If I'm being serious the way I see it the only game this tournament where EE fucks up a lot is that ember game vs EG
the other games he did way more good than bad for sure, and as a lot of people already said before people focused on him because he tend to be the one who made the flashiest mistake and surely that doesn't mean he's the only one who made mistake
about replacement and stuff I probably agree that the only carry that is an improvement over EE are rtz and miracle, but that is only from looking at plays and individual skill alone. God knows what each of them contributed behind the screen, whether it be draft advice, attitude, motivation, etc we'll never be sure as an outsider to the club's inner working. So in the end no for me EE is probably the best carry there is for Secret and hopefully he won't be replaced.
seriously though we should be basking in the tournament win euphoria a little longer instead of bringer this little topic again
On March 07 2016 19:56 goody153 wrote: You think Matumba-man is good ? He is indeed good this major but before this was he really ? Has he been a good carry in his teams before ? Has he been a really good carry at the start of 5Jungz or when they became liquid? I heavily doubt it if you have seen his old games.
He wasn't some obviously impressive core player like rtz or miracle nor was he consistent in the past teams he has been or when 5Jungz first few months. Though he is a better ursa player than envy for sure but better overall rofl I know you love liquid but dude that's going too far but it's not as worse as notail being a great carry by somebody.
He's like black in VG, black was really good back in VG but was he still really good with other teams ? I don't think so. Was loda ever really good playing with the other iteration of alliance? I don't think so.
On March 07 2016 17:49 Geisterkarle wrote: All those EE-bashing ... Could anyone show me some VOD-links to all the stupid stuff EE did in this Major? I saw the creep-void ... and what did he do aside from that? I hope for a long list with all that hate!
watch his ember game that was probably the only game that I thought was a very poor performance envy made a lot of retarded plays that game but I think the whole team started throwing/tilting ppy running into awful situations with full vision over eg as ns, w33 kept getting caught in obvious places, pld in weird positioning during fights so there were times he couldn't get his spells off misery really saved them but honestly that game was 3x harder than it needed to be
other than that one game I think all of them played well. some errors here and there but nothing too glaring. idk why everyone's harping about mana voiding the creep, shit happens
No doubt that ember game by EE was some serious fuck-ups from him, he died like 4 times i think trying to SoF chain jump out but he got stunned all the time. Too many unnecessary risk that game.
The problem is EE is not the only one who made mistakes and it wasn't even a big deal with that AM game since they already lost that time. And how are they supposed to win with earthshaker-dazzle supports with LD+AM core against a push-strat, they already lost from the draft in a get-go yet EE still gets the blame for the game for one misclicked mana void when they already lost two lanes of raxes.
And it's not like EE's the only one who makes mistakes. There was even a puppey winterwyvern game where he had two panic ults and the mentioned dive into all EG as NS with gem and full vision. There was another game where w33ha dived into 4 people mid as ES alone for some reason obviously he died and also those baited panic ults from w33ha as DP as well.
For sure ee made mistakes but holy shit it's as if the other secret members are perfect that they never made horrible mistakes.
Dude you take this way to serious...Do you have an envy shrine in your room or what? People can have diffrent opinions right? And for ME Matumba is better then envy right now. If not better, he has more room to grow at least. Also what does it matter how he did before? You cant even compare it man. Envy played in t1 teams for a long time, Matumba always played in much worse teams. And players can get better you know? Matumba is much better then he was before, so is envy. And why is that? Because they have a great team to back them up, plus a good captain. Players grow, when they are in the right environment.
you can have your opinion but we're allowed to comment on what you say as well. there's no need to resort to petty insults.
envy played in t1 teams by making them t1 teams. he was the driving force in the creation of alliance and c9. the people he formed the team around weren't even close to tier 1 when he started playing with them.
it was only when he joined secret that he was part of a team with people that have a history of good performances, with the exception of w33ha
On March 07 2016 19:56 goody153 wrote: You think Matumba-man is good ? He is indeed good this major but before this was he really ? Has he been a good carry in his teams before ? Has he been a really good carry at the start of 5Jungz or when they became liquid? I heavily doubt it if you have seen his old games.
He wasn't some obviously impressive core player like rtz or miracle nor was he consistent in the past teams he has been or when 5Jungz first few months. Though he is a better ursa player than envy for sure but better overall rofl I know you love liquid but dude that's going too far but it's not as worse as notail being a great carry by somebody.
He's like black in VG, black was really good back in VG but was he still really good with other teams ? I don't think so. Was loda ever really good playing with the other iteration of alliance? I don't think so.
