EPTThe thrench is really bad but inceptedly bad aswell. In AP rosh is not allways warded as most people tend to pick there favorite hero's (famous 5 carry strat). But alot of people do ping rosh when they are missing an ursa or lycan.
[Hero] Lycan - Page 20
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govie
9334 Posts
The thrench is really bad but inceptedly bad aswell. In AP rosh is not allways warded as most people tend to pick there favorite hero's (famous 5 carry strat). But alot of people do ping rosh when they are missing an ursa or lycan. | ||
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Rybka
United States836 Posts
On April 18 2014 03:02 govie wrote: The thrench is really bad but inceptedly bad aswell. In AP rosh is not allways warded as most people tend to pick there favorite hero's (famous 5 carry strat). But alot of people do ping rosh when they are missing an ursa or lycan. I'm 3.4k and often queue with 3900-4200 teammates, and I still see Rosh fall uncontested to Lycan/Ursa all of the time. I would even say more often than not... | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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auschwitz
2 Posts
Both are good, but because people tend to ward the easy camp, starting on the hard seems better. practised a bit of jungling and generally i can finish roshan in around 8 mins plus if nothing goes too wrong. i'm pretty new to the hero though, and have some issues. recently i've been going the BoT necro splitpush with AC build which generally goes very well. it tends to have some issues against some stunners/tankers when the other side counterpicks---mainly axe, bristle, tiny. to a lesser extent ES. basically once i see them on the minimap i have to run away, if not i get caught in the blink and stun=back to fountain again. should i be trying some other build against such heroes like basher/bkb? | ||
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MushkulPesent
22 Posts
For the below 4000 mmr players: there is even a better way to start. Below 4000, easy camp is usully not blocked and supports doesnt need to pull it in the first wave anyway. So basically if you summon wolf at -00:03 and go to easy camp, clear the camp back off let it respawn and kill it again, at 01:10 you are level 2 guarenteed. After this point go to a mid camp or a hard camp depending on spawns, and continue farming as usual. If you start like this, there is no way you could die without having mask of death. I tried it 30+ times, even in the worst case of jungle ( full of centaurs,ursas) still you can get 900 gold before you suicide. And it is much easier to go hard/mid camps with 1 level feral, if you are not so good at microing wolfs. So basically, for not so high bracket players out there, start with 2 easy camps, it is mathematically superior. | ||
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NeoRussia
Canada381 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
On April 22 2014 15:16 MushkulPesent wrote: For the below 4000 mmr players: there is even a better way to start. Below 4000, easy camp is usully not blocked and supports doesnt need to pull it in the first wave anyway. So basically if you summon wolf at -00:03 and go to easy camp, clear the camp back off let it respawn and kill it again, at 01:10 you are level 2 guarenteed. So basically, for not so high bracket players out there, start with 2 easy camps, it is mathematically superior. I really disagree with this post, especially this part. In-experienced players should be pushed to learn 'advanced' techniques and apply it to their daily play to improve and get another trick above players of their equal skill. Not to mention it's just as easy to kill hard Trolls Satyr or medium Satyr Wolf camps for a quick level 2. RNG might fuck you over, but no matter the MMR please leave your easy camp to safe lane to use. It isn't hard to jungle Lycan at all, it's only hard if there's RNG and experienced players on the other team so please don't gimp people and their team to go for the easy camps because even if you get good easy camp RNG, you will likely fuck over your team's safelane. Not to mention the camp would likely be blocked at most levels of play, even at 2k. Yes, people who are bad at the game do know about techniques because they often see other people do it and incorporate it into their play. Even for Centaur stomp and Ursa clap 'micro' it should be easy enough for a player to understand that he should try to agro with all 3 units at the same time then run back and re-adjust agro. Also becuz easy camp imba too much DPS nerf ghost camp. On April 22 2014 17:51 Laurens wrote: Someone pointed it out in this thread, you have to move Lycan on top of the neutrals, then he will get the aggro. So don't a-click, but right-click him 'through' the creeps and a-click when you're right on top of them. This mostly applies to golems and ogres. Yeh, most of the time you move click, attack then send wolves in. If wolves likely to expire during the camp farming, just use them to tank. But it's just as easy to go ballistic on them by just right clicking then quickly send wolves in at any camp, especially at lvl 5. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
