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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
No, I don't think you're missing anything. It was relatively unnecessary and very much felt like a forced plot point.
Something else though, and I feel like I'm alone in this because nobody else ever mentions this, but I'm starting to be a bit irritated by the fact that the Others never speak. In the books they do speak, just in their language which nobody else understands. When the Night's King was walking toward Bloodraven, I was fully expecting him to speak. But then he didn't.
I really, really hope the Others aren't portrayed as speechless villains in the show. It would take away a lot of depth, I think. Plus we're starting to see the Night's King a lot, at some point he's gotta speak or else he'll likely remain mute forever.
Anybody else feel that way?
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Them never talking would be interesting as long as the unanswered questions about their intent can be inferred through other silent scenes. I think a silent villain that we barely understood be interesting. Them talking would reduces a lot of their menace.
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On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious...
Because Hodor had to happen. If they don't go back there, Hodor doesn't become hodor and stays as Wylis then you get all sorts of timeline fuckery.
They went back because Hodor is Hodor and if they didn't he wouldn't be. The fact that he was Hodor when Bloodraven met them means this was always meant to happen and BR knew it, hence he took them back to Winterfell.
Essentially they went back to Winterfell because that is what happened in the past and it needed to match with the present.
Time travel stuff is messed up and confusing to discuss and I don't even know if my thoughts make sense to anyone else xD
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On May 24 2016 09:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious... Because Hodor had to happen. If they don't go back there, Hodor doesn't become hodor and stays as Wylis then you get all sorts of timeline fuckery. They went back because Hodor is Hodor and if they didn't he wouldn't be. The fact that he was Hodor when Bloodraven met them means this was always meant to happen and BR knew it, hence he took them back to Winterfell. Essentially they went back to Winterfell because that is what happened in the past and it needed to match with the present. Time travel stuff is messed up and confusing to discuss and I don't even know if my thoughts make sense to anyone else xD
Yes, this makes sense "in the context of time travel", and I think this is what they're going for. Except it doesn't make sense if we assume time is linear. But well.
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United States41984 Posts
On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious...
Because it could not have been otherwise. They had to go back to when Hodor became Hodor because Hodor had to be Hodor. The future and the past are both written in stone where Bran is concerned. He has choices but his choices must be the ones he has already made, if that makes sense.
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On May 24 2016 04:51 OminouS wrote:
"The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us hang out in this seemingly unimportant moment in time of Ned leaving Winterfell."
Why?
I was more perplexed by "The Others are coming. We have little time. Let us talk casually about the food we used to like, like eggs and bacon."
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On May 24 2016 11:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious... Because it could not have been otherwise. They had to go back to when Hodor became Hodor because Hodor had to be Hodor. The future and the past are both written in stone where Bran is concerned. He has choices but his choices must be the ones he has already made, if that makes sense.
I can get behind this explanation.
What I don't get is: "What if Bran/BR don't succeed in going back in time, and Hodor does not become Hodor?"
Wtf happens then? 
I guess you addressed that by saying the future is written in stone, so it simply would never happen, but that's a bit cheap by Martin, no?
I very much look forward to this passage in the book, I hope it is better explained there.
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On May 24 2016 15:27 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 11:32 KwarK wrote:On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious... Because it could not have been otherwise. They had to go back to when Hodor became Hodor because Hodor had to be Hodor. The future and the past are both written in stone where Bran is concerned. He has choices but his choices must be the ones he has already made, if that makes sense. I can get behind this explanation. What I don't get is: "What if Bran/BR don't succeed in going back in time, and Hodor does not become Hodor?" Wtf happens then? I guess you addressed that by saying the future is written in stone, so it simply would never happen, but that's a bit cheap by Martin, no? I very much look forward to this passage in the book, I hope it is better explained there.
Welcome to time travel plotlines. Never really make sense.
Thought the episode was pretty damn good, but fuck the whole Euron thing is awful. Terrible script for him, none of the charisma that he has in the books. Summer's death was also completely unnecessary, and Arya's training is getting tiresome.
