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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 400

Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy
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Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
April 12 2013 19:40 GMT
#7981
Even if he stuns the creep you are standing next to the Manta invulnerable time should still dodge the sven stun/damage.

However, I have a hard time doing these things because with a .1 second window pings of 140 and up really suck.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
April 12 2013 19:40 GMT
#7982
On April 13 2013 04:26 Mandini wrote:
I would argue that dodging stormhammer is a mechanic

is it? technically it might be but ive always referred to mechanics as the things you always do in the background every game. ive never referred to game changing once-every-10-games micro as mechanics
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 19:45:09
April 12 2013 19:42 GMT
#7983
On April 13 2013 04:39 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.

This is correct in DotA 1 because Storm Bolt is a triggered spell so it will still stun you despite your unit being hidden.

However, IIRC DotA 2 doesn't make this distinction at the moment.


it does. im not sure 0.1 seconds is the correct number though. actually a lot easier than expected.

On April 13 2013 04:38 MSGHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:26 Mandini wrote:
I would argue that dodging stormhammer is a mechanic

I just wait for the projectile to get within a certain distance and then jam the manta key, and I learned that from looking at the timings in a practice lobby. It's not like the projectile speed is a variable that changes midgame, and I don't know why sc2 build orders got brought up...

they were an example. and the projectile speed doesnt change sure, but when 20 other things are happening during a fight, chances are you wont be concentrating properly on that sven stun. that was the point i was trying to make
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 12 2013 19:45 GMT
#7984
If you think the Manta animation time is too long, that's something to investigate. As far as I can find, there's no existing report of such a bug.
Moderator
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 19:49:21
April 12 2013 19:48 GMT
#7985
well i just tried dodging with split shot. 5 reaver + mana shield medusa dies before i even got off 1.
in comparison manta only took me 2 tries, before i get it for the next 4 consecutive tries.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 12 2013 19:58 GMT
#7986
There's a bug report for Medusa not being able to dodge with Split Shot. The responses were inconsistent, so it never got officially filed, but its possible that it's bugged.
Moderator
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
April 12 2013 20:02 GMT
#7987
On April 13 2013 04:58 TheYango wrote:
There's a bug report for Medusa not being able to dodge with Split Shot. The responses were inconsistent, so it never got officially filed, but its possible that it's bugged.

just tried with alche too. he gets the transformation off but remains stunned. either its impossible with sven or transformation dodging is broken
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14081 Posts
April 12 2013 20:04 GMT
#7988
On April 13 2013 04:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 03:54 r.Evo wrote:
On April 13 2013 01:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.

What you're saying is equivalent to someone telling a Boxer that training footwork outside of the ring is stupid because it's not part of a real fight. It's wrong.

Isolated practice is the conscious effort to practice a certain skill. Enough practice means said skill can be executed more and more unconsciously at which point random variables matter less and less. This is more time-efficient than building a Manta on every hero for the next thousand games and trying to dodge projectiles with it.

PS: People who practice a new build order in real games and not in singleplayer until they get their execution right are equally practicing badly. The multiplayer variant allows you to practice lots of different skills at once (most of which will be highly inefficient) and might be more fun (which is the main reason people do it). It is not more time-efficient however.

theres only so much practice can do for you
if youre telling me that with "practice", you can consistently stop a clock within 0.1 second of me yelling "STOP", then ok you win. but unless you can prove to me that enough practice gives someone such godlike reaction speed that you can dodge svens stun with manta style, im not convinced. also, the starcraft analogy favours me. you cant construct a build order around single player because half the work required in practicing/developing build orders is knowing how the opponent will react. single player doesnt have that element, and therefore build orders cannot be practiced in single player mode. mechanics are a whole other thing, but its not the point.


edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.

If you want to improve a specific skill/situation (e.g. dodging shit with manta) doing it 1000 times in isolated practice beats doing it 1000 times in real games.

It's that simple.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
April 12 2013 20:06 GMT
#7989
For some reason this discussion reminded me of a rubick who stole LD ulti, turned into a bear, then lost the steal (either from death or time I'm not sure but I'd assume death). He was stuck as a (very slow) bear for the rest of the game (although he got rabid a few times to speed up XD).

Watching a small Lone Druid Ulti-form rubick cast spells like Jugg spin was hilarious though (especially in a decently-serious IXDL game as opposed to, say OMG mode).
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 20:09:40
April 12 2013 20:08 GMT
#7990
On April 13 2013 05:04 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 13 2013 03:54 r.Evo wrote:
On April 13 2013 01:52 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:33 r.Evo wrote:
On April 12 2013 22:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On April 12 2013 21:13 Andr3 wrote:
No it isn't. Run a test map and practice it, I assure you the only thing you need to do is follow the enemy spell-cast animation and learn the timing.

