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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:00 Bisu-Fan wrote: i'm so mad that navi had to leave on that note... like seriously wtf As Dendi said in his interview, they got what they deserved. Can't deny it. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On August 09 2016 13:10 DucK- wrote: Navi thrash team. Time to leave TI You're overstating it, they are not even nearly as bad. But yeah, that draft was stupid. Early-game focused lineups simply do not work in modern Dota, thanks to the rubber-band mechanics. Oh well, guess I can save some time on watching the game I stopped liking long ago and instead spend it on things that are useful or actually entertaining. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:03 MyrMindservant wrote: You're overstating it, they are not even nearly as bad. But yeah, that draft was stupid. Early-game focused lineups simply do not work in modern Dota, thanks to the rubber-band mechanics. Oh well, guess I can save some time on watching the game I stopped liking long ago and instead spend it on things that are useful or actually entertaining. Rubberband had 0 to do with that game though. Na'vi drafted snowball and got outplayed pretty much. Teams like Liquid and OG just stylistically are kryptonite matchups. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:04 Rebs wrote: Rubberband had 0 to do with that game though. Na'vi drafted snowball and got outplayed pretty much. Teams like Liquid and OG just stylistically are kryptonite matchups. Letting Naga through was the problem. If Na'Vi knew they were going to do this early game centric line-ups they are known for, you cannot let a hero like Naga that can just stall like crazy. Not to mention NP against TL's line-up was just stupid. NP doesn't do anything once Naga gets farmed enough. They deserved to lose that game with that lineup. Every time they play OG or TL they keep doing this dumb lineups and lose and people wonder why they keep losing. I hate Bo1s but Na'Vi and Secret deserved to lose today. EE's decision making was beyond stupid and Na'Vi's lineup, in a Bo1 no less was not acceptable. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:03 MyrMindservant wrote: You're overstating it, they are not even nearly as bad. But yeah, that draft was stupid. Early-game focused lineups simply do not work in modern Dota, thanks to the rubber-band mechanics. Oh well, guess I can save some time on watching the game I stopped liking long ago and instead spend it on things that are useful or actually entertaining. It was him trying to reverse jinx if you read Duck's earlier comments. So who do we want to get? I think Ditya Ra needs to go. Other players have stepped up, but never really notice a good impact from him. | ||
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pellejohnson
United States1931 Posts
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:04 Rebs wrote: Rubberband had 0 to do with that game though. Na'vi drafted snowball and got outplayed pretty much. Teams like Liquid and OG just stylistically are kryptonite matchups. Nope, it had everything to do with that game. It has heavy impact on absolutely every game, if only due to its psychological effect. Teams are afraid to take risks, afraid to fight even when they can actually win, afraid to leverage their temporary advantages. Just look at Secret vs LGD series we had earlier. Secret got completely outclassed during the earlier stages of the game, they should have been dead before the 30 min mark, but rubberband almost gifted them the win. You say that Na'Vi got outplayed, and it is true to a degree, but it wouldn't work like that without additional "comeback" gold and experience that Liquid got during trades. And Na'Vi would also play much more confidently if there were no rubberband. Ultimately, they lost it right on the draft stage, simply because you should never expect to win early in modern Dota. It can happen sometimes, but relying on it is just foolish. | ||
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Archeon
3262 Posts
@game: The deciding fight at minute 11 was actually lost due to rubberband, they traded equally in terms of positions and got 1200 gold less. Btw I think song was a bigger factor that game than the entire splitpush shenanigans. Illusions allowed Liquid more farm and map control than they'd have otherwise, but song really turned those fights, great performance from Matumbaman. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:04 Rebs wrote: Rubberband had 0 to do with that game though. Na'vi drafted snowball and got outplayed pretty much. Teams like Liquid and OG just stylistically are kryptonite matchups. yeah think so too. Since I wanted Liquid to win I was really happy that they're at least against Navi when they ended up in the LB just because Liquid and OG perform so damn well against them every time. Even if I'd consider most other teams in the LB worse, I felt like Navi would be the easier opponent for Liquid today. That being said, still sad to see Navi go out. I never really was a big Navi fan but I do like this version and rooted for them whenver possible. Shitty situation but I'm hoping they're staying together or at least mostly together. They performed really well ahead of TI for a while and most people predicted them somewhere in the middle of the final rankings for a reason. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:13 the bear jew wrote: It was him trying to reverse jinx if you read Duck's earlier comments. So who do we want to get? I think Ditya Ra needs to go. Other players have stepped up, but never really notice a good impact from him. Ah, so that's how it is. And I think the same about possible changes. If anyone has to be replaced, then Ditya Ra is the first candidate. He wasn't particularly bad, but being "ok" is not enough at this level of play. | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:24 MyrMindservant wrote: Nope, it had everything to do with that game. It has heavy impact on absolutely every game, if only due to its psychological effect. Teams are afraid to take risks, afraid to fight even when they can actually win, afraid to leverage their temporary advantages. Just look at Secret vs LGD series we had earlier. Secret got completely outclassed during the earlier stages of the game, they should have been dead before the 30 min mark, but rubberband almost gifted them the win. You say that Na'Vi got outplayed, and it is true to a degree, but it wouldn't work like that without additional "comeback" gold and experience that Liquid got during trades. And Na'Vi would also play much more confidently if there were no rubberband. Ultimately, they lost it right on the draft stage, simply because you should never expect to win early in modern Dota. It can happen sometimes, but relying on it is just foolish. so your argument is just salty magical thinking? not the time-tested Naga press R (+ shadow demon disrupt) disengage strat that negated all of navi's initiation (i.e. chronos)? Not the fact that the axe snowballed w/o dying once (and hard counters oracle ult) and Navi drafted no hard disable outside of the aforementioned countered chronos to stop him? Not the fact that liquid had a bounty hunter? Not the fact that in addition to disengaging with naga, reengaging with axe, dp could sit behind those two with ghosts? Really? | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:24 MyrMindservant wrote: Nope, it had everything to do with that game. It has heavy impact on absolutely every game, if only due to its psychological effect. Teams are afraid to take risks, afraid to fight even when they can actually win, afraid to leverage their temporary advantages. Just look at Secret vs LGD series we had earlier. Secret got completely outclassed during the earlier stages of the game, they should have been dead before the 30 min mark, but rubberband almost gifted them the win. You say that Na'Vi got outplayed, and it is true to a degree, but it wouldn't work like that without additional "comeback" gold and experience that Liquid got during trades. And Na'Vi would also play much more confidently if there were no rubberband. Ultimately, they lost it right on the draft stage, simply because you should never expect to win early in modern Dota. It can happen sometimes, but relying on it is just foolish. You are wrong, NaVi had a 1k/2k lead at minute 10 or something, then it was all Liquid. There was no rubberband there. Pschologically? Maybe, but it had nothing to do with Dendi ullting and THEN blinking in for a scream all by himself to end up cought with no buyback, same with Ditya Ra trying to defend racks with autos alone against 5 heroes. They lost it themselves. They let the naga through, and even if there could have been able to catch her with chrono shadow demon could have saved her while axe disrupted the fight and prophet made them run for their lives.. It was a deserved loss from the draft and an outplay on top of that. They all did well in lane phase but after that they always lose to the opponent grouping as five. We all gotta accept that NaVi has to change slightly their playstyle or at least expand it, they always go for those pick up/heavy teamfighting lineups which work against T2 teams, but Liquid and OG demonstrated it is useless. You can say they beat Wings, but chinese teams are different. They can gladly keep their playstyle but only against those who fall for it, for the others they have to find a workaround. On August 09 2016 14:24 Blackfeather wrote: Considering that they were trash 6 months ago and were handled as a top 8 team before ti (and let's be honest, ti results have been all over the place), I really hope that they stick together. They are still very shaky and underperformed, they still have a lot room to grow. @game: The deciding fight at minute 11 was actually lost due to rubberband, they traded equally in terms of positions and got 1200 gold less. Btw I think song was a bigger factor that game than the entire splitpush shenanigans. Illusions allowed Liquid more farm and map control than they'd have otherwise, but song really turned those fights, great performance from Matumbaman. I wouldn't change anyone. They have what it takes to be at the top, maybe not the best but at least Liquid level. Liquid was pretty normal from the start and only after a year or so they began to show something. They have to stick together and work on the problems, I believe in them and I don't think there is any other CIS player that can take anyone's place and take the team to another level while keeping cohesion, unless they find another GeneRaL or something. @game: I think that was due to 3xTrack kills | ||
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Archeon
3262 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:44 Racket wrote: You are wrong, NaVi had a 1k/2k lead at minute 10 or something, then it was all Liquid. There was no rubberband there. Pschologically? Maybe, but it had nothing to do with Dendi ullting and THEN blinking in for a scream all by himself to end up cought with no buyback, same with Ditya Ra trying to defend racks with autos alone against 5 heroes. They lost it themselves. They let the naga through, and even if there could have been able to catch her with chrono shadow demon could have saved her while axe disrupted the fight and prophet made them run for their lives.. It was a deserved loss from the draft and an outplay on top of that. They all did well in lane phase but after that they always lose to the opponent grouping as five. We all gotta accept that NaVi has to change slightly their playstyle or at least expand it, they always go for those pick up/heavy teamfighting lineups which work against T2 teams, but Liquid and OG demonstrated it is useless. You can say they beat Wings, but chinese teams are different. They can gladly keep their playstyle but only against those who fall for, for the others they have to find a workaround. I wouldn't change anyone. They have what it takes to be at the top, maybe not the best but at least Liquid level. Liquid was pretty normal from the start and only after a year or so they began to show something. They have to stick together and work on the problems, I believe in them and I don't think there is any other CIS player that can take anyone's place and take the team to another level while keeping cohesion, unless they find another GeneRaL or something. @game: I think that was due to 3xTrack kills @game true, I always seem to forget those <.