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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 426

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
April 30 2013 06:08 GMT
#8501
On April 29 2013 21:11 taldarimAltar wrote:
since the change what time do i pull the dire top camp by the 2nd tower?


well i dono what has changed but the timing has traditionally been 2/32
manner
Xxazn4lyfe51xX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States976 Posts
April 30 2013 07:16 GMT
#8502
You mean the small camp? I pull at :06 or :36. Your results may vary I suppose.
nat
Profile Joined September 2010
216 Posts
April 30 2013 07:36 GMT
#8503
Why is it that the tournament tracker (on the upcoming event) on this site removed for dota2. I dont know where else to ask this question. I use it everyday now its gone.
Qbek
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Poland12923 Posts
April 30 2013 09:45 GMT
#8504
On April 30 2013 16:36 nat wrote:
Why is it that the tournament tracker (on the upcoming event) on this site removed for dota2. I dont know where else to ask this question. I use it everyday now its gone.

Check your sidebar settings. Also the closest dota2 game is in like 5 days
This space left intentionally dank /)3(\ http://i.imgur.com/RmeEUcF.png
Ryder.
Profile Joined January 2011
1117 Posts
April 30 2013 11:01 GMT
#8505
On April 30 2013 14:55 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.

The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.

TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)


The most obvious answer to your question is to initiate when you know you can get your creep to get hits on the opponent. If your creeps outnumber, especially if you have two ranged creeps stacked, you should always be ready to pull the trigger.

Another thing to factor in is the range/melee balance in the lane. If you're two melee going against two range, then even if creep waves are even and both sides will get womped on by creeps, the two melee are going to win. Positioning is also very important for this. Let's say you're a melee hero. If their range hero is at any time closer to you than their range creep AND you're closer to your tower than theirs, you have to be ready to attack.

As a rule of thumb, whichever side has less ranged heroes in the lane is the one that should be more aggressive and looking for kills.

Sorry I don't understand can you elaborate on the melee/range hero balance bit? Why will the 2 melee heroes win an exchange vs 2 ranged heroes?
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34504 Posts
April 30 2013 11:18 GMT
#8506
Uh, wat? That makes no sense to me either.
Moderator
Mithhaike
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore2759 Posts
April 30 2013 11:20 GMT
#8507
How can 2melee heroes outlane 2 range heroes? Chances are the 2 melee are going to be the ones outlaned even if the 2 range just uses auto attacks to harass?
Mew Mew Pew Pew
ReignSupreme.
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Australia4123 Posts
April 30 2013 11:53 GMT
#8508
Pretty much. You're going to be half HP before you even initiate unless you're playing coma patients...
FreeZer
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden288 Posts
April 30 2013 12:05 GMT
#8509
On April 29 2013 23:18 KOFgokuon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2013 21:16 FreeZer wrote:
On April 29 2013 11:10 KOFgokuon wrote:
On April 29 2013 04:42 kpp wrote:
Does heart regen no longer work with Wisp's tether? I was tethered to someone in a game not too long ago and he wasn't receiving heart regen at all.


The better question is why the hell did you have a heart


Heart is a great item on wisp, in a long game with many assists it's not unfeasible to get it.


If wisp is warding and buying support items I don't see how he'd ever get 5.5 k gold to buy a heart. If he has that much farm thats so much farm taken away from your carries but w/e


Like I said, in a long game with many assists. I've done it several times with good gold managing. Here's an example: http://dotabuff.com/matches/140056655

Not every piece of gold a support earns is a direct loss to their carries farm

Ahh Scept-- hey where did you come from?
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
April 30 2013 12:14 GMT
#8510
Situation: I'm the only support on the team, and realize at the 1min mark that the normal pullcamp is warded.

In what order should I buy those items: courier upgrade, sentry wards (to deward), observer wards (for other spots on the map)
FreeZer
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden288 Posts
April 30 2013 12:19 GMT
#8511
On April 30 2013 21:14 Zocat wrote:
Situation: I'm the only support on the team, and realize at the 1min mark that the normal pullcamp is warded.

