|
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
|
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
If you think you can drop their HP to 0 without having yours drop to 0...?
|
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
you're new to dota? Are you supporting him? Maybe he jsut wants you to go behind their creepwaves & attack the guy without taking aggro of creeps, that's what you're supposed to do as a support in early laning phase, trade your regen items against solo laner regen and denies him xp.
|
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
Just a matter of experience. Since he's playing for so long I assume he has a decent understanding of the game, so if you can't see openings yourself just listen to him and go when he says go.
|
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
Just ask yourself, when you are 2v1 and the solo opponent is getting exp/farm or he maybe harassing you at the same time, is that even supposed to happen in the first place or how can you allow that to happen? The answer is you either go harass the hell out of him/chase him out of the exp range (he is not supposed to get any farm/exp) or you go deny his exp by stacking/pulling while allowing your carry getting all the exp.
When you are 2v2 then it is either both of you cant farm while the oppo are winning the lane or the other way around, then going in for the kill would be situational, usually happens when mistake occurs.
The common seen pub mistake is the support sitting behind watching the oppo taking exp/last hit, it is technically killing your carry slowly.
|
In the laning stage, If you can get the kill with good coordination and without dying, then you go for it. what your friend probably means by "he was near the creeps" is that if you all throw your spells on him in that specific scenario while hes slightly out of position near the creeps, then you can kill him quickly and then go back to farming. for instance, you and your friend are playing heroes with stuns in the safe lane, against an enemy solo or duo lacking in escapes or reliable damage, in that scenario, there will likely be plenty of opportunities to attempt to kill or trade advantageously. When you are in a dominate position in lane, even getting too close to the creeps can be a lethal mistake for your opponents.
I assume that your friends experience means that he is aware of what situations it is appropriate to dive the creeps/tower to go for heroes. That's actually a big part of the learning curve of dota, because every situation is different, and will require a different on-the-fly calculation to determine if you can get the kill and get out alive.
edit- on second reading I think you may be talking about supporting in lane, which is just about harassing the enemy lane mercilessly, generally as a ranged hero. whenever they come up to the lane, you should poke them with your auto attack and cast spells when you can trade positively.
|
Overall, you should try to determine which side has a stronger lane. If you're stronger, you should play more aggressive to crush the lane decisively. Likewise play defensive if you're weak etc. If your friend has been playing 7 years I'd just trust his judgment, he might notice the enemy walk into a stupid position and the reaction is to attack right away.
After a game you should ask him what he's thinking in particular. That way you can also understand how your friend thinks and predict it better in game vs just relying on what's happening in game. Get that good chemistry going.
|
There are really not a lot of lanes where both sides should just be sitting there trying to lasthit. One side or the other should be attempting to outright kill the opponents when given the chance, or barring that at least force them out of the lane. When neither side are terribly high-level, it is often right to simply assume a dominant position in lane via attempting to kill the enemy. The instinctive response to this is to play safe/submissive, which will guarantee the more dominant, aggressive players free farm in the lane.
I'm assuming your friend mostly wants you to make your presence felt by acting aggressive. It really does scare others out of lane even when it shouldn't.
|
I'm not even to begin quoting all of that
For one, I've been playing for about 6 months now, approaching 400 hours. I play fine with other friends, so I doubt I'm that new (I've hit the point where I consider myself entitled to complain to the Lich who spent his courier money on a soul ring recipe. I wish that was a joke). And for the record, it's always a 2v2 hardlane (why he loves hardlane so much I will never know). The most recent game was Tuskarr(me)+Antifun(Him) vs Jakiro and Timbersaw. I was using the "Rolling, Rolling, Rolling" build that had the most +1s and had been working well for me, when he insisted that getting snowball first was a mistake and that I had to max ice shards. Fair enough. Then he begins demanding that I throw it at what appears to be no trigger, except that when he calls for it, it means I'm supposed to already have used it, because there's the little "Go kill him for no apparent reason" light that flashes and I seem to miss.
What I meant to ask was "What triggers do you use to signal a kill?". It's not like I never get kills in lane, I can play fine with other friends or even randoms, but he seems to have these un-explainable scenarios that I am supposed to recognize by default, and I'm just not seeing it.
|
What kind of ally picks would it make sense for me to play Wisp? He's quite fun and I'm trying to learn him. So far ill consider him if one of my allies picks CK, Sven or Tiny. Are there any other obvious picks?
|
On April 30 2013 09:41 Ryder. wrote:
What kind of ally picks would it make sense for me to play Wisp? He's quite fun and I'm trying to learn him. So far ill consider him if one of my allies picks CK, Sven or Tiny. Are there any other obvious picks?
Ursa works, but since he has a slow and not a stun, you have to use the tether well.
|
On April 30 2013 09:41 Ryder. wrote:
What kind of ally picks would it make sense for me to play Wisp? He's quite fun and I'm trying to learn him. So far ill consider him if one of my allies picks CK, Sven or Tiny. Are there any other obvious picks?
Riki is another very common one, and I have also seen Wisp be strong with Juggs.
|
On April 30 2013 09:19 Kmatt wrote:
I'm not even to begin quoting all of that
For one, I've been playing for about 6 months now, approaching 400 hours. I play fine with other friends, so I doubt I'm that new (I've hit the point where I consider myself entitled to complain to the Lich who spent his courier money on a soul ring recipe. I wish that was a joke). And for the record, it's always a 2v2 hardlane (why he loves hardlane so much I will never know). The most recent game was Tuskarr(me)+Antifun(Him) vs Jakiro and Timbersaw. I was using the "Rolling, Rolling, Rolling" build that had the most +1s and had been working well for me, when he insisted that getting snowball first was a mistake and that I had to max ice shards. Fair enough. Then he begins demanding that I throw it at what appears to be no trigger, except that when he calls for it, it means I'm supposed to already have used it, because there's the little "Go kill him for no apparent reason" light that flashes and I seem to miss.
