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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing Dragon Ball Super. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here.
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Zamasu arc had an actual threat. A true enemy. It could have been a great arc if it ended anyother way.
Beerus arc was cool for exposition but nothing outoutstanding.
Freeza was pure trash.
U6 showed cool characthers. Kaioken being reintruduced is bullshit, a!d a lot of other!power inconsistencies in the fights. Manga version of blue transform and goku trick in the tournament made more sense and made the groundwork for Vegeta vs Black. But it still had a lot of dumb shit!
Zamasu arc also showed something about vegeta. He decided to perfect goku technique while goku went to something more powerful and different. It showed Vegeta just following goku, even though he can bring goku's tricks to higher levels that goku himself noted.
Let's see how the manga will execute this arc. Manga can learn from the anime mistakes. We already know they usually follow different paths. Zamasu being completely different is proof of that.
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When all's said and done, one standout thing that will definitely have made DBS enjoyable will be the music.
Clash of Gods, Kachi Daze, Jiren's theme, the Vegeta / Genki Dama ascension... epic and memorable.
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On March 01 2018 06:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 00:19 Cricketer12 wrote:
I really disliked ssj4. Red and Blue are way better imo I agree. I think Red and Blue are way better. Personally I don't have a problem with all the transformations a lot of people have, frankly I imagine there will be more if another DBZ/DBS show pops up in a few years. Long as it looks good I am fine with it. The thing I dislike about UI isn't the transformation itself, but it was described as a technique, not a transformation. So it seems to be a transformation and a technique, which seems weird as it shouldn't be giving any power boost, just the ability to react instantly. Even then it doesn't bug me THAT much. The only thing that really bugs me about it is that I don't feel like there can ever be another credible threat. I mean I guess they can just BS it, but it feels like there isn't a real way to do this, not with how God of Destructions are talked about and only the angels + Goku know UI now (far as I know no God of Destruction has it mastered).
Yeah, my thing with UI is like...wait, hold up. Why does that make you super strong? So Goku's body moves without thought, which should basically mean it overcomes the inherent latency of signal transmittance from your brain. Got it. So that is why Goku should be dodging shit and attaining what you could think of as "unlocked full potential" in terms of speed. But why is he suddenly punching 100x as hard? Is his technique so dank from his body moving on his own that he has flawless contact and centering with every attack? I just don't quite get *what* is happening. Maybe it is a bit of a mistranslation. I just don't get what the fuck UI even is and why that suddenly means ki blasts and stuff are stronger.
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I think it is incorrect to assume that UI was only ever implied to be something that augmented his reactions. It's been treated and talked about as a powerup pretty clearly from the start, and the aura that surrounds him suggests it as well. To fully explain it would require they actually fully explain anything in the lore, but I was never under that impression personally.
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I take UI as that his reaction is faster than his opponents can sometimes react. Meaning, he can hit them before they prepare their bodies, inflicting damage. Jiren seems to scale up or down to his opponent as needed, so he counters UI in the previews. Goku was already crazy strong before UI, now couple that with the ability to strike before they are prepared, and I can see it causing more damage than before.
Also, you can see that Vegeta rose to almost perfect SSGSS during his last stance. I don't think Goku has reached that level yet, so he's still base SSGSS, but now with UI. He's stronger than Vegeta by a slim margin at this point I assume.
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28094 Posts
On March 01 2018 09:48 NewSunshine wrote:
I think it is incorrect to assume that UI was only ever implied to be something that augmented his reactions. It's been treated and talked about as a powerup pretty clearly from the start, and the aura that surrounds him suggests it as well. To fully explain it would require they actually fully explain anything in the lore, but I was never under that impression personally.
Pretty much what I thought tbh. I think the main indicator for me was when Whis (or maybe it was Beerus?) made a comment about how much heat he was giving off the first time he went UI. If it's just a mental state, what the heat is up with the heat 
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His body is changing to keep up with his brain. That's a significant upgrade in processing power and well, goku's muscles have a lot to process. So the heat is his body undergoing a rather rapid transformation to be able to react instantly to any threat. Hence, the heat.
