On May 23 2016 23:46 Logo wrote: I didn't quite get the transition from...
"You need to GTFO the white walkers are coming. Leave now."
to...
"Lets go hang out with your dad-as-a-kid so you can mess with Hodor"
The "time travel" stuff doesn't bother me, it's not like Bran changed the past from what we knew the past to be. So we aren't going to have alternate timelines or anything and there are no paradoxes.
But it just seems weird for them to decide to just chill and hang out in the past when they know the white walkers are going to come for them very soon.
Had the old guy not bring him there, the present will be messed up bec he will not be Hodor
Time travel is just the worst! I love science fiction. Time travel is not science fiction, it is nonsense. It should not be utilized anywhere except a story of nonsense. It is like having a plot element revolving around the idea that 2+2=5 instead of 4. There's no way of understanding, or making a self-coherent story out of nonsense. (And obviously I'm referring to traveling backward in time)
The Hodor time travel introduced incoherent nonsense into the plot. It can no longer be understood logically. It can only be understood through an inconsistent set of axioms which I don't find to be a particularly compelling way to understand what otherwise seems to be a rather grounded universe the story takes place in.
Hopefully they drop this plot point and ignore it for the rest of the series. Visions of the past? Fine. Hackneyed time travel, cause/effect paradox? NO.
Good scene otherwise, but I FUCKING HATE TIME TRAVEL, and I hate the nonsensical philosophical discussions it encourages.
The show has picked up a lot in my opinion. I was barely motivated to watch it the last two seasons. I'm glad they've moved towards showing stuff that furthers the general plot as opposed to the past two seasons when most scenes seemed just be focused around showing characters do their character-style things... You like Tyrion? Here is on a boat. Here he is as a slave. Here he is becoming an adviser. Here he is talking to that other character you like! (All in this during the unnatural, plot-free transition of Tyrion as the hand of the king to being adviser to Danaereassdsfdfasdf)
Lol, all these people saying the show is ruined by time travel, but everything else in the series made sense. A world where giant lizards that fly and breath fire, but the deep inner workings of fucking MADE UP MAGICAL TIME TRAVEL ruins it for them. The rules of cause and effect must apply for REASONS. Paradoxs, which are also made up science fiction bullshit, are clearly a bridge to far with magic ice people and ice zombies.
If the show is using non divergent timelines, which I really hope it is because multiverse shit is super lame in stories like this, then it's really simple.
The past is set in stone, the future is set in stone. If he went back and did something then he'd already done it. There's no "but if he didn't" or "PARADOX" or anything, events still occur in linear time and the universe is fully deterministic, that particular character just happens to briefly appear earlier in the time line for a bit before jumping back to his own time.
We're basically viewing the story retrospectively from some point infinitely far into the future where all the time travel that's going to happen has already happened. Any discussion of paradoxes or time distortion or causality or flashpoint crisis or whatever is irrelevant because in the typical implementation of this form of (fictional) time travel, the entire timeline is set in stone. Everything has already happened, both in the past and the future.
It's entirely possible that they'll pivot into bran suddenly changing the past and suddenly jon is a busty blonde and ned is alive again, and if that happens then a discussion about paradoxes and whatever is relevant. But I highly doubt they'll do something that retarded. + Show Spoiler +
pls no
Until then those discussions are about as relevant as talking about how it's dumb that danerys hasn't got her hogwarts letter yet when she's clearly at least part magical and over 11. It's a different subgenre of fiction.
TLDR: GoT is 12 monkeys, not Sound of Thunder or Primer
You could debate whether the GoT timeline has always been solid, or if the presence of time travel means the timeline has iterated through infinite variations of each possible application of time travel affecting the past or the future, only stopping when it reaches a stable loop where the timeline is solid and fully self referential.
That kind of adaption of the multiverse style, where you're fully constrained to your own multiverse, and since any unstable timeline will collapse into all it's infinite child stable timelines, you could argue that the GoT world just takes place inside one of these stable children. (Not that you have any way of knowing, from inside, where your timeline even is in the sequence of iterations. interesting story: https://qntm.org/responsibility . But as we're retrospective observers I think it's fair to say that from everything we've seen, we can assume that GRRM's time travel in this story so far strongly implies a stable loop.)
