EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 427
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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negon
212 Posts
But yeah, Necro is a hard mid to play against. Just try not to die and grab as many lasthits as you can. Alternatively pick Nyx and make him cry. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:04 Firebolt145 wrote: There are so many exceptions to this that there is no point trying to list them. Going into a lane and judging which side is stronger because of ranged or melee is a horrible way to approach things, even for new players. Good players will always manipulate the lane in fine ways that extend beyond whether they are melee or ranged. Let me ask you a question: if you're in a dual melee lane and going against two range, what are your options? 1. You're most likely not going to be able to out-lane them if they're any good. The best bet will be to try and survive, level up and hope for a gank. 2. You can try to pull and passive farm but that leaves 1 melee against two range. 3. You can give up the lane, let one guy roam and gank while the other tries to survive. Same issue as number 2. 4. Switch lanes. 5. Go for kills. What do we know about melee heroes? In general, they have: 1. Higher base HP 2. Higher base damage 3. 4. Faster HP regen 5. Generally longer lasting disables 6. Lower mana pool, lower intel, etc. SINCE creep aggro is the single most important factor for getting kills in the early laning phase, it may be best to create a situation where both sides are equally getting wacked on by creep, since this is advantageous to melee heroes. In this type of scenario, you think of your range creep basically like how you'd think of a tower. Just as how you would throw down stuns the moment you are so lucky to get your tower to hit the opponent, the moment the opponent range hero mistakenly pulls a range creep's aggro, you have to think initiate! Then again i'm old and i haven't played dota 2 ever so take everything i say with a grain of salt.  | ||
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maru~
2345 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Otherwise though, I agree mostly. Dual melee or some other lane setup that will guaranteed get out-harassed needs to essentially kill the opponents or in some other way assert complete domninance as soon as possible (waiting to level 3 is common but often far too late). If the bid for control fails then you haven't lost all that much since you were losing the lane by playing passive anyway. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:40 Ryrmidon wrote: Any general tips to playing vs necrolyte mid? He can outharass almost any hero and has ridiculously good rune control >_< disclaimer: i'm old i play old and i've never played dota 2, so there's a good chance that i'm wrong. The easy answer is you can counter pick him with someone like silencer or pugna or even antimage. All three of them should be able to outlane a necro easy, even antimage since his BAT is off the chain. However, if you're thinking about a more general matchup issue, it's a good idea to analyze necrolyte's strengths & weaknesses. You've already covered the strengths, so i'll go over his weaknesses: 1. Low base damage 2. 400 range on his pulse = he needs MS 3. low HP and low armor. This can make him heavily pulse dependent. 4. His pulse requires a lot of mana. With his starting gold, necrolyte will attempt to compensate for any two of those weaknesses. Most likely it will be 3 and 4, by going bottle. This will require some analysis on your part, but if he did go bottle, that means you will most likely have higher base damage than him and he probably won't be able to harass you with his pulse. That means you should probably be able to out CS and out harass him. Take advantage of this early and try to make him use up his pulses fast and hope he doesn't get a rune. If the Necro ever gets up in your face and goes past his creep line, exposing himself to aggro from your creep (especially your range creep) punish the sh*t out of him. Remember: low hp/armor. Your creep will do more damage to him than he can hope to heal with one pulse, and then it's a matter of whether you can kill him before he gets his second pulse. This is especially true if you have hill advantage. But even if you don't get the kill, you probably cut his mana pool by 3/4, which is good. Unless he gets a rune of course. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:54 Sn0_Man wrote: Melee heroes really don't have a faster BAT in general. Otherwise though, I agree mostly. Dual melee or some other lane setup that will guaranteed get out-harassed needs to essentially kill the opponents or in some other way assert complete domninance as soon as possible (waiting to level 3 is common but often far too late). If the bid for control fails then you haven't lost all that much since you were losing the lane by playing passive anyway. yeah you're right. it's not BAT... what was it again? faster attack animations? i confuse the two a lot | ||
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imMUTAble787
United States680 Posts
On April 30 2013 22:12 Firebolt145 wrote: Nope, doesn't matter if the unit is actually deniable when you attack move it. The tower and enemy units will usually retarget the closest unit to it. wow thats awesome to know thanks for the help guys ^_^ | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34504 Posts
On April 30 2013 23:40 d_so wrote: Let me ask you a question: if you're in a dual melee lane and going against two range, what are your options? 1. You're most likely not going to be able to out-lane them if they're any good. The best bet will be to try and survive, level up and hope for a gank. 2. You can try to pull and passive farm but that leaves 1 melee against two range. 3. You can give up the lane, let one guy roam and gank while the other tries to survive. Same issue as number 2. 4. Switch lanes. 5. Go for kills. What do we know about melee heroes? In general, they have: 1. Higher base HP 2. Higher base damage 3. 4. Faster HP regen 5. Generally longer lasting disables 6. Lower mana pool, lower intel, etc. SINCE creep aggro is the single most important factor for getting kills in the early laning phase, it may be best to create a situation where both sides are equally getting wacked on by creep, since this is advantageous to melee heroes. In this type of scenario, you think of your range creep basically like how you'd think of a tower. Just as how you would throw down stuns the moment you are so lucky to get your tower to hit the opponent, the moment the opponent range hero mistakenly pulls a range creep's aggro, you have to think initiate! Then again i'm old and i haven't played dota 2 ever so take everything i say with a grain of salt. