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Like many great poets, Auroth just wants time to write, but the Winter Wyvern's life is full of interruptions. The epics of the Eldwurms have a long and colorful history, but some fear that the remaining dragon scholars are not as prolific as they once were, with few lines added to the Eldwurm Eddas since the last age of greatness. Auroth laments: "We forget that there is more to life than triumph and dominion over enemies. We must also live our lives in the pursuit of creative expression." She embarks on research expeditions, collecting books for inspiration. But all this research can be terribly distracting, and she spends less time writing than she should. Although she knows she should be lurking in her lair, adding to the Eddas, she finds herself engaged in epic battles against powerful enemies. She loots castles, raids ancient libraries ... and if she happens to heap glory on herself in the process, she tells herself that it's merely a side effect of her research. The fact is, while her skill and power on the battlefield are legendary, her scholarly travails have thus far hardly been the stuff of literary acclaim. But she is not content to stand as a protagonist of heroic lore. She wishes also to create it.
Since WW is supposed to be coming out like today or tomorrow I figured we needed a thread to discuss her. I'm assuming most people here never played her in WC3 Dota, but if you did feel free to share insight.
For basic info like abilities and base stats etc, check out the Liquipedia page :
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/4/4a/Winter_Wyvern_icon.png)  Winter Wyvern
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From what I can tell (and I've never played the hero), I think the plan is something like q/e/w/w/w/r/w then what you max next might be situational depending on how offensive or defensive you need to be.
Basically use Q in lane to harass and even kill if you have a strong partner, E to save partner etc, and W is basically only good at near-melee range until you have ult (unless you have a strong disabling lanemate).
Once you have ult, keep in mind that it's often better to ult the support that you don't care about rather than the carry that you do since both will be disabled but ulting the carry results in the supports team-fragging whereas ulting somebody else results in the carry team-fragging which is much better once he has some damage going. Your W is your main source of damage but again you don't always want to throw it at the ulted target. Sometimes you need to throw it at a taunted target instead to ensure that you can kill the ulted guy. In case it isn't clear, it does NOT damage the primary target. Which makes it hella bad for lane harass without like a bane or w/e btw.
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United States47024 Posts
Splinter Blast is super unwieldy because of how slow it moves.
It is, however, both an amazing stack-farming skill and an amazing anti-push skill.
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SoCal8910 Posts
what position is winter wyvern played as?
what kind of items should I look to pick up?
what are her strongest allies and strongest foes?
I plan on playing her a bunch over the break I'd love to hear more!.
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340 damage in 500 aoe on a 7s cooldown is nuts
but yes just reading how slow it moves etc it's only marginally faster than skywrath's q but dodgeable so yikes.
I mean, you could argue for a q-max build to maximize your uptime and range but that seems like a waste of both farming ability and kill potential.
If the target of the splinter blast dies (like say u target a creep and it dies to tower or w/e) the blast continues to the corpse and explodes on that right?
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United States47024 Posts
4 or 5, she doesn't really have a ton of particular benefit from items, but she really wants levels pretty badly, and again, she farms stacks really fast cuz Splinter Blast has high damage on low CD.
There's no item that stands out as particularly amazing for her. You can usually just get Arcanes (or Tranq+Eul if you're greedier since it's better for stack-farming mana usage patterns) and then buy standard support crap.
On February 13 2015 02:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
340 damage in 500 aoe on a 7s cooldown is nuts
but yes just reading how slow it moves etc it's only marginally faster than skywrath's q but dodgeable so yikes.
It's not actually as slow as the raw speed on the description indicates--1.35s maximum travel time almost always kicks in if you cast it at any reasonable range.
1.35s delay is still super slow, though.
On February 13 2015 02:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
If the target of the splinter blast dies (like say u target a creep and it dies to tower or w/e) the blast continues to the corpse and explodes on that right?
Yes.
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Interestingly, if a unit starts at the exact same location as the primary target, it needs to generate 370 units of separation per second to escape the blast. Now, with 2 units able to move, the delta split factor does come into play here, and obviously no units ever start truly stacked on top of each other, but that does sound a bit hopeful once you factor in reaction time etc. Not to mention ur 25-40% slow from autos based on ur Q.
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I'm getting the feeling her Q is actually really, really broken. Like, fuck-synergy levels of broken. It might be the ability you want to max first. Keep in mind that at level 4, it will break at the same time smoke does (well, okay, Smoke breaks 25 range further away, but are you really going to quibble about that?).
W seems needlessly clunky, but it ought to be decently safe source of damage. The safe bet is on maxing it first, but I think we'll end up maxing it second.
The E seems like a much better ability lategame, where it essentially functions as Ethereal Blade Plus in terms of defense.
Ult is pretty obvious in how amazing it is. Can't wait to see her comboed with Dark Seer for a makeshift Black Hole on a 70 second cooldown. This is the ability we will see punishing poor support positioning.
As for items... I'd expect her to get a fast Eul's. She could do with the mana regen and movespeed, and the toss-up is just generally good. Force Staff is also strong, of course, and possibly she'd run an Orchid or something like that. Mask of Madness might even be an effective option. I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
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the thing is u really don't need dark seer to make the ult a black hole.
W is very clunky for sure but the damage is really hard to pass up imo. we'll see.
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On February 13 2015 02:54 Acritter wrote:
possibly she'd run an Orchid or something like that. Mask of Madness might even be an effective option. I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
no stahp
attackspeed is NOT GOOD on ww. its terribad
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Yeah, but with Wall of Replica and shit, it gets even cooler.
No pun intended.
Ha, fuck that. Pun completely intended.
Really, though, I think she'd work best alongside pickoff heroes. Like, combining her with LC seems really strong. LC Duels, and the other team runs in to try and help... right? Nah. Makes for a really unpleasant situation.
On February 13 2015 02:59 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:54 Acritter wrote:
possibly she'd run an Orchid or something like that. Mask of Madness might even be an effective option. I wouldn't be surprised one bit. no stahp attackspeed is NOT GOOD on ww. its terribad
LOL
Have you ever tried the hero? Have you even thought about how good it would be to, say, put her Q debuff on multiple enemy heroes?
pls do not talk shit until you have tried
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u hab 1000 range. literally more than sniper.
i'm sure u can get off 1 auto on each hero necessary. especially with a .1 attackpoint. and refresh it on the relevant hero too.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 03:00 Acritter wrote:
LOL
Have you ever tried the hero? Have you even thought about how good it would be to, say, put her Q debuff on multiple enemy heroes?
pls do not talk shit until you have tried
Base AS lets you hit 4 targets during the duration, and you can't apply the debuff to any given target more than once during the cast.
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That's exactly what makes MoM so good though. You have infinite range and shitty native movespeed. You can attack whatever the fuck you want, and you can do it safely, too.
What other item are you going to get for that price point that will do so much to complement that ability?
On February 13 2015 03:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:00 Acritter wrote:
LOL
Have you ever tried the hero? Have you even thought about how good it would be to, say, put her Q debuff on multiple enemy heroes?
pls do not talk shit until you have tried Base AS lets you hit 4 targets during the duration, and you can't apply the debuff to any given target more than once during the cast.
Does base MS let you do that?
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if with 1k range u somehow can't hit baddies u might as well buy drums instead of mom. and drums suck.
But force/blink are in general strong items on WW I think in order to get a good ult off since semi-smart opponents wont position themselves within 350 range of multiple allies if they know ur near. 800 range ult means that u will continue to be in range for ur autos no problem.
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United States47024 Posts
No, but you have zero use for lifesteal and questionable use for AS, so why would you get MoM for MS over something like Eul's that gives you MS alongside actually useful stats.
You get Arctic Burn for 6 out of 20s, and you go back to your normal shit attack range after that. The skill won't make you into a secondary autoattack DPS point, and MoM is essentially an empty item slot after those 6 seconds.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rTSezIi.png)
This is a rough facsimile of the top lane. Here we see the enemy carry farming with two supports standing behind. It may just be one, but you get the idea. It's nighttime, as it should be when you're ganking with the Wyvern. Also pictured are your two allies, but their positioning is irrelevant. You initiate with your Q and attack the carry. With no MoM, if the supports determine that the carry is just going to die (say, you have 2 cores 1 support doing the gank), they can run away. You aren't fast enough to catch them, ever. If, on the other hand, you do have MoM, they can't run away, because you have 435 movespeed. This limits their options significantly, as I need not make you aware, and limiting options is generally a very good thing. Drums of Endurance increase your movement speed to 385, which can be escaped from when they have a head start like that. In addition, you can start from out of range of their vision and move yourself up to a position where you can see teleports coming in at their T1 within the duration of the Q.
On February 13 2015 03:13 TheYango wrote:
No, but you have zero use for lifesteal and questionable use for AS, so why would you get MoM for MS over something like Eul's that gives you MS alongside actually useful stats.
You get Arctic Burn for 6 out of 20s, and you go back to your normal shit attack range after that. The skill won't make you into a secondary autoattack DPS point, and MoM is essentially an empty item slot after those 6 seconds.
Because there's no better item for that kind of movespeed, plain and simple. And you'll note that I did, in fact, mention Eul's: I just think that MoM will also see use.
I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't think anyone will get MoM on the hero a few months from now, but that'll be because Arctic Burn was nerfed hard.
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United States47024 Posts
Or you have Blink Dagger, Blink up, and hit them each once. And the Blink Dagger happens to be a more useful item in literally every other conceivable scenario.
EDIT: Are you perhaps reading the incorrect DotA 2 Wiki description that says you can attack the same target and refresh the burn duration, rather than the PlayDotA/Liquipedia description that correctly says that the debuff does not reapply to the same target once you've hit them once?
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Yup, Blink will probably be used. You're right that it's the default item to get on every hero in the game. But still, MoM does in fact have some merit to it.
No, Yango, I heard you the first time. At this point, let's just wait and see. Blink'll probably be the build of choice to start, because you can escape into the trees, but I do think we'll see some MoM builds showing up.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 03:27 Acritter wrote:
No, Yango, I heard you the first time.
Ok, cuz i just realized Sn0's earlier post said something about reapplying it to the relevant target, when there's no option to reapply it.
It's why attack speed is pointless, because after hitting each target once, you go back to your regular shitty autoattacks.
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Yup. And I think you both are still thinking of her as pure support, while my opinion is she's probably an offlane or mid (though both will require some amount of support via bottlecrow and pooling).
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28089 Posts
I didn't even know of this hero until the announcement (didn't play dota 1 or anything like that). Out of all the remaining heroes still not in the game this one hasn't been mentioned much 
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United States47024 Posts
She actually verifiably blows at mid, because a hero with 38-45 base damage (Sniper/Invoker/no-stacks SF-level awful base damage) and 425 base range is virtually un-laneable.
On February 13 2015 03:32 TheEmulator wrote:I didn't even know of this hero until the announcement (didn't play dota 1 or anything like that). Out of all the remaining heroes still not in the game this one hasn't been mentioned much
Because she's not bullshit like Zet or Pitlord lol.
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u don't do shit with levels OR items tho and ur amazingly bad at getting anything out of the offlane too.
It's like worse than putting bane mid because bane mid actually has some upside.
On February 13 2015 03:32 TheEmulator wrote:I didn't even know of this hero until the announcement (didn't play dota 1 or anything like that). Out of all the remaining heroes still not in the game this one hasn't been mentioned much
everybody just wants to try zet aka double all items :3
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 03:33 Sn0_Man wrote:
It's like worse than putting bane mid because bane mid actually has some upside.
You mean like how Bane mid wins 99% of lanes and doesn't have no-stack SF-level base damage?
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That's because nobody has played her. Introduced at the same time as Arc Warden, and not as obviously broken as him. Same fate as we'd see for Windrunner, as she was eclipsed by Tauren Chieftain (Elder Titan). None of the older players are nostalgic about her because they didn't grow up with her, and none of the newer players know a damned thing about her.
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United States47024 Posts
You say this like the Chinese pub DotA 1 scene isn't alive and well and hasn't played her plenty since her release.
She's not popular, but it's also not true that nobody's played her or that she hasn't been played enough to have some basic idea of what's good and bad (although obviously this can still miss stuff like Sleight-max first item BF Ember not being a big thing until the hero hit DotA 2).
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On February 13 2015 03:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:33 Sn0_Man wrote:
It's like worse than putting bane mid because bane mid actually has some upside. You mean like how Bane mid wins 99% of lanes and doesn't have no-stack SF-level base damage?
and how Bane actually scales fairly open-endedly with items (a mobility item, a mana item, bkb and necro are all big impact), can't get farm without having a lane to farm (like mid), and can dominate the early-midgame with fast levels and a fast mobility item against unprepared opponents. All distinctly opposite to WW.
