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On April 24 2014 21:39 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 19:57 Surprise.820 wrote: Just finished a bot game testing it blind except for DucK's comment, thanks for the link tho!
I've got some thoughts on what I did: Wow, that was smooth as hell and how early I got Necrobook surprised me. Soul Ring is extremely easy to pull off and I had mana for everything. The quick necrobook owns and delivers a lot when activated for such an early period, is the main method to just push ASAP with this build? Also, is the Necrobook necessary? It seems you could even rush a combat (why? idk) Lycan very quickly, but it's hard to argue against quick pushing shit. Not to mention Necro1 allows Lycan to be strong for fighting at that stage esp. versus very low mobility heroes.
This is just a 1 game sample but I found it hard to beat Roshan solo with a Necro1 and no Vlads, wolves died awfully quickly even with micro and re-agro and the lifesteal aura normally helped quicker recoveries. But Necro1, lvl 2/3 (I forgot) Howl and Lvl 4 Wolves took off around 40% of his health before I couldn't prevent my units from dying. Of course, that was Solo Roshan, in a real game it is likely I will not be doing Roshan solo with Lycan anyway because you know, enemies won't let me. If I had my team helping me I wouldn't see any problem at all with taking Roshan down quickly.
This is where I deviated because Manta still sounds weird on him. I tried for a Helm of the Dominator because why not? Got a Troll, managed to get myself a sick net disable on a bot (rofl) and push with skeletons, wolves and Necro3. Seems really funny to go for this item quickly over the AC and Basher/Abyssal, but meh, I needed some sort of E-HP quickly.
Overall I like it a lot, I think it's great that there's some alternative to Vlads but I'm not going to drop Vlads if there's a melee/stat heavy core on my team or if I want to 'cheese' an early Roshan, but I do see this build as stronger for earlier pushing out of the jungle which is what people truly want anyway.
edit: Also the Manta Style build frustrates and confuses me further, isn't this basically the same as doing RTZ bottle and/or getting illusion runes? It just annoys me as I previous stated a week ago that you're probs better off getting even more stuff like the aura granting Assault Cuirass and just getting illusions from elsewhere if you're so bothered about this long distance pushing method. He had a whole debate on why he prefers manta over ac. Personally I don't care and get what I think is needed. Only thing I care is my necro3
Soul ring seems a bit redundant if your rushing for necro books since you will get a+10 intel quite early and lycan doesn't have intense mana problems.
An advice for everyone, dont be tunnel visioned considering item choices, if your rushing an item that gives mana dont buy a soul ring. if your going for all damage getting early bracer for an hp buffer to help you live, your rushing linkens, probably dont have to worry for mana since the item will substain you later etc...
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Hi, is it ok to clear medium/small camps before going for big camps in pubs?
I followed the OP's new guide but the centaurs are really fucked up shit.. I can't evade the stomp and If I tried to, the centaur would simply normal attack and kill a wolf. It's so annoying.
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United States42636 Posts
On April 25 2014 12:09 Discarder wrote: Hi, is it ok to clear medium/small camps before going for big camps in pubs?
I followed the OP's new guide but the centaurs are really fucked up shit.. I can't evade the stomp and If I tried to, the centaur would simply normal attack and kill a wolf. It's so annoying. 2x small will give you level 2, centaurs are pretty hard until level 3, you can do them if you go in with a full mana pool and know how to dodge the stomp but they're still not easy. If it's not warded and your support doesn't mind then opening 2x small isn't the worst thing ever (as long as you can clear it in time to not block the respawn) but opening with mediums (satyrs and wolves both give enough exp for a level 2 I think) is better than smalls. Wildwings suck balls, they give less than most mediums.
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On April 25 2014 12:09 Discarder wrote: Hi, is it ok to clear medium/small camps before going for big camps in pubs?
I followed the OP's new guide but the centaurs are really fucked up shit.. I can't evade the stomp and If I tried to, the centaur would simply normal attack and kill a wolf. It's so annoying.
As i play more and more lycan games ( currently 83% win rate / 40+ games) and making some calculations, it shows that starting with big camp is sub optimal. Here is why ; There are 5 types of spawns at big camp and 2 of them doesnt give you level 2, -centaurs and wildwing- which are also likely to consume all of your regeneration. So 40% chance you screw up if you go straight to big camp. I know if you kill satyrs or trolls it is a nice start but probabilitywise going directly to big camp will make your jungle lycan more dependent on jungle luck. What about medium camp ? This is also the same. 3 out of 5 spawns doesnt give you level 2. And you wont be able to clear the spawn before 01:00. If you go directly to small camp tho, regardless of the 6 possible spawns, at 01:10 you are level 2 guarenteed + with more gold if you would have killed trolls or satyrs at big camp. Support couldnt pull the neutrals at 00:53, so what? It will not have any kind of impact whatsoever to the game since you are the most important piece of the team even if your safelane carry has zero farm, it is likely that you will carry the game starting from 15:00 min mark when your n3 is completed.
