EPTWhat makes you think it is working now just cause Dendi said so in an interview, you should learn to not trust the players opinions because they will say anything just to not look bad infront of their fans/orgas, proven most recently by the duplicity that c9 had in their team regardless of what their problems were they all claimed its all fine till the team exploded and 2 players got removed but everything is fine and dandy right?
Na`Vi Discussion - Page 67
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drusalnik
Bulgaria133 Posts
What makes you think it is working now just cause Dendi said so in an interview, you should learn to not trust the players opinions because they will say anything just to not look bad infront of their fans/orgas, proven most recently by the duplicity that c9 had in their team regardless of what their problems were they all claimed its all fine till the team exploded and 2 players got removed but everything is fine and dandy right? | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
On February 06 2015 01:40 drusalnik wrote: What credit? Mediocrity of a team that is known for its championship name.. Please. Well they are passing through a slump, what do you expect ? to go from bad to TI champion in 1 week ? keep your expectations in check, you take what you can get That the team was godlike yesterday, doesnt mean it has to be today, not to mention, you are working for it, there are millions and millions of examples of this, sometimes stuff happens. | ||
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drusalnik
Bulgaria133 Posts
On February 06 2015 02:25 Faruko wrote: Well they are passing through a slump, what do you expect ? to go from bad to TI champion in 1 week ? keep your expectations in check, you take what you can get That the team was godlike yesterday, doesnt mean it has to be today, not to mention, you are working for it, there are millions and millions of examples of this, sometimes stuff happens. I have no expectations for Na'Vi i'm awere where they stand at the moment. You should look at the topic tough and tell some other people to keep their expectations in check. I for one am happy they are fiding a road to follow but i'm upset that it wont last cause it is Na'Vi and after this tournament they are bound to change roster again if i am to believe every rumor but rumors so far have always been correct in the community. Eitherway todays games vs EG only proved that they are on the right path with game one but after that their hero pool and their skill + drafting ability and understanding of the meta held them back. The hero pool problem is there since the begining of time they don't want to work on it just look at the stats and the games they win, they are not innovative enough at the moment to play with the big dogs. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
They're at a weak point, no doubt about that. Certain players are not playing as well as they should, strategies aren't always up to scratch, blah blah blah. Does this mean the team is doomed and should disband? No. Does this mean their cores are shit and will never be better? No. Does this mean people should shut the fuck up with the whining and realize that certain changes are harder to adapt to than others?Maaaaaaaaaaaybe. I mean, this is supposed to be a fan club thread, why do some people have this burning itch to continuously go on talking shit about players / team over and over? People used to get banned for this kind of shit on original TL, whatever happened to that I wonder. It's like if you hate Xboct so much or think Dendi is washed up or the organization is useless and does nothing but kill talent, there's plenty of places where you could be posting that, but the fan thread of the team in question really isn't one. Nevermind that anyone with half a fucking brain would see that the team is actually improving at a pretty good pace and once they work out some of the fairly obvious flaws they have right now, they will be a clear favorite against all but some 3-5 teams in the world. Whatever, I don't even know why I bothered writing this since 2 posts down the line someone will go on yapping about just how bad Xboct is and how Dendi should retire or something equally retarded. Oh well! | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On February 06 2015 02:58 Salazarz wrote: I'm actually pretty sick of this thread. Like, all these so called 'fans' talking shit because oh my gosh a team that's been around for nearly 5 years for the first time in the said period is NOT considered a favorite to win whatever tournament they are entering. Then half the so called 'fans' cry out for more player reshuffling and kicks because oh my gosh 2 months with a busy schedule wasn't enough for the team to go back to winning the fuck out of everything (and no, they don't "have no results", yes they are not a top3 team right now but come on). Like, what other team have you seen, in any game or sport, that would actually dominate and be favored to win EVERYTHING for FIVE FUCKING YEARS? They're at a weak point, no doubt about that. Certain players are not playing as well as they should, strategies aren't always up to scratch, blah blah blah. Does this mean the team is doomed and should disband? No. Does this mean their cores are shit and will never be better? No. Does this mean people should shut the fuck up with the whining and realize that certain changes are harder to adapt to than others?Maaaaaaaaaaaybe. I mean, this is supposed to be a fan club thread, why