On January 17 2015 03:34 FHDH wrote: Yeah so just got done watching the Empire games and lol.
I don't know why I ever believe this team might be turning a corner.
Don't be mad, we all want to see some of them succeed but not all you want will happen.
Well, I guess we can say the same for every CIS team at this point. Empire losing to NaVi at DAC, HR and PR getting eliminated right off the bat in SL11 (being them in the finals for DAC qualifier). Right now I feel like VP.P, Empire, HR and PR are all at the same level. Showing some badass performances here and sucking so bad there. Soo.... I don't know guys, if I were you I would not hop on the CIS rollercoaster this year and just enjoy Dota2 as much as you can without actually caring so much about who you cheer for.
In my honest opinion, I didn't like EG because they were so emo and sad, NaVi is playing so bad with some sparks here and there, Fnatic is no more, C9 I don't know, I don't feel them so much, the other CIS teams I never cared a lot about. I began to enjoy TS because of Kuro and N0tail but after the rooster change I don't really appreciate them so much. So, I guess as much as I said, I will just enjoy N0tail's plays at C9, some chinese badass moves, and hope for Dendi and Funnik to get some love and find either better teammates or team.
On January 17 2015 08:44 deadmau wrote: [quote]
the funny thing is you were the one who originally who held out hope that things were trending up for Na'Vi, and wanted to withhold judgement, when most people know they are clearly shit and have been for awhile. honestly i dunno how i can cheer for them without Puppey in there. He wasn't the star or anything, nothing crazy, but I felt like he embodied that team somewhat maybe due to him being the drafter/captain a lot. He was sort of their compass? Without someone to fill his shoes, and point them in a direction, just not fun to watch.
Man, I don't know, Puppey was the face of NaVi for the successful period of time, as much as he was the face of failure, but not everyone wants to realize it. When you find your "favourite player" it is so hard to accept when he make mistakes and it is easier to blame other. When the meta changed and Ppy began to draft shit plus Xboct's feeding tendencies it is far easier to flame him instead of Ppy. But remember that even Ppy recognized his so called movements were off, so he is at least as guilty as the other 4 if not more (the weight of carrying his team to victory through draft is heavier than making magic happens by perfect execution with a losing composition).
Xboct is the target for flame because he is the thrower and not Dendi the playmaker. Xboct is just polemic, think of it this way: As far as Dota's meta fit Xboct's playstyle he rocks and when not then he feeds, it is his playstyle, it is like expecting RTZ not to go emo after any stupid minimal thing, no sir that will never be so. After so much time we see Troll once again as a good carry and Xboct getting the best of him (just an exaggeration) and Dendi doing really good stuff on Magnus. Two games where they don't get any of those heroes and they play shit.
Sometimes Puppey failed the team, but NaVi NEVER got humiliated. Now they feel the humiliation very very often. I mean Lets be honest, can you imagine NaVi getting stomped by MVP last year? Not to mention that this is going to be the first time for NaVi not getting the invite for TI, and it is not looking good for the qualifiers, i hope that they can get their things together.
Yea, I agree, leaving players (former and current) aside. NaVi has never faced such position, and now they are always going further down, with some games/series showing a good overall performance.
I am not defending anyone. I just wanted to state that people tends to strengthen their opinion (usually off the mark in my eyes) based on two separated events, even if those events are related to the topic. Making statements of the caliber "Xboct sucks and always sucked" is the same as "Ppy never sucked he is not to blame". Both made mistakes, same with Dendi and Kuro and Funnik. Time has passed, NaVi is not Ppy+Kuro+Funnik+Xboct+Dendi, we just need to stop comparing any rooster to its best rooster, its not the smartest thing to do.
After this loss I guess ZG should make his move even if it means losing a TI5 invite. I find better for NaVi not to go to TI that getting rekt and humiliated. But "Sponsors" you know? It is always about that, so....
From the organization's and the player's perspective, it's certainly better to go to TI, even if your results aren't good. Also as for roster changes, who do you want to poach? With TI invites coming and Valve's absurdly vague standards for inviting, I suspect players don't want to risk losing an invite by leaving their teams, especially since it's not as if Navi's a lock for the invite, so you're left with attempting to recruit free agents or players on teams who aren't in the running for a slot(so no VPP, Empire, or HR players).
