EPTit was a selection box glitch with dp's euls
oic, awkward but game was lost shrug
Team Secret Discussion - Page 137
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
oic, awkward but game was lost shrug | ||
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goody153
44282 Posts
Envy has been one of the best western carries but obviously his playstyle has always been aggressive like he creates space, tries to make plays and even his farming is risky to open up the map for his other teammates. Aggressiveness always has risks obviously. And obviously tit wouldn't be called risks if it doesn't have a chance of failing so that's why you see him die overextending or farming the most unsafest places of the map since no matter how good the player is. There will be times he gets caught out or dies trying to make plays. If you wanted somebody to just farm safely and not make risks then there black or sylar. Those are the guys that aren't aggressive and farms in the safest places and playing safely. Sounds good ? No farming safely doesn't always mean better that just means somebody from the team has to go to unsafe places to farm and somebody else has to try make plays and be risky so that you could farm. In some teams it works, in others it doesn't. Kinda like VG with Black and VG with Hao. | ||
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shad2810
Malaysia2682 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eQuRss0.png) All hail our supreme leader puppy !  | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
He isn't known for making incredible plays or being an insane support but he shines for being a really good ingame leader and drafter. His leadership is definitely the #1 reason to team with him, but his play on his signature heroes (Chen/Ench/Enigma) are arguably best in the world, and if that isn't insane support/incredible plays tier to you then I don't know what is | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
Anyways gz to team Secret, they played really well and deserve the win. The most out-standing performance to me was PLD and the worst EE. I was really happy to see TL in the finals, but it seemed like they crumbled under the load that was reaching grand finals. Let's hope they will be able to keep up the pace and continue to play well. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
Could anyone show me some VOD-links to all the stupid stuff EE did in this Major? I saw the creep-void ... and what did he do aside from that? I hope for a long list with all that hate! | ||
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t3rm1nal
Italy37 Posts
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
On March 07 2016 17:49 Geisterkarle wrote: All those EE-bashing ... Could anyone show me some VOD-links to all the stupid stuff EE did in this Major? I saw the creep-void ... and what did he do aside from that? I hope for a long list with all that hate! I was not really bashing EE, i just said that IMO he showed the weakest performance during the whole tournament from team Secret and each position respectively. I am very bad at remembering moments from games when there is a big tournament with many games, but i remember myself thinking "wow that was bad" or even "wtf is he doing" multiple times. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11089 Posts
On March 07 2016 18:05 hunter_x wrote: well i remember the slark game against liquid, it was wb finals i think. he was really tryhard about his shadow blade ganks. He was picked off multiple times. Secret was very far ahead that game, but if it was closer, that could have cost them. His slark play in the grand finals was pretty perfect though. I think overall he played well. but its not like envy is irreplaceable, they could have the same results with other good carry players;) Envy is a pretty unique sort of carry imo. He is irreplacable for how they get shit done. I think envy is probably the most durable carry interms of sacking his lane and recovering. | ||
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goody153
44282 Posts
On March 07 2016 17:07 TomatoBisque wrote: His leadership is definitely the #1 reason to team with him, but his play on his signature heroes (Chen/Ench/Enigma) are arguably best in the world, and if that isn't insane support/incredible plays tier to you then I don't know what is That's literally 3 heroes compared to what zai, FY, MMY, pie(this pieliedie) and aui(with proper space). His ww , dazzle , es , vs and other non-jungler support doesn't look like he's an "insane support". He's great at jungling heroes no doubt but he's underwhelming when it comes to traditional supports. Of course that doesn't matter since he can lead the team well and creates a good environment (according to envy he is good at doing the morale thing for the team) but saying he's insane individually is like saying s4 is great with carry mids and bulldog is great with non-farming offlaners. Surely s4 can play lesh/sf/storm/TA and bulldog can play bat,clockwork,DS if needed but do they excel at them ? No. Obviously he can play those non-jungler support heroes at an acceptable level but he isn't "insane" with them. He delivers but he doesn't excel and he still mistakes. You want "insane" supports then zai 4 position in the old eg, FY in the old vg or MMY those are the great individual supports. Consistently making plays and great at almost any given heroes. Puppey is like ppd. Like do you see pdd do something like fear (surprisingly