do some people have this burning itch to continuously go on talking shit about players / team over and over? People used to get banned for this kind of shit on original TL, whatever happened to that I wonder. It's like if you hate Xboct so much or think Dendi is washed up or the organization is useless and does nothing but kill talent, there's plenty of places where you could be posting that, but the fan thread of the team in question really isn't one. Nevermind that anyone with half a fucking brain would see that the team is actually improving at a pretty good pace and once they work out some of the fairly obvious flaws they have right now, they will be a clear favorite against all but some 3-5 teams in the world. Whatever, I don't even know why I bothered writing this since 2 posts down the line someone will go on yapping about just how bad Xboct is and how Dendi should retire or something equally retarded. Oh well! Don't be mad! Not everyone has the age or an open and analytic mind to see as clearly as some other do. Since I joined this thread I tried to extinguish or at least make slightly weaker the flame against Xboct but I couldn't do it. Now he is performing better than everyone else and people say Funn1k must be kicked, or Dendi, or everyone. Most people tend to be on top or rage and flame, as for me, I hope Funn1k gets better and Dendi more solid. I think in a month, if they keep up, they will be top 3 western. That would make me happy, for them not for me. | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
On February 06 2015 02:58 Salazarz wrote: I'm actually pretty sick of this thread. Like, all these so called 'fans' talking shit because oh my gosh a team that's been around for nearly 5 years for the first time in the said period is NOT considered a favorite to win whatever tournament they are entering. Then half the so called 'fans' cry out for more player reshuffling and kicks because oh my gosh 2 months with a busy schedule wasn't enough for the team to go back to winning the fuck out of everything (and no, they don't "have no results", yes they are not a top3 team right now but come on). Like, what other team have you seen, in any game or sport, that would actually dominate and be favored to win EVERYTHING for FIVE FUCKING YEARS? They're at a weak point, no doubt about that. Certain players are not playing as well as they should, strategies aren't always up to scratch, blah blah blah. Does this mean the team is doomed and should disband? No. Does this mean their cores are shit and will never be better? No. Does this mean people should shut the fuck up with the whining and realize that certain changes are harder to adapt to than others?Maaaaaaaaaaaybe. I mean, this is supposed to be a fan club thread, why do some people have this burning itch to continuously go on talking shit about players / team over and over? People used to get banned for this kind of shit on original TL, whatever happened to that I wonder. It's like if you hate Xboct so much or think Dendi is washed up or the organization is useless and does nothing but kill talent, there's plenty of places where you could be posting that, but the fan thread of the team in question really isn't one. Nevermind that anyone with half a fucking brain would see that the team is actually improving at a pretty good pace and once they work out some of the fairly obvious flaws they have right now, they will be a clear favorite against all but some 3-5 teams in the world. Whatever, I don't even know why I bothered writing this since 2 posts down the line someone will go on yapping about just how bad Xboct is and how Dendi should retire or something equally retarded. Oh well! I agree, this thread is garbage, people just come here to spit their hate on Navi, too bad this isn't worth a warning from a mod, like it would be on TL. Any kind of good criticism is really welcomed on fanclub thread, it opens to good discussion, but here this is just ridiculous. I mean from a match to another match every players on Navi would be kicked already according to this thread. Hvost a month ago, Dendi few weeks ago, now it's Funnik's turn etc... I've already said it but it's like people are watching Dota as a solo game, and never consider the team aspect. And I'm not even talking about the completely ignorant posts plaguing this thread. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
And yeah, Dendi is even more tied to the performance of his team than you'd expect a mid to be. His last two QoP games I watched in DTV from his perspective and that lane against Tinker he was just shit on by Chen and he did what he could but he couldn't get rid of the creep and no one came to help and the lane was just over and from that point on he got what he could but the map was getting smashed and you could see the tiltmeter rising. XBOCT has indeed been playing far better. Some of the picks for him, like Dendi, have been quite bad. Luna was never a good idea. But here practice comes up again. A carry that is big in the meta (if not the tournament meta) is Slark, but he takes practice. Doesn't even seem to be a tool in the shed. Is this his fault, Goblak's fault, team's fault? The team's morale has again gone to shit but this exacerbates everything else, it is not the cause of everything. Their last two games their teamfight coordination was so bad. But their picks were bad. Their individual play was bad. They almost-but-didn't-quite get good results from pretty much everything they did. Ultimately things keep coming down to