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Good explanations guys, thanks! Next question: is UI an extension of god ki, meaning you need a form similar to blue or GoD first, or I wonder if "mortal" power can get you there. It doesn't seem like Jiren has it at all.
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On March 01 2018 17:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Good explanations guys, thanks! Next question: is UI an extension of god ki, meaning you need a form similar to blue or GoD first, or I wonder if "mortal" power can get you there. It doesn't seem like Jiren has it at all.
Pretty sure my brain just exploded trying to come up with an internally consistent understanding of this.
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On March 01 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 17:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Good explanations guys, thanks! Next question: is UI an extension of god ki, meaning you need a form similar to blue or GoD first, or I wonder if "mortal" power can get you there. It doesn't seem like Jiren has it at all. Pretty sure my brain just exploded trying to come up with an internally consistent understanding of this.
Mine is bursting for trying to write an explanation in english. Jiren is quite "odd"; as far as we know he doesn't have god ki but he is still way stronger than Toppo (who got ejected by an attack from Vegeta, while Jiren played with both vegeta and goku). But UI according to Whis is "breaking inner shell" or something like that, it took goku to be totally annihilated by his own Genkidama (and yet I wonder how a genkidama made by the power of 10 people was able to be a threat for a SSJB but it's another incoherence for DBS) to break his inner shell. If UI doesn't recquiere GOD ki then it means than when facing a power that will overwhelm him (and that has yet to happens) Jiren could break his own shell to go UI. But with his absolutly insane potential I can't imagine how strong it will be (one can hope that the next arc will be the team-up of the lower universe against the 4 strongest universe, and then it will be a power up for Jiren  )
But if UI requiere God Ki then it's not a state that mere mortal can achieve.
(Tbh This genkidama should not have happened :/ It should have been a Blast from Jiren )
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On March 01 2018 17:27 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2018 17:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 01 2018 17:09 Mohdoo wrote:
Good explanations guys, thanks! Next question: is UI an extension of god ki, meaning you need a form similar to blue or GoD first, or I wonder if "mortal" power can get you there. It doesn't seem like Jiren has it at all. Pretty sure my brain just exploded trying to come up with an internally consistent understanding of this. Mine is bursting for trying to write an explanation in english. Jiren is quite "odd"; as far as we know he doesn't have god ki but he is still way stronger than Toppo (who got ejected by an attack from Vegeta, while Jiren played with both vegeta and goku). But UI according to Whis is "breaking inner shell" or something like that, it took goku to be totally annihilated by his own Genkidama (and yet I wonder how a genkidama made by the power of 10 people was able to be a threat for a SSJB but it's another incoherence for DBS) to break his inner shell. If UI doesn't recquiere GOD ki then it means than when facing a power that will overwhelm him (and that has yet to happens) Jiren could break his own shell to go UI. But with his absolutly insane potential I can't imagine how strong it will be (one can hope that the next arc will be the team-up of the lower universe against the 4 strongest universe, and then it will be a power up for Jiren ) But if UI requiere God Ki then it's not a state that mere mortal can achieve. (Tbh This genkidama should not have happened :/ It should have been a Blast from Jiren )
I think there could be a lot of potential story lines to come out of the ToP but this explanation makes me think of the other universes not being excluded because of their "avg power lvl" per say but more specifically because they each contained someone more powerful than those in attendance and the real point of the ToP wasn't for Zen oh's entertainment, but to find warriors capable of stopping their power hungry ambitions (all this being orchestrated by the angels the power behind the figurehead of zen oh).
Just spitballing though.
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well thankfully they will have plenty of time to think about it, and hopefully come up with a more consistent storyline. They have a ton of options available to them, especially if the ending is goku or u7 or w/e wishing everyone back.
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My guess is it comes from mastering god ki to a sufficient extent, it's pretty strictly linked so far. I know we're kind of left to assume that enemies like Jiren also use god ki, because we're on the level of GoD's at this point, but I don't think that's necessarily true. It doesn't seem like Frieza uses it either.
Idk, that's about all I can come up with there.