On March 07 2016 19:02 andyrau wrote:
On March 07 2016 17:49 Geisterkarle wrote: All those EE-bashing ... Could anyone show me some VOD-links to all the stupid stuff EE did in this Major? I saw the creep-void ... and what did he do aside from that? I hope for a long list with all that hate!
watch his ember game that was probably the only game that I thought was a very poor performance envy made a lot of retarded plays that game but I think the whole team started throwing/tilting ppy running into awful situations with full vision over eg as ns, w33 kept getting caught in obvious places, pld in weird positioning during fights so there were times he couldn't get his spells off misery really saved them but honestly that game was 3x harder than it needed to be
other than that one game I think all of them played well. some errors here and there but nothing too glaring. idk why everyone's harping about mana voiding the creep, shit happens
No doubt that ember game by EE was some serious fuck-ups from him, he died like 4 times i think trying to SoF chain jump out but he got stunned all the time. Too many unnecessary risk that game.
The problem is EE is not the only one who made mistakes and it wasn't even a big deal with that AM game since they already lost that time. And how are they supposed to win with earthshaker-dazzle supports with LD+AM core against a push-strat, they already lost from the draft in a get-go yet EE still gets the blame for the game for one misclicked mana void when they already lost two lanes of raxes.
And it's not like EE's the only one who makes mistakes. There was even a puppey winterwyvern game where he had two panic ults and the mentioned dive into all EG as NS with gem and full vision. There was another game where w33ha dived into 4 people mid as ES alone for some reason obviously he died and also those baited panic ults from w33ha as DP as well.
For sure ee made mistakes but holy shit it's as if the other secret members are perfect that they never made horrible mistakes.
Dude you take this way to serious...Do you have an envy shrine in your room or what? People can have diffrent opinions right? And for ME Matumba is better then envy right now. If not better, he has more room to grow at least. Also what does it matter how he did before? You cant even compare it man. Envy played in t1 teams for a long time, Matumba always played in much worse teams. And players can get better you know? Matumba is much better then he was before, so is envy. And why is that? Because they have a great team to back them up, plus a good captain. Players grow, when they are in the right environment.
Envy also didn't start in a proven team immediately like c9/kaipi was a long established good team like navi was before ? No, of course not even his first team NTH when he introduced the playstyle of stacking via supports the team wasn't a t1 team but the point is that you see players shine even in bad teams before. After envy got kicked from alliance as a support. He wasn't a good carry at the start obviously cause he's just switched roles but Matumbaman has been playing 1 position in a long time.
Like before navi(well navi is still not good nowadays) sonneiko was the star player in PowerRangers now he's arguably the most individually talented player in navi, Suma1l was already showcasing his skill in some bad NA team before EG. Dj was the star player of Rave and is still doing well in whatever role he gets in Fnatic.
I can agree that players grow in a right environment and there's a possibility that matumbaman becomes better carry than envy in the future but right now No way. My point is that some considering that matumbaman and envy has been playing 1 position for a long time already you should be able to compare them and their stability in their role. Their flexibility and other stuff.
There is also the thing where a player can excel in a correct team like for example with Maybe and Shiki. Shiki is the better fit for CDEC and has great cohesion with the team which is good but it is obvious that Maybe is the better midplayer individually(like he's probably the best chinese midplayer ). Would Shiki still do well with other teams than CDEC ? I don't think so. Would Maybe still be able to shine with another chinese team ? Yeah
I see the same case as envy and matumbaman with maybe and shiki.
But sure we can have a difference of opinion. No problem with that let us end this discussion it's exhausting.
On March 07 2016 20:09 spudde123 wrote: People get triggered because these sorts of generalizations get thrown around based on some individual moments in a game on a regular basis as if that was what was happening all the time.
Exactly
You could make what people call "the best player in the world ever" aka puppey look like absolute dumspter with the same thoughtprocess. You just find clips of him doing terribly which is possible since all players make mistakes.
On March 07 2016 20:23 uthgard wrote:
about replacement and stuff I probably agree that the only carry that is an improvement over EE are rtz and miracle, but that is only from looking at plays and individual skill alone. God knows what each of them contributed behind the screen, whether it be draft advice, attitude, motivation, etc we'll never be sure as an outsider to the club's inner working. So in the end no for me EE is probably the best carry there is for Secret and hopefully he won't be replaced.
Well those things are only known by the teams once the change of player is actually done and given time trying. But i just assumed judging from the individual skill and playstyle-wise that rtz or miracle would be an acceptable replacement for EE in secret and would probably end up making the team better.
But of course we won't know if it's actually better unless it happens. It could also become worse like what happened when Hao replaced Black in VG. And though black and Hao plays differently i think it's safe to say that Hao is better individually.
On March 07 2016 21:23 ch33psh33p wrote: Yeah fuck the haters they're all just fans of losing teams that can't stand to see how dominant 3.0 has been
They flame ee cuz it's easy, too bad their own teams wish they had a carry as efficient and effective as ours
Thinking matumba on ee's tier ROFL
Still not as dominant as 2.0, I guess the hate is towards the players in the team instead from a fan of a losing team, every team is the losing team when they don't win.