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On February 13 2015 03:33 TheYango wrote:She actually verifiably blows at mid, because a hero with 38-45 base damage (Sniper/Invoker/no-stacks SF-level awful base damage) and 425 base range is virtually un-laneable. Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:32 TheEmulator wrote:I didn't even know of this hero until the announcement (didn't play dota 1 or anything like that). Out of all the remaining heroes still not in the game this one hasn't been mentioned much Because she's not bullshit like Zet or Pitlord lol.
She does, however, have a pretty solid farming ability on a low cooldown that punishes melee heroes. Will she be beaten horribly by Viper? Yes. But against any of the greedier melee mids... not so clear. That's a solid niche.
On February 13 2015 03:36 TheYango wrote:
You say this like the Chinese pub DotA 1 scene isn't alive and well and hasn't played her plenty since her release.
She's not popular, but it's also not true that nobody's played her or that she hasn't been played enough to have some basic idea of what's good and bad (although obviously this can still miss stuff like Sleight-max first item BF Ember not being a big thing until the hero hit DotA 2).
Then just copy their strategy guides, and it's pretty obvious I meant nobody around here. The topic was why nobody around here seems to have heard of her, and I think you agree with my reason for that.
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United States47024 Posts
It barely punishes melee heroes because it doesn't allow her to threaten a kill, she does no follow-up autoattack damage, and has too weak of base damage to deny creeps, so she has a farm-off against greedier heroes at best, which they obviously win because almost all such greedier heroes scale better than she does.
Having a cost-efficient AoE nuke doesn't constitute "punishing" greedy melee mids, that's why 90% of those heroes just farm off against each other, and she's not any more dangerous to them than they are to each other while scaling worse than pretty much all of them.
EDIT: You could honestly compare it to mid KotL, which is actually completely terrible, but he's STILL actually a better laner than WW is because he's a 600 range hero with better base damage and MS, and has infinite mana inherently.
Offlane--well, Jakiro offlane was possible for a while, so who the fuck knows. Liquid Fire is a way better skill for trading/harassment than Splinter Blast, though. I think it's bad, but it's probably less bad than putting her mid, honestly, lol. You really need supports to give you hard camp stacks to catch-up farm with Splinter Blast, though.
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What sort of supports does she pair well with? Is she typically an aggressive kill seeking hero in lane or one that ends up playing more defensively? It seems hard to get a read on how she's going to function in lane.
As an offlaner how do you work around her? The Q, while a long cooldown, seems terrifying in it's potential to just sap a ton of health off with a single auto-attack and the ability to follow that attack up with more because of her 700 range and 25% slow.
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Well you are going to need to bring an unreasonable amount of regen to lane vs a WW since she'll burn u for about 1/4 of current (not max) HP every minute. Outside of that, ur going to have a rough time trading/killing against her heal but unless her partner is seriously strong, she has quite limited kill potential if you play smart.
You just have to force them to pop their Q at a time when there's no kill potential so that she can't slow you at a bad time. Without popping Q, ww doesn't actually do anything to you with shit range, shit damage, shit speed and an unlandable nuke so just force Q at bad times and then regen up and enjoy ur minute against a useless hero. And um, don't get disabled near a target for W (aka creeps) since that skill may be unlandable but the damage is nuts.
And if you go for some sort of aggressive lane or w/e, try to pack magic/pure damage not physical since WW's heal stops all phys dmg.
Lots of stuff pairs well with WW tbh. Something with a silence or stun to stop escape mechanisms (and tps) is nice but not that necessary. Soemthing with big AoE disable to help ur Splinter Blast hit is great but not necessary (and i mean, who DOESN'T pair well with big aoe disable? ). You aren't like a mirana who specifically pairs with setup abilities etc.
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I've used the hero long ago in the past but i was strategically stupid back then.
Can somebody tell me what's the role of this hero and what lineups he is theoretically good against and bad against? (i have little knowledge about the hero)
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On February 13 2015 04:14 goody153 wrote:
I've used the hero long ago in the past but i was strategically stupid back then.
Can somebody tell me what's the role of this hero and what lineups he is theoretically good against and bad against?
HARD SUPPORT
good vs clumpy low-mobility melee lineups, physical burst initiation like LC, and people who are dumb and stand next to each other. Very strong in lane I think.
good with: lots of stuff. Notably big aoe disable like chrono/ravage but who isn't right. She only has one brief disable then some passable but not great slows so the more disable your team can pile on (even just additional slow) the better. She doesn't really need single target disable like bane though.
Bad against: high mobility high range lineups. Stuff like drow-based lineups with 4 or 5 high-range heroes that you can't catch multiple of in ur ult, fast heroes that are hard to hit with your W, heroes that can interact with you at big range because you generally cast spells and attack at 800-1000 range in fights. Q/W invoker, sniper, AA. WW doesn't interact well with like a tide blink ravaging you but does interact well with too many low-mobility melee heroes who can't all close without u ulting multiple of them so theres a balance there.
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On February 13 2015 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:14 goody153 wrote:
I've used the hero long ago in the past but i was strategically stupid back then.
Can somebody tell me what's the role of this hero and what lineups he is theoretically good against and bad against? HARD SUPPORT good vs clumpy low-mobility melee lineups, physical burst initiation like LC, and people who are dumb and stand next to each other. Very strong in lane I think. good with: lots of stuff. Notably big aoe disable like chrono/ravage but who isn't right. She only has one brief disable then some passable but not great slows so the more disable your team can pile on (even just additional slow) the better. She doesn't really need single target disable like bane though. Bad against: high mobility high range lineups. Stuff like drow-based lineups with 4 or 5 high-range heroes that you can't catch multiple of in ur ult, fast heroes that are hard to hit with your W, heroes that can interact with you at big range because you generally cast spells and attack at 800-1000 range in fights. Q/W invoker, sniper, AA. WW doesn't interact well with like a tide blink ravaging you but does interact well with too many low-mobility melee heroes who can't all close without u ulting multiple of them so theres a balance there.
So he is like timbersaw and similar to skywrath as well that gets shit on by bkb. Except without the tankiness and the high mobility of timber ? ok ty ty
i actually thought the hero is a core. If he was added at CM how viable is the hero ?
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On February 13 2015 04:26 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:20 Sn0_Man wrote:On February 13 2015 04:14 goody153 wrote:
I've used the hero long ago in the past but i was strategically stupid back then.
Can somebody tell me what's the role of this hero and what lineups he is theoretically good against and bad against? HARD SUPPORT good vs clumpy low-mobility melee lineups, physical burst initiation like LC, and people who are dumb and stand next to each other. Very strong in lane I think. good with: lots of stuff. Notably big aoe disable like chrono/ravage but who isn't right. She only has one brief disable then some passable but not great slows so the more disable your team can pile on (even just additional slow) the better. She doesn't really need single target disable like bane though. Bad against: high mobility high range lineups. Stuff like drow-based lineups with 4 or 5 high-range heroes that you can't catch multiple of in ur ult, fast heroes that are hard to hit with your W, heroes that can interact with you at big range because you generally cast spells and attack at 800-1000 range in fights. Q/W invoker, sniper, AA. WW doesn't interact well with like a tide blink ravaging you but does interact well with too many low-mobility melee heroes who can't all close without u ulting multiple of them so theres a balance there. So he is like timbersaw and similar to skywrath as well that gets shit on by bkb. Except without the tankiness and the high mobility of timber ? ok ty ty i actually thought the hero is a core. If he was added at CM how viable is the hero ?
WW's ult pierces BKB so no, not quite the same.
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erm, not much like timbersaw no
nor skywrath
I'd describe the hero as a lot like an AA. Very non-standard damage output but can be very high, big range backliner, unique and powerful ultimate, very limited item requirements.
Not identical of course, but similar ish.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:28 Sn0_Man wrote:
erm, not much like timbersaw no
nor skywrath
I'd describe the hero as a lot like an AA. Very non-standard damage output but can be very high, big range backliner, unique and powerful ultimate, very limited item requirements.
Not identical of course, but similar ish.
That's the closest comparison I'd make, but even that's not that great because he has near-KotL level stack farming ability while AA can't farm for shit.
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like AA so he has unconventional way of dealing damage .. interesting.
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United States47024 Posts
Also, the comparison kind of sucks early because AA is a purely offensive support early game, while Wyvern's offensive ability without Arctic Burn off CD is near-zero, but he's a pretty good defensive support because of Cold Embrace.
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He's one of the weird heroes who is good at a lot of things but is not great at anything.
like WR, mirana or beast master ?
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United States47024 Posts
Beastmaster's not good at a lot of things, he's great at a few very specific things, lol.
Especially since the Axes damage type change made him way worse at one of the things he was sorta-ok-but-not-great at.
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What kinds of cores does she duo-lane well with?
She seems kind of weird in that she's a little defensive and a little suppressive, but not enough of either to really get the job done. Q is annoying but isn't going to be able to bully a lane out like silencer etc because she's useless for the other 54 seconds. Cold embrace is okay, I guess, but surely the other guys can just reposition around it and then kill the hero after? Plus it does nothing against magic initiation.
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WW synergizes well with Oracle
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United States47024 Posts
It's super awkward to have a support combo where between the two of them they only have one hard disable, though.
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Wait, why isn't Q maxed first? Now that I think about it, for engagements and ganks, the massive range from Q and the 40% slow is pretty incredible compared to a decent nuke that situationally good (if the enemy is alone, you won't do shit)
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United States47024 Posts
Because when you hit 7, you clear any decently-sized stack and instantly go up 1-2 more levels, lol.
Like, I guess you could max Arctic Burn first if you're gonna save stacks and shit for someone else to clear, but why the fuck would you do that in a pub.
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this hero is fun but like most supports you can't do shit if your cores are clueless
Also she wrecks PL
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On February 13 2015 09:17 TheYango wrote:
Because when you hit 7, you clear any decently-sized stack and instantly go up 1-2 more levels, lol.
Like, I guess you could max Arctic Burn first if you're gonna save stacks and shit for someone else to clear, but why the fuck would you do that in a pub.
On the other hand you could just help people kill stuff and be useful in lane. A.K.A play dota.
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You don't really need more than 1 point in burn to kill shit
It only lowers the cd and increases your attack range a bit, the nuke gives much better killing potential for further points
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
The nuke is unusable for ganking anywhere other than near a creep wave or a bunch of heroes. Plus it's hard to hit, sometimes enemy scatter in time. Manacost won't allow you to spam it that much either.
AB's increasing range and slow is important all the time, not to mention cooldown reduction from 50 to 20.
You can harass with it easier, slow is easier to hit, stronger, hits much faster and makes enemy anxious, because it is also a good setup for your allies. Plus it gives you an escape of some sort.
AB is more realiable all around. Except when you want to farm stacks or 5man fight all day.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 09:34 TomatoBisque wrote:
You don't really need more than 1 point in burn to kill shit
It only lowers the cd and increases your attack range a bit, the nuke gives much better killing potential for further points
Both of those are super significant, but you're going to be 1-1-1 at 3 regardless.
You could possibly get more out of Arctic Burn at 4/5, but it's kind of questionable because it's not like a straight-up nuke that also gives you more damage, it just makes the skill overall more comfortable to use. Once you hit 6, your ult guarantees Splinter Blast on everyone who's caught in it, so at that point, it's gonna be more effective thanks to being able to combo it together with your ulti.
IDK, you could make the "just go kill shit" argument with a ton of greedy supports like Sand King, but people definitely play the Sandstorm farming build a lot more these days even though Burrow max was the way to go for years.
Like, Arctic Burn is definitely the better fighting skill, I'm just not totally sold on just going to fight with the hero at level 4/5 rather than playing him a little greedier. Heroes with straight-up rank 3 nukes/hard disables are going to be better at doing that.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
played two games, laned with jugg in one, troll in another, pretty disgusting.
not sure whether to max arctic burn or splinter first....arctic burn doesn't seem to scale as well, but i find splinter unreliable to land. i like the idea of farming stacks with max splinter at lvl 7 though
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
On February 13 2015 09:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 09:34 TomatoBisque wrote:
You don't really need more than 1 point in burn to kill shit
It only lowers the cd and increases your attack range a bit, the nuke gives much better killing potential for further points Both of those are super significant, but you're going to be 1-1-1 at 3 regardless. You could possibly get more out of Arctic Burn at 4/5, but it's kind of questionable because it's not like a straight-up nuke that also gives you more damage, it just makes the skill overall more comfortable to use. Once you hit 6, your ult guarantees Splinter Blast on everyone who's caught in it, so at that point, it's gonna be more effective thanks to being able to combo it together with your ulti. IDK, you could make the "just go kill shit" argument with a ton of greedy supports like Sand King, but people definitely play the Sandstorm farming build a lot more these days even though Burrow max was the way to go for years. Like, Arctic Burn is definitely the better fighting skill, I'm just not totally sold on just going to fight with the hero at level 4/5 rather than playing him a little greedier. Heroes with straight-up rank 3 nukes/hard disables are going to be better at doing that.