Well, I think it will only get better for teams in general when Dota reaches a the state of: . Every team has a coach . Every team has more than one player for each role . The coaches have the ability to sit some and call some depending on their performances and playstyle/hero pool
With this Dota's teams will expand their reach to a gross spectrum of possibilities, be it strategy, execution or even level of performance. Until then we are bound to cheer for players instead of teams and flame whoever seems guilty at the time.
Given this, if I were ZG, I would hire hungry players and a coach, no one tied to NaVi in any way. Give him free pass to whatever he wants to try and if that turns into Xboct and Dendi leaving, so be it. Of course, given ZG's relation with Xboct and the risk of losing TI invite, that won't happen. I am speaking my mind, I don't have any connections to any player nor do I run a team, so I don't think ZG will think even 5% alike.
I quote myself. I think coaches can fix the problem if they are given enough resources. Players not practicing are present in every sport, and they are dealt with substitutes.
This
"you dont practice ? well, there are 100 others like you waiting for a chance" (unless your name is Messi or Ronaldo :p)
Heheheh, poor guys those subs...
Actually Ronaldo is one of the most driven players ever... Allen Iverson on the other hand... we gonna talk about practice?
agree with him being driven, role model etc, but he is a selfish prick
On January 17 2015 22:00 NInoff wrote: [quote] Sometimes Puppey failed the team, but NaVi NEVER got humiliated. Now they feel the humiliation very very often. I mean Lets be honest, can you imagine NaVi getting stomped by MVP last year? Not to mention that this is going to be the first time for NaVi not getting the invite for TI, and it is not looking good for the qualifiers, i hope that they can get their things together.
Yea, I agree, leaving players (former and current) aside. NaVi has never faced such position, and now they are always going further down, with some games/series showing a good overall performance.
I am not defending anyone. I just wanted to state that people tends to strengthen their opinion (usually off the mark in my eyes) based on two separated events, even if those events are related to the topic. Making statements of the caliber "Xboct sucks and always sucked" is the same as "Ppy never sucked he is not to blame". Both made mistakes, same with Dendi and Kuro and Funnik. Time has passed, NaVi is not Ppy+Kuro+Funnik+Xboct+Dendi, we just need to stop comparing any rooster to its best rooster, its not the smartest thing to do.
After this loss I guess ZG should make his move even if it means losing a TI5 invite. I find better for NaVi not to go to TI that getting rekt and humiliated. But "Sponsors" you know? It is always about that, so....
From the organization's and the player's perspective, it's certainly better to go to TI, even if your results aren't good. Also as for roster changes, who do you want to poach? With TI invites coming and Valve's absurdly vague standards for inviting, I suspect players don't want to risk losing an invite by leaving their teams, especially since it's not as if Navi's a lock for the invite, so you're left with attempting to recruit free agents or players on teams who aren't in the running for a slot(so no VPP, Empire, or HR players).
Well, I think it will only get better for teams in general when Dota reaches a the state of: . Every team has a coach . Every team has more than one player for each role . The coaches have the ability to sit some and call some depending on their performances and playstyle/hero pool
With this Dota's teams will expand their reach to a gross spectrum of possibilities, be it strategy, execution or even level of performance. Until then we are bound to cheer for players instead of teams and flame whoever seems guilty at the time.
Given this, if I were ZG, I would hire hungry players and a coach, no one tied to NaVi in any way. Give him free pass to whatever he wants to try and if that turns into Xboct and Dendi leaving, so be it. Of course, given ZG's relation with Xboct and the risk of losing TI invite, that won't happen. I am speaking my mind, I don't have any connections to any player nor do I run a team, so I don't think ZG will think even 5% alike.
I quote myself. I think coaches can fix the problem if they are given enough resources. Players not practicing are present in every sport, and they are dealt with substitutes.
This
"you dont practice ? well, there are 100 others like you waiting for a chance" (unless your name is Messi or Ronaldo :p)
Here is your problem. The dota scene is way to small for a thing like this. "Do you practice? No , well there 100 like you waiting for a chance" the reality is there are really not that many people outside the pro scene who can play on that level the pro scene consists of around 150-200players spread across all tiers of teams everything else is just fun and games for the rest.
It is baffeling tough because the amount of money put in to dota2 are not justified by the numbers of pro's playing the game at all.