the same issues. Goblak is not a great player. His drafts have failed to convince me. But he should be working. Everyone else is a great player, when they are on their games. Communication, work ethic, adaptation. This is where Na'Vi continues to fall down. I continue to think that until proven otherwise, the parts are greater than the whole, and something must be done about it with that fact accepted and understood. How long can a team deteriorate for the same problems, with how many new faces, how many chances to fix it? It's just said. I don't expect Na'Vi to dominate right now. But as was the case when I felt like supporting this team was a brown-bag-over-head spectacle and could not longer primary their flair, it's not just that they lose, it's that they will go out and get terribly embarrassed. This may have happened in game one if they didn't pull out that fantastic PA pick. It might not have happened game two if they had remembered Dendi can play a very strong mid hero called Termplar Assassin. Who knows. But it is happening, and there is no arguing that right now, and for a long, long time now, Na'Vi has a loser's mindset. They have become accustomed to this. They are all still competitive - some more than others - but the psychology of this matter is indisputable. A game or series begins to look like a loss and of course it is a loss because the team loses. Something has to be done. This is a waste of a lot of talent. | ||
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EnumaAvalon
Philippines3613 Posts
On February 06 2015 00:02 Gevna wrote: I'd like to remind that almost nobody expected Navi one week ago to actually get through the wildcard match or reach the main event. They reached the winner bracket with really good performances. They just lost 2-1 against a team of the top 4. So before this thread is, again, overwhelmed by hate, I'm asking you to really remember how you felt about Navi one week ago, and how watching them losing 2-1 to eg in the winner bracket, is actually a big breath of fresh air. I'm not saying this is a run we can be satisfied with, their shape is far from the Navi we loved, yet this is way more than what we could have been expecting and a big step in the right direction. Now there is still the loser bracket, but the BO1 format is scaring the hell out of me. Actually, everyone expected them to be at least 2nd in wildcards' but not this top 8 finish IMO. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
On February 06 2015 03:10 Racket wrote: Don't be mad! Not everyone has the age or an open and analytic mind to see as clearly as some other do. Since I joined this thread I tried to extinguish or at least make slightly weaker the flame against Xboct but I couldn't do it. Now he is performing better than everyone else and people say Funn1k must be kicked, or Dendi, or everyone. Most people tend to be on top or rage and flame, as for me, I hope Funn1k gets better and Dendi more solid. I think in a month, if they keep up, they will be top 3 western. That would make me happy, for them not for me. Yeah there will always be flamers and they seem to get the most pleasure doing it in the player-they-hate's fan pages... sadistic horrible people  There's a very clear difference between constructive criticism/hoping for change and bashing players as some of us have resorted to doing... | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
On February 06 2015 06:42 EnumaAvalon wrote: Actually, everyone expected them to be at least 2nd in wildcards' but not this top 8 finish IMO. Last time I checked PR / HGT was leading the pole, which is quite logical since Navi is used to lose everytime to PR. Anyway that doesn't change much about what I was saying. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
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goody153
44237 Posts
On February 06 2015 09:27 the bear jew wrote: I think in general Navi is playing much better then they have for a while. It is frustrating seeing them doing so well one game and losing the next. But I think they are slowing raising their floor and ceiling for performances. I do believe they can beat HGT and whoever comes out of the wreck that is the C9 vs Ehome match. And after that, just gotta have faith. I have no doubt they are hungry for victory, they are born to conquer after all. So let's have faith, they rebounded from an absolutely god awful day 1 and i have no reason to believe they can't bounce back from the loss to EG and come back strong. Nothings wrong losing to eg . they are one of the favorites to win the tournament anyways. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
On February 06 2015 05:03 FHDH wrote: Aye, I do not like Goblak's drafts but they should have done far better with Wisp+Tiny. It's one of the most powerful combinations in the goddamned game, even if the surrounding draft was not my cup of tea. But "whoops, we could only practice four days because reasons" certainly had to contribute to the coordination of this. Were any offensive relocates successful at all? And yeah, Dendi is even more tied to the performance of his team than you'd expect a mid to be. His last two QoP games I watched in DTV from his perspective and that lane against Tinker he was just shit on by Chen and he did what he could but he couldn't get rid of the creep and no one came to help and the lane was just over and from that point on he got what he could but the map was getting smashed and you could see the tiltmeter rising. XBOCT has indeed been playing far