The difference here is that you can either be useful on the map at level 4/5 or you can be in forest stacking.
You can do either, sometimes your team doesn't even need you to do anything at that time.
I would prefer trying to be useful early as WW if I would see any room for it, and I would prefer maxing AB first in that case.
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what's the point of splinter blast? this spell honestly seems garbage but i'm probably using it wrong, someone tell me what it's best use case scenario is. it's projectile speed is really slow to me.
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It's a lot of DPS on a short cooldown in teamfights, and the slow is non-trivial. You just kind of lob it into groups of enemies as often as it's up, ideally targeted on a creep or something. It's obviously pretty weak in pickoffs.
In other news, I cannot describe my wonder when I realised Auroth is a support who can fly to deward.
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I was long gone from wc3doto when this came out and I have no idea what the skills do.
Upon reading the ulti a huge grin morphed on my face, xD.
Oh boy, duel someone with lc then ulti from ww.
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It's like the most satisfying thing in the world to ult a Nyx or whatever that's been making your life hell, and then watch their carry just dismantle them.
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On February 13 2015 03:35 Acritter wrote:
That's because nobody has played her. Introduced at the same time as Arc Warden, and not as obviously broken as him. Same fate as we'd see for Windrunner, as she was eclipsed by Tauren Chieftain (Elder Titan). None of the older players are nostalgic about her because they didn't grow up with her, and none of the newer players know a damned thing about her.
Wasn't Windrunner released the same time as Kunkka
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On February 13 2015 09:01 TheYango wrote:
It's super awkward to have a support combo where between the two of them they only have one hard disable, though.
Can confirm, played a game recently with WW/Oracle as supports. We got strictly crushed in lanes and lost the early-midgame hard--then when the enemy team was pushing mid rax with aegis at 22 min we hit a good call -> winter's curse -> arctic burn to slow them all down so none of them can run away -> teamwipe which completely turned the game around. Once troll got farmed our teamfight was disgusting--troll is invulernable because of false promise, and global/call/curse messed them up super hard.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1233092317
Again though, if they hadn't thrown so hard by clumping during their GG push we would have lost the game in 30 minutes. Not a support combo I would pick in most games.
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She got a lot of buffs in 6.83c that weren't listed for some reason.
-Increased Arctic Burn slow duration from 4 to 5 to match the burn duration
-Arctic Burn now pierces Spell Immunity
-Arctic Burn now only gives bonus night vision for the cast duration instead of permanent when learned
-Splinter Blast is now blocked by Linken's Sphere (on the primary target only)
-Cold Embrace is now castable on spell immune allies
-Winter's Curse now fully pierces spell immunity and forces immune units to attack the cursed target
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On February 13 2015 17:02 Daralii wrote:
-Winter's Curse now fully pierces spell immunity and forces immune units to attack the cursed target
So it is actually ranged axe call targeting enemy and without the added armor. Quite scary.
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Heal looks like a 1 point wonder to me. I suppose I would max nuke then the first skill.
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On February 13 2015 18:35 robaq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 17:02 Daralii wrote:
-Winter's Curse now fully pierces spell immunity and forces immune units to attack the cursed target
So it is actually ranged axe call targeting enemy and without the added armor. Quite scary.
3 skills that totally ignore spell immunity and all 4 can't be dispelled by anything. She might be my new favorite support.
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All that techies, lc, tb hype has made me feel a little weird as of all heroes that were unreleased 2 years ago, this (and maybe phoenix) was the one I was waiting for the most, but few others seemed to care about her.
Anyway, I just like her skillset, and in particular the q seems to be of such incredible utility (actually I feel like the defensive aspect of flying movement and bonus nightvision on a 20 second cooldown have more or less been overlooked in the discussion so far). In general, the range of all spells looks great, so I would guess (though I have no experience as of yet), this hero can stay on the edge of teamfights, being useful without having to expose herself to the other team.
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On February 13 2015 16:41 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 09:01 TheYango wrote:
It's super awkward to have a support combo where between the two of them they only have one hard disable, though. Can confirm, played a game recently with WW/Oracle as supports. We got strictly crushed in lanes and lost the early-midgame hard--then when the enemy team was pushing mid rax with aegis at 22 min we hit a good call -> winter's curse -> arctic burn to slow them all down so none of them can run away -> teamwipe which completely turned the game around. Once troll got farmed our teamfight was disgusting--troll is invulernable because of false promise, and global/call/curse messed them up super hard. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1233092317Again though, if they hadn't thrown so hard by clumping during their GG push we would have lost the game in 30 minutes. Not a support combo I would pick in most games.
How did maxing W work out for you? Would you have preferred to max Q?
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This hero works so good with other heroes that can heal.
But he feels really week all in all. No laning presence, weak harass, low movement speed, low base dmg and no disables.+
Doubt he will be picked ever.
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On February 13 2015 19:31 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 16:41 xxpack09 wrote:On February 13 2015 09:01 TheYango wrote:
It's super awkward to have a support combo where between the two of them they only have one hard disable, though. Can confirm, played a game recently with WW/Oracle as supports. We got strictly crushed in lanes and lost the early-midgame hard--then when the enemy team was pushing mid rax with aegis at 22 min we hit a good call -> winter's curse -> arctic burn to slow them all down so none of them can run away -> teamwipe which completely turned the game around. Once troll got farmed our teamfight was disgusting--troll is invulernable because of false promise, and global/call/curse messed them up super hard. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1233092317Again though, if they hadn't thrown so hard by clumping during their GG push we would have lost the game in 30 minutes. Not a support combo I would pick in most games. How did maxing W work out for you? Would you have preferred to max Q?
Splinter Blast is such a great skill in lane, especially against short range heroes, I don't know why you would max Arctic Burn over it unless you were offlaning or something.
Random gyf of an Auroth + Ember rampage from Reddit: http://gfycat.com/BowedJointHackee
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On February 13 2015 19:56 toemn wrote:
This hero works so good with other heroes that can heal.
But he feels really week all in all. No laning presence, weak harass, low movement speed, low base dmg and no disables.+
Doubt he will be picked ever.
My entirely uninformed opinion is that other heroes have better lane harass, better neutral clearing, base damage, disables, etc... but they don't have Winter Wyvern's ult.
My feeling is that if WW is picked competitively it will be because a team wants her ultimate. The rest of her skillset isn't useless by any means but a stun of comparable length and AoE to Reverse Polarity, which causes your enemies to attack each other, at range, on a support is pretty respectable.
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On February 13 2015 20:14 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 19:56 toemn wrote:
This hero works so good with other heroes that can heal.
But he feels really week all in all. No laning presence, weak harass, low movement speed, low base dmg and no disables.+
Doubt he will be picked ever. My entirely uninformed opinion is that other heroes have better lane harass, better neutral clearing, base damage, disables, etc... but they don't have Winter Wyvern's ult. My feeling is that if WW is picked competitively it will be because a team wants her ultimate. The rest of her skillset isn't useless by any means but a stun of comparable length and AoE to Reverse Polarity, which causes your enemies to attack each other, at range, on a support is pretty respectable.
Enigma immediately comes to mind as a popular second support with her. Has plenty of room to farm since she doesn't need items at all and all her spells have a strong first point and great synergy with Winter's Curse.
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Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly.
they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it.
I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes.
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I think that her ulti is really really good, heal and block also, other two spells are so-so, kind of situational.
The thing is, I've played her yesterday, and for me she isn't fun to play almost at all, unlike some other supports.
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On February 13 2015 21:14 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly. they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it. I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes.
With Arcane, feels like there is no point in going Soul Ring then
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Winter Wyvern's INT growth is pretty solid; I think you can get away with Soulring Tranquils, though if you're going mek (not sure whether that's necessarily good, though) you probably want Arcanes.
I think it's a decision I'd make from game to game, depending on how badly my allies want Arcanes, how much farm I'm getting, etc.
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On February 13 2015 21:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I think that her ulti is really really good, heal and block also, other two spells are so-so, kind of situational.
The thing is, I've played her yesterday, and for me she isn't fun to play almost at all, unlike some other supports.
Her kit seems to be catered towards team fighting and not so much for ganking/roaming which i prefer to play in solo queue
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On February 13 2015 22:14 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 21:16 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I think that her ulti is really really good, heal and block also, other two spells are so-so, kind of situational.
The thing is, I've played her yesterday, and for me she isn't fun to play almost at all, unlike some other supports. Her kit seems to be catered towards team fighting and not so much for ganking/roaming which i prefer to play in solo queue
If you can coordinate you can probably roam decently well with a partner. Her and Skywrath would probably be a good duo.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2015 21:14 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly. they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it. I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes.
Tranq+SR farms better, Arcanes gives your team more if you're not farming that hard.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 13 2015 22:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 21:14 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly. they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it. I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes. Tranq+SR farms better, Arcanes gives your team more if you're not farming that hard.
even with points into e?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 13 2015 23:42 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 22:41 TheYango wrote:On February 13 2015 21:14 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly. they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it. I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes. Tranq+SR farms better, Arcanes gives your team more if you're not farming that hard. even with points into e?
what do you mean?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On February 14 2015 00:32 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:42 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 13 2015 22:41 TheYango wrote:On February 13 2015 21:14 BluemoonSC wrote:On February 13 2015 20:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
Arcane or Tranquil? I saw a lot of people go Phase which seems silly. they prolly saw waga do it and emulated it. I mean its good for chasing and applying the debuff but if you're supporting I don't see a purpose. I think arcanes mostly so you can farm stacks and solve your support mana woes. Tranq+SR farms better, Arcanes gives your team more if you're not farming that hard. even with points into e? what do you mean?
why get tranquils when you can heal yourself
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United States47024 Posts
Tranqs are still pretty cost-effective even discounting the regen component, and both of the stats are ones that WW needs pretty badly.
Your normal farming patterns aren't going to force you to heal yourself anyway, even without Tranqs, seeing as Splinter Blast has 1200 range, the only damage you'll take is the Soul Ring active, and natural HP regen + Soul Ring's own regen covers most of that.
EDIT: Also, apparently the calculations for Splinter Blast travel speed are super fucked right now and it has incorrect travel times against moving targets (it should never take more than 1.35s to reach the target, but against targets that move away from WW during the projectile's flight, it's taking more than that).
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On February 13 2015 19:31 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 16:41 xxpack09 wrote:On February 13 2015 09:01 TheYango wrote:
It's super awkward to have a support combo where between the two of them they only have one hard disable, though. Can confirm, played a game recently with WW/Oracle as supports. We got strictly crushed in lanes and lost the early-midgame hard--then when the enemy team was pushing mid rax with aegis at 22 min we hit a good call -> winter's curse -> arctic burn to slow them all down so none of them can run away -> teamwipe which completely turned the game around. Once troll got farmed our teamfight was disgusting--troll is invulernable because of false promise, and global/call/curse messed them up super hard. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1233092317Again though, if they hadn't thrown so hard by clumping during their GG push we would have lost the game in 30 minutes. Not a support combo I would pick in most games. How did maxing W work out for you? Would you have preferred to max Q?
Well, having 2 points in W by level 3 got me a kill on drow ranger that the team would have otherwise missed. I feel like as much as the cooldown of Q sucks, the damage from Splinter Blast is too good to ignore. Sure, it does very little away from creepwaves, but the huge range on your ult means you can effectively gank (at night especially) by ulting someone in a creepwave, hitting splinter blast, then arctic burning them down.
Not to mention, if you're at like half mana and going back to base, you can quickly farm a jungle camp on your way back, which is pretty nice.
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I'm not having a lot of success clearing stacks with splinter in pubs. Before level 7 you pretty much have to base halfway through to get more mana, and by the time you are level 7 as a 5th position your cores are usually interested in stacks themselves. It's not like sand king who can do hard stacks from level 3 while the cores are still in lane.
2/3 times I've tried it my team noticed and stole all the xp, and the third time I got murdered by a nyx. I shall persevere but I'm not sold.
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Yeah u need mana boots or a soul ring to clear stacks and level 7 as well I think.