Coaches can fix the problem to some degree but i don't see them been as valuable as coaches like football,basketball,tennis and so on and so forth at least not in the next year or two.
And the worst thing is people bet on personalitys even retardet ones like Singx2 or ixmike with hes virgin stache and so on and not on skill/dedication and so on and untill there are players like those in the scene coaches will never work. Take Mario Balloteli for example fenomenal player but a moron in its own right got major contracts but after a while the team decided to stop putting up with hes moronic behavior so he went from a championship team to a struggling Milan and he will probably end hes career preaty soon cause of hes behavior cause people managers coaches no one tolerates a idiot except the e-sport community it seems, because and i qoute " HES FUN YELLING FUCK THEM IN THE P*SSY" or similar things like those or rage kids like Idra and what not.
Idra got kicked of his team for his behavior.
Well he is kinda right about it, idra is the exception to the rule
that was kinda different though ,, idra was toxic on everybody
he was like shitting for the reasons shitting people
I think idra got kicked because he was doing something he didnt enjoy doing. For EG that basically ment his personal brand became unsellable for their sponsors.
On January 17 2015 22:33 Racket wrote: [quote] Yea, I agree, leaving players (former and current) aside. NaVi has never faced such position, and now they are always going further down, with some games/series showing a good overall performance.
I am not defending anyone. I just wanted to state that people tends to strengthen their opinion (usually off the mark in my eyes) based on two separated events, even if those events are related to the topic. Making statements of the caliber "Xboct sucks and always sucked" is the same as "Ppy never sucked he is not to blame". Both made mistakes, same with Dendi and Kuro and Funnik. Time has passed, NaVi is not Ppy+Kuro+Funnik+Xboct+Dendi, we just need to stop comparing any rooster to its best rooster, its not the smartest thing to do.
After this loss I guess ZG should make his move even if it means losing a TI5 invite. I find better for NaVi not to go to TI that getting rekt and humiliated. But "Sponsors" you know? It is always about that, so....
From the organization's and the player's perspective, it's certainly better to go to TI, even if your results aren't good. Also as for roster changes, who do you want to poach? With TI invites coming and Valve's absurdly vague standards for inviting, I suspect players don't want to risk losing an invite by leaving their teams, especially since it's not as if Navi's a lock for the invite, so you're left with attempting to recruit free agents or players on teams who aren't in the running for a slot(so no VPP, Empire, or HR players).
Well, I think it will only get better for teams in general when Dota reaches a the state of: . Every team has a coach . Every team has more than one player for each role . The coaches have the ability to sit some and call some depending on their performances and playstyle/hero pool
With this Dota's teams will expand their reach to a gross spectrum of possibilities, be it strategy, execution or even level of performance. Until then we are bound to cheer for players instead of teams and flame whoever seems guilty at the time.
Given this, if I were ZG, I would hire hungry players and a coach, no one tied to NaVi in any way. Give him free pass to whatever he wants to try and if that turns into Xboct and Dendi leaving, so be it. Of course, given ZG's relation with Xboct and the risk of losing TI invite, that won't happen. I am speaking my mind, I don't have any connections to any player nor do I run a team, so I don't think ZG will think even 5% alike.
I quote myself. I think coaches can fix the problem if they are given enough resources. Players not practicing are present in every sport, and they are dealt with substitutes.
This
"you dont practice ? well, there are 100 others like you waiting for a chance" (unless your name is Messi or Ronaldo :p)
Here is your problem. The dota scene is way to small for a thing like this. "Do you practice? No , well there 100 like you waiting for a chance" the reality is there are really not that many people outside the pro scene who can play on that level the pro scene consists of around 150-200players spread across all tiers of teams everything else is just fun and games for the rest.
It is baffeling tough because the amount of money put in to dota2 are not justified by the numbers of pro's playing the game at all.
Coaches can fix the problem to some degree but i don't see them been as valuable as coaches like football,basketball,tennis and so on and so forth at least not in the next year or two.
And the worst thing is people bet on personalitys even retardet ones like Singx2 or ixmike with hes virgin stache and so on and not on skill/dedication and so on and untill there are players like those in the scene coaches will never work. Take Mario Balloteli for example fenomenal player but a moron in its own right got major contracts but after a while the team decided to stop putting up with hes moronic behavior so he went from a championship team to a struggling Milan and he will probably end hes career preaty soon cause of hes behavior cause people managers coaches no one tolerates a idiot except the e-sport community it seems, because and i qoute " HES FUN YELLING FUCK THEM IN THE P*SSY" or similar things like those or rage kids like Idra and what not.