As long as you have consistent ping it doesn't matter if it's 50 or 200. You get accustomed to either one eventually.

I'm not saying it's exactly easy to do, because in the middle of teamfights and during the game when there's bunch of stuff happening you'll have to be really aware to pull-off manta dodging, but it all comes down to practice. No luck or low ping required.(just consistent ping)

practicing a set situation over and over in a controlled environment (i.e test game) is not the same as pulling it off in a normal game. to be able to pull it off in a normal game you need a substantial amount of luck, because its impossible for you to be concentrating solely on dodging that stun with manta, unless that was your intention from the beginning, which means you probably werent concentrating on the game itself.

Wrong. Every single skill can and should be - if you aim for time efficient improvement - practiced in a vacuum. Even better it is easier to practice skills in a vacuum and leads to better results quicker. Why? Because you're able to consciously practice things to the point where they become unconscious.

Practicing slow, practicing isolated tasks in controlled environments are the prime tools for getting better at a certain skill. They usually aren't what people consider "fun" though, that's why gaming communities tend to not acknowledge them.

practicing those skills in controlled environments dont prepare you for variables. when you know the stun is coming because YOU cast it, its much easier than when you have to be on the lookout for when a different person decides to throw the stun. you dont practice build orders against bots, you practice against people. and things like these when the margin for error is so small (0.1seconds to quote yango), its impossible to say you can consistently and reliably dodge the stun when you have to account for the hundreds of other things that could be going on at the same time.

What you're saying is equivalent to someone telling a Boxer that training footwork outside of the ring is stupid because it's not part of a real fight. It's wrong.

Isolated practice is the conscious effort to practice a certain skill. Enough practice means said skill can be executed more and more unconsciously at which point random variables matter less and less. This is more time-efficient than building a Manta on every hero for the next thousand games and trying to dodge projectiles with it.

PS: People who practice a new build order in real games and not in singleplayer until they get their execution right are equally practicing badly. The multiplayer variant allows you to practice lots of different skills at once (most of which will be highly inefficient) and might be more fun (which is the main reason people do it). It is not more time-efficient however.

theres only so much practice can do for you
if youre telling me that with "practice", you can consistently stop a clock within 0.1 second of me yelling "STOP", then ok you win. but unless you can prove to me that enough practice gives someone such godlike reaction speed that you can dodge svens stun with manta style, im not convinced. also, the starcraft analogy favours me. you cant construct a build order around single player because half the work required in practicing/developing build orders is knowing how the opponent will react. single player doesnt have that element, and therefore build orders cannot be practiced in single player mode. mechanics are a whole other thing, but its not the point.


edit: ok. so i just tested this shit. is it just me or is dodging svens stun just like dodging any other projectile. last i checked (atleast in dota1), svens stun still hit you after you popped manta.

If you want to improve a specific skill/situation (e.g. dodging shit with manta) doing it 1000 times in isolated practice beats doing it 1000 times in real games.

It's that simple.

obviously youll improve. im not denying that. i was saying you cant CONSISTENTLY do it in a normal game even after the practice. not if the margin of error is 0.1 seconds. ive been proven wrong now, since i did just consistently do it, but im not supposed to be able to.
if we discuss this more this will turn into the gd thread, so lets just stop here.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-12 20:15:26
April 12 2013 20:10 GMT
#7991
On April 13 2013 05:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
For some reason this discussion reminded me of a rubick who stole LD ulti, turned into a bear, then lost the steal (either from death or time I'm not sure but I'd assume death). He was stuck as a (very slow) bear for the rest of the game (although he got rabid a few times to speed up XD).

Watching a small Lone Druid Ulti-form rubick cast spells like Jugg spin was hilarious though (especially in a decently-serious IXDL game as opposed to, say OMG mode).


I like wolf Rubick (lycan steal) who shoots fireballs out of his mouth. Plus a max movespeed hero with a disable is pretty deadly.
Logo
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
April 12 2013 20:16 GMT
#7992
On April 13 2013 05:10 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 05:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
For some reason this discussion reminded me of a rubick who stole LD ulti, turned into a bear, then lost the steal (either from death or time I'm not sure but I'd assume death). He was stuck as a (very slow) bear for the rest of the game (although he got rabid a few times to speed up XD).

Watching a small Lone Druid Ulti-form rubick cast spells like Jugg spin was hilarious though (especially in a decently-serious IXDL game as opposed to, say OMG mode).