I kinda tested it myself. However ur W is actually still a very strong kill spell in the right lane so w/e
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Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable
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On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable
She's the same speed as CM. Frosty beings unite
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On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable
Yeah, i did kinda like her skillset, but she's the kind of support that fells just to painful to play to be much fun for me.
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Just played my first game with her. Have to say that max splinter blast felt pretty good. I was low on mana, but as a support that isn't anything new.
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She's a really boring hero.
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Thank you for your input.
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Her skillset is pretty broken once she get some levels
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I have played her a couple of times and this is what i think:
q is very strong. Her best skill. Very strong in the laning face and very strong in lategame teamfights you can sit behind the fight and dish out damage.
w is quite weak. it is hard to land as it doesnt damage primary target. It is useful lategame in teamfights, but not very useful for ganks early.
e is good for sustain you can heal yourself or your teammates. I think soulring as first item is core on her, because of how much healing this does. By the way the tooltip is wrong it heals alot more than the tooltip says.
r the ulti is very weak. It is probably the hardest ulti to land a good one in the game. it is much harder than enigmas back hole or axe berserkers call. because with both of them you can put them between two heroes. with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
It is just very weak as an ulti in my opinion and needs a buff. It can work sometimes but against decent players they will know to spread out and make it useless.
I think it is best to max Q and then E and take ulti whenever you can.
I think you should build a soulring first along with support items. If you have the monies I think phaseboots are good and then go for attackdamage items like a maelstrom. You have 6 sec of 1000 attack range with your q. thats great in teamfights, you can go for a glasscanon build with it.
W and R are too unreliable that I rather take the reliable damage with Q and build up good autoattacks.
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On February 15 2015 02:52 MidnightFox wrote:
I have played her a couple of times and this is what i think:
q is very strong. Her best skill. Very strong in the laning face and very strong in lategame teamfights you can sit behind the fight and dish out damage.
w is quite weak. it is hard to land as it doesnt damage primary target. It is useful lategame in teamfights, but not very useful for ganks early.
e is good for sustain you can heal yourself or your teammates. I think soulring as first item is core on her, because of how much healing this does. By the way the tooltip is wrong it heals alot more than the tooltip says.
r the ulti is very weak. It is probably the hardest ulti to land a good one in the game. it is much harder than enigmas back hole or axe berserkers call. because with both of them you can put them between two heroes. with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
It is just very weak as an ulti in my opinion and needs a buff. It can work sometimes but against decent players they will know to spread out and make it useless.
I think it is best to max Q and then E and take ulti whenever you can.
I think you should build a soulring first along with support items. If you have the monies I think phaseboots are good and then go for attackdamage items like a maelstrom. You have 6 sec of 1000 attack range with your q. thats great in teamfights, you can go for a glasscanon build with it.
W and R are too unreliable that I rather take the reliable damage with Q and build up good autoattacks.
This advice seems awful to be perfectly frank. You're skipping a 340 damage nuke just because it's 'hard to hit.' That skill has more uses than any extra points in Embrace could possibly give you. It's especially good for counterpushes as it 1 shots the range creep at level 4.
That isn't even mentioning its use as a farming tool.
Also you don't understand how range in the game works. Ranges are based on radius.
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On February 15 2015 03:03 Jinxed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 02:52 MidnightFox wrote:
I have played her a couple of times and this is what i think:
q is very strong. Her best skill. Very strong in the laning face and very strong in lategame teamfights you can sit behind the fight and dish out damage.
w is quite weak. it is hard to land as it doesnt damage primary target. It is useful lategame in teamfights, but not very useful for ganks early.
e is good for sustain you can heal yourself or your teammates. I think soulring as first item is core on her, because of how much healing this does. By the way the tooltip is wrong it heals alot more than the tooltip says.
r the ulti is very weak. It is probably the hardest ulti to land a good one in the game. it is much harder than enigmas back hole or axe berserkers call. because with both of them you can put them between two heroes. with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
It is just very weak as an ulti in my opinion and needs a buff. It can work sometimes but against decent players they will know to spread out and make it useless.
I think it is best to max Q and then E and take ulti whenever you can.
I think you should build a soulring first along with support items. If you have the monies I think phaseboots are good and then go for attackdamage items like a maelstrom. You have 6 sec of 1000 attack range with your q. thats great in teamfights, you can go for a glasscanon build with it.
W and R are too unreliable that I rather take the reliable damage with Q and build up good autoattacks. This advice seems awful to be perfectly frank. You're skipping a 340 damage nuke just because it's 'hard to hit.' That skill has more uses than any extra points in Embrace could possibly give you. It's especially good for counterpushes as it 1 shots the range creep at level 4. That isn't even mentioning its use as a farming tool. Also you don't understand how range in the game works. Ranges are based on radius.
Explain how you think ranges work and do not just write that I don't understand how it works.
That is just an awful argument. To be frank.
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with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work. Radius =! Diameter. You're thinking 350 diameter, which means that because it's the distance between two opposite points on a circle, Wyvern's ult would only affect units up to 175 range away from the targeted unit, but radius is the distance between the center and any edge of a circle, not the distance between two opposite ends of a circle. Therefore, this spell has twice the AoE you believe it does.
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Ranges in the game are based on radius. That's literally what the range means. So if they are within 350 range, that means that they are within range.... not some weird thing where it's half or something.
You even say radius in the post. Like what more is there to say.
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You are just trolling me. My point was that the ulti is almost impossible to land and you are trolling me with technicalities.
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No, we're saying that you think the spell has half the AoE it actually does.
The spell has a radius from center of 350, and the diameter is 700.
You think it has a radius of 175, and a diameter of 350 because you confused the diameter the spell with the radius.
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I know that now thank you. But when you cast the spell you can clearly see, it is light blue, who is going to be affected. and because you have to target someone it is a very small aera that is affected.
If I say the area is about as big as hitting more than one with Sven's stormhammer is that correct?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 15 2015 02:52 MidnightFox wrote:
it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
does not compute
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On February 15 2015 03:28 MidnightFox wrote:
If I say the area is about as big as hitting more than one with Sven's stormhammer is that correct?
No, WW's ult literally has almost twice the AoE of Sven's storm hammer.
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wws ultis by far her best skill
its a 3s unchanneled black hole ..
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On February 14 2015 09:14 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable She's the same speed as CM. Frosty beings unite
The difference is WW has like 800+ range on all skills where CM has a range of 500 on her W and needs to get right in the middle of things to ult effectively. I don't find WW's lack of movespeed nearly as frustrating as CM's.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHSHSHSHAHAHAHAHAHH
User was warned for this post
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The scaling on Embrace is pretty bad imo, especially early game when people have like 1000HP, -1s cd and like +40HP healed is meh.
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On February 15 2015 05:19 TomatoBisque wrote:
The scaling on Embrace is pretty bad imo, especially early game when people have like 1000HP, -1s cd and like +40HP healed is meh.
early game 1k hp? woot. most heroes don't get 1k hp till well into mid game.
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On February 15 2015 02:52 MidnightFox wrote:
I have played her a couple of times and this is what i think:
q is very strong. Her best skill. Very strong in the laning face and very strong in lategame teamfights you can sit behind the fight and dish out damage.
w is quite weak. it is hard to land as it doesnt damage primary target. It is useful lategame in teamfights, but not very useful for ganks early.
e is good for sustain you can heal yourself or your teammates. I think soulring as first item is core on her, because of how much healing this does. By the way the tooltip is wrong it heals alot more than the tooltip says.
r the ulti is very weak. It is probably the hardest ulti to land a good one in the game. it is much harder than enigmas back hole or axe berserkers call. because with both of them you can put them between two heroes. with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
It is just very weak as an ulti in my opinion and needs a buff. It can work sometimes but against decent players they will know to spread out and make it useless.
I think it is best to max Q and then E and take ulti whenever you can.
I think you should build a soulring first along with support items. If you have the monies I think phaseboots are good and then go for attackdamage items like a maelstrom. You have 6 sec of 1000 attack range with your q. thats great in teamfights, you can go for a glasscanon build with it.
W and R are too unreliable that I rather take the reliable damage with Q and build up good autoattacks.
You max W over Q because it simply offers more versatility than your Q. In addition, the lower cooldown and larger damage let's you achieve more overall.
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On February 15 2015 05:39 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 02:52 MidnightFox wrote:
I have played her a couple of times and this is what i think:
q is very strong. Her best skill. Very strong in the laning face and very strong in lategame teamfights you can sit behind the fight and dish out damage.
w is quite weak. it is hard to land as it doesnt damage primary target. It is useful lategame in teamfights, but not very useful for ganks early.
e is good for sustain you can heal yourself or your teammates. I think soulring as first item is core on her, because of how much healing this does. By the way the tooltip is wrong it heals alot more than the tooltip says.
r the ulti is very weak. It is probably the hardest ulti to land a good one in the game. it is much harder than enigmas back hole or axe berserkers call. because with both of them you can put them between two heroes. with this one you target on hero and it has 350 radius. which means that two heroes needs to be 175 from each other for the ulti to work.
It is just very weak as an ulti in my opinion and needs a buff. It can work sometimes but against decent players they will know to spread out and make it useless.
I think it is best to max Q and then E and take ulti whenever you can.
I think you should build a soulring first along with support items. If you have the monies I think phaseboots are good and then go for attackdamage items like a maelstrom. You have 6 sec of 1000 attack range with your q. thats great in teamfights, you can go for a glasscanon build with it.
W and R are too unreliable that I rather take the reliable damage with Q and build up good autoattacks. You max W over Q because it simply offers more versatility than your Q. In addition, the lower cooldown and larger damage let's you achieve more overall.
More importantly (imo), E has TERRIBLE scaling compared to both Q and W, especially in the early-mid game.
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I think everyone hates on W because you can't necessarily "gank" with it if the enemy is completely alone, which is contrary to some heroes who prefer when the heroes are alone (e.g Juggernaut)
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On February 15 2015 04:07 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2015 09:14 Nevuk wrote:On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable She's the same speed as CM. Frosty beings unite The difference is WW has like 800+ range on all skills where CM has a range of 500 on her W and needs to get right in the middle of things to ult effectively. I don't find WW's lack of movespeed nearly as frustrating as CM's.
CM's nova is like 1000 range effectively, it's pretty comparable to WW q actually but is burstier in nature so better at low levels.
They're hard heroes to compare, WW is probably my favorite hero right now but WW feels like a super strong late game support with poor laning presence while CM is the opposite.
Using WW's Q to escape by flying over cliffs is somehow way funnier to me than when phoenix or batrider fly over cliffs. Also stealing runes.
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On February 15 2015 06:18 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 04:07 xxpack09 wrote:On February 14 2015 09:14 Nevuk wrote:On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable She's the same speed as CM. Frosty beings unite The difference is WW has like 800+ range on all skills where CM has a range of 500 on her W and needs to get right in the middle of things to ult effectively. I don't find WW's lack of movespeed nearly as frustrating as CM's. CM's nova is like 1000 range effectively, it's pretty comparable to WW q actually but is burstier in nature so better at low levels. They're hard heroes to compare, WW is probably my favorite hero right now but WW feels like a super strong late game support with poor laning presence while CM is the opposite. Using WW's Q to escape by flying over cliffs is somehow way funnier to me than when phoenix or batrider fly over cliffs. Also stealing runes.
Yeah sure, but CM still has to get in the middle of the fight more than wyvern does because she has low range spells in addition to her 1 high range spell, whereas everything WW does is super high range (1000, 1200, 1000, 800). I do agree with your 2nd point though--I feel like WW is quite a weak/greedy laner that doesn't do much until lvl 6, but has a strong lategame presence who is especially good at anti-push and teamfight, while CM is quite strong for her whole team in the early levels but falls off because her ult is too difficult to use effectively without massive amounts of farm which she struggles to secure.
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On February 15 2015 07:17 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 06:18 Nevuk wrote:On February 15 2015 04:07 xxpack09 wrote:On February 14 2015 09:14 Nevuk wrote:On February 14 2015 08:43 Torte de Lini wrote:
Just played a game.
She's fucking slow even with Euls and Tranquil's, it's unbearable She's the same speed as CM. Frosty beings unite The difference is WW has like 800+ range on all skills where CM has a range of 500 on her W and needs to get right in the middle of things to ult effectively. I don't find WW's lack of movespeed nearly as frustrating as CM's. CM's nova is like 1000 range effectively, it's pretty comparable to WW q actually but is burstier in nature so better at low levels. They're hard heroes to compare, WW is probably my favorite hero right now but WW feels like a super strong late game support with poor laning presence while CM is the opposite. Using WW's Q to escape by flying over cliffs is somehow way funnier to me than when phoenix or batrider fly over cliffs. Also stealing runes. Yeah sure, but CM still has to get in the middle of the fight more than wyvern does because she has low range spells in addition to her 1 high range spell, whereas everything WW does is super high range (1000, 1200, 1000, 800). I do agree with your 2nd point though--I feel like WW is quite a weak/greedy laner that doesn't do much until lvl 6, but has a strong lategame presence who is especially good at anti-push and teamfight, while CM is quite strong for her whole team in the early levels but falls off because her ult is too difficult to use effectively without massive amounts of farm which she struggles to secure. Their farming capacities are one of the other easily compared differences - WW can clear massive stacks easily but can't jungle from level 1 the way CM can.
