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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
I do hope this doesn't turn too much into time paradoxes and all that, maybe this is just D&D's Easter Egg to answer if Bran can communicate through the Weirnet (to young Ned, Theon in the Godswood being ambiguous moments the book). I felt the same way about the pink letter being hand delivered to Jon.
Paradoxes are incredibly unlikely. It seems to follow the general idea that the past only happens once. So whatever Bran goes back and changes will just be the world as we know it in the current days of the story.
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Sweden1343 Posts
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why?
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On May 24 2016 04:51 OminouS wrote:
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why?
Well Bran had to be there in order to mess up Hodor and fulfill the past. I trust that Bloodraven knew this and rushed him into it when he may have otherwise waited longer to show it to him. I was confused at first because it seemed like a strange thing to do when they were in so much danger, but it needed to be done before Bran could leave.
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My problem with that line of thinking is that Bloodraven specifically tells Bran he can't change the past after the Tower of Joy scene in the show and the Ned praying in the Godswood scene in the book.
Edit: let me clarify since stable time loop proponents will argue nothing was changed. Bloodraven specifically says Bran can't influence anything he sees. If he knew, then it's a pretty cheap trick to disguise 'they can't hear you' or whatever line he uses.
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On May 24 2016 05:23 Wuster wrote:
My problem with that line of thinking is that Bloodraven specifically tells Bran he can't change the past after the Tower of Joy scene in the show and the Ned praying in the Godswood scene in the book.
Edit: let me clarify since stable time loop proponents will argue nothing was changed. Bloodraven specifically says Bran can't influence anything he sees. If he knew, then it's a pretty cheap trick to disguise 'they can't hear you' or whatever line he uses.
Yeah that would be a poorly decided on line of dialogue, but that's more a problem with establishing a rule you want to break, not a problem with stable time loop type deals.
But in that case it's also possible that Bran is more powerful than the Bloodraven. Bloodraven may think he's telling the truth and just doesn't know. It would lend credibility to the idea that Bran is some sort of really important greenseer in the war to come.
It's also just a failing of the show over the book maybe? Like in the book they establish consistently that people hear whispers of the old gods (really the greenseers like Bloodraven). Or more of a statement on the time loop being stable. Bran can't change the past from what he knows it to be.
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On May 23 2016 23:49 Logo wrote:
Not having Euron appear mystical really does ruin his rise as the new King.
Even if they didn't want to go mystical he could have at least had SOMETHING to prove his worth. If the dude showed up with some crazy weapons, a ridiculous flagship ship (is that redundant?) or whatever it would be way more believable that the Ironborn would overlook the kinslaying.
Not having the magic horn thingamabob made the ironborn look like a bunch of idiots.
Also, I'm amused that Firefox's spellchecker flagged kinslaying but not thingamabob. Apparently, the latter is considered an actual word while the former isn't.
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On May 24 2016 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:51 OminouS wrote:
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why? Well Bran had to be there in order to mess up Hodor and fulfill the past. I trust that Bloodraven knew this and rushed him into it when he may have otherwise waited longer to show it to him. I was confused at first because it seemed like a strange thing to do when they were in so much danger, but it needed to be done before Bran could leave.
What would have happened if Bran didn't do that stuff to Hodor? And if we're using the argument of the past never changes, Bran simply has to do it in the future like he did, what does that say about free will?
Also it's like... How do you get there? For Bran to change the past from the future, he had to get to the future in the first place, so it's like where's the beginning. And the three-eyed raven had to know that Bran would have that vision with the night king, so why didn't he teach Bran sooner. Hmm, I hope when Winds of Winter comes out we will get a better explanation of this time time travel stuff.
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On May 24 2016 05:32 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:On May 24 2016 04:51 OminouS wrote:
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why? Well Bran had to be there in order to mess up Hodor and fulfill the past. I trust that Bloodraven knew this and rushed him into it when he may have otherwise waited longer to show it to him. I was confused at first because it seemed like a strange thing to do when they were in so much danger, but it needed to be done before Bran could leave. What would have happened if Bran didn't do that stuff to Hodor? And if we're using the argument of the past never changes, Bran simply has to do it in the future like he did, what does that say about free will? Also it's like... How do you get there? For Bran to change the past from the future, he had to get to the future in the first place, so it's like where's the beginning. And the three-eyed raven had to know that Bran would have that vision with the night king, so why didn't he teach Bran sooner. Hmm, I hope when Winds of Winter comes out we will get a better explanation of this time time travel stuff.
What if Robert sent a Raven instead of going up to Winterfell himself? It's roughly equal to asking what if bran didn't do that stuff to Hodor; it would be a completely different story. Hodor would have never been Hodor in the first place and the arc would be completely different.
I mean basically think of time travel less as undoing the thread of time back to a particular point and more as a way of getting from point A to B. Bran go to B by way of the future, but that doesn't imply a re-doing of the events or anything. The scene only happens once (the way we saw it) it just happens that one of the characters of that moment came from the future.
I think you're implying a bit too much omniscience to the bloodraven. He probably knew that Bran would influence Hodor, but probably not necessarily the series of events that would lead to it.