In what order should I buy those items: courier upgrade, sentry wards (to deward), observer wards (for other spots on the map)


Depending on how important it is for you to get farm in easy lane, (Only one carry, or trilaning) you should consider buying sentries right from the start. In pubs, I would just save 200 gold and buy them if I see they have warded.
Ahh Scept-- hey where did you come from?
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
April 30 2013 12:21 GMT
#8512
On April 30 2013 20:01 Ryder. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 14:55 d_so wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.

The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.

TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)


The most obvious answer to your question is to initiate when you know you can get your creep to get hits on the opponent. If your creeps outnumber, especially if you have two ranged creeps stacked, you should always be ready to pull the trigger.

Another thing to factor in is the range/melee balance in the lane. If you're two melee going against two range, then even if creep waves are even and both sides will get womped on by creeps, the two melee are going to win. Positioning is also very important for this. Let's say you're a melee hero. If their range hero is at any time closer to you than their range creep AND you're closer to your tower than theirs, you have to be ready to attack.

As a rule of thumb, whichever side has less ranged heroes in the lane is the one that should be more aggressive and looking for kills.

Sorry I don't understand can you elaborate on the melee/range hero balance bit? Why will the 2 melee heroes win an exchange vs 2 ranged heroes?


Generally speaking, when you have 2 melee vs 2 ranged, most likely your two melee heroes have higher killing power whereas the two range are better at lane control. Lane control of is a more holistic thing: harassing, last hit/denying, etc. But the way dota has been designed now, when it comes to one instantaneous clash with full hp/mana/etc, two melee heroes are more likely to win out than two range.

First, there's just the HP difference. In the early laning phase, manipulating creep damage is like 30~40% of the equation, and since melee heroes generally have higher HP than ranged heroes they can withstand more punishment from creep. (I know i'm being mister obvious here). So what I was talking about before was, if you're in a situation where both your heroes and their heroes are getting equally damaged by creep, you're more likely to win out as two melee heroes strictly because you have more HP.

Also, generally speaking melee heroes have better stuns/slows and base damage. There are of course many exceptions to this, but once again generally speaking range heroes are better at chipping away at your HP, while melee heroes are better at chunking.
manner
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
April 30 2013 12:22 GMT
#8513
On April 30 2013 20:20 Mithhaike wrote:
How can 2melee heroes outlane 2 range heroes? Chances are the 2 melee are going to be the ones outlaned even if the 2 range just uses auto attacks to harass?


there needs to be a differentiation between lane control and kill power. Like I talked about in the other post, generally speaking ranged heroes, especially before level 6, are better at chipping away damage, whereas melee heroes are better at taking large chunks. Plus melee heroes generally have more effective slows and stuns in a 1-fight situation.
manner
imMUTAble787
Profile Joined November 2011
United States680 Posts
April 30 2013 12:32 GMT
#8514
Hi,

Could someone explain to me how to drop aggro from creeps and towers ?

I've had a few games where I lost a major advantage mid because I harass and get aggro from 3 creeps and lose health that I shouldn't be losing

Same goes with clearing tower aggro without running out of tower range.

I see people do it on streams etc all the time but haven't figured it out yet myself.
*eternalenvy fanboy*
Qbek
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Poland12923 Posts
April 30 2013 12:35 GMT
#8515
On April 30 2013 21:32 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Hi,

Could someone explain to me how to drop aggro from creeps and towers ?

I've had a few games where I lost a major advantage mid because I harass and get aggro from 3 creeps and lose health that I shouldn't be losing

Same goes with clearing tower aggro without running out of tower range.

I see people do it on streams etc all the time but haven't figured it out yet myself.

A-click (issue an attack command) a friendly unit. It makes creeps and towers reevaluate aggro.
This space left intentionally dank /)3(\ http://i.imgur.com/RmeEUcF.png
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34504 Posts
April 30 2013 13:04 GMT
#8516
On April 30 2013 21:21 d_so wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 20:01 Ryder. wrote:
On April 30 2013 14:55 d_so wrote:
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.

The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.

TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)


The most obvious answer to your question is to initiate when you know you can get your creep to get hits on the opponent. If your creeps outnumber, especially if you have two ranged creeps stacked, you should always be ready to pull the trigger.