And the range on WW spells are why her low movespeed really doesn't matter that much. That said, the main reason to level the Q/E are for lower CDs, they already do the majority of what you need from a single point. Getting 1000 range auto attacks is nice but if you hit someone one time during a gank then there's little point hitting them multiple times (due to the debuff not stacking and WW having shitty auto damage). And the physical damage block duration is the same at every level, the spell would be very good even if it had no heal component.
Someone was commenting in a game that I played her that the issue with her ult was that a lot of things won't proc (like mjolnir) on the autos. Her ults strong enough without those effects anyways though.
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Interesting stat: WW already has 200k more pub games played than Chen.
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On February 15 2015 05:33 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 05:19 TomatoBisque wrote:
The scaling on Embrace is pretty bad imo, especially early game when people have like 1000HP, -1s cd and like +40HP healed is meh. early game 1k hp? woot. most heroes don't get 1k hp till well into mid game.
well, in the level 7-10 range it's easy to get for most heroes
Either way the spell's scaling isn't good enough to warrant maxing over her other spells
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On February 15 2015 08:24 broodbucket wrote:
Interesting stat: WW already has 200k more pub games played than Chen.
A lot of players avoid Chen entirely, even though he isn't actually that hard to play. People are scared of micro sometimes and just want one unit to control, which is true for most heroes.
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On February 15 2015 09:15 aeroblaster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 08:24 broodbucket wrote:
Interesting stat: WW already has 200k more pub games played than Chen. A lot of players avoid Chen entirely, even though he isn't actually that hard to play. People are scared of micro sometimes and just want one unit to control, which is true for most heroes.
The weirdest thing is that Visage has even less games played than Chen, even though at low levels of play I'm pretty sure you could just box the birds and be fine, Soul Assumption is so good...but people are terrified of micro
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This hero feels unbalanced to me. All her abilities are strong in every stage of the game and she has good stat gain. Can flash farm with W even though she doesn't need items to be impactful. Disagree with her having weak laning too.
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ya im p sure wws op
lanings ok if u max q, w's alright versus low range heroes too
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You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable.
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On February 15 2015 09:51 Kishin2 wrote:
This hero feels unbalanced to me. All her abilities are strong in every stage of the game and she has good stat gain. Can flash farm with W even though she doesn't need items to be impactful. Disagree with her having weak laning too.
Was comparing her to CM lol. Almost all heroes have weak laning compared to CM.
Her laning isn't weak, I just find it to be the time when she's weakest (especially at level 2, the 50 second CD on the q is brutal) compared to other supports. The other late-game supports are way worse in lane than she is, or at the least harder to use (or situational like shadow demon).
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50 sec CD on Q is fine because it's so good. It's a guaranteed 40%+ damage on health if get a hit off at the start and end. Not difficult when it has a 25% slow too. I guess she her low damage, armor, and range means she can't actively zone out heroes, but everything else is really strong.
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On February 15 2015 10:30 Kishin2 wrote:
50 sec CD on Q is fine because it's so good. It's a guaranteed 40%+ damage on health if get a hit off at the start and end. Not difficult when it has a 25% slow too. I guess she her low damage, armor, and range means she can't actively zone out heroes, but everything else is really strong.
You can only apply the buff once per cast. Also it's current HP not max HP. Either way the skill is still really good, and would be broken with a lower cooldown at lower levels.
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On February 15 2015 10:11 DucK- wrote:
You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable.
This, I'd say that like half the time I use it it's just to roar some fucker so the carry can beat him down or to interrupt a TP
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On February 15 2015 10:41 Jinxed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:30 Kishin2 wrote:
50 sec CD on Q is fine because it's so good. It's a guaranteed 40%+ damage on health if get a hit off at the start and end. Not difficult when it has a 25% slow too. I guess she her low damage, armor, and range means she can't actively zone out heroes, but everything else is really strong. You can only apply the buff once per cast. Also it's current HP not max HP. Either way the skill is still really good, and would be broken with a lower cooldown at lower levels.
It also makes it possible to get some really weird angles to attack an offlaner at night because of the ridiculous extra night vision, range, and flying (just 6 seconds but that's enough to get to some spots only batrider or a blink hero can usually get to).
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On February 15 2015 10:41 Jinxed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:30 Kishin2 wrote:
50 sec CD on Q is fine because it's so good. It's a guaranteed 40%+ damage on health if get a hit off at the start and end. Not difficult when it has a 25% slow too. I guess she her low damage, armor, and range means she can't actively zone out heroes, but everything else is really strong. You can only apply the buff once per cast. Also it's current HP not max HP. Either way the skill is still really good, and would be broken with a lower cooldown at lower levels.
I ran that calculation assuming it's current hp, but you're right. I didn't know that the buff doesn't reset.
I'm not sure if it's worth it to get lvl 2 in Winter's Curse at 11. Getting +.25 duration and -10 second cd per level isn't that great. It's probably good skill it if you're dealing with pushes, but getting more points into embrace should generally be better.
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I mean, even just an extra .25 is worth it over 1 second cooldown and 1% more hp/sec on Cold Embrace. Even if that is just 1 extra attack that's still extremely worth it I think. Especially as the mana cost doesn't increase on it.
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Now that i have decent games going with WW, i will go on record to say this: this hero is terrible. Stats is good, spell is good, but the lack of Movespeed ruin EVERYTHING. Combining with the lack of escape mechanism, you are pretty fucked if your team actually count on you to save them with your E.
Between Q and W, maxing W first is quite a temptation. It gives you the damage you want at early phase of mid game to actually get a gank successful. But its a situational skill so mostly you end up not using it or use it ineffectively. Maxing Q seems like the right way to go as the cooddown and mana cost relief you from the need of items as support. But it doesnt have that much impact in fights. Its also worth notice that as a support, getting level 9 will be a struggle so which ever route you commit will hurt you one way or another. Right now im just going 3-3-1-1 or sometime just save up skill points.
Item wise Tranquil seems nice until you realise that going mana boot could boost up your farm tremendously. Stack the big camp 3 times and spam W(if you happen to max it) and you are good for the rest of the game in term of gold. Overall there is no way to compensate for your lack of movespeed with support gold. I think bracer and urn are requirement and Eul+force are luxurious. The overall goal of item build is just to stay alive and utilize your spells short cooldown to make impacts.
I dislike WW right now... in a sense he is a much slower, less survivable bane with more AoE but the AoE is often wasted. In sense, I think bane and Oracle both offer much more than WW on the support slot atm. May be he could be very strong on a tanky line up with Bristle as core and Magnus as mid? but the pick is just way too limited and inflexible compare to other choices.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Yeah hero is super squishy and the primary nuke is really awkward to use
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On February 15 2015 10:43 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:11 DucK- wrote:
You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable. This, I'd say that like half the time I use it it's just to roar some fucker so the carry can beat him down or to interrupt a TP
It can also be a zoning tool on top of that. If you ulti someone it creates a nice radius that no one can enter for 3s and can be used to divide up teamfights or prevent supports from engaging in.
In terms of speed, I don't see how WW's speed is any more of a hindrance than it is for any other support that ends up in a similar situation.
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seems pretty good for the beast event both offensively and defensively
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wws rly rly good
go tranqs + mppots -> force -> blink
generally 3111 or 2211 by 6, after that max q or w depending on game
farming stacks is overrated. u can do it but ur better off nuking down waves if u really need money
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On February 15 2015 13:51 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 10:43 TomatoBisque wrote:On February 15 2015 10:11 DucK- wrote:
You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable. This, I'd say that like half the time I use it it's just to roar some fucker so the carry can beat him down or to interrupt a TP It can also be a zoning tool on top of that. If you ulti someone it creates a nice radius that no one can enter for 3s and can be used to divide up teamfights or prevent supports from engaging in. In terms of speed, I don't see how WW's speed is any more of a hindrance than it is for any other support that ends up in a similar situation.
Well think of it like this, if other supports dont have escape skills, they still have disables or high nukage that could threaten anything that was chasing them. WW doesnt have that, AND it is slow.... Its like a Support sniper, long range, good damage but offer next to nothing.
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On February 15 2015 15:35 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 13:51 Logo wrote:On February 15 2015 10:43 TomatoBisque wrote:On February 15 2015 10:11 DucK- wrote:
You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable. This, I'd say that like half the time I use it it's just to roar some fucker so the carry can beat him down or to interrupt a TP It can also be a zoning tool on top of that. If you ulti someone it creates a nice radius that no one can enter for 3s and can be used to divide up teamfights or prevent supports from engaging in. In terms of speed, I don't see how WW's speed is any more of a hindrance than it is for any other support that ends up in a similar situation. Well think of it like this, if other supports dont have escape skills, they still have disables or high nukage that could threaten anything that was chasing them. WW doesnt have that, AND it is slow.... Its like a Support sniper, long range, good damage but offer next to nothing.
There are a lot of ways I would describe Auroth's ult, but "next to nothing" is not one of them. Most of the others involve swearwords.
I like blink. She's a very positional hero with very low MS; seems like a no-brainer. You can choose whether to be blink beastmaster or blink magnus each time Curse is off CD, and it also helps position to save allies.
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have only played with this hero on my team, and seems pretty useful as a 5 pos support. the freeze counter initiate is really great vs legion/void etc, and the ult stun seems really useful. good in lane too with q.
I dunno seems pretty solid overall to me.
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On February 15 2015 16:05 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 15:35 NB wrote:On February 15 2015 13:51 Logo wrote:On February 15 2015 10:43 TomatoBisque wrote:On February 15 2015 10:11 DucK- wrote:
You know you don't always need to land multi heroes ulti. Sometimes you just need to treat it as a bkb piercing disable. This, I'd say that like half the time I use it it's just to roar some fucker so the carry can beat him down or to interrupt a TP It can also be a zoning tool on top of that. If you ulti someone it creates a nice radius that no one can enter for 3s and can be used to divide up teamfights or prevent supports from engaging in. In terms of speed, I don't see how WW's speed is any more of a hindrance than it is for any other support that ends up in a similar situation. Well think of it like this, if other supports dont have escape skills, they still have disables or high nukage that could threaten anything that was chasing them. WW doesnt have that, AND it is slow.... Its like a Support sniper, long range, good damage but offer next to nothing. There are a lot of ways I would describe Auroth's ult, but "next to nothing" is not one of them. Most of the others involve swearwords. I like blink. She's a very positional hero with very low MS; seems like a no-brainer. You can choose whether to be blink beastmaster or blink magnus each time Curse is off CD, and it also helps position to save allies.
the difference here is mag and BM are cores while WW is being played as support. Blink could be achieved around 20 mins but thats at the cost of your lack of mana/stats items. A more realistic expectation would be around 30-35 mins, may be after euls/force.
Tbh with the cooldown on her W, i could see her being run as a core. Running mid, bottle and spam lane out like mag. But to translate that into mid game ganks with the lack of ms...
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On February 15 2015 15:33 Dead9 wrote:
wws rly rly good
go tranqs + mppots -> force -> blink
generally 3111 or 2211 by 6, after that max q or w depending on game
farming stacks is overrated. u can do it but ur better off nuking down waves if u really need money
What is "mppots"?
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On February 15 2015 13:35 NB wrote:
Now that i have decent games going with WW, i will go on record to say this: this hero is terrible. Stats is good, spell is good, but the lack of Movespeed ruin EVERYTHING. Combining with the lack of escape mechanism, you are pretty fucked if your team actually count on you to save them with your E.
Between Q and W, maxing W first is quite a temptation. It gives you the damage you want at early phase of mid game to actually get a gank successful. But its a situational skill so mostly you end up not using it or use it ineffectively. Maxing Q seems like the right way to go as the cooddown and mana cost relief you from the need of items as support. But it doesnt have that much impact in fights. Its also worth notice that as a support, getting level 9 will be a struggle so which ever route you commit will hurt you one way or another. Right now im just going 3-3-1-1 or sometime just save up skill points.
