of killing them.
Ned's brother btw, and since we haven't actually seen this in the show, it's mostly from dvd extras with Robert / Stannis / Viserys / Tywin / Littlefinger / Varys narrating their (biased) recollections:
+ Show Spoiler +
There's a couple more that were added from Magaery, Catelyn and Oberon too if people want to go down this rabbit hole.
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Hah whoops, thanks for pointing that out Wuster.
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On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense though. Why does Bran have to get to Bloodraven without Hodor? Hodor is there. If Bran had to get to Bloodraven without Hodor the entire timeline would be different.
The starting point is the start of time and the entire timeline makes sense except for your obsession with having a "start".
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United States44311 Posts
On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
I'm not sure you understand it. There was never a timeline in which Hodor did not become Hodor. You seem to be arguing that Hodor needs to exist to create Hodor so if you think of it as a series of branching timelines in which Bran goes back to that day and creates a fork then obviously you have a paradox. But that's fine, time isn't a straight line, our brains simply perceive it as such. Weirwood Bran exists at all times simultaneously, he was able to set the conditions in place for his own creation because he had already set the conditions in place for his own creation. The only thing he couldn't have done was not create Hodor, because he had already created Hodor and was always going to create Hodor.
There is no multiverse, no forking, no universe in which anything played out in any other way than it did in the show. There was no "first time around" in which Bran went back and broke an otherwise fine Hodor (with the implication being the show is the second time around (or more). There is one timeline in which various points can become entangled. Young Hodor's young Hodor mind became entangled with old Hodor's brutal death being ripped apart by zombies and it broke him.
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On May 24 2016 06:24 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense though. Why does Bran have to get to Bloodraven without Hodor? Hodor is there. If Bran had to get to Bloodraven without Hodor the entire timeline would be different. The starting point is the start of time and the entire timeline makes sense except for your obsession with having a "start".
Okay, so time starts and Hodor never gets influenced by the future because Bran never makes it to Bloodraven because he needed Hodor to help him do so. So the whole event never happens.
There would have to be an alternate route to get into the time loop. Either a lucid Hodor or someone else helps Bran get to Bloodraven, or someone like Bloodraven himself messes with Hodor to turn him into Hodor, but then allows Bran to do it in the newly created timeline and create the time-loop which is now self perpetuating.
In which case, Bran did not mess up Hodor's life, someone else did. Alternatively, Hodor would have knowingly gone to help Bran and risk his life as a thinking human being knowing the consequences. Either way, the view of Bran is very different from what is shown.
Time travel is a mess.
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United States44311 Posts
On May 24 2016 06:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:24 Logo wrote:On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense though. Why does Bran have to get to Bloodraven without Hodor? Hodor is there. If Bran had to get to Bloodraven without Hodor the entire timeline would be different. The starting point is the start of time and the entire timeline makes sense except for your obsession with having a "start". Okay, so time starts and Hodor never gets influenced by the future because Bran never makes it to Bloodraven because he needed Hodor to help him do so. So the whole event never happens. There would have to be an alternate route to get into the time loop. Either a lucid Hodor or someone else helps Bran get to Bloodraven, or someone like Bloodraven himself messes with Hodor to turn him into Hodor, but then allows Bran to do it in the newly created timeline and create the time-loop which is now self perpetuating. In which case, Bran did not mess up Hodor's life, someone else did. Alternatively, Hodor would have knowingly gone to help Bran and risk his life as a thinking human being knowing the consequences. Either way, the view of Bran is very different from what is shown. Time travel is a mess.
Okay, so time starts and Hodor never gets influenced by the future
No, you're assuming that future events cannot influence past events. Time starts, Hodor is doing young Hodor things until one day he experiences his own brutal death and gets broken and becomes Hodor. One thing leads to another and eventually he finds himself under a tree eating moss.
I don't know how you're not getting this but if you're still not getting this after reading multiple explanations just assume that you don't understand and move on.