What I meant to ask was "What triggers do you use to signal a kill?". It's not like I never get kills in lane, I can play fine with other friends or even randoms, but he seems to have these un-explainable scenarios that I am supposed to recognize by default, and I'm just not seeing it.
youve played for 6 months
hes played for 7 years
he reads the game much better than you unless he is a completely terrible computer game player
its not unusual that you wouldnt recognise scenarios in which you can get a kill when he can. i experience the same thing with friends who have played considerably less than me. just do what he says, and if you end up getting the kills, youll learn. if you dont, then hes not as good as he thinks
|
Really what it boils down to is, your trigger to signal a kill is usually quite simply, you see your opponent in a situation in which you yourself have been killed in before, you see a situation where an ally has killed before, you see a situation in which you've seen someone kill before/be killed before ie. on a stream, etc. These situations become more apparent and more numerous with experience. Someone who's played for 7 years will have died and seen people die in countless situations and consciously, or subconsciously memorized many of them.
It's not hard to believe that your friend is seeing opportunities where you aren't, simply because he's seen them happen before throughout his time playing dota. Most lower level players don't realize how even a slight over-extension can get them killed against people who know what they're doing. As you play with better and better people, you will find your over-extensions punished far more often, and in that regard, learn more about what you can do to both avoid, and punish others as well.
|
Whats a good Slark build. I only recently started to play him, Im pretty new to him. I prolly only played him once in WC3.
I really like this hero, I feel like he fits my style. Hes very gung-ho and great at initiating. Normally I like to get early PMS, Aqui Ring, Magic Stick, and Treads. Then after that its SNY (for HP and movespeed) and then Basher into Abyssal. Is that a fine build to do, or is there something I should be doing different.
|
United States47024 Posts
Generally Drums are more suitable for Slark than Aquila. The movespeed supplements his ulti (the lower ranks won't give you 522 MS so the additional MS is good), and he needs the early Strength quite badly because of his poor Strength growth.
S&Y is good, though generally you want to sit on the Yasha for a while because it's the more cost-effective component. Generally you will want BKB and Butterfly, as Basher is more or less an item for sticking on people/dueling with carries when you ALREADY have suitable staying power and damage in fights.
|
On April 30 2013 05:07 Kmatt wrote:
What are the criteria to determine "let's sit back and grab last hits" vs "kill the crap out of that guy"? Whenever I play with my one friend (played for almost 7 years 0.o) he is always expecting me to initiate on people at the weirdest times. English isn't his native language (though he's been here at least 4 years), so that might be the barrier, but I can never get him to quite explain when I should and shouldn't jump on people.
The biggest issue I have is where we're all standing at the creep wave and his reasoning is that "he was near the creeps", but I can't see what I'm supposed to get there, and he'll only call for it at certain times (more of an exclamation than anything, and according to him I'm supposed to be able to judge this without any input). Even if my snowballing on someone makes every creep aggro him, they path block me more than anything, and it's their creeps that'll attack me. There are a number of other scenarios, but this is the most common one.
TL;DR-What makes you decide to jump in and kill someone in early laning? (besides the obvious "they're at low hp", or :you have stun+bladefury", etc.)
The most obvious answer to your question is to initiate when you know you can get your creep to get hits on the opponent. If your creeps outnumber, especially if you have two ranged creeps stacked, you should always be ready to pull the trigger.
Another thing to factor in is the range/melee balance in the lane. If you're two melee going against two range, then even if creep waves are even and both sides will get womped on by creeps, the two melee are going to win. Positioning is also very important for this. Let's say you're a melee hero. If their range hero is at any time closer to you than their range creep AND you're closer to your tower than theirs, you have to be ready to attack.
As a rule of thumb, whichever side has less ranged heroes in the lane is the one that should be more aggressive and looking for kills.
|
Drums makes a lot more sense than Aquila. And also, BKB seems to be the most logical choice over Basher. Thanks.
|
On April 30 2013 00:10 maru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 23:54 Ryder. wrote:
What is the trick to dealing with 5 man dota? Some games the enemy team will group up as 5 and roam and push heavy together and I don't know how to deal with it...it can be hard working getting all 5 team mates to defend a tower and if you have any less than 5 often you will just lose the fight. Splitpush, farm, defend highground.
A few steps for this:
1. Ward.
2. Carry TP and keep towers alive as long as possible.
Wards will allow you to see them make their movements into the forest or whatnot. (Unless there's smoke of course)
Carrying TPs is very important. This is very obvious but needs to be reiterated: It is much faster to port to a tower than to move as a gank squad. The best way to beat the 5 man is to farm the two non-threatened lanes as much as possible, then to port in to the threatened lane as late as possible while still making it on time. This only works if you keep your towers alive though!
|
On April 30 2013 09:41 Ryder. wrote:
What kind of ally picks would it make sense for me to play Wisp? He's quite fun and I'm trying to learn him. So far ill consider him if one of my allies picks CK, Sven or Tiny. Are there any other obvious picks?
Wisp honestly works with most melee heroes. Here are some good ones:
Wisp + Axe at your weak lane, with axe going a call helix hunger hunger hunger build
Wisp + Pudge
Wisp + Spirit Breaker
Wisp + CK/Sven/Tiny, like you said.
yeah wisp is imba
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