< I think there are some CIS players who perform better, but chemistry is a big factor and atm I think everyone in their team is top 3 CIS in their position. And they are mostly young and relatively inexperienced and have grown a lot already compared to half a year ago. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:03 MyrMindservant wrote: You're overstating it, they are not even nearly as bad. But yeah, that draft was stupid. Early-game focused lineups simply do not work in modern Dota, thanks to the rubber-band mechanics. Oh well, guess I can save some time on watching the game I stopped liking long ago and instead spend it on things that are useful or actually entertaining. Naw. Find my earlier post about being negative. Didn't work this time though | ||
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Racket
3023 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:51 Blackfeather wrote: @game true, I always seem to forget those <.< I think there are some CIS players who perform better, but chemistry is a big factor and atm I think everyone in their team is top 3 CIS in their position. And they are mostly young and relatively inexperienced and have grown a lot already compared to half a year ago. Exactly. Stick together is the way to go! On August 09 2016 14:58 DucK- wrote: Naw. Find my earlier post about being negative. Didn't work this time though You have strong feelings Duck-, I would give you a hug. Lets hope for a better year after TI. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On August 09 2016 14:44 Racket wrote: You are wrong, NaVi had a 1k/2k lead at minute 10 or something, then it was all Liquid. There was no rubberband there. Pschologically? Maybe, but it had nothing to do with Dendi ullting and THEN blinking in for a scream all by himself to end up cought with no buyback, same with Ditya Ra trying to defend racks with autos alone against 5 heroes. They lost it themselves. They let the naga through, and even if there could have been able to catch her with chrono shadow demon could have saved her while axe disrupted the fight and prophet made them run for their lives.. I do not deny that they lost it themselves. Their draft was simply worse, considering the state of the game nowadays. But saying that there was no rubberband there is simply disingenuous. Rubberband is part of the game. Every single hero kill gives additional "comeback" gold and exp if your team is behind. And one of the teams is always behind, so it affects every game. Psychological impact is also way larger than most people think. However, I want to add that those mistakes you mentioned didn't matter all that much. They have already lost at that point and it would end all the same even if Na'Vi didn't make them. Regarding roster changes, I think that either is fine. Looking at all games they played recently, they did relatively decent and probably still have some room for improvement so sticking together is fine. Making minor changes should be fine as well in my opinion. It all depends on their team chemistry, attitudes and communication, i.e. stuff that we can't know for sure. On August 09 2016 14:36 trifecta wrote: so your argument is just salty magical thinking? I don't engage in discussions with people that use silly attacks like calling their opponent "salty". On August 09 2016 14:58 DucK- wrote: Naw. Find my earlier post about being negative. Didn't work this time though Yeah, I got it already after seeing post above by the bear jew. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On August 09 2016 15:26 MyrMindservant wrote: I do not deny that they lost it themselves. Their draft was simply worse, considering the state of the game nowadays. But saying that there was no rubberband there is simply disingenuous. Rubberband is part of the game. Every single hero kill gives additional "comeback" gold and exp if your team is behind. And one of the teams is always behind, so it affects every game. Psychological impact is also way larger than most people think. . Im not going to bother explaining it to you because people have tried and it doesnt seem to get through, so lets just agree to disagree on this purported effect of "rubberband" in the game. FYI the reason Secret hung around so long wasnt really because of rubber band either, Rubber band isnt really the thing it used to be. Hasnt been for a while. This is like Azarkon level of doubling down on stupidity that is obvious to everyone as incorrect. | ||
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Xurr
Germany313 Posts
On August 09 2016 15:34 Rebs wrote: Im not going to bother explaining it to you because people have tried and it doesnt seem to get through, so lets just agree to disagree on this purported effect of "rubberband" in the game. FYI the reason Secret hung around so long wasnt really because of rubber band either, Rubber band isnt really the thing it used to be. Hasnt been for a while. This is like Azarkon level of doubling down on stupidity that is obvious to everyone as incorrect. Seems that "the rubberband" is "the patriarchy" of dota now. Navi never had a chance, the rubberband was always gonna get them. So teams are scared to fight because of the rubberband? Never mind that we have brawlers like Wings and Mvp. Liquid won because of the rubberband? Never mind that they were at most 1.5k behind and had BH. | ||
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