But assuming we don't start breaching between multiverses, then even if we are in a multiverse paradigm, as long as the specific timeline we're part of/following is one of the stable children then that means we're effectively in a non divergent timeline paradigm anyway, so none of that matters and the above post still applies.
Anyway I'm sleepy and this has turned rambly so I'll stop now :p
On May 23 2016 23:46 Logo wrote: I didn't quite get the transition from...
"You need to GTFO the white walkers are coming. Leave now."
to...
"Lets go hang out with your dad-as-a-kid so you can mess with Hodor"
The "time travel" stuff doesn't bother me, it's not like Bran changed the past from what we knew the past to be. So we aren't going to have alternate timelines or anything and there are no paradoxes.
But it just seems weird for them to decide to just chill and hang out in the past when they know the white walkers are going to come for them very soon.
Had the old guy not bring him there, the present will be messed up bec he will not be Hodor
He should never have been Hodor in the first place. I guess Bran might never have made it to the tree in the first place without Hodor, but going back in time solely to create Bran's vehicle is terrible writing. I guess the 3 eyed Raven had the children of the forest build a long tunnel and a back-door that would need to be held in order to artificially set up the Hodor creation scene too?
i think many are making the mistake of explicitly labeling bran's visions as "time travel". that kinda forces a scientific explanation in a world where magic and mysticism is suppose to be the core of how the GoT universe works.
Bran making Hodor Hodor was predestined. It was written and never meant to change.
On May 23 2016 23:46 Logo wrote: I didn't quite get the transition from...
"You need to GTFO the white walkers are coming. Leave now."
to...
"Lets go hang out with your dad-as-a-kid so you can mess with Hodor"
The "time travel" stuff doesn't bother me, it's not like Bran changed the past from what we knew the past to be. So we aren't going to have alternate timelines or anything and there are no paradoxes.
But it just seems weird for them to decide to just chill and hang out in the past when they know the white walkers are going to come for them very soon.
Had the old guy not bring him there, the present will be messed up bec he will not be Hodor
He should never have been Hodor in the first place. I guess Bran might never have made it to the tree in the first place without Hodor, but going back in time solely to create Bran's vehicle is terrible writing. I guess the 3 eyed Raven had the children of the forest build a long tunnel and a back-door that would need to be held in order to artificially set up the Hodor creation scene too?
like someone said it above, it is predestined, all of that is bound to happen, I don't think the 3 eyed Raven set that one up, it just happen that he saw that scenario in his visions
Another note to add to all the translations - I have to say that all things considered, they did a pretty good version in the Russian version of the dub:
Maybe this has already been addressed, but what really confuses me is what's Bran's plan to escape now?
Hodor sacrificed himself, and he bought them maybe what, 5 minutes to pull the sledge though the snow? The entire attack was precipitated by Bran being touched by the Night's King in his vision, and this causing him to learn Bran's exact location. Even if he only knew where he was at the time he touched Bran, and not thereafter, there's still a ravenous horde of undead hot on their tails. I don't see how they can escape and not just be ran down in few minutes after Hodor can no longer hold the door.
I hope this is shown/explained in the next episode. I don't really see how they can get out of there, unless the undead decide to give up after being slightly inconvenienced.
On May 24 2016 13:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Maybe this has already been addressed, but what really confuses me is what's Bran's plan to escape now?
Hodor sacrificed himself, and he bought them maybe what, 5 minutes to pull the sledge though the snow? The entire attack was precipitated by Bran being touched by the Night's King in his vision, and this causing him to learn Bran's exact location. Even if he only knew where he was at the time he touched Bran, and not thereafter, there's still a ravenous horde of undead hot on their tails. I don't see how they can escape and not just be ran down in few minutes after Hodor can no longer hold the door.
I hope this is shown/explained in the next episode. I don't really see how they can get out of there, unless the undead decide to give up after being slightly inconvenienced.
