EPT[Hero] Winter Wyvern - Page 8
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Excalibur_Z
United States12237 Posts
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
That being said there is no reason to skip a point in Cold Embrace. The heal and ability to block all physical damage is way too useful to ever outright skip. Doubly so for early engagements in lane. Also Arctic Burn is overrated by a lot of people. For the most part after the initial hit it's nothing more than a glorified take aim. Sure a shorter cooldown and lower mana cost is nice, but when compared to how much damage you get out of Splinter Blast the choice is usually pretty obvious. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
Q and particularly Q max is massively overvalued. You get the bulk of the utility and damage from the first point, especially considering WW's abysmal autoattack stats. The CD is only relevant in-lane, and by the time you're level 5/7 the laning stage is almost over. Post-laning there's barely any difference between levels 1 and 4. In fact, really there are like a handful of situations where an early Q max is useful outside lane: - You need to be ridiculously far back from teamfights - You need to apply the buff on a lot of enemy heroes and can't already do so with 7/800 range - A 25% slow from smoke break range will consistently create kills - Engagements are long enough that the 20s CD lets you get off two cycles in a teamfight All of those are really edge cases at level 7, and in most of them you would probably get more damage landing a maxed W anyway. Anyone who thinks W sucks needs to learn to place the skill; I feel like using it well is one of the more challenging aspects to playing Auroth, but it is an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage on a crazy short CD even if it only hits a couple of targets. | ||
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Gowerly
United Kingdom916 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 16 2015 22:52 Gowerly wrote: Could you actually just jungle from level 1 with your W? similar to how CM would do it, just with pots instead of the mana regen aura. Or is WW worth way more in lane at early levels? eh the reason CM can jungle lvl 1 is not because of her brilliance aura, but because her frostbite lets her reliably kill even the biggest creeps at lvl 1. for WW, you would need to get a decent stack for it to be anywhere close to efficient, and even then lvl 1 splinter just doesnt do enough damage (you have about enough mana to cast splinter 3 times) | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 16 2015 23:02 ahswtini wrote: eh the reason CM can jungle lvl 1 is not because of her brilliance aura, but because her frostbite lets her reliably kill even the biggest creeps at lvl 1. for WW, you would need to get a decent stack for it to be anywhere close to efficient, and even then lvl 1 splinter just doesnt do enough damage (you have about enough mana to cast splinter 3 times) It's also just a totally different situation. CM sort of has to jungle from level 1 because she jungles creeps individually. She only gets good xp from doing it if she's doing it constantly through the laning phase. WW can stack and clear later on because she clears a camp at the same speed regardless of if it's 1 stack or 3. In that respect she's more like a Sand King than Crystal Maiden except WW has the luxury of applying more harassment to a lane than Sand King (probably less kill potential though). | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
the stuff you're talking about (landing q on more targets, initiating from smoke) aren't exactly edge cases. 3 points in q is actually just enough so you can initiate from smoke and slow them with q, then r someone, and it's generally enough to hit most targets in teamfights, but i like to get the 4th point anyway cus i like flying over trees and stuff w max is still generally stronger in midgame teamfights but if you don't get at least a few points in q your laning is just complete garbage. the cd reduction is also situationally nice for fights, since u can get in position before fights break out (into trees is pretty strong early game) and fly over stuff to get places (stealing runes is really funny) | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
also idk why farming the hard camp is even brought up. 'farming' the hard camp involves investing 800g into a soul ring and/or blowing a ton of time clearing the camp. and this is ON TOP OF the time you spend stacking the camp instead of pulling for money/exp or leeching exp in lane. if anything you want to stack the hard camp for you carry, then leech exp or farm the lane while they clear it, and neither of those require max w. w's seriously such a garbage ability. 3~4 points into q first is the way to go. w is an 'aoe' nuke with 7s cd, but in reality you're rarely going to be landing it on more than 1~2 heroes, and generally by the time the cd is up the entire creep wave will be dead. if you're landing it more than once, maybe twice it's mostly on your opponents clumping really hard | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On February 17 2015 21:04 Kreb wrote: This hero isnt a sand king or something who almost becomes a new hero with a core item (blink). If you're stacking, you should leave it to your carry if you wanna play it "right". Sure its pubs and everyone does their own shit so you taking out a stack is hardly a big crime in the big picture. But that doesnt change the fact its "wrong" and its only your own greed talking to you if you try to justify it to yourself. Theres plenty of supports who can clear stacks (jakiro, lesh, etc....) but no one would ever expect any of them to take carry stacks. WW is no different. Jakiro and lesh clearing stacks now, really? not that I encourage WW to head into the jungle to stack, but WW with a fast blink is actually a game winning hero in many situations. Blink on WW feels pretty core to me; sometimes there's only that split second that enemies clump such that a well placed ult just takes out a vital hero from their hero's auto attacks alone. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On February 17 2015 23:03 Oktyabr wrote: Jakiro and lesh clearing stacks now, really? not that I encourage WW to head into the jungle to stack, but WW with a fast blink is actually a game winning hero in many situations. Blink on WW feels pretty core to me; sometimes there's only that split second that enemies clump such that a well placed ult just takes out a vital hero from their hero's auto attacks alone. Jakiro is one of the best at it? Lvl 1 ult all you need and its super fast. Can be done with his Q/E too but takes some time. Leshs whole arsenal is AoE, can be done with anything except W max. I mean kotl could clear super good too (actually a descent jungler). SD has super cheap clear with poison. CM can use lvl 1 ult. Undy can clear with tomb/Q. Hell even a hero like abaddon could run into a stack with soul ring at lvl 6-7, blow 3-4 shield and ult to clear. I could go on... Ands that my point, no one does it. But many can. Theres so many supports who can, some are even better than cores at doing so. Jakiro could outfarm most cores if built for it. But I doubt anyone can show me a pro game where a support gets stack priority over a core. SK would be an exception, there might be more but blink on SK is obviously incredibly important and has higher priority than many cores' items. If you wanna give supports gold/exp you either have them sit next to a core as they clear jungle/ancient stacks (happens plenty of times in pro games) or you give them a lane as a core either transitions into roaming around or into jungle (happens all the time too). Stacking for supports does NOT happen all the time, quite the opposite. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 17 2015 20:52 Dead9 wrote: because q is much stronger during laning also idk why farming the hard camp is even brought up. 'farming' the hard camp involves investing 800g into a soul ring and/or blowing a ton of time clearing the camp. and this is ON TOP OF the time you spend stacking the camp instead of pulling for money/exp or leeching exp in lane. if anything you want to stack the hard camp for you carry, then leech exp or farm the lane while they clear it, and neither of those require max w. w's seriously such a garbage ability. 3~4 points into q first is the way to go. w is an 'aoe' nuke with 7s cd, but in reality you're rarely going to be landing it on more than 1~2 heroes, and generally by the time the cd is up the entire creep wave will be dead. if you're landing it more than once, maybe twice it's mostly on your opponents clumping really hard W isn't strong because it's an AoE nuke. It's strong because it's a 340 magic dmg nuke on a 7s CD. Even if you only hit one hero with the nuke it's still capable of changing the fight. To me the Q changes how you can engage in fights. There's a lot of choked areas that are just really difficult to fight in if WW is nuking from the back line and you can't get in on her. The nuke sort of reminds me of Blood Rite in that it doesn't necessarily land all that often for big damage, but it forces certain terms of the fight and you can exploit those terms to win the fight none the less. Especially given WW's other abilities that also exert a lot of control on the fight. Theres so many supports who can, some are even better than cores at doing so. Jakiro could outfarm most cores if built for it. But I doubt anyone can show me a pro game where a support gets stack priority over a core. SK would be an exception, there might be more but blink on SK is obviously incredibly important and has higher priority than many cores' items. Chen, Enchantress, Enigma, and CM all also play around with using the jungle without being cores in their own right. The thing about WW, especially in a trilane, is your main contribution early on is bullying people away with Arctic Chill. Once you pop the cooldown there's not necessarily a huge reason to hang around the lane; especially if your other support is ranged committing 2 people to zoning out the offlaner is silly. That frees one of you (or both if the enemy offlane is back or has abandoned the lane) to stack and/or pull. In such cases it totally makes sense for WW to do something like clear the stacks at 5 so she can get level 6 to be a stronger presence on the map without taking XP from a core. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
look have you guys actually played this hero? shards is much weaker than q. you can max it first and do alright (it's pretty strong for counterpushing. but then again so is q) but generally q is stronger and have you tried clearing stacks with w? because it's a MASSIVE time sink, especially since you've already hit 7 and you could be killing people with your ult. 'oh but you can clear it after you gank someone' no you can't because it takes your entire mana pool. 'oh just buy a soul ring' ok now you're out 800 gold and i doubt you have a 6stack on the hard camp. on top of that you have to farm up to soul ring before you can clear it.. 'but wait it's for the exp' then why wouldn't you just let your carry take it while you leech? farm on this hero is nice but not a necessity. a medallion/blink is great and all but all your spells have ridiculous range so it's not really that big of a deal if you don't have them | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 18 2015 06:06 Dead9 wrote: blood rite is much more devastating than shards... look have you guys actually played this hero? shards is much weaker than q. you can max it first and do alright (it's pretty strong for counterpushing. but then again so is q) but generally q is stronger and have you tried clearing stacks with w? because it's a MASSIVE time sink, especially since you've already hit 7 and you could be killing people with your ult. 'oh but you can clear it after you gank someone' no you can't because it takes your entire mana pool. 'oh just buy a soul ring' ok now you're out 800 gold and i doubt you have a 6stack on the hard camp. on top of that you have to farm up to soul ring before you can clear it.. 'but wait it's for the exp' then why wouldn't you just let your carry take it while you leech? farm on this hero is nice but not a necessity. a medallion/blink is great and all but all your spells have ridiculous range so it's not really that big of a deal if you don't have them I don't doubt that shards is weaker than q in some ways, but I don't think the additional levels of q matter as much as being able to dump mana during a fight with a strong w. Especially in the mid-game when the order actually matters (instead of when you are 4-4-1), enemies tend to have lower mobility and no bkbs; during that time the extra 100 range and CD reduction can be irrelevant in many situations. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
Even so, the fact remains that everything you want to do with Q in an early fight, you can do with level 1. If you manage the CD and your positioning you can still get the debuff off fine, while also having a 340 damage nuke on a 7 second CD. More levels certainly give ease-of-use, but ease-of-use is a damn luxury as a pos 5. That stuff becomes more important as cores get scarier and big teamfights start happening, which usually lines up with level 8-11 where you're going to finish maxing it anyway. Realistically neither order is going to lose you the game, but I would rather practice landing W and positioning at lower levels of Q than just max Q every game. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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