If this does not make sense to you, i recommend you to look up the gold/exp that neutral camps give, and divide those by effective HPs of the neutrals. The highest value average, tho the most efficient is small camp. Or to put it differently, with unlimited spawn a lycan farming small camp will be richer and higher level than lycan farming big or medium camp continously.
@Kwark
Your lycan guide is really great, but i suggest that it can be better. At least it can be better for below 4,5k MMR matchs, by starting with 2x easy camps.It is mathematically superior compared to any other start. I never ever suicide without having mask of death regardless of the spawn luck of the jungle. To me, buying RoB and RoR before suicide is unacceptable and that means you are doing something wrong. The only downside is, you need to scout with wolves to block any attempt to ward the camp and below 4,5k there are hardly any attempt at all.
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On April 25 2014 09:32 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 21:39 DucK- wrote:On April 24 2014 19:57 Surprise.820 wrote: Just finished a bot game testing it blind except for DucK's comment, thanks for the link tho!
I've got some thoughts on what I did: Wow, that was smooth as hell and how early I got Necrobook surprised me. Soul Ring is extremely easy to pull off and I had mana for everything. The quick necrobook owns and delivers a lot when activated for such an early period, is the main method to just push ASAP with this build? Also, is the Necrobook necessary? It seems you could even rush a combat (why? idk) Lycan very quickly, but it's hard to argue against quick pushing shit. Not to mention Necro1 allows Lycan to be strong for fighting at that stage esp. versus very low mobility heroes.
This is just a 1 game sample but I found it hard to beat Roshan solo with a Necro1 and no Vlads, wolves died awfully quickly even with micro and re-agro and the lifesteal aura normally helped quicker recoveries. But Necro1, lvl 2/3 (I forgot) Howl and Lvl 4 Wolves took off around 40% of his health before I couldn't prevent my units from dying. Of course, that was Solo Roshan, in a real game it is likely I will not be doing Roshan solo with Lycan anyway because you know, enemies won't let me. If I had my team helping me I wouldn't see any problem at all with taking Roshan down quickly.
This is where I deviated because Manta still sounds weird on him. I tried for a Helm of the Dominator because why not? Got a Troll, managed to get myself a sick net disable on a bot (rofl) and push with skeletons, wolves and Necro3. Seems really funny to go for this item quickly over the AC and Basher/Abyssal, but meh, I needed some sort of E-HP quickly.
Overall I like it a lot, I think it's great that there's some alternative to Vlads but I'm not going to drop Vlads if there's a melee/stat heavy core on my team or if I want to 'cheese' an early Roshan, but I do see this build as stronger for earlier pushing out of the jungle which is what people truly want anyway.
edit: Also the Manta Style build frustrates and confuses me further, isn't this basically the same as doing RTZ bottle and/or getting illusion runes? It just annoys me as I previous stated a week ago that you're probs better off getting even more stuff like the aura granting Assault Cuirass and just getting illusions from elsewhere if you're so bothered about this long distance pushing method. He had a whole debate on why he prefers manta over ac. Personally I don't care and get what I think is needed. Only thing I care is my necro3 Soul ring seems a bit redundant if your rushing for necro books since you will get a+10 intel quite early and lycan doesn't have intense mana problems. An advice for everyone, dont be tunnel visioned considering item choices, if your rushing an item that gives mana dont buy a soul ring. if your going for all damage getting early bracer for an hp buffer to help you live, your rushing linkens, probably dont have to worry for mana since the item will substain you later etc...
The whole rationale is to have 100% wolves usage. Mana pool doesn't give you that. Its especially important when you are jungling, since wolves are your bread and butter.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2014 15:59 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 09:32 Darkren wrote:On April 24 2014 21:39 DucK- wrote:On April 24 2014 19:57 Surprise.820 wrote: Just finished a bot game testing it blind except for DucK's comment, thanks for the link tho!
I've got some thoughts on what I did: Wow, that was smooth as hell and how early I got Necrobook surprised me. Soul Ring is extremely easy to pull off and I had mana for everything. The quick necrobook owns and delivers a lot when activated for such an early period, is the main method to just push ASAP with this build? Also, is the Necrobook necessary? It seems you could even rush a combat (why? idk) Lycan very quickly, but it's hard to argue against quick pushing shit. Not to mention Necro1 allows Lycan to be strong for fighting at that stage esp. versus very low mobility heroes.