Another thing to factor in is the range/melee balance in the lane. If you're two melee going against two range, then even if creep waves are even and both sides will get womped on by creeps, the two melee are going to win. Positioning is also very important for this. Let's say you're a melee hero. If their range hero is at any time closer to you than their range creep AND you're closer to your tower than theirs, you have to be ready to attack.

As a rule of thumb, whichever side has less ranged heroes in the lane is the one that should be more aggressive and looking for kills.

Sorry I don't understand can you elaborate on the melee/range hero balance bit? Why will the 2 melee heroes win an exchange vs 2 ranged heroes?


Generally speaking, when you have 2 melee vs 2 ranged, most likely your two melee heroes have higher killing power whereas the two range are better at lane control. Lane control of is a more holistic thing: harassing, last hit/denying, etc. But the way dota has been designed now, when it comes to one instantaneous clash with full hp/mana/etc, two melee heroes are more likely to win out than two range.

First, there's just the HP difference. In the early laning phase, manipulating creep damage is like 30~40% of the equation, and since melee heroes generally have higher HP than ranged heroes they can withstand more punishment from creep. (I know i'm being mister obvious here). So what I was talking about before was, if you're in a situation where both your heroes and their heroes are getting equally damaged by creep, you're more likely to win out as two melee heroes strictly because you have more HP.

Also, generally speaking melee heroes have better stuns/slows and base damage. There are of course many exceptions to this, but once again generally speaking range heroes are better at chipping away at your HP, while melee heroes are better at chunking.

There are so many exceptions to this that there is no point trying to list them. Going into a lane and judging which side is stronger because of ranged or melee is a horrible way to approach things, even for new players. Good players will always manipulate the lane in fine ways that extend beyond whether they are melee or ranged.
Moderator
imMUTAble787
Profile Joined November 2011
United States680 Posts
April 30 2013 13:08 GMT
#8517
On April 30 2013 21:35 Qbek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 21:32 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Hi,

Could someone explain to me how to drop aggro from creeps and towers ?

I've had a few games where I lost a major advantage mid because I harass and get aggro from 3 creeps and lose health that I shouldn't be losing

Same goes with clearing tower aggro without running out of tower range.

I see people do it on streams etc all the time but haven't figured it out yet myself.

A-click (issue an attack command) a friendly unit. It makes creeps and towers reevaluate aggro.


ahh ok. so does this only work if i have an allied unit or pet around me that is low enough for me to attempt to deny?
*eternalenvy fanboy*
Firebolt145
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Lalalaland34504 Posts
April 30 2013 13:12 GMT
#8518
On April 30 2013 22:08 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2013 21:35 Qbek wrote:
On April 30 2013 21:32 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Hi,

Could someone explain to me how to drop aggro from creeps and towers ?

I've had a few games where I lost a major advantage mid because I harass and get aggro from 3 creeps and lose health that I shouldn't be losing

Same goes with clearing tower aggro without running out of tower range.

I see people do it on streams etc all the time but haven't figured it out yet myself.

A-click (issue an attack command) a friendly unit. It makes creeps and towers reevaluate aggro.


ahh ok. so does this only work if i have an allied unit or pet around me that is low enough for me to attempt to deny?

Nope, doesn't matter if the unit is actually deniable when you attack move it. The tower and enemy units will usually retarget the closest unit to it.
Moderator
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
April 30 2013 13:25 GMT
#8519
On April 30 2013 21:14 Zocat wrote:
Situation: I'm the only support on the team, and realize at the 1min mark that the normal pullcamp is warded.

In what order should I buy those items: courier upgrade, sentry wards (to deward), observer wards (for other spots on the map)

All those 3 items should be bought right at the start in most cases. In pubgames in such a scenario I rather buy both wards and let the others know that someone has to buy a chicken because they're much more likely to spend a bit of gold or that than the other two.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Ryrmidon
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada371 Posts
April 30 2013 13:40 GMT
#8520
Any general tips to playing vs necrolyte mid? He can outharass almost any hero and has ridiculously good rune control >_<
"He can't beat me in a real game" IdrA
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