EPT[Hero] Winter Wyvern - Page 9
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United States7542 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
'counterpushing' might not have been the right word idk i guess i should've said 'good at defending towers' q puts out a lot of damage and lets you initiate from a very safe distance maxing q isn't just 'ease-of-use,' it also increases your initiation range by a lot. it's much, much easier to initiate ganks or teamfights with max q versus max w and the cd reduction isn't exactly minor, 50/40/30/20 is a massive increase in uptime and it's 100% on your opponents if they get hit with w or not... i don't see how you can 'practice' making your opponents clump up ... you legitimately can't land more than 1, maybe 2 w's against half-decent players | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On February 18 2015 07:49 Dead9 wrote: you can usually hit their entire team with q, sometimes before they even reach the tower 'counterpushing' might not have been the right word idk i guess i should've said 'good at defending towers' q puts out a lot of damage and lets you initiate from a very safe distance maxing q isn't just 'ease-of-use,' it also increases your initiation range by a lot. it's much, much easier to initiate ganks or teamfights with max q versus max w and the cd reduction isn't exactly minor, 50/40/30/20 is a massive increase in uptime and it's 100% on your opponents if they get hit with w or not... i don't see how you can 'practice' making your opponents clump up ... you legitimately can't land more than 1, maybe 2 w's against half-decent players You don't need to practice making players clump up; the radius of W is 500 units and that's only 100 less than the big ass midnight pulse. How many team fights have you seen players actively staying more 500 units away from each other against WW? It's just the nature of team fights that people do come closer, especially with lineups that rely on follow-ups after an initiation like centaur etc. That's almost like saying that it's rare to land a a black hole on more than 2 players in pro games. W contributes more than half of WW's output in a team fight hands down, not to mention the synergy with ult. 20 seconds CD for Q at any team fight at level 7 is already severely limiting your output. The only time W seems obviously bad is when you're going for a gank on a single target with your team or hamper your ability to solo roam early. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
the point is ur not going to reliably get more than one, maybe two shards generally the entire creep wave is dead and heroes have already started dying by the second shards | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 18 2015 12:33 Dead9 wrote: u realize 500 radius is 30% less area than 600 radius the point is ur not going to reliably get more than one, maybe two shards generally the entire creep wave is dead and heroes have already started dying by the second shards That's like saying Dragon Salve is useless if you only hit one enemy hero. Either way you cut it the dmg, even against 1 target, is a lot for a support's nuke. There's also of plenty of other spells considered good/fine that have a similar AoE radius. Fade bolt, for example, jumps at 440 range, Lich's Ult is 575, Weave is only 575 as well, and Crystal Nova is 400 radius. Yet all of those spells are commonly landed in situations where they jump or hit multiple targets. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
you're giving up a ton of uptime and range on q. the extra slow isn't exactly negligible either w max is pretty much only stronger if you're having gigantic teamfights 10 minutes into the game | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6230 Posts
Realistically you should be able to hit at least 3 heroes in 2 shards without any problems, especially when your ult guarantees at least 1-2. That's about 900 magic damage, which is very likely to be more than you get going from 1Q to 4Q. If it's a solo pickoff kind of game then yeah obviously W doesn't do much, but if there are fights of like 3 heroes a side then it's usually going to be more damage. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
in both of those situations max q is usually stronger since you can reliably and repeatedly initiate/counterinitiate by the time 5man happens both q and w are generally maxed or almost maxed anyway | ||
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Nymzee
3929 Posts
i actually hope it gets added to CM before ti5, it would be amazing to see it tear apart the axe/bristle/jugg/troll meta | ||
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
cold embrace is SO strong and a lowish cooldown ult that pierces BKB is super useful even without the "make your allies attack you" part | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Nymzee
3929 Posts
On February 19 2015 20:49 Torte de Lini wrote: I think getting an Urn of Shadows is a nice touch to Winter Wyvern's arsenal. yes i normally get brown boots > urn > tranqs > euls > blink mostly because then you have pretty great MS and you never have mana issues and the ultimate, as said, even without the "allies attack you" part is super strong. it's a 3 second BKB piercing stun lol | ||
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United States7542 Posts
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1950 Posts
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eieio
United States14512 Posts
I'm trending towards value points in Q and E followed by W max and basically Nymzee's item build. Definitely like tranqs urn and euls for core items On February 20 2015 02:13 Logo wrote: It's better than a 3 second BKB piercing Stun because it also makes a 350 radius area that the enemy team cannot walk into. yeah the point is that a 3 second BKB piercing stun on its own is already really useful, the fact that it also makes their allies attack them is just a bonus a lot of the time. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 20 2015 02:19 eieio wrote: E is ridiculous but I don't think you need more than 1 point in it early. Definitely want that value point though, agreed. I'm trending towards value points in Q and E followed by W max and basically Nymzee's item build. Definitely like tranqs urn and euls for core items yeah the point is that a 3 second BKB piercing stun on its own is already really useful, the fact that it also makes their allies attack them is just a bonus a lot of the time. Yeah the scaling of E is really poor early on. When heroes have like 1k hp it's only ~40hp per rank (or 120 for the 3 ranks) of the spell which isn't strong scaling. Rank 1 on a 1k hp target already does 200 hp healing compared to 320 for rank 4. Perhaps in some odd edge case it could be pretty interesting. Maybe if you were going all in on an early game strategy using a hero like Death Prophet it could work (in general actually DP + WW seems like it'd be a fun synergy). | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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Nymzee
3929 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
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