fear does alot of plays even as support) or universe does consistently when it comes to like doing game winning positioning and plays alot. No i don't think so but is he important from the team? Yes absolutely, eg would be just another team without him. He's like swindlemelonz or xiao8. For swindle the case is obvious he's not a superb player. But for xiao8 like for example when he plays as the offlane role he isn't the best chinese offlaner, i bet even rabbit is better than him or iceiceice is blatantly a better offlaner than him but his impact to whatever team he plays with is undeniable. On March 07 2016 18:05 hunter_x wrote: well i remember the slark game against liquid, it was wb finals i think. he was really tryhard about his shadow blade ganks. He was picked off multiple times. Secret was very far ahead that game, but if it was closer, that could have cost them. His slark play in the grand finals was pretty perfect though. I think overall he played well. but its not like envy is irreplaceable, they could have the same results with other good carry players;) The replacements that i could see secret improving would be miracle or arteezy. Different playstyle from EE but i can see an improvement from them and it doesn't hurt the team flexibility much since both can also play 1v9 playstyle well. but "they could have the same results with other good carry players" Yeah just no. Silent, xboct, black, notail(lol), TC(LOL) would just make it worse. You should really watch their games from their past teams even now and if you remove your "EE hate" goggles and notice their mistakes you'll realize they also fucking throw games alot and they aren't as flexible as you think. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Like when this EG lineup formed a lot of people looked at it and thought (with good reason) that they are an absolute allstar lineup. But yet the skill difference to for example this Secret lineup is small enough that who wins largely comes down to other factors. | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
On March 07 2016 17:49 Geisterkarle wrote: All those EE-bashing ... Could anyone show me some VOD-links to all the stupid stuff EE did in this Major? I saw the creep-void ... and what did he do aside from that? I hope for a long list with all that hate! watch his ember game that was probably the only game that I thought was a very poor performance envy made a lot of retarded plays that game but I think the whole team started throwing/tilting ppy running into awful situations with full vision over eg as ns, w33 kept getting caught in obvious places, pld in weird positioning during fights so there were times he couldn't get his spells off misery really saved them but honestly that game was 3x harder than it needed to be other than that one game I think all of them played well. some errors here and there but nothing too glaring. idk why everyone's harping about mana voiding the creep, shit happens | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On March 07 2016 18:27 goody153 wrote: That's literally 3 heroes compared to what zai, FY, MMY, pie(this pieliedie) and aui(with proper space). His ww , dazzle , es , vs and other non-jungler support doesn't look like he's an "insane support". He's great at jungling heroes no doubt but he's underwhelming when it comes to traditional supports. Of course that doesn't matter since he can lead the team well and creates a good environment (according to envy he is good at doing the morale thing for the team) but saying he's insane individually is like saying s4 is great with carry mids and bulldog is great with non-farming offlaners. Surely s4 can play lesh/sf/storm/TA and bulldog can play bat,clockwork,DS if needed but do they excel at them ? No. Obviously he can play those non-jungler support heroes at an acceptable level but he isn't "insane" with them. He delivers but he doesn't excel and he still mistakes. You want "insane" supports then zai 4 position in the old eg, FY in the old vg or MMY those are the great individual supports. Consistently making plays and great at almost any given heroes. Puppey is like ppd. Like do you see pdd do something like fear (surprisingly fear does alot of plays even as support) or universe does consistently when it comes to like doing game winning positioning and plays alot. No i don't think so but is he important from the team? Yes absolutely, eg would be just another team without him. He's like swindlemelonz or xiao8. For swindle the case is obvious he's not a superb player. But for xiao8 like for example when he plays as the offlane role he isn't the best chinese offlaner, i bet even rabbit is better than him or iceiceice is blatantly a better offlaner than him but his impact to whatever team he plays with is undeniable. The replacements that i could see secret improving would be miracle or arteezy. Different playstyle from EE but i can see an improvement from them and it doesn't hurt the team flexibility much since both can also play 1v9 playstyle well. but "they could have the same results with other good carry players" Yeah just no. Silent, xboct, black, notail(lol), TC(LOL) would just make it worse. You should really watch their games from their past teams even now and if you remove your "EE hate" goggles and notice their mistakes you'll realize they also fucking throw games alot and they aren't as flexible as you think. EE hate Googles? Just because i dont think he is top 3 carry or what? I never said that i think ee is bad, or that i hate him. So dont just make stuff up plz. Also why do you come up with those names? When i Talk about good carrys, i think of rtz, miracle, matumbaman. Those are the 3 best in the West for me. The guys you named are average carrys in my opinion. | ||