On March 07 2016 21:23 ch33psh33p wrote: Yeah fuck the haters they're all just fans of losing teams that can't stand to see how dominant 3.0 has been
They flame ee cuz it's easy, too bad their own teams wish they had a carry as efficient and effective as ours
Thinking matumba on ee's tier ROFL
Still not as dominant as 2.0, I guess the hate is towards the players in the team instead from a fan of a losing team, every team is the losing team when they don't win.
I think 2.0 is stronger individually but 3.0 is definitely more consistent and less toxic i guess.
There are cases when not winning isn't losing that's when a team hasn't placed well in forever then suddenly places well then that's not losing imo.
On March 07 2016 21:05 goody153 wrote: ... Like before navi(well navi is still not good nowadays) sonneiko was the star player in PowerRangers now he's arguably the most individually talented player in navi, Suma1l was already showcasing his skill in some bad NA team before EG. Dj was the star player of Rave and is still doing well in whatever role he gets in Fnatic. ...
Matumba was the star player in his previous teams, certainly in 4asc. He was the sea captain and the other players were the anchors holding him down.
He isn't known for making incredible plays or being an insane support but he shines for being a really good ingame leader and drafter.
His leadership is definitely the #1 reason to team with him, but his play on his signature heroes (Chen/Ench/Enigma) are arguably best in the world, and if that isn't insane support/incredible plays tier to you then I don't know what is
That's literally 3 heroes compared to what zai, FY, MMY, pie(this pieliedie) and aui(with proper space).
His ww , dazzle , es , vs and other non-jungler support doesn't look like he's an "insane support". He's great at jungling heroes no doubt but he's underwhelming when it comes to traditional supports.
Of course that doesn't matter since he can lead the team well and creates a good environment (according to envy he is good at doing the morale thing for the team) but saying he's insane individually is like saying s4 is great with carry mids and bulldog is great with non-farming offlaners. Surely s4 can play lesh/sf/storm/TA and bulldog can play bat,clockwork,DS if needed but do they excel at them ? No.
Obviously he can play those non-jungler support heroes at an acceptable level but he isn't "insane" with them. He delivers but he doesn't excel and he still mistakes.
You want "insane" supports then zai 4 position in the old eg, FY in the old vg or MMY those are the great individual supports. Consistently making plays and great at almost any given heroes.
Puppey is like ppd. Like do you see pdd do something like fear (surprisingly fear does alot of plays even as support) or universe does consistently when it comes to like doing game winning positioning and plays alot. No i don't think so but is he important from the team? Yes absolutely, eg would be just another team without him. He's like swindlemelonz or xiao8. For swindle the case is obvious he's not a superb player. But for xiao8 like for example when he plays as the offlane role he isn't the best chinese offlaner, i bet even rabbit is better than him or iceiceice is blatantly a better offlaner than him but his impact to whatever team he plays with is undeniable.
On March 07 2016 18:05 hunter_x wrote: well i remember the slark game against liquid, it was wb finals i think. he was really tryhard about his shadow blade ganks. He was picked off multiple times. Secret was very far ahead that game, but if it was closer, that could have cost them. His slark play in the grand finals was pretty perfect though. I think overall he played well. but its not like envy is irreplaceable, they could have the same results with other good carry players;)
The replacements that i could see secret improving would be miracle or arteezy. Different playstyle from EE but i can see an improvement from them and it doesn't hurt the team flexibility much since both can also play 1v9 playstyle well.
but "they could have the same results with other good carry players" Yeah just no.
Silent, xboct, black, notail(lol), TC(LOL) would just make it worse. You should really watch their games from their past teams even now and if you remove your "EE hate" goggles and notice their mistakes you'll realize they also fucking throw games alot and they aren't as flexible as you think.
EE hate Googles? Just because i dont think he is top 3 carry or what? I never said that i think ee is bad, or that i hate him. So dont just make stuff up plz. Also why do you come up with those names? When i Talk about good carrys, i think of rtz, miracle, matumbaman. Those are the 3 best in the West for me. The guys you named are average carrys in my opinion.
ROFL you think matumbaman is a better carry than EE
He isn't known for making incredible plays or being an insane support but he shines for being a really good ingame leader and drafter.
His leadership is definitely the #1 reason to team with him, but his play on his signature heroes (Chen/Ench/Enigma) are arguably best in the world, and if that isn't insane support/incredible plays tier to you then I don't know what is
That's literally 3 heroes compared to what zai, FY, MMY, pie(this pieliedie) and aui(with proper space).
His ww , dazzle , es , vs and other non-jungler support doesn't look like he's an "insane support". He's great at jungling heroes no doubt but he's underwhelming when it comes to traditional supports.