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United States41984 Posts
Imagine that the past is fixed, so Hodor having a fit where he cries out "hold the door" over and over as a child is a fixed event. However wherever "time travel" takes place the future must conform to whatever shape is needed for that past to have been true. Things that have not yet happened can still form a part of a past which cannot unhappen and therefore those things which have not yet happened must play out in the way which inevitably leads to the past that is being the past that must be.
So in the past at the Tower of Joy a random voice appears out of the air and calls to Ned. This event happened, always happened and must happen. The fact that the cause for that voice is at a different time is irrelevant. Time progresses forwards in a way that must lead to Bran learning to be a greenseer and going to that moment and calling out to Ned. You can maintain a linear understanding of time as long as you get flexible with the order of cause and effect. Cause and effect must retain their pairings such that there is only ever one timeline in which the same things always happen but they need not happen in the usual order.
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On May 24 2016 15:59 KwarK wrote:
Imagine that the past is fixed, so Hodor having a fit where he cries out "hold the door" over and over as a child is a fixed event. However wherever "time travel" takes place the future must conform to whatever shape is needed for that past to have been true. Things that have not yet happened can still form a part of a past which cannot unhappen and therefore those things which have not yet happened must play out in the way which inevitably leads to the past that is being the past that must be.
So in the past at the Tower of Joy a random voice appears out of the air and calls to Ned. This event happened, always happened and must happen. The fact that the cause for that voice is at a different time is irrelevant. Time progresses forwards in a way that must lead to Bran learning to be a greenseer and going to that moment and calling out to Ned. You can maintain a linear understanding of time as long as you get flexible with the order of cause and effect. Cause and effect must retain their pairings such that there is only ever one timeline in which the same things always happen but they need not happen in the usual order.
Yeah ok. I keep slightly struggling with the fact that Bran could've easily died at Winterfell and then Ned would've never heard a voice/Hodor would not have Hodor'd, etc. But I guess there's no point to dwell on the "what-if's".
I guess this further proves Bran's insane plot armour, in case any were still doubting
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But how does that make sense if we watch the story unravel as it goes on? To my mind, such a plot would only make sense if somehow the story was being told by someone else, recounted if you will. If all the events, including the ones we're watching right now, are over when we read about them.
To dumb it down and make it clearer, to me, such a story would only make sense if at the very end we have a scene of a maester closing a book and saying to a child or whatever: "and that's how the story ended".
But forgetting that, the explanation you provide does make sense. The only issue I have with it is that it's essentially: "the event happening is its own justification for itself, because it had to happen". Essentially, that's the author saying "because I said so". Wouldn't you agree?
If so, I find that extremely disappointing.
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On May 24 2016 11:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 08:33 Sholip wrote:
OK, maybe I'm not getting something here, or I just wasn't paying enough attention, but after identifying that Bran has the NK's mark, why do Bloodraven and Bran proceed to hang out warging in past-Winterfell? BR even states that they have to go immediately, but then says "It's time, you have to become me." Then Bran wargs out and next we see them in Winterfell. What's the purpose of this?
I'm sure I'm missing something incredibly obvious... Because it could not have been otherwise. They had to go back to when Hodor became Hodor because Hodor had to be Hodor. The future and the past are both written in stone where Bran is concerned. He has choices but his choices must be the ones he has already made, if that makes sense.
Yes, I understand they had to go back, because Hodor had to happen. This supposes a predestined timeline, which I can live with, because it makes sense with time travel.
However, I see a problem here. Having to go back to Winterfell because of the timeline is not a reason the characters would come up with. It's not something that should influence them. It's more like a frame around their decisions, something that will happen inevitably, regardless (but in the end, very much as a consequence) of their decisions.
In other words, there should be a reason as to why BR decides to go back to WF within this frame, not the frame itself. Like if BR had said, "There is something really important in WF you have to see before you go," (and actually meaning it), it would have made sense, because it's a valid reason.