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, I'm saying that it is a horrible way to approach the lane because of the number of exceptions, as well as a bad way to learn the game. A lane should be approached by saying 'we have these heroes and these spells that allow us to do this, while they have these heroes that allow them to do that.' This can be difficult for newer players but it is still much better than an overarching approach of 'oh we're melee, conclusion: we need to kill them.' | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/waYggl.png) from here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=377503 tbh duallaning in pub is all about who made the mistake first or how do you handle over-aggressiveness from the opponents. Especially when you are duallaning hardlane you are not expecting your carry to farm well, so just let him get as much as last hit as possible while you make some nice harassment to trade hp with the oppo (successful trading is when you are barely scratched but you keeping oppo hp at half/low/or needed to spend their consumables) and then you go kill when there is an opportunity arises. While being flexible on skilling what spell/how to positioning yourself to do effective harassing are what making the game fun to play. And playing 6months is the exact meaning of a newcomer while most of veteran players are playing the game for more than 6+years by now. Not being an elitist here because many of the veteran players are still learning something new from time to time. Dota is a very deep game and that's why people have been playing it for so long now^^ I'd say dont stress yourself too much when you are laning like 2v2 (i know that feeling and mindset), just think of how to utilize your heroes to make the best out of the lane. A personal tips from me would be getting a TP ready so you can tp support another lane when needed. | ||
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
On May 01 2013 04:55 BurningSera wrote: tbh duallaning in pub is all about who made the mistake first or how do you handle over-aggressiveness from the opponents. Especially when you are duallaning hardlane you are not expecting your carry to farm well, so just let him get as much as last hit as possible while you make some nice harassment to trade hp with the oppo (successful trading is when you are barely scratched but you keeping oppo hp at half/low/or needed to spend their consumables) and then you go kill when there is an opportunity arises. While being flexible on skilling what spell/how to positioning yourself to do effective harassing are what making the game fun to play. And playing 6months is the exact meaning of a newcomer while most of veteran players are playing the game for more than 6+years by now. Not being an elitist here because many of the veteran players are still learning something new from time to time. Dota is a very deep game and that's why people have been playing it for so long now^^ I'd say dont stress yourself too much when you are laning like 2v2 (i know that feeling and mindset), just think of how to utilize your heroes to make the best out of the lane. A personal tips from me would be getting a TP ready so you can tp support another lane when needed. That's just it though, this is the tutorial stuff I (and tend to assume most of most people) read/figured out 2 weeks in. The closest thing anyone gave to a relavant answer was the one guy talking about how if the range creep aggros, you jump in, but do range creeps really have the DPS to justify it? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
However, by and large this isn't what makes the real difference. what makes the real difference is how much Disable (stun/slow/silence) you have and how much burst damage you have. If you have more ways to do a ton of damage fast OR ways to ensure you right click them for long periods of time OR ways to prevent them from fighting back then you should be able to "go" on them assuming they are in a semi-vulnerable position (aka not under their tower). If you lack those particular advantages then you must first establish a substantial HP advantage over them by either harassing them over time and regenerating any counter harass, OR by simply having much more HP via base health or strength items or w/e. All of this requires thinking about the capabilites of your enemies and of your own heroes. If you don't know what heroes do then you won't lane with or against them very well  EDIT: All this to say, this really isn't a "simple questions simple answers" kind of question. The balance of power in a lane can be very complex, especially in 2v2 lanes which aren't that common in pro play. Mostly it's just experience to know what qualifies as "out of position" and when you can kill somebody without dying in return. FWIW Very High skill bracket is full of people who constantly mis-assess who wins a simple lane clash (like me). | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
of course you have to take a bunch of other things into account, like how many consumables you all have, current hp, mana, etc, but it's pretty much impossible to give a more specific answer to such a broad question | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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Kmatt
United States1019 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Pretty much everything after that point about whether or not you should engage in a given scenario derives from those basics. Essentially, it's as Dead9 said from there on out, but that judgment of how much damage each side will take comes from your knowledge of those basics. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34504 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:29 d_so wrote: range creep dmg is worth it yo, 3 hits from a range creep is like 40 - 50 damage. In contrast your level 1 nuke will most likely do 75 damage. If you have the whole creep wave banging on him and u can keep him stunned/slowed there so they maintain aggro that's 150-ish damage just from creep. Against a ranged hero with a starting hp of low 500 that is very significant. Agreed, but that has less to do with whether you're a melee or ranged hero and more to do with whether you have a disable/slow and whether the opponent has an escape skill. That's the point I'm trying to make. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote: That's just it though, this is the tutorial stuff I (and tend to assume most of most people) read/figured out 2 weeks in. The closest thing anyone gave to a relavant answer was the one guy talking about how if the range creep aggros, you jump in, but do range creeps really have the DPS to justify it? On May 01 2013 05:33 Kmatt wrote: Alright, I think I ought to leave the thread because it's whoring too many posts and not getting anywhere. Thanks anyway. At least you now have a rough idea on the answer of your question from many nice posts from everyone^^ I'd say you are actually looking for 'how do i improve my understanding of the laning against enemy', especially when you are interested to the range aggro related stuffs, if thats the case, solo mid is the best training for that, you will understand more about laning with 1v1 (along with other aspects of the game). | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
All the info I can find seems to be conflicting or downright wrong. I believe it was reworked at some stage, so that might be the reason. Does every nearby enemy take the full 22%, or is it shared? Do creeps take the same damage as heroes? How much does distance affect it? I assume it's applied after all other damage reduction (armour etc)? That kind of stuff seems really unclear. | ||
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