This is just a 1 game sample but I found it hard to beat Roshan solo with a Necro1 and no Vlads, wolves died awfully quickly even with micro and re-agro and the lifesteal aura normally helped quicker recoveries. But Necro1, lvl 2/3 (I forgot) Howl and Lvl 4 Wolves took off around 40% of his health before I couldn't prevent my units from dying. Of course, that was Solo Roshan, in a real game it is likely I will not be doing Roshan solo with Lycan anyway because you know, enemies won't let me. If I had my team helping me I wouldn't see any problem at all with taking Roshan down quickly.
This is where I deviated because Manta still sounds weird on him. I tried for a Helm of the Dominator because why not? Got a Troll, managed to get myself a sick net disable on a bot (rofl) and push with skeletons, wolves and Necro3. Seems really funny to go for this item quickly over the AC and Basher/Abyssal, but meh, I needed some sort of E-HP quickly.
Overall I like it a lot, I think it's great that there's some alternative to Vlads but I'm not going to drop Vlads if there's a melee/stat heavy core on my team or if I want to 'cheese' an early Roshan, but I do see this build as stronger for earlier pushing out of the jungle which is what people truly want anyway.
edit: Also the Manta Style build frustrates and confuses me further, isn't this basically the same as doing RTZ bottle and/or getting illusion runes? It just annoys me as I previous stated a week ago that you're probs better off getting even more stuff like the aura granting Assault Cuirass and just getting illusions from elsewhere if you're so bothered about this long distance pushing method. He had a whole debate on why he prefers manta over ac. Personally I don't care and get what I think is needed. Only thing I care is my necro3 Soul ring seems a bit redundant if your rushing for necro books since you will get a+10 intel quite early and lycan doesn't have intense mana problems. An advice for everyone, dont be tunnel visioned considering item choices, if your rushing an item that gives mana dont buy a soul ring. if your going for all damage getting early bracer for an hp buffer to help you live, your rushing linkens, probably dont have to worry for mana since the item will substain you later etc...
The whole rationale is to have 100% wolves usage. Mana pool doesn't give you that. Its especially important when you are jungling, since wolves are your bread and butter.
I read the whole soul ring build tread what i dont understand is why do you even go jungle in first place if you dont kill roshan and find it dangerous to solo ? The ONLY reason lycan goes jungle is to get level 7 fast enough to kill solo roshan. If you skip roshan and try to rush n3, go to safelane and farm n3 even faster because you are not level dependent anymore.
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Stop farming the easy camps over hard or medium, medium and hard that give you 1 quick level are better, faster to rotate and easier than 2x easy, I'd rather risk RNG of 3/4 camps vs blocked easy camp and all. Again, see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21235123
Honestly, the math part makes me laugh becuz I swear I can do lvl 7 and Vlads if I suicide once or twice before you can do your usual on average. Mainly becuz the route and how no camp is too hard at lvl 3. Also because I've got a phobia over Ghost Camp, the hardest camp in the game.
On April 25 2014 16:31 MushkulPesent wrote: I read the whole soul ring build tread what i dont understand is why do you even go jungle in first place if you dont kill roshan and find it dangerous to solo ? The ONLY reason lycan goes jungle is to get level 7 fast enough to kill solo roshan. If you skip roshan and try to rush n3, go to safelane and farm n3 even faster because you are not level dependent anymore.
- Pub games. - Jungle is an extra slot that can be taken. Then again, Lycan gets bullied in jungle lol - What if safe lane is taken? - GL getting away with soloing Roshan without your team when you get higher. Game is hard. This build still does a lot of damage to Rosh and with your team it will go down quick. - Necro vs Vlads, Necro1 seems to be a lot better for pushing in my 2 (!!!) game experience with the SR build. Nothing wrong with coming out of the jungle with Necro1 and being like hey guys gonna take ur mid/offlane tower
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On April 25 2014 18:16 Surprise.820 wrote:Stop farming the easy camps over hard or medium, medium and hard that give you 1 quick level are better, faster to rotate and easier than 2x easy, I'd rather risk RNG of 3/4 camps vs blocked easy camp and all. Again, see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21235123Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 16:31 MushkulPesent wrote: I read the whole soul ring build tread what i dont understand is why do you even go jungle in first place if you dont kill roshan and find it dangerous to solo ? The ONLY reason lycan goes jungle is to get level 7 fast enough to kill solo roshan. If you skip roshan and try to rush n3, go to safelane and farm n3 even faster because you are not level dependent anymore. - Pub games. - Jungle is an extra slot that can be taken. Then again, Lycan gets bullied in jungle lol - What if safe lane is taken? - GL getting away with soloing Roshan without your team when you get higher. Game is hard. This build still does a lot of damage to Rosh and with your team it will go down quick. - Necro vs Vlads, Necro1 seems to be a lot better for pushing in my 2 (!!!) game experience with the SR build. Nothing wrong with coming out of the jungle with Necro1 and being like hey guys gonna take ur mid/offlane tower
Nothing is easier than 2x easy camp. Besides it is not about the difficulty at all, 2x easy = more exp more gold than any other thing you can do at jungle in that certain amount of time. Why would i skip this while i can ? Every lycan jungler here probably concerns at the beginning of the game if he/she can make it to 900 gold before suicide, while i am not. Im 100% sure that i will get mask of death even if the jungle is filled with centaurs and ursa camps, even in the worst possible jungle. My point is, there is no need to take a risk when there is a more viable option.