Idra got kicked of his team for his behavior.
Well he is kinda right about it, idra is the exception to the rule
that was kinda different though ,, idra was toxic on everybody
he was like shitting for the reasons shitting people
I think idra got kicked because he was doing something he didnt enjoy doing. For EG that basically ment his personal brand became unsellable for their sponsors.
he started doing things that put a bad light on the organization, it's sponsors etc, that's why EG booted him and he so deserved that, but hey he's back now a changed man it seemed, we will see
Well, I guess we will have to wait a little longer untill current pro players retire and decide to keep working on the scene (and the community itself grown a little bit more)
SC2 has been going for years, so their former stars are now the coach of the current players...
On January 30 2015 15:42 bagels21 wrote: what the hell happened to funnik and who is this imposter
relevant
Xboct back to his roots with offlane and get a new carry if that's easier to find? Carry is supposedly the easiest position. And from what I saw of Xboct on games he played offlane, he had a shitload of farm for it. Surprised even the casters.
So what happened in the HGT game? Whole team imploded?
On February 07 2015 07:04 the bear jew wrote: So what happened in the HGT game? Whole team imploded?
They got a decent lead but funn1k warlock ulted in the worst manner possible time after time after time losing them fights almost single-handedly and xboct was pretty underfarmed this game since he was kinda offlane. HGT just won too many fights when funn1k rocked nothing and eventually double-rocked nothing.
On February 07 2015 04:53 Faruko wrote: Well, I guess we will have to wait a little longer untill current pro players retire and decide to keep working on the scene (and the community itself grown a little bit more)
SC2 has been going for years, so their former stars are now the coach of the current players...
In China the coaches are basically explayers that are similar in skill to actual pros (mikasa for instance) I could see CIS guys like LoH going into coaching, but casting seems like a way more rewarding gig. NA pros never seem to retire lol
On February 07 2015 07:04 the bear jew wrote: So what happened in the HGT game? Whole team imploded?
They got a decent lead but funn1k warlock ulted in the worst manner possible time after time after time losing them fights almost single-handedly and xboct was pretty underfarmed this game since he was kinda offlane. HGT just won too many fights when funn1k rocked nothing and eventually double-rocked nothing.
also Na'Vi's draft was not built to win fights past a certain point if they weren't snowballing hard. They lacked stuns outside of Warlock(Rubick lift) while HGT's team comp was built for long fights and high ground defense. They probably should have drafted Xboct his troll lol
The availability of qualified coaches will fix itself in time as with casters. As the scene gets more competitive and goes on for longer, more old pros will be forced into retirement and those suitable to either role will frequently take it. On top of this,when coaching infrastructure becomes more ubiquitous and robust, talent from outside the retired player pool will develop, just as in pro sports.
On February 07 2015 07:04 the bear jew wrote: So what happened in the HGT game? Whole team imploded?
They got a decent lead but funn1k warlock ulted in the worst manner possible time after time after time losing them fights almost single-handedly and xboct was pretty underfarmed this game since he was kinda offlane. HGT just won too many fights when funn1k rocked nothing and eventually double-rocked nothing.
also Na'Vi's draft was not built to win fights past a certain point if they weren't snowballing hard. They lacked stuns outside of Warlock(Rubick lift) while HGT's team comp was built for long fights and high ground defense. They probably should have drafted Xboct his troll lol
Questionable, a core warlock with aghs+refresher has about a 80% winrate or something similar. If you reach the refresher on a descent timing, you should be ashamed if you still loose the game.
On February 07 2015 07:04 the bear jew wrote: So what happened in the HGT game? Whole team imploded?
They got a decent lead but funn1k warlock ulted in the worst manner possible time after time after time losing them fights almost single-handedly and xboct was pretty underfarmed this game since he was kinda offlane. HGT just won too many fights when funn1k rocked nothing and eventually double-rocked nothing.
also Na'Vi's draft was not built to win fights past a certain point if they weren't snowballing hard. They lacked stuns outside of Warlock(Rubick lift) while HGT's team comp was built for long fights and high ground defense. They probably should have drafted Xboct his troll lol
Questionable, a core warlock with aghs+refresher has about a 80% winrate or something similar. If you reach the refresher on a descent timing, you should be ashamed if you still loose the game.
past a certain point is what I want to emphasize.
