Team Secret Discussion - Page 50

On April 28 2015 18:12 PoulsenB wrote:
Cool stuff from Kuro, I think they are all smart enough to work things out and not start flaming and pointing fingers at each other. Looking forward to their next LAN event

On April 28 2015 18:30 Racket wrote:
I don't like the captain / drafter shuffling at all. If Puppey is not working (odd) then Zai also not working (seemed like) and now s4 (we will see), ultimately Kuro.

I mean, it is ok if they feel it is not going good or even don't believe it will get better. The only thing left to do is try things out.
But it does not feel right on my end. I see it like when your gf says "I need space" and you know how it will end...

In the end, I hope they figure it out and fix it.

Edit: Also, I don't think 3 @ DAC is enough, given how other teams are currently doing and how did Secret do.
Why? Because the qualifiers for many tournaments were played in a moment of time that does not show the current state of each team.

If 3 @ DAC is enough then Empire deserves an invite too, because they beat EG, 1 @ DAC. If we take into account the performance over time: Alliance shows improvement while Secret shows the opposite.

On April 29 2015 08:32 Elyvilon wrote:
Alliance was never getting a direct invite and probably getting a qualifier invite either way.

On April 28 2015 18:30 Racket wrote:
I don't like the captain / drafter shuffling at all. If Puppey is not working (odd) then Zai also not working (seemed like) and now s4 (we will see), ultimately Kuro.

I mean, it is ok if they feel it is not going good or even don't believe it will get better. The only thing left to do is try things out.
But it does not feel right on my end. I see it like when your gf says "I need space" and you know how it will end...

In the end, I hope they figure it out and fix it.

Edit: Also, I don't think 3 @ DAC is enough, given how other teams are currently doing and how did Secret do.
Why? Because the qualifiers for many tournaments were played in a moment of time that does not show the current state of each team.

If 3 @ DAC is enough then Empire deserves an invite too, because they beat EG, 1 @ DAC. If we take into account the performance over time: Alliance shows improvement while Secret shows the opposite.

On April 28 2015 10:16 lolnoty wrote:
yeah anyone saying secret shouldn't be invited is actually crazy and hasn't looked at the accomplishments since TI4 list for all potential invites. 2 online first places and numerous high rankings at LANs is better than almost every other EU team since TI4.

On April 29 2015 16:43 goody153 wrote:


lol they beat eg in an MLG way .. also that's 1 b03

there's a VERY HUGE difference on how Secret performed and how Empire performed.

On April 29 2015 17:31 DucK- wrote:


Exactly. If being invited directly means having to win tournaments, then c9 would never ever be in contention. Their results are akin to getting an average A- grade. They are expected to be getting A or A+. That they failed to meet expectations doesn't change the fact that A- is a good grade, plus its probably better than most of the other teams.

On April 29 2015 18:50 PagePincher wrote:
I felt Arteezy forget how to play agressively when he join team Secret. Wonder what happen back in DAC groupstage, what's that a fluke?

On April 29 2015 18:47 Racket wrote:

So what? I don't get it.
When do achievements count? Do they only count when someone says so? And who is that?

Only b05 are worth enough? Again, I don't get it. This iteration of Secret, at DAC, won 15 bo1 and then lost 2 out of 5 bo3. How is that an achievement worth of an invite?

Then, I guess the difference should not be in Secret's and Empire's performances but in EG's performance in both tournaments.

I get the bias, I don't get the weightings people use without explaining them. Secret did a really good group stage with a patch that people were still grasping. Now at the end of its life they lost against teams they were not meant to lose, maybe because of internal issues, or they got figured out, or they are better at bo1 than bo3.

The deal with bo1, bo3 and bo5 is that people can use different strategies to their advantage. Whether we like it or not bo1, bo3 and bo5 won't say how good a team is but instead how well can they take advantages of the format.
In a bo1 you don't have time to fool around and try out things unless you are qualified or nuts. Given that, what may work in a bo1 may not work in a bo3 or bo5.