If the maths make you laugh, do it and see yourself. Most efficient camp overall is small camp. (Exp and gold / EHP wise) You suicide twice?? and you think you can beat my average? Lol clearly you are doing something wrong. There is no need to suicide twice and there is no need to get anything less than mask of death before the suicide.
About the soul ring build, What if safe lane is taken ? Really? What if jungle is taken ? Atacking an idea just to disprove it randomly does not make any sense. I have a simple question, why lycan goes to jungle instead of safelane? He is better than most of the carries at lane + he maybe the hardest to zone out because of wolves. So why ? The answer is if you lane , you can not be level 7 in time to kill roshan. This is the only reason. So if the guy who started that discussion says that lycan shouldnt do roshan at all because it is too risky, instead of convincing people soulring is better than vlads, he should first question about going to jungle at first place. In his point of view, a necro rush is faster in safe lane anyway. If you skip vlads but still do roshan than it is ok maybe its better. But if its not the case i still go with the Mlcrosoft1's build. ( Actually i dont prefer treads, travel is way better that might be the only small difference in that build)
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If you can't go safelane or jungle, then don't pick Lycan unless your team let you go mid or ez offlane 1v1.
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Why would i even want to go mid or offlane?
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Because Lycan can do 1v1 against the right heroes, he has no real lane presence other than last hitting and pushing but he does those last hits really well.
For example, EG run solo Lycan a lot often with the intention to put him in the solo lanes, if they get countered they just put him safelane or jungle, where RTZ just bottlecrows lol. Versatile picks are often favored in this meta.
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Yes they do but competitive gaming is completely another story. This is about jungle lycan in public ranked MM.
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Eh it isn't un-heard of in pubs, and I'd still do mid or offlane 1v1 over jungle if I had the chance. It's probs easier to pull off than jungle. lol I repeat that it's another good thing about Lycan, you can put him in a lot of places depending on enemy team.
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Mushkul,
Satyr/troll hard camp dies around 1:03 (sadly it is impossible to finish it off before the new one spawns), I'll be halfway through my med camp while you are still killing off the second easy camp, you are ignoring that in your maths.
You also mention "the support can't pull at 0:53 so what". Since you kill the camp a second time, the support also cannot pull at 1:11, 1:41, or 1:53. You are hurting the xp of your carry, and both the xp/gold of your support, by doing easy camp twice.
Also "Every lycan jungler here probably concerns at the beginning of the game if he/she can make it to 900 gold before suicide". I don't think so, I think every lycan jungler goes basi and RoR before getting the mask, since the wolves get so much better with the basi. It is perfectly timed with the suicide too, you finish the gold for RoR + basi just when your 3rd set of wolves die and you're out of mana, so you suicide and then come back for the remaining 1200. No second suicide is required.
How do you even manage to farm up 900 gold with just 3 sets of wolves and easy camp first? Your first set (the one you summon in spawn) will time out during the 2nd easy camp, so then you have just 2 sets of wolves left to farm the remainder of the gold, this seems to depend on jungle luck quite a lot more than you are making it sound. Or do you start with clarities?
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The only reason you jungle lycan is because you picked lycan, and there are no lanes for you to go. Simple as that. Roshan is not at all a factor of whether you jungle or not. Heck if I had a choice of safe lane and jungle, I would always prefer the safelane. Its a no brainer.
Now in this regard, I'm really struggling to understand the point your are driving mushkul. Could you clarify.
