EPT[Hero] Lycan - Page 22
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
edit: Unless you're talking something like 4-0/1-1/2/3 into 4-4-1/2/3, I don't get you or how you see howl being better than the consistency of Feral during that buff's downtime if you're farming jungle and are tight on mana. Hey DucK what's the item progression for the Soul Ring build from starting items anyway? | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 24 2014 18:56 Surprise.820 wrote: Not convinced, I'd rather take more points in feral if I was jungling unless I used something like Bottle or Soul Ring. Hey DucK what's the item progression the Soul Ring build from starting items anyway? Something like Quelling Stout Tango -> SR -> Necro You probably need to suicide as per normal. You also probably need to buy 1 more set of Tango to last you. Once your Wolves are rank 3 or 4, HP/jungling should not be a problem, After Necro 3, he really likes BoT into Manta. But then again, what you get after Necro 3 is up to you. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
On April 24 2014 18:56 Surprise.820 wrote: Hey DucK what's the item progression for the Soul Ring build from starting items anyway? SR -> Necro 3 -> Travels -> Manta -> Refresher For an entertaining read, here is the thread: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1415643 | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
I've got some thoughts on what I did: Wow, that was smooth as hell and how early I got Necrobook surprised me. Soul Ring is extremely easy to pull off and I had mana for everything. The quick necrobook owns and delivers a lot when activated for such an early period, is the main method to just push ASAP with this build? Also, is the Necrobook necessary? It seems you could even rush a combat (why? idk) Lycan very quickly, but it's hard to argue against quick pushing shit. Not to mention Necro1 allows Lycan to be strong for fighting at that stage esp. versus very low mobility heroes. This is just a 1 game sample but I found it hard to beat Roshan solo with a Necro1 and no Vlads, wolves died awfully quickly even with micro and re-agro and the lifesteal aura normally helped quicker recoveries. But Necro1, lvl 2/3 (I forgot) Howl and Lvl 4 Wolves took off around 40% of his health before I couldn't prevent my units from dying. Of course, that was Solo Roshan, in a real game it is likely I will not be doing Roshan solo with Lycan anyway because you know, enemies won't let me. If I had my team helping me I wouldn't see any problem at all with taking Roshan down quickly. This is where I deviated because Manta still sounds weird on him. I tried for a Helm of the Dominator because why not? Got a Troll, managed to get myself a sick net disable on a bot (rofl) and push with skeletons, wolves and Necro3. Seems really funny to go for this item quickly over the AC and Basher/Abyssal, but meh, I needed some sort of E-HP quickly. Overall I like it a lot, I think it's great that there's some alternative to Vlads but I'm not going to drop Vlads if there's a melee/stat heavy core on my team or if I want to 'cheese' an early Roshan, but I do see this build as stronger for earlier pushing out of the jungle which is what people truly want anyway. edit: Also the Manta Style build frustrates and confuses me further, isn't this basically the same as doing RTZ bottle and/or getting illusion runes? It just annoys me as I previous stated a week ago that you're probs better off getting even more stuff like the aura granting Assault Cuirass and just getting illusions from elsewhere if you're so bothered about this long distance pushing method. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 24 2014 19:57 Surprise.820 wrote: Just finished a bot game testing it blind except for DucK's comment, thanks for the link tho! I've got some thoughts on what I did: Wow, that was smooth as hell and how early I got Necrobook surprised me. Soul Ring is extremely easy to pull off and I had mana for everything. The quick necrobook owns and delivers a lot when activated for such an early period, is the main method to just push ASAP with this build? Also, is the Necrobook necessary? It seems you could even rush a combat (why? idk) Lycan very quickly, but it's hard to argue against quick pushing shit. Not to mention Necro1 allows Lycan to be strong for fighting at that stage esp. versus very low mobility heroes. This is just a 1 game sample but I found it hard to beat Roshan solo with a Necro1 and no Vlads, wolves died awfully quickly even with micro and re-agro and the lifesteal aura normally helped quicker recoveries. But Necro1, lvl 2/3 (I forgot) Howl and Lvl 4 Wolves took off around 40% of his health before I couldn't prevent my units from dying. Of course, that was Solo Roshan, in a real game it is likely I will not be doing Roshan solo with Lycan anyway because you know, enemies won't let me. If I had my team helping me I wouldn't see any problem at all with taking Roshan down quickly. This is where I deviated because Manta still sounds weird on him. I tried for a Helm of the Dominator because why not? Got a Troll, managed to get myself a sick net disable on a bot (rofl) and push with skeletons, wolves and Necro3. Seems really funny to go for this item quickly over the AC and Basher/Abyssal, but meh, I needed some sort of E-HP quickly. Overall I like it a lot, I think it's great that there's some alternative to Vlads but I'm not going to drop Vlads if there's a melee/stat heavy core on my team or if I want to 'cheese' an early Roshan, but I do see this build as stronger for earlier pushing out of the jungle which is what people truly want anyway. edit: Also the Manta Style build frustrates and confuses me further, isn't this basically the same as doing RTZ bottle and/or getting illusion runes? It just annoys me as I previous stated a week ago that you're probs better off getting even more stuff like the aura granting Assault Cuirass and just getting illusions from elsewhere if you're so bothered about this long distance pushing method. He had a whole debate on why he prefers manta over ac. Personally I don't care and get what I think is needed. Only thing I care is my necro3 | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
On April 25 2014 00:51 TheYango wrote: Manta vs. AC is situational, and I can definitely see the comparison favoring Manta if you're not choosing to get BKB first. AC only really comes out way ahead if you're going BKB+AC and are interested in actual fights to break high ground. If you're just purely trying to rat the game out, Manta is not bad to have. How about illusion rune or shadow demon's disruption? Sure the former isn't on the fly, but the latter practically is. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On April 25 2014 01:11 Surprise.820 wrote: How about illusion rune or shadow demon's disruption? Sure the former isn't on the fly, but the latter practically is. SD is not in every lycan game babysitting him in opponents jungle, you know. Also, manta does give you certain benefits, even though they are minor. | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