Slightly off-topic:
People is really funny because when their team loses with a standin then it should not count because they are supposedly weaker, but when other people's team wins with a standin should also not count because they are supposedly... what? weaker?

On April 29 2015 19:20 Velr wrote:
Anyone not seeing EG/C9/Secret/Empire being the direct invites is just delusional or has some other issues...

I mean.. Who else is there? Nip?

On April 29 2015 18:47 Racket wrote:

So what? I don't get it.
When do achievements count? Do they only count when someone says so? And who is that?

Only b05 are worth enough? Again, I don't get it. This iteration of Secret, at DAC, won 15 bo1 and then lost 2 out of 5 bo3. How is that an achievement worth of an invite?

Then, I guess the difference should not be in Secret's and Empire's performances but in EG's performance in both tournaments.

I get the bias, I don't get the weightings people use without explaining them. Secret did a really good group stage with a patch that people were still grasping. Now at the end of its life they lost against teams they were not meant to lose, maybe because of internal issues, or they got figured out, or they are better at bo1 than bo3.

The deal with bo1, bo3 and bo5 is that people can use different strategies to their advantage. Whether we like it or not bo1, bo3 and bo5 won't say how good a team is but instead how well can they take advantages of the format.
In a bo1 you don't have time to fool around and try out things unless you are qualified or nuts. Given that, what may work in a bo1 may not work in a bo3 or bo5.

Slightly off-topic:
People is really funny because when their team loses with a standin then it should not count because they are supposedly weaker, but when other people's team wins with a standin should also not count because they are supposedly... what? weaker?

Edit:

Secret's achievements belong to a different iteration.
NaVi changed two players since TI4 and their performance got worse each day, why Secret changing two players could not end bad too? Because of the confidence people have on Zai+RTZ?

I am not saying it will end badly. I am just saying that people is putting too much personal stuff into analyzing. Frankly speaking, even if RTZ and Zai are beasts, they could or could not fit well in the team, personally, professionally or even psychologically.

On April 29 2015 19:36 goody153 wrote:

You seem to think that having a perfect group stages is easy. How many times in history of dota did it ever occur on a tournament of the scale of TI that a team went perfect group stages outside LGD , alliance and Secret ?

On MLG there was only EG who empire has to beat. Everybody else was inferior to them. There's a difference on the scale of the tournament.

If you don't see the difference between dominating DAC and dominating MLG then you probably will never see the difference between winning TI and winning a tournament like d2cl.

A stand.in is a stand.in .. It's still not complete team .. If you think changing one player means nothing that you forgot that 1 player could mean everything (NTH kicking envy got them the TI3 winning lineup, MLG rtz stand.in won them the MLG colombus, Hao in exchange of Black made them a lot stronger than what they were before). While my examples are presented that the team got stronger it still stands the same that one player could change the team and that means that if you had a stand.in then that doesn't represent the team of the roster.

And so if they won MLG with a stand.in that doesn't really represent the team that is playing.

Secret still are more consistent than you know all teams on EU outside c9 . Yes all of EU cause would it mean anything if you won a tournament that doesn't have c9/eg and/or the top chinese team ? no that would mean you won a tournament with shit teams tournament not the tournament with the best.



Yeah i think so Empire usually owns most of the non top 3 western teams. They also won that tournament with no-t1 teams. (SL12 or was it SL11)

If we wanna be more precise then eg/c9/secret and then lgd/ig/vg/ehome(probably i have not seen most ehome games but they seem super decent).

On April 29 2015 19:49 DucK- wrote:


The new iteration still gets a high grade for their performance in DAC, as well as several online performances in qualifiers. Few bad games doesn't change the fact that they played well in many others.

On April 29 2015 19:59 Faruko wrote:
I HARDLY doubt Secret would have gotten 3rd at DAC with Fly

Like really really hardly, like almost impossible, like no.

But still theory crafting, so it doesnt matter

On April 29 2015 19:20 Velr wrote:
Anyone not seeing EG/C9/Secret/Empire being the direct invites is just delusional or has some other issues...

I mean.. Who else is there? Nip?