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On March 01 2018 09:48 NewSunshine wrote:
I think it is incorrect to assume that UI was only ever implied to be something that augmented his reactions. It's been treated and talked about as a powerup pretty clearly from the start, and the aura that surrounds him suggests it as well. To fully explain it would require they actually fully explain anything in the lore, but I was never under that impression personally.
I'm going by way back in the ROF arc when Whis explained it. He never named it UI, but he talked about a technique of being able to react instantly without thought which took a lot of training. It never sounded like it was supposed to be a new transformation or power up.
I mean I am not surprised they went that route, always easier for the audience to understand with a new visual, just sounds like they changed their route or included a new transformation + the technique.
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When Whis mentioned it back in like ep20 or whatever it was, he was super vague about it. It's entirely reasonable for UI to be a state that grants extra power, as well as finding some way to supersede Goku's normal reaction times, where the bit about a fighting technique, that lets them react instinctively to enemies, is but a subset of that greater state. Power can scale, but your reactions can't. So to Whis that's obviously the bigger barrier to seeing Goku progress.
I'm trying not to overthink this, which is hard lol. But so far they've given us more to suggest it's a powerup than not, and they pretty much cemented it when the peanut gallery was talking about how Goku instantly closed the gap in power between Jiren and himself, very directly hinting at a power increase that goes along with it.
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TLADT24920 Posts
The odd thing was that when Goku went UI the first time, his punches were not harming Jiren at all and now, they seem to be doing massive damage. Was that ever explained? I know when he fought with Kefla, he was switching between Red and Blue but that's not the case here. How was he dealing damage again?
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On March 02 2018 03:20 BigFan wrote:
The odd thing was that when Goku went UI the first time, his punches were not harming Jiren at all and now, they seem to be doing massive damage. Was that ever explained? I know when he fought with Kefla, he was switching between Red and Blue but that's not the case here. How was he dealing damage again?
The biggest thing I can think of is: Goku gets progressively better at landing effective blows as he continues to be exposed to UI, and so after his encounter with Kefla, he's mastered it to a greater degree, and is able to actually land a meaningful attack.
How Goku is mastering UI this quickly makes no sense in and of itself, but I'm suspending that disbelief to try and make this work. Also nibbling at me is this feeling that since that first fight with Jiren, he got nerfed or something? Vegeta mentioned at one point that Jiren wasn't fighting as seriously as he was before with Goku that first time, but that was the only thing we got to reinforce the feeling that Jiren wasn't as seemingly invincible as he was before. Ever since that fight, it seemed like they toned him down a little bit. I guess they were afraid of it being unbelievable for Goku to beat Jiren as he was? It's been weirdly inconsistent, even by DB standards.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Well, maybe he expended a lot of energy and only got so much from meditation?
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I know people in this thread have been saying that, but they've said literally 0 about it in the show. If that was going to be some kind of weakness for him, they would've established it a long time ago. It would be an asspull if they turned around in 2 episodes and made that be the case just so Goku could win.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I want to give my take on some of the disscussion.
I think God ki is probably necessary for ultra instinc. But maybe Jiren has UI. He dodged things without even looking (like the stage block when the tournament was about to start) and in the fight agaisnt Goku he was never hit until Goku got UI.
About UI being a technice or a transformation, I think it was originally a technique, but transformation sells toys, so....
Some were talking about how could UI make someone stronger. I read on reddit a very nice theory that explained that just as UI makes your muscles know exactly how to dodge, what to do, and do it fast, I think "offensive" UI enables the user to see exactly where the enemy let's his guard down and hit there when he isn't covering or expecting it. Basically your body would automatically detect the vulnerabilities of the enemy. Similar to what an user here said that it would hit them before they can prepare their bodies. I think this is a solid theory that gives some contentx to the extremely weird comment made by 17 and Goku that "Jiren is vulnerable if he doesn't expect the atack" (Although this means he doesn't have UI?). Obviously if you don't expect the atack you are vulnerable, so maybe it was instead a hint that you have vulnerabilities in any stance and if the enemy finds them they can be exploited.
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EPT