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if you do 2x easy camp in a game where im supporting, ill follow you in the jungle till i get my xp lol
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On April 25 2014 22:26 Laurens wrote: Mushkul,
Satyr/troll hard camp dies around 1:03 (sadly it is impossible to finish it off before the new one spawns), I'll be halfway through my med camp while you are still killing off the second easy camp, you are ignoring that in your maths.
You also mention "the support can't pull at 0:53 so what". Since you kill the camp a second time, the support also cannot pull at 1:11, 1:41, or 1:53. You are hurting the xp of your carry, and both the xp/gold of your support, by doing easy camp twice.
Also "Every lycan jungler here probably concerns at the beginning of the game if he/she can make it to 900 gold before suicide". I don't think so, I think every lycan jungler goes basi and RoR before getting the mask, since the wolves get so much better with the basi. It is perfectly timed with the suicide too, you finish the gold for RoR + basi just when your 3rd set of wolves die and you're out of mana, so you suicide and then come back for the remaining 1200. No second suicide is required.
How do you even manage to farm up 900 gold with just 3 sets of wolves and easy camp first? Your first set (the one you summon in spawn) will time out during the 2nd easy camp, so then you have just 2 sets of wolves left to farm the remainder of the gold, this seems to depend on jungle luck quite a lot more than you are making it sound. Or do you start with clarities?
1)This is exactly my point, how can you be sure the first hard camp you go is satyr/troll ?That probabilty is worse than a coin toss(only 40% chance). Thats why if you start with hard camp you are praying to dota gods not to give you ursas centaurs or wildwings. This is not a risk that i want to take at level 1. But i admit that if you get a big camp troll + satyr at medium, you could be better than 2x easy camp but it is only 3% chance to get those camps consecutively!!!
2)I really doubt that ror + basi is better than mask. Once you get the mask jungle is a piece of cake for lycan and you really get level 7 and other vlad components so fast it is really not a topic to discuss imo. So my point is if you cant get mask before you suicide probably you are doing something wrong or it is an extremly hard jungle with offlane harrassment.
3) Wolves at -00:03> kill first camp > 01:01 spawn second set > kill second camp > kill medium before 2:00, > kill medium again now you are level 3 with 500 gold and you can spawn 1 set of level 2 wolves. This is time to go hard camp now, it is much faster much easier. With those last set of wolves clear 2 camps that you want and your mask is ready.
Regarding the safelane farm, guys come on! with that early pushing power who needs that safelane carry? It is really irrelevant. You could lose all the lanes, your carry could not farm anything at all but with lycan starts pushing those towers, game is still yours. Or to put it another way, do you want the easy camp exp at the begining with 80ish gold or do you want 600-700 gold around 9-10-11 min for each and every member of the team with T1s going down?
Note: currently standing 80.43% win rate with lycan at 46 games with this method.
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On April 25 2014 22:41 DucK- wrote: The only reason you jungle lycan is because you picked lycan, and there are no lanes for you to go. Simple as that. Roshan is not at all a factor of whether you jungle or not. Heck if I had a choice of safe lane and jungle, I would always prefer the safelane. Its a no brainer.
Now in this regard, I'm really struggling to understand the point your are driving mushkul. Could you clarify.
This is really not correct Duck. Let me explain my point and im sure more experienced players like microsoft1 will back me up on this. Suppose that both safelane and jungle is open for you. If you chose to go safelane and say free farm, at min 7 you will be richer than you would have at jungle. But since you sharing the exp with you support you wont be able to get level 7 on time. This is exactly why lycan is going to jungle. To get level 7 before 7-8 min mark. And why do we need level 7? To kill roshan. (Remember it is not the vlad that lycan needs to kill roshan, it is level 7)
So my point is, the guy who invented soulring build is going jungle with SR claims that he is doing better ( which can be true) but than he says he skips roshan,its dangerous, rushes Necro1 and starts pushing towers. And i ask this, why are you even going to jungle in the first place since you are not limited by level 7 anymore? Go for safelane and skip soulring as well, rush necro1 and start pushing even faster.
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You will only share exp with a support if the lane is heavily contested or the support is bad. In a high level game you will generally get solo experience as a safelane farmer. The only reasons to jungle is to let someone else get farm on the safelane or to avoid certain bad lanes, like a Lich.
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I don't know if MushkulPesent is defending low level games or criticising higher level usage of Lycan anymore. I think jungle SR is just an alternative and soloing Rosh isn't a nessercery component of why the hero is put into jungle, it's a laning phase strategy to take the jungle slot and come out with necrobook 1. That is all, really.
On April 25 2014 23:08 zezamer wrote: if you do 2x easy camp in a game where im supporting, ill follow you in the jungle till i get my xp lol
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