Item wise Tranquil seems nice until you realise that going mana boot could boost up your farm tremendously. Stack the big camp 3 times and spam W(if you happen to max it) and you are good for the rest of the game in term of gold. Overall there is no way to compensate for your lack of movespeed with support gold. I think bracer and urn are requirement and Eul+force are luxurious. The overall goal of item build is just to stay alive and utilize your spells short cooldown to make impacts.
I dislike WW right now... in a sense he is a much slower, less survivable bane with more AoE but the AoE is often wasted. In sense, I think bane and Oracle both offer much more than WW on the support slot atm. May be he could be very strong on a tanky line up with Bristle as core and Magnus as mid? but the pick is just way too limited and inflexible compare to other choices.
I disagree, this hero is very strong! Her W isn't that hard to use in a gank because you can usually fire it from fog (absurd range), and in teamfights you're probably happy if you hit two people with it. Also its cd is really low, so you're probably gonna get two or three off in a fight if you manage to survive.
I've been maxing W on her without thinking twice, but I'm not sure yet about maxing Q over E second. Maxing E first seems like it's not worth it in terms of how much is actually healed, but I've found that little extra can make a huge difference in keeping someone barely alive.
As for her comparison with Bane, Bane has a huge issue with spell wind-up, which is something that she doesn't. This is especially important when you have something like a storm jumping around, or when you're caught by surprise, etc. Also, she has better range on her everything (800 vs 625 range on her ult makes her better than bane against bkb carries and ults like enigma/void imo).
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On February 16 2015 01:39 Just_a_Moth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 15:33 Dead9 wrote:
wws rly rly good
go tranqs + mppots -> force -> blink
generally 3111 or 2211 by 6, after that max q or w depending on game
farming stacks is overrated. u can do it but ur better off nuking down waves if u really need money What is "mppots"?
Mana pots i guess.
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short guide to winter wyvern:
q: this is the best spell you have in laning. it's also very strong as an escape/scouting skill. you don't get flying vision but flying over trees and stuff owns
w: this spell sucks. it's a big nuke though so you still want to max it first or second
e: use this to save teammates or heal up between fights. max it last tho, the extra heal isn't really that big of a deal
r: this spell's broken
laning: open support items (since this is pubs you're probably on wards and courier) + tangoes + clarity* 4. if you have extra money you can buy branches or an hppot. alternately you can save a bit of money for earlier boots
get as many points of q as you need to zone out the offlaner. every cooldown hit q and rightclick their offlaner, then go hide in the trees til it's off cooldown. once your ulti is up you can try to go for a kill depending on lane. versus trilanes max q or w depending on their positioning. i'd still recommend maxing q, but against short range trilanes w might be better. don't forget to buy wards.
post laning: follow ppl around. place wards. etc, normal support stuff
skill progression: always 4412 -> 4443. however early game progression is flexible. skip e if at all possible, but sometimes it's nice to have depending on lane
generally go 3201, 3111, or 2211 early game, then max q or w depending on game (q is better most of the time, but w nice for counterpush or gigantic teamfights
item progression: tranqs -> medallion -> force/blink
just carry around like 5 mana pots if you need more mana. you shouldn't need very much, ww's mana pool is gigantic
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United States12235 Posts
Thoughts on Medallion for her? Helps her mana regen a bit, augments your team's Rosh ability, and adds more damage to your ult if you use it on the cursed target.
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If someone else already has an urn I don't see a problem with it. As you say it does work with her ultimate.
That being said there is no reason to skip a point in Cold Embrace. The heal and ability to block all physical damage is way too useful to ever outright skip. Doubly so for early engagements in lane. Also Arctic Burn is overrated by a lot of people. For the most part after the initial hit it's nothing more than a glorified take aim. Sure a shorter cooldown and lower mana cost is nice, but when compared to how much damage you get out of Splinter Blast the choice is usually pretty obvious.
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A value point in Embrace seems good in most scenarios. That medallion makes a lot of sense I'm gonna try that out.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
arctic burn is so counterintuitive lol, I can't think of any other "orb" abilities that don't refresh the debuff duration with each attack (yes I know arctic burn isnt an orb)
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Most of the time I think you want to take points in Q until the offlaner can't contest the lane anymore, and then you max W with a value point in E.
Q and particularly Q max is massively overvalued. You get the bulk of the utility and damage from the first point, especially considering WW's abysmal autoattack stats. The CD is only relevant in-lane, and by the time you're level 5/7 the laning stage is almost over. Post-laning there's barely any difference between levels 1 and 4.
In fact, really there are like a handful of situations where an early Q max is useful outside lane:
- You need to be ridiculously far back from teamfights
- You need to apply the buff on a lot of enemy heroes and can't already do so with 7/800 range
- A 25% slow from smoke break range will consistently create kills
- Engagements are long enough that the 20s CD lets you get off two cycles in a teamfight
All of those are really edge cases at level 7, and in most of them you would probably get more damage landing a maxed W anyway.
Anyone who thinks W sucks needs to learn to place the skill; I feel like using it well is one of the more challenging aspects to playing Auroth, but it is an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage on a crazy short CD even if it only hits a couple of targets.
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Could you actually just jungle from level 1 with your W? similar to how CM would do it, just with pots instead of the mana regen aura. Or is WW worth way more in lane at early levels?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On February 16 2015 22:52 Gowerly wrote:
Could you actually just jungle from level 1 with your W? similar to how CM would do it, just with pots instead of the mana regen aura. Or is WW worth way more in lane at early levels?
eh the reason CM can jungle lvl 1 is not because of her brilliance aura, but because her frostbite lets her reliably kill even the biggest creeps at lvl 1. for WW, you would need to get a decent stack for it to be anywhere close to efficient, and even then lvl 1 splinter just doesnt do enough damage (you have about enough mana to cast splinter 3 times)
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On February 16 2015 23:02 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 22:52 Gowerly wrote:
Could you actually just jungle from level 1 with your W? similar to how CM would do it, just with pots instead of the mana regen aura. Or is WW worth way more in lane at early levels? eh the reason CM can jungle lvl 1 is not because of her brilliance aura, but because her frostbite lets her reliably kill even the biggest creeps at lvl 1. for WW, you would need to get a decent stack for it to be anywhere close to efficient, and even then lvl 1 splinter just doesnt do enough damage (you have about enough mana to cast splinter 3 times)
It's also just a totally different situation. CM sort of has to jungle from level 1 because she jungles creeps individually. She only gets good xp from doing it if she's doing it constantly through the laning phase. WW can stack and clear later on because she clears a camp at the same speed regardless of if it's 1 stack or 3. In that respect she's more like a Sand King than Crystal Maiden except WW has the luxury of applying more harassment to a lane than Sand King (probably less kill potential though).
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medallions core
the stuff you're talking about (landing q on more targets, initiating from smoke) aren't exactly edge cases.
3 points in q is actually just enough so you can initiate from smoke and slow them with q, then r someone, and it's generally enough to hit most targets in teamfights, but i like to get the 4th point anyway cus i like flying over trees and stuff
w max is still generally stronger in midgame teamfights but if you don't get at least a few points in q your laning is just complete garbage. the cd reduction is also situationally nice for fights, since u can get in position before fights break out (into trees is pretty strong early game) and fly over stuff to get places (stealing runes is really funny)
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If you've got a really passive/hard to kill lane why the hell wouldn't you max W by 7 and just get EZ lvl 9 by hard camp stacking and having 3-4-1-1 by that point?
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because q is much stronger during laning
also idk why farming the hard camp is even brought up. 'farming' the hard camp involves investing 800g into a soul ring and/or blowing a ton of time clearing the camp. and this is ON TOP OF the time you spend stacking the camp instead of pulling for money/exp or leeching exp in lane. if anything you want to stack the hard camp for you carry, then leech exp or farm the lane while they clear it, and neither of those require max w.
w's seriously such a garbage ability. 3~4 points into q first is the way to go. w is an 'aoe' nuke with 7s cd, but in reality you're rarely going to be landing it on more than 1~2 heroes, and generally by the time the cd is up the entire creep wave will be dead. if you're landing it more than once, maybe twice it's mostly on your opponents clumping really hard
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This hero isnt a sand king or something who almost becomes a new hero with a core item (blink). If you're stacking, you should leave it to your carry if you wanna play it "right". Sure its pubs and everyone does their own shit so you taking out a stack is hardly a big crime in the big picture. But that doesnt change the fact its "wrong" and its only your own greed talking to you if you try to justify it to yourself. Theres plenty of supports who can clear stacks (jakiro, lesh, etc....) but no one would ever expect any of them to take carry stacks. WW is no different.
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That playstyle is absurdly outdated anymore. As a support you are no longer brown boots and wards, you have to be concerned with your own progression or else you might as well pick CM and afk in the fountain. Catching back up in levels and gold is important as a support, and there are only three ways to do that. 1) you go and make kills happen, or 2) you take towers, or 3) you stack camps and farm up when you get the chance. If you're underleveled and underfarmed going into the midgame you're pretty much putting your team at a -1.
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On February 17 2015 21:04 Kreb wrote:
This hero isnt a sand king or something who almost becomes a new hero with a core item (blink). If you're stacking, you should leave it to your carry if you wanna play it "right". Sure its pubs and everyone does their own shit so you taking out a stack is hardly a big crime in the big picture. But that doesnt change the fact its "wrong" and its only your own greed talking to you if you try to justify it to yourself. Theres plenty of supports who can clear stacks (jakiro, lesh, etc....) but no one would ever expect any of them to take carry stacks. WW is no different.
Jakiro and lesh clearing stacks now, really? not that I encourage WW to head into the jungle to stack, but WW with a fast blink is actually a game winning hero in many situations. Blink on WW feels pretty core to me; sometimes there's only that split second that enemies clump such that a well placed ult just takes out a vital hero from their hero's auto attacks alone.
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On February 17 2015 23:03 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 21:04 Kreb wrote:
This hero isnt a sand king or something who almost becomes a new hero with a core item (blink). If you're stacking, you should leave it to your carry if you wanna play it "right". Sure its pubs and everyone does their own shit so you taking out a stack is hardly a big crime in the big picture. But that doesnt change the fact its "wrong" and its only your own greed talking to you if you try to justify it to yourself. Theres plenty of supports who can clear stacks (jakiro, lesh, etc....) but no one would ever expect any of them to take carry stacks. WW is no different. Jakiro and lesh clearing stacks now, really? not that I encourage WW to head into the jungle to stack, but WW with a fast blink is actually a game winning hero in many situations. Blink on WW feels pretty core to me; sometimes there's only that split second that enemies clump such that a well placed ult just takes out a vital hero from their hero's auto attacks alone.
Jakiro is one of the best at it? Lvl 1 ult all you need and its super fast. Can be done with his Q/E too but takes some time. Leshs whole arsenal is AoE, can be done with anything except W max.
I mean kotl could clear super good too (actually a descent jungler). SD has super cheap clear with poison. CM can use lvl 1 ult. Undy can clear with tomb/Q. Hell even a hero like abaddon could run into a stack with soul ring at lvl 6-7, blow 3-4 shield and ult to clear. I could go on... Ands that my point, no one does it. But many can.
Theres so many supports who can, some are even better than cores at doing so. Jakiro could outfarm most cores if built for it. But I doubt anyone can show me a pro game where a support gets stack priority over a core. SK would be an exception, there might be more but blink on SK is obviously incredibly important and has higher priority than many cores' items.
If you wanna give supports gold/exp you either have them sit next to a core as they clear jungle/ancient stacks (happens plenty of times in pro games) or you give them a lane as a core either transitions into roaming around or into jungle (happens all the time too). Stacking for supports does NOT happen all the time, quite the opposite.
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On February 17 2015 20:52 Dead9 wrote:
because q is much stronger during laning
also idk why farming the hard camp is even brought up. 'farming' the hard camp involves investing 800g into a soul ring and/or blowing a ton of time clearing the camp. and this is ON TOP OF the time you spend stacking the camp instead of pulling for money/exp or leeching exp in lane. if anything you want to stack the hard camp for you carry, then leech exp or farm the lane while they clear it, and neither of those require max w.
w's seriously such a garbage ability. 3~4 points into q first is the way to go. w is an 'aoe' nuke with 7s cd, but in reality you're rarely going to be landing it on more than 1~2 heroes, and generally by the time the cd is up the entire creep wave will be dead. if you're landing it more than once, maybe twice it's mostly on your opponents clumping really hard
W isn't strong because it's an AoE nuke. It's strong because it's a 340 magic dmg nuke on a 7s CD. Even if you only hit one hero with the nuke it's still capable of changing the fight. To me the Q changes how you can engage in fights. There's a lot of choked areas that are just really difficult to fight in if WW is nuking from the back line and you can't get in on her.