SD is not [...] babysitting him in opponents jungle, you know. Nothing is stopping a Lycan and SD's team from just launching wolves and necro book with illusion from lycan to keep the aura on for like 8 seconds and stand at a safe distance for 8 seconds and try it again as long as wolves are up. Not as good as Luna like, but still viable surely. You do enough damage to buildings with necro 3 and wolves without keeping your auras on at tier 3 anyway lol. I'd honestly get manta if I can feel it's worth it for dispelling, but I really wouldn't consider manta-style push over AC or Abyssal and I seriously would only do it in pure niche rat games. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
SD works when you're trying to 5 man siege towers, yes. But if that's the case, you'd rather have BKB regardless because a 5v5 siege is likely to break out into a 5v5 teamfight. | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 25 2014 01:38 Surprise.820 wrote: I understand that it enhances the burst of pushing power when you're there or not, but it's just I argue that Lycan is already self-sufficient without it in a lot of situations. He already does a lot of damage to the Tier 3 with just summons and can run elsewhere with lvl 16 ult when you've overstayed your welcome to buy time for a team, Manta-Style just seems like an extra to what he was already good at if the enemy team was occupied or not, maybe it's time to get some combat centric items or something to shut down TPing people. He has quite a rigid view of Lycan. He firmly believes in a split pushing Lycan, and hence doesn't invest in fighting items. His main rationale is that Lycan is crazily strong in split pushing. You can't just send anybody to deal with a Lycan at your T3. You need to invest quite a lot to deal with the threat. There's hardly a need to go fight with Lycan. If the enemy goes 5v4, they lose a rax. If they fight 4v4, they still can't stop you. Will they fight 3v4 then? For AC vs Manta, I will quote him here: + Show Spoiler + So theres plenty of credit to be given to BKB here, its a reasonable item, but usually not ideal. If you're manfighting in a 5 man deathball its a must-have, but if you're playing lycan to his fullest and most obnoxious potential by split pushing in every fight, you're better off with the manta. And thats the better comparison you bring up, manta against AC. Those items fill largely the same niche, being methods to boost your dps to a tower. The AC gives more direct dps than a manta, maybe not as much EHP, not that its relevant at that point, but AC is only the smallest bit more statistical bonus of DPS compared to manta, while manta has GIGANTIC, I stress, gigantic amounts of utility to give you from its illusions- whether it is using manta to fool an enemy while split pushing (send a manta up one lane while you teleport to another) or make it hard for an enemy to right click you or cast single target spells on you, or purge debuffs, or so on. More important than anything else is simply the concept of having disposable secondary units that are separate from your hero. A manta allows you to throw a sizeable army at a tower that even if your hero can't commit to a fight or has to back down, those manta illusions will help tear through it- and those manta illusions grant feral impulse to units when your hero isn't around. Heck, I die in pushes and still take down objectives just as easily with 2 wolves, 2 illusions and 2 necrocreeps. Personally I don't like his style. I can see his logic, but I rather be able to manfight. I think for split pushing, just the standard items are sufficient enough to do the job. The Manta/RFO may be a little overkill. As such, I rather have AC + Basher over Manta Refresher. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On April 25 2014 02:47 TheYango wrote: I feel like that style doesn't utilize the fact that Lycan actually does have insane damage potential and man-fighting ability even in an up-front teamfight. While his fighting power is somewhat reliant on his BKB duration, going high ground 5-man with with a 10s BKB timing is definitely legit and I heavily disagree with him calling it "usually not ideal". In many cases it's the most straightforward way for you to break a lane, especially with pubs. It's not that he skips it though. In the earlier part of the post, he said he probably would get it as a 4th/5th item. I suppose that's what he meant by 'not ideal', in that he feels that there's no need to get it earlier. | ||
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NeoRussia
Canada381 Posts
On April 25 2014 01:07 TheYango wrote: Refresher Manta requires 2 Mantas to get 4 illusions this doesn't work the same way it does for some other items. A hero can only have 2 manta illusions no matter how many mantas or refreshing mechanics you have. Manta is good if there's no way you can make a direct attack at the throne but have to continuously send waves of your summons at them while they are turtleing, AC is good if you threaten a base race if they try to throne you. Either way you get both eventually. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 03:19 NeoRussia wrote: this doesn't work the same way it does for some other items. A hero can only have 2 manta illusions no matter how many mantas or refreshing mechanics you have. It's supposed to work, I forgot they hadn't fixed it in DotA 2 yet. If you have 2 sets of Mantas even though they share CD, a CD refresh via item or skill is supposed to allow you to get an additional set of illusions. On April 25 2014 02:52 DucK- wrote: It's not that he skips it though. In the earlier part of the post, he said he probably would get it as a 4th/5th item. I suppose that's what he meant by 'not ideal', in that he feels that there's no need to get it earlier. That depends a lot on your teamcomp and the game. I wouldn't say it's uncommon to get pub Lycan games where you're ready to break base by 2nd major item. | ||
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Noya
Uruguay11223 Posts
On April 25 2014 01:07 TheYango wrote: Refresher Manta requires 2 Mantas to get 4 illusions That trick doesn't work on Dota 2 IIRC, and wont ever be fixed  Just get a Deso | ||
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