I'm wondering the exact same thing. I guess we'll just have to wait for the next episode.
On May 24 2016 13:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Maybe this has already been addressed, but what really confuses me is what's Bran's plan to escape now?
Hodor sacrificed himself, and he bought them maybe what, 5 minutes to pull the sledge though the snow? The entire attack was precipitated by Bran being touched by the Night's King in his vision, and this causing him to learn Bran's exact location. Even if he only knew where he was at the time he touched Bran, and not thereafter, there's still a ravenous horde of undead hot on their tails. I don't see how they can escape and not just be ran down in few minutes after Hodor can no longer hold the door..
That would make Hodor's demise even more tragic :O. All his life we waited to die and to give them a few minutes headstart that didn't matter anyway. But I don't think even GRRM could be so cruel so they'll probably get saved.
Maybe by a clan of Crasters long lost sons turned guerilla superheroes
I wonder if warg powers extend to controlling the undead, allowing bran to stop/delay the army long enough for them to get somewhere. Could be something like the white walkers were wargs before the CoF went all stabby stabby, and the reanimation/control of the zombies is some kind of warging?
Any Frenchies who want to weigh in on how Hodor would work in French?
I believe Hold the door would translate to "Tiens la porte"? Alternatively "Garde la porte"? Seems like another tough one to explain to readers without using footnotes lol.
So the children of the night, made the whitewalkers by stabbing them with some magical dagger, and i guess they only made a few? before they realised they couldnt control them at all. Then a couple of seasons ago we see that the whitewalkers can make more whitewalkers using babies which makes more sense seeing how they were orginally human.
The white walkers also seem to be way stronger than the wargs with magical powers (quenching the fire ring), seems only dragon fire/ stuff made with/by dragonfire the dragon glass can kill them. But even with that weakness why dont they make more than 4 white walkers, where was the baby one, and jon killed one of the 4 we saw last time with the valyrian blade (which idk how they make them but it might just be with dragon fire as well so like better dragon glass) but seriously why are there only 4 at a time.
I thought in this ep seeing the 4 of them on the horse was some kinda of reference to the 4 horsemen but they dont really seem to differ from each other appart from looks. Super curious to now the whitewalkers approach attacking the wall, unless we see some day z zombie ladder pretty sure the wall is a good way to hold now that they have the wildlings to reinforce it. Cant really see the whitewalkers scaling it lol.
Unless, of course, all those wildlings leave with Jon to go to winterfell From the last few Castle Black scenes it didn't look like there were many night's watch left. Kinda understandable after all the epic battles they've gone through.
On May 24 2016 15:51 Laurens wrote: Any Frenchies who want to weigh in on how Hodor would work in French?
I believe Hold the door would translate to "Tiens la porte"? Alternatively "Garde la porte"? Seems like another tough one to explain to readers without using footnotes lol.
I believe they went with something like "ne les laisse pas passer au-dehors", and then emphasized on "au-dehors". It's a bit stiff, but French is probably one of the harder languages to handle that particular translation.
i cant believe all these people getting annoyed by the "time travelling". Its like they never read any fantasy before and suddenly this is a complete bullshit in the whole story. In the world where you have magic, dragons, walking dead and Gods (plural), and also (attention!) prophecies, prophets and messiahs, it is really OK to have events cross-linked in different times.
On May 24 2016 15:51 Laurens wrote: Any Frenchies who want to weigh in on how Hodor would work in French?
I believe Hold the door would translate to "Tiens la porte"? Alternatively "Garde la porte"? Seems like another tough one to explain to readers without using footnotes lol.
I'm not French but this is apparently how it was done:
French subtitles, it's something like "Ne les laisse pas aller au-dehors" which translates to "don't let them come outside". Then "pas au-dehors" => "au-dehors" => "hodor". Not the worst, but one of the many reasons i read/watched everything in english. =)
Which is inelegant but passable, I suppose.
Edit: Left this unsubmitted too long and someone beat me to it, but yeah.
EPT