1. SR = 100% wolves usage I think there's not a single argument that can dispute this. Wolves are 145 mana every 30s. SR gives you 150 mana every 30s, not counting the 50% mana regen. There is no doubt that SR can sustain the usage of wolves. On the other hand, you cannot do the same with just Vlad's until you get your Necro. Medallion would help, but that's additional gold. Either way, I wouldn't say which is superior. The only point is that SR is a valid item for mana regen purposes. 2. Early fighting prowess + pushing Some arguments for Vlad's is that you need it to actually fight heroes or to push. I'm not really convinced by it yet, because I don't see what it gives that an early Necro 1 doesn't. Do you deal more DPS to heroes with Vlads than with a Necro 1? I do not feel the argument that Vlad's boost your allies' DPS is strong too, because realistically Lycan doesn't participate in fights that early except for skirmishes to clean up heroes. While the argument may be true, I don't think it's that significantly better as compared to an early Necro 1. Similarly, do you actually push much better with Vlad's than a Necro 1? Do you push better with Vlad's + Necro 1 than Necro 3? I think from math that it isn't the case, as you have more EHP/DPS with the latter for both cases. 3. Roshan Some have argued that you need Vlad's (+ Medallion?) to do Roshan. I think you are able to do it with just a straight Necro 1 as well, and I don't think the time difference is that great either. I don't see how Vlad's + Medallion is that much superior to SR + Necro 1 for this purpose. 4. HP regen I think this point is debatable. For jungling, you don't need lifesteal at all as level 7 Wolves can tank for you. The wolves also don't need the lifesteal aura because of their 15HP regen. As for fights, I don't think anyone can handle Lycan's DPS anyway in a manfight. If nukes are the one killing you, then Vlad's will not help either way. I suppose it could be argued that if after a fight you are at low HP, you could lifesteal the HP back. If that is really a concern though, I think HotD would be better for this purpose. You build towards a future Satanic that is much better for fighting. You also have an extra creep. Either way, I see most Lycan players would just head back to base since they are probably low on mana anyway. While still a plausible point, I don't see much benefits in getting Vlad's. 5. Mid late game fighting prowess + pushing Well everyone will definitely have their Necro 3. The question is whether they will have Vlad's along with it. Is there any math on how much Vlad's increase EHP and DPS? Is the DPS/EHP boost that crucial in fighting/pushing? I personally think that with just the zoo, your pushing and fighting ability is already quite strong. I'm not too sure if Vlad's will up it into a whole new level. Up to now, I have not seen a single convincing argument on why Vlad's is essential to Lycan. I don't see why I should get it before Necro 1. I get that it is an item that helps to push no doubt, but is it superior to getting over other items instead after your Necro 3? Do note that I'm not saying which build is better. It's just a discussion, and I'm opened to being convinced. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I can certainly buy the wisdom of skipping Vlads and would like to see it in action. Almost every other hero tends to get Vlads later on when the % dmg increases and life steal become more noticable so it always seemed odd to me for Lycan to grab it so early. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
I don't think soul ring is necessary. As soon as you have the staff of wizardry for necro, your mana is sufficient in my experience. Before then thread switching can help too, I rarely find the lack of mana a problem. And that's without medaillon. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 24 2014 03:20 Logo wrote: I know at level 7 wolves can tank for you, but how does going for (and using) SR change how you lane/jungle? Are you advocating this build specifically for a laning Lycan or does it work in jungle as well? I can certainly buy the wisdom of skipping Vlads and would like to see it in action. Almost every other hero tends to get Vlads later on when the % dmg increases and life steal become more noticable so it always seemed odd to me for Lycan to grab it so early. It's a pure jungle build. I suppose SR was to dispute the notion that you need Vlad's for mana regen purpose. There's a very legitimate alternative in SR, and it's definitely much better in the early jungling portion for your wolves usage. Even if it is for laning, wouldn't it be better to rush a Necro rather than delay it by Vlad's. And after your Necro, is Vlad's really that important that you should get it over other items? The main thought provoking point is why are you getting your Vlad's. It makes perfect sense to get BF on AM, because no