There was no such reason, though, which only leaves the possibility that BR already knew about Hodor happening. Now I don't say it's impossible, because he might have seen it earlier, and may also have figured out that it was (would be) caused by Bran warging back and influencing the past somehow. But the lack of any other logical reason suggests that BR decides to go back just for the sake of Hodor being able to happen. Why? Is the timeline suddenly not so predestined? What happens if, in spite of BR knowing that/how Hodor should happen, he decides not to go back? By all logic, it should still happen somehow, like Bran deciding for some reason that he should go back, or accidentally warging in WF instead of another dimension, etc. Point is, it feels like BR wanted to fulfill the past by going back, but that should have happend anyways, without him trying to artificially do so.
If, for some reason, the past has to be manually modified to allow for the present Hodor to be as he is, that suddenly supposes the timeline is not predestined, which does not make sense, because then what if Bran dies right there and no one ever goes back in time to make Hodor Hodor?
Does this make sense to you guys? 
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On May 24 2016 15:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Arya's training is getting tiresome.
That's putting it mildly. We've been watching her get beaten up with a stick for half a season now, seriously what's up with that
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On May 24 2016 23:15 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 15:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Arya's training is getting tiresome. That's putting it mildly. We've been watching her get beaten up with a stick for half a season now, seriously what's up with that
don't train enough -> "omg she's suddenly a master swordswoman LOL"
train too much -> "seriously what's up with this, it's getting tiresome"
similar to the too much travelling/instant travel complaints.
It's hard to please everyone 
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I agree the have to go back reasoning on its own is weak.
I think it's better to think of it as Blood Raven having a good last lesson for Bran. He teaches him that he can influence people through his dreams, but as far as the past is concerned he can't actually change history from what he has known to pass (I.e Hodor is going to become Hodor).
Both are pretty important lessons for him to learn before he goes out on his own.
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On May 24 2016 23:25 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 23:15 Talin wrote:On May 24 2016 15:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Arya's training is getting tiresome. That's putting it mildly. We've been watching her get beaten up with a stick for half a season now, seriously what's up with that don't train enough -> "omg she's suddenly a master swordswoman LOL" train too much -> "seriously what's up with this, it's getting tiresome" similar to the too much travelling/instant travel complaints. It's hard to please everyone
I agree with Arya training scenes, those can be replaced with one line from Jaqen, referring the time and training.
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GRRM confirmed that the Hodor reveal will have a different context in the books btw
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On May 25 2016 00:00 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2016 23:25 Laurens wrote:On May 24 2016 23:15 Talin wrote:On May 24 2016 15:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Arya's training is getting tiresome. That's putting it mildly. We've been watching her get beaten up with a stick for half a season now, seriously what's up with that don't train enough -> "omg she's suddenly a master swordswoman LOL" train too much -> "seriously what's up with this, it's getting tiresome" similar to the too much travelling/instant travel complaints. It's hard to please everyone I agree with Arya training scenes, those can be replaced with one line from Jaqen, referring the time and training.
It's not like the training scenes have no context. The more recent ones are there to show the developing relationship between Arya and her sparring partner. The way the sparring partner is showing increasing amounts of emotion during the sessions is likely to have some sort of impact later on.
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On May 25 2016 00:24 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 00:00 palexhur wrote:On May 24 2016 23:25 Laurens wrote:On May 24 2016 23:15 Talin wrote:On May 24 2016 15:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Arya's training is getting tiresome. That's putting it mildly. We've been watching her get beaten up with a stick for half a season now, seriously what's up with that don't train enough -> "omg she's suddenly a master swordswoman LOL" train too much -> "seriously what's up with this, it's getting tiresome" similar to the too much travelling/instant travel complaints. It's hard to please everyone I agree with Arya training scenes, those can be replaced with one line from Jaqen, referring the time and training. It's not like the training scenes have no context. The more recent ones are there to show the developing relationship between Arya and her sparring partner. The way the sparring partner is showing increasing amounts of emotion during the sessions is likely to have some sort of impact later on.
You could see that since training #1, I find it very boring and repetitive, but each at his own.
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The only thing that bothers me about Arya's scenes is that she didn't die while drinking from the fountain. She's miles from being no one and this rang especially true when she was watching the play.
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EPT