I like wolf Rubick (lycan steal) who shoots fireballs out of his mouth. Plus a max movespeed hero with a disable is pretty deadly.


Yeah but he turns back into rubick eventually. F4L never did hahaha. He complained soooo much over voice. "OMG I'm sooooo slow f*** this game"
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18919 Posts
April 12 2013 20:40 GMT
#7993
On April 13 2013 04:45 TheYango wrote:
If you think the Manta animation time is too long, that's something to investigate. As far as I can find, there's no existing report of such a bug.

IIRC, manta in dota2 was bugged and used to allow you to dodge for .3 seconds or something (unless that was a balance change...).

They changed that, though.
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Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-13 00:49:19
April 13 2013 00:46 GMT
#7994
What should you focus on mid to keep an opposing Pudge from devouring your whole team? Particularly for heroes like OD/QE invoker that can control the lane but don't love constantly running to countergank.

I find that even if I keep his cs and levels down, maybe even force him to deny himself once or twice, he'll still roll out to the sidelanes as soon as he has ult and a few levels of hook and then my teammates will feed him stacks until he's ahead.

People - me included, I'm sure - are just so bad at dealing with him at my level that even a barely competent Pudge can just stomp and stomp.
Cyx.
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada806 Posts
April 13 2013 01:07 GMT
#7995
On April 13 2013 04:40 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2013 04:26 Mandini wrote:
I would argue that dodging stormhammer is a mechanic

is it? technically it might be but ive always referred to mechanics as the things you always do in the background every game. ive never referred to game changing once-every-10-games micro as mechanics

I wouldn't say dodging storm hammer is a mechanic but I'd totally call using manta and similar transformations to dodge stuns a mechanic, there are definitely enough heroes in the game with those kind of abilities/heroes that build manta that it's a skill that's totally useful in a ton of situations =P not that it's like super important or anything
EtherealBlade
Profile Joined August 2010
660 Posts
April 13 2013 02:43 GMT
#7996
On April 13 2013 09:46 Belisarius wrote:
What should you focus on mid to keep an opposing Pudge from devouring your whole team? Particularly for heroes like OD/QE invoker that can control the lane but don't love constantly running to countergank.

I find that even if I keep his cs and levels down, maybe even force him to deny himself once or twice, he'll still roll out to the sidelanes as soon as he has ult and a few levels of hook and then my teammates will feed him stacks until he's ahead.

People - me included, I'm sure - are just so bad at dealing with him at my level that even a barely competent Pudge can just stomp and stomp.


Ward behind the trees. Not much else you can do if they still keep dying despite knowing that a pudge is missing.
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8897 Posts
April 13 2013 06:40 GMT
#7997
On April 13 2013 09:46 Belisarius wrote:
What should you focus on mid to keep an opposing Pudge from devouring your whole team? Particularly for heroes like OD/QE invoker that can control the lane but don't love constantly running to countergank.

I find that even if I keep his cs and levels down, maybe even force him to deny himself once or twice, he'll still roll out to the sidelanes as soon as he has ult and a few levels of hook and then my teammates will feed him stacks until he's ahead.

People - me included, I'm sure - are just so bad at dealing with him at my level that even a barely competent Pudge can just stomp and stomp.


wards. even sentries if you think he might go for the dendi style "buy my own smoke" approach.
if youre od you cant really do much, but if youre qe invoker you can actually just follow him around. go for the forge spirit build and use them as scouts/bodyguards. cold snap him if he comes close so that he cant eat you.
Invictus
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Singapore2697 Posts
April 13 2013 08:13 GMT
#7998
For spectre, does all hauntings proc desolate no matter whether there are any allied units nearby or not? i swear that whenever i haunt with spectre i see the desolate procs on my haunts during teamfights while the main spectre procs desolate whenever there are no allied units nearby..

Lee Jaedong Fighting!
Shaella
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States14828 Posts
April 13 2013 08:27 GMT
#7999
On April 13 2013 17:13 Invictus wrote:
For spectre, does all hauntings proc desolate no matter whether there are any allied units nearby or not? i swear that whenever i haunt with spectre i see the desolate procs on my haunts during teamfights while the main spectre procs desolate whenever there are no allied units nearby..


to not get hit by desolate, you have to be quite close to an allied unit
don't tell me to provide a legend for those charts cause we already got shaella in this thread - eieio | Bulba is my waifu
10734
Profile Joined September 2012
340 Posts
April 13 2013 10:00 GMT
#8000
What items should I get on wisp? Can't choose between all the items that are good on him.
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