Hodor always became Hodor. There is just the one timeline and in that one timeline Bran always broke his mind.
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On May 24 2016 06:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:24 Logo wrote:On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense though. Why does Bran have to get to Bloodraven without Hodor? Hodor is there. If Bran had to get to Bloodraven without Hodor the entire timeline would be different. The starting point is the start of time and the entire timeline makes sense except for your obsession with having a "start". Okay, so time starts and Hodor never gets influenced by the future because Bran never makes it to Bloodraven because he needed Hodor to help him do so. So the whole event never happens. There would have to be an alternate route to get into the time loop. Either a lucid Hodor or someone else helps Bran get to Bloodraven, or someone like Bloodraven himself messes with Hodor to turn him into Hodor, but then allows Bran to do it in the newly created timeline and create the time-loop which is now self perpetuating. In which case, Bran did not mess up Hodor's life, someone else did. Alternatively, Hodor would have knowingly gone to help Bran and risk his life as a thinking human being knowing the consequences. Either way, the view of Bran is very different from what is shown. Time travel is a mess.
You are applying rules to the show that do not exist, specifically since the time travel is magic and not governed by the laws of cause and effect.
The future already happened, the same as the past. There is no first time, we just assume there is because that is how we view time.
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On May 24 2016 06:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 06:24 Logo wrote:On May 24 2016 06:19 RenSC2 wrote:
The problem with time altering events is that they always create a paradox (except if you use multiverses and actually influence a different universe). "Stable time loops" still create paradoxes.
How does Bran get to the North and meet Bloodraven without Hodor? The answer is probably that he doesn't. So how does he ever influence Hodor to become Hodor? The answer is that he doesn't. He needs Hodor to be an agreeable simpleton in order to get him to the spot where he can turn Hodor into an agreeable simpleton. There is never a starting point that gets him to the time loop.
Anyone can enjoy it for what it is and there have been plenty of enjoyable time travel stories, but if you think about it enough, it won't make sense.
That doesn't make any sense though. Why does Bran have to get to Bloodraven without Hodor? Hodor is there. If Bran had to get to Bloodraven without Hodor the entire timeline would be different. The starting point is the start of time and the entire timeline makes sense except for your obsession with having a "start". Okay, so time starts and Hodor never gets influenced by the future because Bran never makes it to Bloodraven because he needed Hodor to help him do so. So the whole event never happens. There would have to be an alternate route to get into the time loop. Either a lucid Hodor or someone else helps Bran get to Bloodraven, or someone like Bloodraven himself messes with Hodor to turn him into Hodor, but then allows Bran to do it in the newly created timeline and create the time-loop which is now self perpetuating. In which case, Bran did not mess up Hodor's life, someone else did. Alternatively, Hodor would have knowingly gone to help Bran and risk his life as a thinking human being knowing the consequences. Either way, the view of Bran is very different from what is shown. Time travel is a mess.
No there's no alternate route. If Bran doesn't make it to bloodraven then the whole timeline itself would be different; it would be a completely different story though not an alternate timeline that has to co-exist. If Hodor is still Hodor someone else would have caused it. If Hodor is lucid then he'd always be lucid. The events you see are the only way they'll ever happen. Since Bran will make it to Bloodraven he causes Hodor to become Hodor.
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You guys are talking like you've figured out how real world time travel would work. How can you get mad at someone for 'not getting' your explanation, when there is no actual consensus on the solution for a time paradox.
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On May 24 2016 06:52 solidbebe wrote:
You guys are talking like you've figured out how real world time travel would work. How can you get mad at someone for 'not getting' your explanation, when there is no actual consensus on the solution for a time paradox.
When the same person is applying rules for time travel to a world that has clearly shown it does not obey those rules. If we are going to start applying "real world rules" to this show, dragons can't fly and the fighting frozen dead bodies should be pretty easy since they will be frozen.
But since its all MAGIC, none of that stuff applies. We suspend our disbelief.
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EPT