The nuke sort of reminds me of Blood Rite in that it doesn't necessarily land all that often for big damage, but it forces certain terms of the fight and you can exploit those terms to win the fight none the less. Especially given WW's other abilities that also exert a lot of control on the fight.
Theres so many supports who can, some are even better than cores at doing so. Jakiro could outfarm most cores if built for it. But I doubt anyone can show me a pro game where a support gets stack priority over a core. SK would be an exception, there might be more but blink on SK is obviously incredibly important and has higher priority than many cores' items.
Chen, Enchantress, Enigma, and CM all also play around with using the jungle without being cores in their own right.
The thing about WW, especially in a trilane, is your main contribution early on is bullying people away with Arctic Chill. Once you pop the cooldown there's not necessarily a huge reason to hang around the lane; especially if your other support is ranged committing 2 people to zoning out the offlaner is silly. That frees one of you (or both if the enemy offlane is back or has abandoned the lane) to stack and/or pull. In such cases it totally makes sense for WW to do something like clear the stacks at 5 so she can get level 6 to be a stronger presence on the map without taking XP from a core.
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blood rite is much more devastating than shards...
look have you guys actually played this hero? shards is much weaker than q. you can max it first and do alright (it's pretty strong for counterpushing. but then again so is q) but generally q is stronger
and have you tried clearing stacks with w? because it's a MASSIVE time sink, especially since you've already hit 7 and you could be killing people with your ult. 'oh but you can clear it after you gank someone' no you can't because it takes your entire mana pool. 'oh just buy a soul ring' ok now you're out 800 gold and i doubt you have a 6stack on the hard camp. on top of that you have to farm up to soul ring before you can clear it.. 'but wait it's for the exp' then why wouldn't you just let your carry take it while you leech?
farm on this hero is nice but not a necessity. a medallion/blink is great and all but all your spells have ridiculous range so it's not really that big of a deal if you don't have them
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On February 18 2015 06:06 Dead9 wrote:
blood rite is much more devastating than shards...
look have you guys actually played this hero? shards is much weaker than q. you can max it first and do alright (it's pretty strong for counterpushing. but then again so is q) but generally q is stronger
and have you tried clearing stacks with w? because it's a MASSIVE time sink, especially since you've already hit 7 and you could be killing people with your ult. 'oh but you can clear it after you gank someone' no you can't because it takes your entire mana pool. 'oh just buy a soul ring' ok now you're out 800 gold and i doubt you have a 6stack on the hard camp. on top of that you have to farm up to soul ring before you can clear it.. 'but wait it's for the exp' then why wouldn't you just let your carry take it while you leech?
farm on this hero is nice but not a necessity. a medallion/blink is great and all but all your spells have ridiculous range so it's not really that big of a deal if you don't have them
I don't doubt that shards is weaker than q in some ways, but I don't think the additional levels of q matter as much as being able to dump mana during a fight with a strong w. Especially in the mid-game when the order actually matters (instead of when you are 4-4-1), enemies tend to have lower mobility and no bkbs; during that time the extra 100 range and CD reduction can be irrelevant in many situations.
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Clearing stacks is pretty cumbersome, certainly. Ideally if you're a junlging support you want to use it to get over the awkward early level hump and get a core item up, but WW can't even start until she's level 7 with arcanes.
Even so, the fact remains that everything you want to do with Q in an early fight, you can do with level 1. If you manage the CD and your positioning you can still get the debuff off fine, while also having a 340 damage nuke on a 7 second CD.
More levels certainly give ease-of-use, but ease-of-use is a damn luxury as a pos 5. That stuff becomes more important as cores get scarier and big teamfights start happening, which usually lines up with level 8-11 where you're going to finish maxing it anyway.
Realistically neither order is going to lose you the game, but I would rather practice landing W and positioning at lower levels of Q than just max Q every game.
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how the fuck is Q good at counterpushing
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Q is useful in counterpushing in the sense that it can quickly make an entire enemy team too injured to safely keep pressuring the tower. Other than that I don't know.
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you can usually hit their entire team with q, sometimes before they even reach the tower
'counterpushing' might not have been the right word idk
i guess i should've said 'good at defending towers'
q puts out a lot of damage and lets you initiate from a very safe distance
maxing q isn't just 'ease-of-use,' it also increases your initiation range by a lot. it's much, much easier to initiate ganks or teamfights with max q versus max w
and the cd reduction isn't exactly minor, 50/40/30/20 is a massive increase in uptime
and it's 100% on your opponents if they get hit with w or not...
i don't see how you can 'practice' making your opponents clump up ...
you legitimately can't land more than 1, maybe 2 w's against half-decent players
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On February 18 2015 07:49 Dead9 wrote:
you can usually hit their entire team with q, sometimes before they even reach the tower
'counterpushing' might not have been the right word idk
i guess i should've said 'good at defending towers'
q puts out a lot of damage and lets you initiate from a very safe distance
maxing q isn't just 'ease-of-use,' it also increases your initiation range by a lot. it's much, much easier to initiate ganks or teamfights with max q versus max w
and the cd reduction isn't exactly minor, 50/40/30/20 is a massive increase in uptime
and it's 100% on your opponents if they get hit with w or not...
i don't see how you can 'practice' making your opponents clump up ...
you legitimately can't land more than 1, maybe 2 w's against half-decent players
You don't need to practice making players clump up; the radius of W is 500 units and that's only 100 less than the big ass midnight pulse. How many team fights have you seen players actively staying more 500 units away from each other against WW? It's just the nature of team fights that people do come closer, especially with lineups that rely on follow-ups after an initiation like centaur etc. That's almost like saying that it's rare to land a a black hole on more than 2 players in pro games. W contributes more than half of WW's output in a team fight hands down, not to mention the synergy with ult. 20 seconds CD for Q at any team fight at level 7 is already severely limiting your output. The only time W seems obviously bad is when you're going for a gank on a single target with your team or hamper your ability to solo roam early.
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u realize 500 radius is 30% less area than 600 radius
the point is ur not going to reliably get more than one, maybe two shards
generally the entire creep wave is dead and heroes have already started dying by the second shards
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On February 18 2015 12:33 Dead9 wrote:
u realize 500 radius is 30% less area than 600 radius
the point is ur not going to reliably get more than one, maybe two shards
generally the entire creep wave is dead and heroes have already started dying by the second shards
That's like saying Dragon Salve is useless if you only hit one enemy hero. Either way you cut it the dmg, even against 1 target, is a lot for a support's nuke.
There's also of plenty of other spells considered good/fine that have a similar AoE radius. Fade bolt, for example, jumps at 440 range, Lich's Ult is 575, Weave is only 575 as well, and Crystal Nova is 400 radius. Yet all of those spells are commonly landed in situations where they jump or hit multiple targets.
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except those nukes don't have a 1+s delay and they hit your primary target...
you're giving up a ton of uptime and range on q. the extra slow isn't exactly negligible either
w max is pretty much only stronger if you're having gigantic teamfights 10 minutes into the game
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I mean, there is a significant difference in that the hero you target it on has a second or so to get himself away from his allies, but in a chaotic teamfight it's hard to tell who it's cast on. Plus if you're forcing your enemies to do a lich-ult delta-split every 7 seconds that's also a success.
Realistically you should be able to hit at least 3 heroes in 2 shards without any problems, especially when your ult guarantees at least 1-2. That's about 900 magic damage, which is very likely to be more than you get going from 1Q to 4Q.
If it's a solo pickoff kind of game then yeah obviously W doesn't do much, but if there are fights of like 3 heroes a side then it's usually going to be more damage.
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the vast majority of my games outside of year beast involve extended, scrappy fights or quick gank/counterganks for the first 10~20 minutes of the game
in both of those situations max q is usually stronger since you can reliably and repeatedly initiate/counterinitiate
by the time 5man happens both q and w are generally maxed or almost maxed anyway
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this hero is super legit in the current heavy physical dmg meta
i actually hope it gets added to CM before ti5, it would be amazing to see it tear apart the axe/bristle/jugg/troll meta
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yeah WW is way stronger than I anticipated
cold embrace is SO strong and a lowish cooldown ult that pierces BKB is super useful even without the "make your allies attack you" part
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I think getting an Urn of Shadows is a nice touch to Winter Wyvern's arsenal.
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On February 19 2015 20:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
I think getting an Urn of Shadows is a nice touch to Winter Wyvern's arsenal.
yes i normally get brown boots > urn > tranqs > euls > blink
mostly because then you have pretty great MS and you never have mana issues
and the ultimate, as said, even without the "allies attack you" part is super strong. it's a 3 second BKB piercing stun lol
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It's better than a 3 second BKB piercing Stun because it also makes a 350 radius area that the enemy team cannot walk into.
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I honestly think that the E is the best skill after the ult. It's just so useful for saving people, or yourself. Not saying you should max it before any of your other skills but get that value point before level 6 every time. It's particularly good in the early game when quite often people will be finishing off kills with a couple of right clicks.
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E is ridiculous but I don't think you need more than 1 point in it early. Definitely want that value point though, agreed.
I'm trending towards value points in Q and E followed by W max and basically Nymzee's item build. Definitely like tranqs urn and euls for core items
On February 20 2015 02:13 Logo wrote:
It's better than a 3 second BKB piercing Stun because it also makes a 350 radius area that the enemy team cannot walk into.
yeah the point is that a 3 second BKB piercing stun on its own is already really useful, the fact that it also makes their allies attack them is just a bonus a lot of the time.
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On February 20 2015 02:19 eieio wrote:E is ridiculous but I don't think you need more than 1 point in it early. Definitely want that value point though, agreed. I'm trending towards value points in Q and E followed by W max and basically Nymzee's item build. Definitely like tranqs urn and euls for core items Show nested quote +On February 20 2015 02:13 Logo wrote:
It's better than a 3 second BKB piercing Stun because it also makes a 350 radius area that the enemy team cannot walk into. yeah the point is that a 3 second BKB piercing stun on its own is already really useful, the fact that it also makes their allies attack them is just a bonus a lot of the time.
Yeah the scaling of E is really poor early on. When heroes have like 1k hp it's only ~40hp per rank (or 120 for the 3 ranks) of the spell which isn't strong scaling. Rank 1 on a 1k hp target already does 200 hp healing compared to 320 for rank 4.
Perhaps in some odd edge case it could be pretty interesting. Maybe if you were going all in on an early game strategy using a hero like Death Prophet it could work (in general actually DP + WW seems like it'd be a fun synergy).
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I don't really like tranqs on WW. She usually stays near the outside in fights anyways and using Q means tranqs is disabled. It feels like I never have money so I'd rather save 550 on building another item. I go boots > urn, wand > euls/blink. Usually euls but blink is probably better if your team is intent on fighting and needs initiation.
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i sometimes go for max E after W if we have a bristle on our team and the enemy is heavy physical (jugg/axe etc), so funny to see people beat on an already tanky bristle who then gets healed to full every 15 seconds with E + urn
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The wiki recommends OoV for synergy with arctic burn for lane harass, which seems... strange.
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On February 20 2015 04:15 Daralii wrote:
The wiki recommends OoV for synergy with arctic burn for lane harass, which seems... strange.
if by strange you mean retarded then yes
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On February 20 2015 04:15 Daralii wrote:
The wiki recommends OoV for synergy with arctic burn for lane harass, which seems... strange.
Dat 3% slow.
*edit* I noticed in a game a couple days ago that a dueling LC will still attack if in Cold Embrace. Seems like a neat little bit of synergy to help LC initiate without it being such a death sentence.
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United States47024 Posts
I missed that, but it makes total sense because in DotA 2, Duel overrides all attack-disabling effects.
So LC+WW works in DotA 2, but for completely different reasons than in DotA 1, lmao.
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oh you can't just make a comment like that and then not explain the mechanics for why it works in dota 1 :p
hey yango, why does LC+WW work in Dota 1?
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United States47024 Posts
Press the Attack is a triggered buff removal, so it removes Cold Embrace's stun without removing the regen/physical immunity.
Actually wait, DotA 2's Duel/Cold Embrace interaction doesn't make any sense then because it's a stun and not an attack-disabling effect, lol.
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On February 20 2015 15:04 TheYango wrote:
Press the Attack is a triggered buff removal, so it removes Cold Embrace's stun without removing the regen/physical immunity.
Actually wait, DotA 2's Duel/Cold Embrace interaction doesn't make any sense then because it's a stun and not an attack-disabling effect, lol.
Well, according to the wiki notes:
Stuns the target and turns it immune to physical damage. Does not block other damage types or spell effects.