To get core warlock with aghs+ refresher means you have to sacrifice farm on your other carries; Ember/Axe/WD are amazing high ground defense heroes that can punish you pretty hard. Nevertheless, Funnik played really bad, so I'm not defending him at all. Just saying the draft was built to win at a certain point and once they missed the window it was going to be really hard
On February 07 2015 07:46 FHDH wrote: The availability of qualified coaches will fix itself in time as with casters. As the scene gets more competitive and goes on for longer, more old pros will be forced into retirement and those suitable to either role will frequently take it. On top of this,when coaching infrastructure becomes more ubiquitous and robust, talent from outside the retired player pool will develop, just as in pro sports.
Need to speed up the process, do what EG did and break a good player's arm. Now you have coach.
The only way a coach will ever be truly viable in dota2 is when a drafter is the coach. Coach can also calls shots and pause 5 times for 30 seconds (with autoloss when game is unplayable), its the strategical specialist or ops but most of the time not a player on the squad.
On February 07 2015 08:57 govie wrote: The only way a coach will ever be truly viable in dota2 is when a drafter is the coach. Coach can also calls shots and pause 5 times for 30 seconds (with autoloss when game is unplayable), its the strategical specialist or ops.
Nonsense. There is plenty of work for coaches to do without being in the booth at all.
On February 07 2015 08:57 govie wrote: The only way a coach will ever be truly viable in dota2 is when a drafter is the coach. Coach can also calls shots and pause 5 times for 30 seconds (with autoloss when game is unplayable), its the strategical specialist or ops.
Nonsense. There is plenty of work for coaches to do without being in the booth at all.
Those are trainers, as in other competative sports they have trainers and coaches. A coach is the shotcaller during a game, and a trainer makes people and/or the team better outside actual progames (mostly with practise and teaching them stuff).
On February 07 2015 08:57 govie wrote: The only way a coach will ever be truly viable in dota2 is when a drafter is the coach. Coach can also calls shots and pause 5 times for 30 seconds (with autoloss when game is unplayable), its the strategical specialist or ops.
Nonsense. There is plenty of work for coaches to do without being in the booth at all.
Those are trainers, as in other competative sports they have trainers and coaches. A coach is the shotcaller during a game, and a trainer makes people and/or the team better outside actual progames (mostly with practise and teaching them stuff).
Tennis has coaches, and they're banned from the court during all of the big tournaments.
On February 07 2015 08:57 govie wrote: The only way a coach will ever be truly viable in dota2 is when a drafter is the coach. Coach can also calls shots and pause 5 times for 30 seconds (with autoloss when game is unplayable), its the strategical specialist or ops.
Nonsense. There is plenty of work for coaches to do without being in the booth at all.
Those are trainers, as in other competative sports they have trainers and coaches. A coach is the shotcaller during a game, and a trainer makes people and/or the team better outside actual progames (mostly with practise and teaching them stuff).
You have a really narrow view of sports dude, I recommend you stop.
The team infrastructure doesn't exist in dota because the organisations need the players more than the reverse.
In a more mature sport, fans cheer for the team, team management controls the brand and the roster, and coaches have actual power because it's possible to discipline players without triggering a dramageddon. If players have issues with their teammates or their management they suck it up and do what they're paid to do, or they spend a season on the bench.
In dota, the players pick their teams, their internal angst destroys those teams over and over, and the fans just follow their favourites around. Unless that eventually changes, the same shit will keep happening.
On February 07 2015 09:21 Belisarius wrote: The team infrastructure doesn't exist in dota because the organisations need the players more than the reverse.
In a more mature sport, fans cheer for the team, team management controls the brand and the roster, and coaches have actual power because it's possible to discipline players without triggering a dramageddon. If players have issues with their teammates or their management they suck it up and do what they're paid to do, or they spend a season on the bench.
In dota, the players pick their teams, their internal angst destroys those teams over and over, and the fans just follow their favourites around. Unless that eventually changes, the same shit will keep happening.
Pretty much this. On top of that teams don't actually make all that much money and if they tell players that their salaries or prize winnings will take a cut to hire extra backroom staff, there'd be even more drama and complaints about that.
EPT