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Exoteric
Australia2330 Posts
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goody153
44282 Posts
He wasn't some obviously impressive core player like rtz or miracle nor was he consistent in the past teams he has been or when 5Jungz first few months. Though he is a better ursa player than envy for sure but better overall rofl I know you love liquid but dude that's going too far but it's not as worse as notail being a great carry by somebody. He's like black in VG, black was really good back in VG but was he still really good with other teams ? I don't think so. Was loda ever really good playing with the other iteration of alliance? I don't think so. On March 07 2016 19:02 andyrau wrote: watch his ember game that was probably the only game that I thought was a very poor performance envy made a lot of retarded plays that game but I think the whole team started throwing/tilting ppy running into awful situations with full vision over eg as ns, w33 kept getting caught in obvious places, pld in weird positioning during fights so there were times he couldn't get his spells off misery really saved them but honestly that game was 3x harder than it needed to be other than that one game I think all of them played well. some errors here and there but nothing too glaring. idk why everyone's harping about mana voiding the creep, shit happens No doubt that ember game by EE was some serious fuck-ups from him, he died like 4 times i think trying to SoF chain jump out but he got stunned all the time. Too many unnecessary risk that game. The problem is EE is not the only one who made mistakes and it wasn't even a big deal with that AM game since they already lost that time. And how are they supposed to win with earthshaker-dazzle supports with LD+AM core against a push-strat, they already lost from the draft in a get-go yet EE still gets the blame for the game for one misclicked mana void when they already lost two lanes of raxes. And it's not like EE's the only one who makes mistakes. There was even a puppey winterwyvern game where he had two panic ults and the mentioned dive into all EG as NS with gem and full vision. There was another game where w33ha dived into 4 people mid as ES alone for some reason obviously he died and also those baited panic ults from w33ha as DP as well. For sure ee made mistakes but holy shit it's as if the other secret members are perfect that they never made horrible mistakes. | ||
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hunter_x
Germany2762 Posts
On March 07 2016 19:49 Exoteric wrote: matumbaman as top 3 carry? he plays a better ursa than envy but that's about it If u think so thats fine. Its just my opinion. | ||
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DE3me
Germany263 Posts
On March 07 2016 13:36 honeylover wrote: Then you're a worshipper of the worst kind carry ever. Farm all day, never contribute to early game and teamfight until you 6-slotted. Let me tell u, dude. Safe farming doesn't work for about 4 patch in a row. EE is a 'win big or lose big' kind of carry. Stupid decision is considered as a superb play if it's working, otherwise it's stupid. In EE case, even if it's working, noone give him a credit. If it's fail, he's the worst carry ever. All you remember from him is when he fails, even with the statistic whole tournament said differently. U don't expect EE is the second least death average in Shanghai Major, right? The only questionable play from him in this whole tournament is when he blinked from cliff to sleight 4 people. Other plays that u considered as 'fail' actually describe 'win big or lose big' things. Haters gonna hate, but noone force u to like him anyway. It's just annoying to see ignorant people hate EE for his fails, but never give him credit for his success. Why the hell do i have to be salty, worship a passive carry style or hate EE when i'm criticising him for things the player himself would criticise himself for? All i said was that is was the worst performance of a winning(!!!) carry in an important tournament and giving some examples about what i meant. It is gross that people are only able to see black and white. To say that EE does a lot for the team in the way he farms the map is a valid argument, but no excuse for the blatant stupid plays he had this tournament and most of the time it wasn't even go big or go home, it was just a 0% play or a mechanical error. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
People get triggered because these sorts of generalizations get thrown around based on some individual moments in a game on a regular basis as if that was what was happening all the time. In general if Secret does well I don't think EE will ever be the player who stands out. They are most comfortable with a style where they splitup, are efficient and play around certain timings to get pickoffs and objectives. EE is almost never the guy who makes the plays, he is often the guy who postures on the map as aggressively as possible to force reactions from the enemy team, which then at some point can lead to free pickoffs for the other players (for which they get the credit). | ||
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