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That's...weird. Pretty sure I saw it in-game. Maybe it's just the LC passive procs that still go off and I mistook those for autoattacks?
Now I wanna go test it myself...
*edit* Tested, does not work. Either I fooled myself with Moment of Courage procs or it was bugged a couple days ago.
Sorry to get your hopes up :\ .
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this hero is so good in the current meta vs troll/axe/jugg.
or face rush in general. on the same par if not way better than abaddon/treant as a defensive support.
they rush in, ice refrigerator. gg aggression.
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Hey guys, time to talk about the new top tier support!
This hero is really fun to play and can turn fights with embrace and curse
What would you max first between Q and W? I usually go for W first because the damage scales well, but the reduced cd and the increased range on the burn is really good...
Glimmer cape is core on this hero, like all sup heroes imo
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On July 06 2015 06:36 HammerKick wrote:
What would you max first between Q and W? I usually go for W first because the damage scales well, but the reduced cd and the increased range on the burn is really good...
Arctic Burn does full damage at level 1, so it's better to max Splinter Blast first.
I like to max W>E>Q, although W>Q>E might be better in terms of raw damage.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
splinter blast max for definite, but i think Q>E after. the value point in embrace is strong enough
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Sometimes if the game isn't going so well and my team is getting bursted too fast, I will go for extra points in E. Any little bit of healing counts at that point!
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do you guys think this hero is too strong or the meta helps her shine so much I am on the ropes as sometimes i think the hero is OK but in other i feel its op as hell
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In most cases you should leave heal at rank 1 until the other 2 skills are maxed.
And I would say wyvern is quite balanced. Good pick against any heroes, but by no means an auto win hero.
If you wanna nerf the hero, I'd say make embrace purgeable. Numbers are fine imo.
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Glimmer cape is actually super OP on this hero, you can pretty much make your target invulnerable unless the enemy has a timber or QoP (the big pure damage dealers)
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On July 06 2015 06:36 HammerKick wrote:
What would you max first between Q and W? I usually go for W first because the damage scales well, but the reduced cd and the increased range on the burn is really good...
It depends slightly on the lane, but usually I go 1:0:0:0 into 2:0:1:0 and then decide on when we are going to start teamfighting. I've seen pros who play the hero very well (fng f.e.) skip splinter blast entirely until they maxed q, going for 4:0:2:1 at lvl 7 if i remember right.
I think the decision should be based on how big you think your skirmishes are going to be. Arctic burn is a very good skill in the laning phase and in early skirmishes with small numbers (against two or three enemies) and splinter blast is a very good skill in fights with lots of heroes.
A thing to keep in mind is that Splinter blast is terrible against very mobile heroes as well, it is however very good against melee heroes and works nicely with winter's curse.
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^not considered there is pushing/defending pushes
if you think the enemy will 5 man towers splinter blast definitely the way to go. as well as it being better spell if you want to push as well.
I personally find splinter blast build the much safer build, as if you do get behind the d-push and big teamfight damage are good for coming back. and around level 3 when you need to decide whether to go splinter blast build you don't know whether you will be behind or not several minutes later when finally maxing first skill.
games where i've maxed q and team has got behind i've felt pretty useless
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9070 Posts
I think ww has been the best support for quite a while and icefrog will probably destroy it next patch. I think its the range of her skills that makes her so powerful
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I'm kinda surprised that with how much play WW got at TI5 there have been no posts at all about her
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On July 06 2015 08:31 SatsuinoHado wrote:
do you guys think this hero is too strong or the meta helps her shine so much I am on the ropes as sometimes i think the hero is OK but in other i feel its op as hell
Tbh I think the hero's too good, she's currently balanced by the fact that the meta's bad for her. WW is bad early and shines late and the meta is all about early aggression. While she's ok as an early defensive support and laner, she's pretty bad for ganking. The thing that separates her before lvl 6 is her tool vs physical damage in a meta full of magic damage burst heroes (lesh, qop, lina, early gyro).
She would be extremely powerful in a meta like 6.83 f.e..
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I agree that WW is busted but IIRC he had like 40% winrate at TI5 which is not good lol.
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On September 24 2015 23:20 Sn0_Man wrote:
I agree that WW is busted but IIRC he had like 40% winrate at TI5 which is not good lol.
Yeah don't get me wrong, I dont think she needs a nerf now. But she has one coming once the big patch hits, probably after she becomes the goto support for a while.
Unless the next big patch is even more about early aggression and SWM and other heavy magic damage nukers become (even more) popular.
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The crazy thing about WW is that she's theoretically meh vs almost all the popular heroes right now. Imagine if instead of Lesh, Lina and Gyro (aka the 'murder anyone in cold embrace' heroes) we had a lot of single-target right-clickers being picked.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On September 25 2015 03:14 Orome wrote:
The crazy thing about WW is that she's theoretically meh vs almost all the popular heroes right now. Imagine if instead of Lesh, Lina and Gyro (aka the 'murder anyone in cold embrace' heroes) we had a lot of single-target right-clickers being picked.
she was discovered so late into last patch too, with all the trolls snipers juggs
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by discovered you mean added to cm right
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9070 Posts
On September 25 2015 03:14 Orome wrote:
The crazy thing about WW is that she's theoretically meh vs almost all the popular heroes right now. Imagine if instead of Lesh, Lina and Gyro (aka the 'murder anyone in cold embrace' heroes) we had a lot of single-target right-clickers being picked.
I think she is at worst ok vs any lineup and just wrecks other compositions. Theres not a single scenario when her ulti is not great, 2 of her skills scale great late game and you can farm from 2 screens away with the 3rd one. You can pretty much reliably get mana boots, blink, soul ring every single game regardless how bad it goes and I think thats all she needs.
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cold embrace does seem like a ridiculous spell relative to just about any other support heal spell. it's a little confusing that her winrate isn't as ridiculous as i'd expect. 24% heal + looking at pros even who will right click the embraced target out of like spite or whatever is such crazzzzy value. maybe next to wisp for top 2 babysitters.
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Winters curse cast range is just too good, and the ability itself is too strong. Cold embrace needs to tank a limited amount of physical dmg only.
Winter Wyvern's kit just offers way too many different things. The popularity of the hero makes alot of heroes unviable, or even worse than they already are, and alot of heroes are outclassed by it.
A beastmaster for example just gets outclassed when you have a legitemely, strong lane support, with a better ultimate and another 20 pros.
We are currently in a magic damage based meta and wyvern still dope as fuck. Seems wrong heh?
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What stands out to me is that Winter's Curse is a long range, spell imunity piercing AoE disable that has a short cast time and no projectile.
Compare every other similar spell in the game. RP is centered around Magnus. Primal Roar has a substantial cast time and is single-target. Black Hole is channeled and short range. Chrono is shorter range and disables your own team.
Aside from bouncing off Linken's on the main target, it's pretty much just better than every other similar spell. There's just no way to react to it and very little way to prepare yourself for it.
Even though Cold Embrace is really strong, I suspect that IF is likely to nerf some aspect of Winter's Curse. He's generally pretty strict about how quickly you're allowed to completely disable heroes at range (the only other anomaly that I know of was Earth Spirit's Geomagnetic Grip stunning when he was released, but that was changed and with good reason).
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On September 25 2015 06:01 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2015 03:14 Orome wrote:
The crazy thing about WW is that she's theoretically meh vs almost all the popular heroes right now. Imagine if instead of Lesh, Lina and Gyro (aka the 'murder anyone in cold embrace' heroes) we had a lot of single-target right-clickers being picked. I think she is at worst ok vs any lineup and just wrecks other compositions. Theres not a single scenario when her ulti is not great, 2 of her skills scale great late game and you can farm from 2 screens away with the 3rd one. You can pretty much reliably get mana boots, blink, soul ring every single game regardless how bad it goes and I think thats all she needs.
She's also one of the absolute best depush heroes in the game with just lvl 7.
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United States47024 Posts
Lets wait till Glimmer Cape gets nerfed before we talk about how strong Cold Embrace is. That spell is literal invincibility mostly because Glimmer Cape covers magic damage so the physical immunity just has to pick up whats left.
On September 25 2015 06:54 muh-skillcap wrote:
We are currently in a magic damage based meta and wyvern still dope as fuck. Seems wrong heh?
I mean, it's weird to call it a magic damage based meta because a ton of magic damage heroes are made invalid by Glimmer Cape, so the magic damage heroes we actually use are the ones that are so bullshit that they don't care or that don't actually rely entirely on magic damage.
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On September 25 2015 08:15 TheYango wrote:
Lets wait till Glimmer Cape gets nerfed before we talk about how strong Cold Embrace is. That spell is literal invincibility mostly because Glimmer Cape covers magic damage so the physical immunity just has to pick up whats left.
I don't care that much about how op it is overall (pretty moot discussion anyway considering it's a spell that blocks 100% of some heroes' damage and basically 0% of others'), but what annoys me is how much impact a spell like cold embrace has on the viability of single-target right-click melees, particularly ones that are dependent on their first jump being successful (eg. Ursa). It just exacerbates the problem that solar crest introduced, only you can't even itemise against it properly.
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United States47024 Posts
Solar Crest didn't introduce that problem, nerf to Chrono/Sheep/Doom introduced that problem, it just didn't come up relevantly often until Solar Crest was in every game.
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At 16:32 in match 1910797115 (combat log time: 20:21.19) I used a level 1 Winter's Curse on an Ember Spirit. At 20:23.72 the Winter's Curse ended *and* the Ember Spirit was struck by his Bounty Hunter teammate, who had been caught by the Curse. This counted as a deny. Bug, or something I've overlooked?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hMPfaB4.jpg)
(Pay no attention to the 1-1-2 skillbuild. That was a very bad misclick.)
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i think its a bug and known to happen. i remember a patch where they were supposed to have fixed it
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It does seem like a bug, but the interaction makes sense in the Valve and Dota sort of way.
Just seems like a case of bad luck there. Rare occurrence, but I can see why it happened.
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SoCal8910 Posts
is that a bug tho? if he's in the middle of his animation and the debuff wears off he's no longer lost control of his character under the effects of winters curse. it feels like unfortunate timing more than a bug. but that's just IMO.
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I mean, a similar thing happens if you enchant a creep that is mid animation/projectile with enchantress for the last hit on an allied hero. So bug is relative, but this one is probably a bit more problematic due to the way that her ult works.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
in one of the patches:
--Fixed another case where an enemy with only Winter's Curse debuff could deny an ally
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They may be fixing cases but it does still happen on rare occasion
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I'd assume in this particular instance where you are in an attack animation about to hit (and deny) a low hp ally who has just lost the Winter's Curse debuff, you could theoretically spam a move command or something to avoid it?
If so it's really not that big a deal imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 04 2015 01:19 Jinxed wrote:
I mean, a similar thing happens if you enchant a creep that is mid animation/projectile with enchantress for the last hit on an allied hero. So bug is relative, but this one is probably a bit more problematic due to the way that her ult works.
That one's actually even present in DotA 1. There's an old top 10 where a Drow with HoD dominates a ranged creep with a projectile in flight toward her and denies herself.
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On September 25 2015 06:19 hariooo wrote:
cold embrace does seem like a ridiculous spell relative to just about any other support heal spell. it's a little confusing that her winrate isn't as ridiculous as i'd expect. 24% heal + looking at pros even who will right click the embraced target out of like spite or whatever is such crazzzzy value. maybe next to wisp for top 2 babysitters.
She has some atrocious base stats. her attack projectile is almost as slow as techies (and her range is very low for a support) and her base damage is like, CM low, as is her ms and hp pool. Pretty sure her armor is also quite low. She can only effectively trade if she blows her escape mechanism. If she wants to farm she's using mana for it. She's not great at ganking unless she has her ult, and that's a slightly extreme use. She's pretty much a hero who has on paper imbalanced abilities countered by having really bad base stats.
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am i reading this right ?? her ultimate does no damage anymore? is there a point to picking her now
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On December 20 2015 02:42 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
am i reading this right ?? her ultimate does no damage anymore? is there a point to picking her now
Only the curse target teammates can hurt during curse. So not really.
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On December 20 2015 02:42 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
am i reading this right ?? her ultimate does no damage anymore? is there a point to picking her now
The hero is balanced now. There are situations where it's a good pick, but it's not a must have anymore
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pretty sure this hero is terrible now, can only be used to waste 5s of bkb
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United States47024 Posts
It's basically a tiny Naga ult that damages one person.
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Huge nerf because curse is no longer useful for pickoffs. Yango describes it perfectly.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/thumb/c/c7/Winter_Wyvern_Large.png/250px-Winter_Wyvern_Large.png)