Of course that doesn't matter since he can lead the team well and creates a good environment (according to envy he is good at doing the morale thing for the team) but saying he's insane individually is like saying s4 is great with carry mids and bulldog is great with non-farming offlaners. Surely s4 can play lesh/sf/storm/TA and bulldog can play bat,clockwork,DS if needed but do they excel at them ? No.
Obviously he can play those non-jungler support heroes at an acceptable level but he isn't "insane" with them. He delivers but he doesn't excel and he still mistakes.
You want "insane" supports then zai 4 position in the old eg, FY in the old vg or MMY those are the great individual supports. Consistently making plays and great at almost any given heroes.
Puppey is like ppd. Like do you see pdd do something like fear (surprisingly fear does alot of plays even as support) or universe does consistently when it comes to like doing game winning positioning and plays alot. No i don't think so but is he important from the team? Yes absolutely, eg would be just another team without him. He's like swindlemelonz or xiao8. For swindle the case is obvious he's not a superb player. But for xiao8 like for example when he plays as the offlane role he isn't the best chinese offlaner, i bet even rabbit is better than him or iceiceice is blatantly a better offlaner than him but his impact to whatever team he plays with is undeniable.
On March 07 2016 18:05 hunter_x wrote: well i remember the slark game against liquid, it was wb finals i think. he was really tryhard about his shadow blade ganks. He was picked off multiple times. Secret was very far ahead that game, but if it was closer, that could have cost them. His slark play in the grand finals was pretty perfect though. I think overall he played well. but its not like envy is irreplaceable, they could have the same results with other good carry players;)
The replacements that i could see secret improving would be miracle or arteezy. Different playstyle from EE but i can see an improvement from them and it doesn't hurt the team flexibility much since both can also play 1v9 playstyle well.
but "they could have the same results with other good carry players" Yeah just no.
Silent, xboct, black, notail(lol), TC(LOL) would just make it worse. You should really watch their games from their past teams even now and if you remove your "EE hate" goggles and notice their mistakes you'll realize they also fucking throw games alot and they aren't as flexible as you think.
EE hate Googles? Just because i dont think he is top 3 carry or what? I never said that i think ee is bad, or that i hate him. So dont just make stuff up plz. Also why do you come up with those names? When i Talk about good carrys, i think of rtz, miracle, matumbaman. Those are the 3 best in the West for me. The guys you named are average carrys in my opinion.
ROFL you think matumbaman is a better carry than EE
ROFL sry i insulted the great anime carry god ee sama, how foolish of me;)
Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
Why you even try dude..... i mean the closest performance/single desicion i saw the last few months, that lead to a Team victory by a singel player was EEs 2x Rapier game vs EG, and his unconventional Rapier with slark vs Liquid this Major. Let the haters hate
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
To be fair, OG did
lol tbf unlike this major at frankfurt all of their players did perform well
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
Words were chosen to convey particular meanings not to be interpreted freely.
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
Why you even try dude..... i mean the closest performance/single desicion i saw the last few months, that lead to a Team victory by a singel player was EEs 2x Rapier game vs EG, and his unconventional Rapier with slark vs Liquid this Major. Let the haters hate
Yes, EE's double rapier ember play got them their finals in frankfurt. It was also EE's play that made them so dependant on it, he cornered his own team into an inflexible strategy.
And That rapier build on slakr did nothing but risk throwing, the game was won. he could've bought anything at that point and still win, he could've even went abyssal vs bkb heavy team. but no, EE's gonna EE.
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
Words were chosen to convey particular meanings not to be interpreted freely.
On March 08 2016 01:58 latan wrote: Honestly secret carried EE all the way through. Most of the time it felt like they won games 4v5, and a even a few times EE put everything at risk. If they hadn't won it all I'd be bettin on his replacement, but since he showed some restraint in the last couple of series and they indeed won it all I'm sure puppey will give him another chance to grow.
Don't worrry you felt that way because your understanding of dota is poor. Come on do you really think it's possible to win a major playing 4v5?
Why you even try dude..... i mean the closest performance/single desicion i saw the last few months, that lead to a Team victory by a singel player was EEs 2x Rapier game vs EG, and his unconventional Rapier with slark vs Liquid this Major. Let the haters hate
Yes, EE's double rapier ember play got them their finals in frankfurt. It was also EE's play that made them so dependant on it, he cornered his own team into an inflexible strategy.
And That rapier build on slakr did nothing but risk throwing, the game was won. he could've bought anything at that point and still win, he could've even went abyssal vs bkb heavy team. but no, EE's gonna EE.
Wow, the ignorance of this post is just beyond.
It was EE's fault that the team had to go double rapiers, cornering them into that strategy, and they won with it so its also his fault they won? What kind of mental gymnastics is going on here.
EE is one of if not the best carry in the scene today.
EPT
)