I think the books will fare better though; they already do by setting up the time travel as part of the Weirwoods and establishing the influence they can have (the whispers). If they setup the same Hodor situation I'd imagine it'll be framed a little better in terms of cause & effect instead of Bloodraven having to go to that moment just to let Bran influence Hodor.
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STOP KILLING THE FUCKING GOD DAMN DIREWOLVES
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At least with Brienne traveling to Riverrun we may get a look at Nymeria's Brood.
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This episode had me at the edge of my seat at the end but Euron was ruined and the whole Bran plot feels super rushed.
Edit: and the whole "Children of the Forest created the White Walkers to fight against men!" is fucking stupid.
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I did think the Priest guy doing the ceremony, with the music in the background, and Theon/Yara gtfo was pretty cool. The lines for the ritual were pretty awesome. About the only part of Kingsmoot I enjoyed.
Ironborn/Dornish guards seem to have no problem watching rulers get chopped down.
On May 24 2016 05:53 dmnum wrote:
Edit: and the whole "Children of the Forest created the White Walkers to fight against men!" is fucking stupid.
Hasn't this been implied in the books several times?
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The Children most definitely have used very strong magic against Men in the past. They smashed the Arm of Dorne to stop human migration and they tried to destroy the Neck to cut themselves off from men in the past.
I don't see how them creating the Others to fight man is that stupid given the context that they've never really been friends of mankind.
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Never mind actually. I was actually thinking that creating the White Walkers was stupid because dragons would just roll through them, but I forgot that the Targaryens only arrived at Westeros way later. My mistake.
I still think Bran's plot was rushed and Euron was ruined, though. In the books Euron doesn't feel only insane, it also feels like he knows something the rest of the characters don't - the characters is more mysterious than crazy. In the show he's your run of the mill murderous psychopath.
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Yeah I think the only thing that saved the Kingsmoot from being another Dorne is how cool the drowning of Euron was.
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On May 24 2016 05:13 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 04:51 OminouS wrote:
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why? Well Bran had to be there in order to mess up Hodor and fulfill the past. I trust that Bloodraven knew this and rushed him into it when he may have otherwise waited longer to show it to him. I was confused at first because it seemed like a strange thing to do when they were in so much danger, but it needed to be done before Bran could leave.
My take on it is that he has to "access" him through the past in order to calm him down in the present so that Hodor can start carrying Bran. Then, he dies hearing "Hold the door!" which scars a past version of himself. The Bloodraven knew this had occurred before and, like you mentioned, wanted to ease Bran into his past-altering powers, but alas the mistake occurred again and the cycle continues.
All this time stuff is starting to make my head hurt though. Do they exist in a system where altering the past alters the present, or one where altering the past alters some other timeline/universe, while the current timeline continues to exist?
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Supppeeerrrr Disappointed with the Kingsmoot and Euron. The guy seems like a decent actor but he doesn't seem to have that mysterious, bat shit crazy and awesome edge to him. The speech was horribly written, basiclly dick jokes into lol I'm king now, which really takes away from the Ironborn people and makes them look retarded.
+ Show Spoiler +
Not a fan of Summer dying almost pointlessly, seriously the wolf didn't slow them down at all. He would have been of more help running with them. Helping later or even just to use for warmth now that they are trapped outside in the freezing cold. Plus it gets over shadowed completely by Hold the Door. Just seems like a really lame excuse to cut CGI costs, which is strange considering this seasons budget is supposed to be huge.
I enjoyed everything else though, the Hodor scene was really good. I enjoyed the banter with Varys and the red priestess. All in all a great episodes imo. If they did the Kingsmoot properly it could have been in my top 5 of best episodes. Kingsmoot well done and Summer not dying pointlessly and it could have been my favourite episode.
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On May 24 2016 07:59 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Supppeeerrrr Disappointed with the Kingsmoot and Euron. The guy seems like a decent actor but he doesn't seem to have that mysterious, bat shit crazy and awesome edge to him. The speech was horribly written, basiclly dick jokes into lol I'm king now, which really takes away from the Ironborn people and makes them look retarded. + Show Spoiler +Not a fan of Summer dying almost pointlessly, seriously the wolf didn't slow them down at all. He would have been of more help running with them. Helping later or even just to use for warmth now that they are trapped outside in the freezing cold. Plus it gets over shadowed completely by Hold the Door. Just seems like a really lame excuse to cut CGI costs, which is strange considering this seasons budget is supposed to be huge. I enjoyed everything else though, the Hodor scene was really good. I enjoyed the banter with Varys and the red priestess. All in all a great episodes imo. If they did the Kingsmoot properly it could have been in my top 5 of best episodes. Kingsmoot well done and Summer not dying pointlessly and it could have been my favourite episode.
So something that's been bugging me about the Kingsmoot (why the hell is it Kings Meet in the show?). Euron just straight up admits to killing Balon, did someone else already pull that trick earlier? Oh yes, Alister Thorne at Castle Black... and he also calms everyone down with "the old leader sucked anyways."
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pilou asbæk doesn't have the charisma euron would need imo
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OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious...
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