other item can replicate its effect. But for Vlad's? If you want additional EHP/DPS, Vlad's isn't the only option. Like you said, why do all Lycan grab Vlad's so early? On April 24 2014 03:29 Laurens wrote: You've kind of answered your own question in your post lol. You already listed everything that's good about vlads (lifesteal, better necro creeps and wolves, better push, quicker rosh). I don't think soul ring is necessary. As soon as you have the staff of wizardry for necro, your mana is sufficient in my experience. Before then thread switching can help too, I rarely find the lack of mana a problem. And that's without medaillon. What makes getting Vlad's first better than getting Necro first. And after that, what makes Vlad's that much better over the bigger extensions. The point I'm disputing is whether Vlad's is NECESSARY at all. A lot of people get Vlad's because everyone does it. It feels standard. But do you really need it? | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
1. how late do you go rosh? 2. How late do you have necro 3? 3. What items do you transition in and in what order? Without vlads i'd say bkb is important right? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Similarly, do you actually push much better with Vlad's than a Necro 1? Do you push better with Vlad's + Necro 1 than Necro 3? I think from math that it isn't the case, as you have more EHP/DPS with the latter for both cases. The Vlad's completes at a time suitable for the safe lane push to break the T1. From there, you can extend your pushing tempo easily into the other lanes. SR + Necro 1 is 1500 gold more than Vlad's (making it somewhat disingenuous to compare their pushing power timing-wise), and is far later when we're talking about early laning--possibly late enough for the enemy team to have taken the initiative in breaking your towers first. I could see it being better for an extended laning phase, or if you have another strong tower-pushing jungler that makes the T1 going down early a given anyway (e.g. Enchantress), but Lycan wants T1s to start dropping by the time he's Rosh capable because those T1s being gone drastically increases his Rosh threat. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
Lycan has 3 skills that buff his minions, and a 4th skill that gives him minions. It's easy to see why necro is a great item on him -> more buffed minions. It's equally easy to see (in my opinion) why vlads is a great item on him -> minions get buffed even more. Also, the vlad first build, with an average jungle, allows me to get vlads by 6:xx, rosh killed by 8:30, and necro 1 shortly afterwards. Usually Rosh boosts me from lvl 7 to lvl 9, gives me enough money to buy 2 of the 3 components for treads, and I can almost always take a T1 since I am one of the highest levels in the game and I have aegis + ult. It's the start of a powerful snowballing Lycan. Going Soul ring -> necro 1 costs 1500 more, so it won't be done at 6:xx for sure. You also jungle slower without lifesteal and the dmg buffs from vlads. You'll take rosh a lot later and it'll be a bit trickier (no lifesteal, and necro 1 units aren't that great yet) and your snowballing will be less noticeable. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the vlads first Lycan can get necro 3 at roughly the same time as your SR -> necro build because of Rosh and tower money. This is all theorycrafting of course. I cba to make a lobby and check the necro 1/rosh timings. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 24 2014 03:58 TheYango wrote: The Vlad's completes at a time suitable for the safe lane push to break the T1. From there, you can extend your pushing tempo easily into the other lanes. SR + Necro 1 is 1500 gold more than Vlad's (making it somewhat disingenuous to compare their pushing power timing-wise), and is far later when we're talking about early laning--possibly late enough for the enemy team to have taken the initiative in breaking your towers first. I could see it being better for an extended laning phase, or if you have another strong tower-pushing jungler that makes the T1 going down early a given anyway (e.g. Enchantress), but Lycan wants T1s to start dropping by the time he's Rosh capable because those T1s being gone drastically increases his Rosh threat. Your reasoning sounds valid. Although as you said, this benefit is dependent on it being a necessity for you to push the T1 in the first place. Another point to moot about is that given a free farm scenario (as with most competitive Lycan), is Vlad's first better than Necro 1? You don't need SR yet because you barely use Wolves, so it's just 700 gold more. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 24 2014 04:20 Kupon3ss wrote: Whether or not Vlads is neccessary every game is a completely different debate now that wolves have 15 hp regen. Its still very much core, but probably not necessary, esp for radiant lycan. Everyone gets it as though it is necessary though. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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