better. Some of the picks for him, like Dendi, have been quite bad. Luna was never a good idea. But here practice comes up again. A carry that is big in the meta (if not the tournament meta) is Slark, but he takes practice. Doesn't even seem to be a tool in the shed. Is this his fault, Goblak's fault, team's fault? The team's morale has again gone to shit but this exacerbates everything else, it is not the cause of everything. Their last two games their teamfight coordination was so bad. But their picks were bad. Their individual play was bad. They almost-but-didn't-quite get good results from pretty much everything they did. Ultimately things keep coming down to the same issues. Goblak is not a great player. His drafts have failed to convince me. But he should be working. Everyone else is a great player, when they are on their games. Communication, work ethic, adaptation. This is where Na'Vi continues to fall down. I continue to think that until proven otherwise, the parts are greater than the whole, and something must be done about it with that fact accepted and understood. How long can a team deteriorate for the same problems, with how many new faces, how many chances to fix it? It's just said. I don't expect Na'Vi to dominate right now. But as was the case when I felt like supporting this team was a brown-bag-over-head spectacle and could not longer primary their flair, it's not just that they lose, it's that they will go out and get terribly embarrassed. This may have happened in game one if they didn't pull out that fantastic PA pick. It might not have happened game two if they had remembered Dendi can play a very strong mid hero called Termplar Assassin. Who knows. But it is happening, and there is no arguing that right now, and for a long, long time now, Na'Vi has a loser's mindset. They have become accustomed to this. They are all still competitive - some more than others - but the psychology of this matter is indisputable. A game or series begins to look like a loss and of course it is a loss because the team loses. Something has to be done. This is a waste of a lot of talent. How the F is embarrasing to lose against one of the best teams in the world ? does that means every team in every sports gets embarrased if they lose to a simply superior team ? Does losing to Real Madrid is embarrasing if you were supposed to lose anyway ? you do realize NaVi was the only team that put up a fight in this Bo3 ? People keep telling me that "they have their expectations in check", but i just dont see it, i keep seeing people flaming Navi for losing to a simply superior team, were their plays not optimal enough ? one could argue, were they outplayed ? yes, they were, was that in line with what was supposed to happen ? yes, it was grown people say "We just got outplayed, it was impressive from them, we had nothing to do" and they move on, they just prepare for whats next | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
While im not saying they may not have it, i feel the term is another, and its more akin to their situation "Bipolar" PS: i did not realize you were talking about the old NaVi in the embarrasment, i blame myself only, im sorry  | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
Na'Vi certainly isn't permanently in the latter state of mind, but they have no buoyancy. As Dendi said in their interview the reason for their day 2 bounce-back was they had someone to help them unfuck their brains. But you don't have time for that in the middle of a series. And I think this mindset is deeply rooted in the environment. It's the old "change of scenery" trope. It's not that these individuals are not capable of being highly competitive in different environments or in the team as it stands. It's that they may not be capable of maintaining the necessary mindset to be so as long as they are in the place they have seen so much failure. It is too easy to snap back. Whereas on a different team it could actually be quite easy to believe things will be different even when they get equally as difficult. I feel very confident this is where they are. It is not to say it is unfixable, but I think any sports psychologist will tell you it is a very difficult hill to climb. | ||
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Faruko
Chile34173 Posts
and not, its not just to get your friend on a free vacation like ive read in this site sometimes (facepalm emoticon please) a good coach (NOT in game leader) could do wonders for a team in this state, there are individuals who have the power to inject conviction and a winning mindset, theres a reason why all those speeches and books of self-help are such a gold mine, because people need that extra push from others maybe Navi need one of them right now ? | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On February 06 2015 10:04 goody153 wrote: Nothings wrong losing to eg . they are one of the favorites to win the tournament anyways. Hello did I misread ur well-publicized power rank?  Anyway Na'Vi are performing above expectation this tournament regardless. I think most fans should be pleased. | ||
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FHDH
United States7023 Posts
On February 06 2015 11:31 Sn0_Man wrote: Hello did I misread ur well-publicized power rank? Anyway Na'Vi are performing above expectation this tournament regardless. I think most fans should be pleased. Outcomes-wise I think this is true. But looking deeper at it, it is not at all satisfying. | ||
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