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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 399

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8943 Posts
April 12 2013 10:53 GMT
#7961
On April 11 2013 16:33 TheYango wrote:
You activate it so that it hits you during the 0.1 second invuln time.

Takes some practice and requires pretty low ping to do consistently.

Wasnt sure if sarcastic but "some practice" is a pretty big understatement lol. Some luck and lan-like ping is minimum requirements
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
April 12 2013 12:13 GMT
#7962
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8943 Posts
April 12 2013 13:25 GMT
#7963
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 13:34:49
April 12 2013 13:33 GMT
#7964
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
TOCHMY
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Sweden1692 Posts
April 12 2013 13:34 GMT
#7965
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.


Multitasking is one of the things that makes good players great.
Yoona <3 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Look! It's Totoro! ☉.☉☂
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
April 12 2013 13:44 GMT
#7966
On April 12 2013 22:34 TOCHMY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.


Multitasking is one of the things that makes good players great.

Since it's important for the sake of understanding what goes on in our brains: For most people multitasking is a myth. It doesn't work and it's not time efficient. Instead of trying to "multitask" (e.g. lasthitting while positioning to avoid harass while watching the minimap while memorizing important cooldowns) it is much more efficient to focus on organized serial tasking. A pattern like "Watch minimap -> adjust positioning -> lasthit -> check clock for when cooldowns are off -> repeat" is a stronger option when you care for time efficiency.

What most people confuse with multitasking is being called "continuous partial attention" (CPA), which, in the above example would mean focussing on lasthitting/positioning while relying on peripheral vision for the minimap and an important time at the clock. This is different because it means that each individual task is not executed at 100% performance.

tl;dr: Depending on the situation it is important to switch between focus, serial tasking and CPA. Now which is the strongest in which situation is a whole different ballgame but it's important to know that these things exist and have different goals.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
TOCHMY
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Sweden1692 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 14:36:15
April 12 2013 13:46 GMT
#7967
On April 12 2013 22:44 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 22:34 TOCHMY wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.


Multitasking is one of the things that makes good players great.

Since it's important for the sake of understanding what goes on in our brains: For most people multitasking is a myth. It doesn't work and it's not time efficient. Instead of trying to "multitask" (e.g. lasthitting while positioning to avoid harass while watching the minimap while memorizing important cooldowns) it is much more efficient to focus on organized serial tasking. A pattern like "Watch minimap -> adjust positioning -> lasthit -> check clock for when cooldowns are off -> repeat" is a stronger option when you care for time efficiency.

What most people confuse with multitasking is being called "continuous partial attention" (CPA), which, in the above example would mean focussing on lasthitting/positioning while relying on peripheral vision for the minimap and an important time at the clock. This is different because it means that each individual task is not executed at 100% performance.

tl;dr: Depending on the situation it is important to switch between focus, serial tasking and CPA. Now which is the strongest in which situation is a whole different ballgame but it's important to know that these things exist and have different goals.

yeah thats what i meant

EDIT: for the record, I will still call it multitasking in the future. Sorry
Yoona <3 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Look! It's Totoro! ☉.☉☂
MSGHero
Profile Joined December 2012
United States147 Posts
April 12 2013 16:11 GMT
#7968
Jeez, I meant when I'm pushing a lane deep into enemy territory and a wild sven or something appears and tries to stun me. Not like during a teamfight x.x
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8943 Posts
April 12 2013 16:52 GMT
#7969
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
April 12 2013 17:43 GMT
#7970
On April 13 2013 01:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.

It does help a LOT though. Of course, its different from practicing it in a vaccum vs in a real game, but the difference between practicing it in a vacuum and not practicing at all is pretty dramatic, overall.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 17:47:45
April 12 2013 17:47 GMT
#7971
This argument came from nothing since it's quite easy to dodge projectiles with manta.
Now the hard thing to do, is to dodge with split shot :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 17:53:33
April 12 2013 17:52 GMT
#7972
Split Shot's transformation time is actually the exact same as Manta's invuln time. And it has no CD, so it actually should be easier to dodge things with Split Shot.

Though with Split Shot it's not truly dodging the projectile since you still take damage--it's just that stuns applied during transformations are negated. Manta Style provides 0.1 seconds of actual invulnerability.
Moderator
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
April 12 2013 18:01 GMT
#7973
Oh, that explains a lot, so its the same as sylla transformation ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
April 12 2013 18:33 GMT
#7974
I thought syllas can dodge damage?
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 18:48:00
April 12 2013 18:46 GMT
#7975
On April 13 2013 03:33 PassiveAce wrote:
I thought syllas can dodge damage?

It currently does, but isn't supposed to. It's a known bug with all transformations that dodge stuns.
Moderator
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
April 12 2013 18:54 GMT
#7976
On April 13 2013 01:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.

What you're saying is equivalent to someone telling a Boxer that training footwork outside of the ring is stupid because it's not part of a real fight. It's wrong.

Isolated practice is the conscious effort to practice a certain skill. Enough practice means said skill can be executed more and more unconsciously at which point random variables matter less and less. This is more time-efficient than building a Manta on every hero for the next thousand games and trying to dodge projectiles with it.

PS: People who practice a new build order in real games and not in singleplayer until they get their execution right are equally practicing badly. The multiplayer variant allows you to practice lots of different skills at once (most of which will be highly inefficient) and might be more fun (which is the main reason people do it). It is not more time-efficient however.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8943 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 19:32:36
April 12 2013 19:20 GMT
#7977
On April 13 2013 03:54 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 01:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.

What you're saying is equivalent to someone telling a Boxer that training footwork outside of the ring is stupid because it's not part of a real fight. It's wrong.

Isolated practice is the conscious effort to practice a certain skill. Enough practice means said skill can be executed more and more unconsciously at which point random variables matter less and less. This is more time-efficient than building a Manta on every hero for the next thousand games and trying to dodge projectiles with it.

PS: People who practice a new build order in real games and not in singleplayer until they get their execution right are equally practicing badly. The multiplayer variant allows you to practice lots of different skills at once (most of which will be highly inefficient) and might be more fun (which is the main reason people do it). It is not more time-efficient however.

theres only so much practice can do for you
if youre telling me that with "practice", you can consistently stop a clock within 0.1 second of me yelling "STOP", then ok you win. but unless you can prove to me that enough practice gives someone such godlike reaction speed that you can dodge svens stun with manta style, im not convinced. also, the starcraft analogy favours me. you cant construct a build order around single player because half the work required in practicing/developing build orders is knowing how the opponent will react. single player doesnt have that element, and therefore build orders cannot be practiced in single player mode. mechanics are a whole other thing, but its not the point.


edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.
Mandini
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1717 Posts
April 12 2013 19:26 GMT
#7978
I would argue that dodging stormhammer is a mechanic
MSGHero
Profile Joined December 2012
United States147 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 19:40:48
April 12 2013 19:38 GMT
#7979
On April 13 2013 04:26 Mandini wrote:
I would argue that dodging stormhammer is a mechanic

I just wait for the projectile to get within a certain distance and then jam the manta key, and I learned that from looking at the timings in a practice lobby. It's not like the projectile speed is a variable that changes midgame, and I don't know why sc2 build orders got brought up...

On April 13 2013 04:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.

It only hits you after manta if you used manta too early, in dota2.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 12 2013 19:39 GMT
#7980
On April 13 2013 04:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.

This is correct in DotA 1 because Storm Bolt is a triggered spell so it will still stun you despite your unit being hidden.

However, IIRC DotA 2 doesn't make this distinction at the moment.
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