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On August 09 2016 21:04 Racket wrote:
Most of what you say is right but the choices GeneRaL made were due to the needed push/depush. The same goes for Dendi. They knew they had to team fight often and be able to push/depush Naga, I guess they thought the same as with OG could happen. I would have approached the itemization differently: instead of going depush I would have bought at least two Euls to prevent/reduce the disruption caused by Axe and Naga. If Naga would have been out of the fight for at least 3 seconds they could have easily burst one core or both supports, without both supports the other three either run or end up losing more than they gain.
What they actually did was try to burst them and they weren't able to either due to Axe's call, Naga's song or SD's disrupt. They could have outplayed Liquid with the right approach.
Euls would have been the way to go yeah. Orchid build from NP would haven been good as well imo. 1 eul and 1 orchid would have allowed them to take team fights. General needed Manta/BKB, the threat of silence forced him to use Chrono in bad moments or on the wrong targets, towards the late game he got silenced and died 1-2 times. Their itemization didnt allow them to keep the pressure up, so they caved in and tried to outfarm them ... Thats all fine, but NaVi really dont know how to use the map effectively and farm up quickly, nor do they have map awareness like some teams do to avoid pick offs.
In the group stages this was happening very often and besides that Drow tesla game, I dont think they ever out farmed their opponents and won late after a bad mid game. Its like they are trying to play 2 styles: aggressive style and farming style in 1 game, but they cave in too easily and they cant farm up quickly. They should look at MVP, even though they die and loose team fights they are relentless and keep pressuring their opponents, this is what NaVi should do, but if they lack the balls for it, then they shouldn't pick such lineups.
Just read Gevna's post, he sums it up perfectly, thats how I see it as well.
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On August 09 2016 21:37 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2016 21:22 Gevna wrote:On August 09 2016 20:04 Racket wrote:On August 09 2016 19:43 DucK- wrote:
Alright finally had the time to write my thoughts.
We deserve last place. In manila, we did everything perfect and got shit on by the brackets. That was harsh, undeserved, but that's dota. Here in TI, we were just not good enough. Didn't show up. We shouldn't have loss against escape and tnc. That would have left us in the upper bracket, or at the very least allow us to choose VGR, who are easy opponents. Alliance should have been beaten. What's up with brew and whats up with lesh ban. And then we pick single core lineups or a team with zero frontline. Bad drafts, bad preparation, bad execution.
Moving on, the team can continue to stick. I think the roster can achieve results and improve over time. We have seen them grown. They have way more strategies now, and could learn more. But the motivation may be lacking, one more year of trying...
I would prefer a small change. Ditya has had his opportunities. But in both manila and ti, he was non existent. He is not playing as solid as he should. His plays are laughable. He is the guy meant to secure our late game and be the lifeline when the +4 fail to do their davai thing. But he has not been able to do so, and has not been able to davai in sync with us.
Ditya should be replaced, and I'd like resolution or ramzes. Both players know how to be aggressive and space create. Both can revert to conservative solid carrying if necessary. Some say silent, but I think he is also a choker. Both players have good hero pools, which means we can have good flexibility in drafts.
The rest are fine. Artstyle is needed to hold the team together. Plus he is actually no longer the weakest link. He played the best in fact. Dendi is the heart of navi. Sonneiko is someone we should have faith in. General has earned his place with brilliant performances, sometimes single handily winning us games.
But oh well. I just wished we didn't get knocked out like that. Feeling quite bitter actually because we were capable of so much more.
And no to puppey please. Guy has embraced the more modern strategic side of dota. I prefer our navi davai style. Those Koreans though, they make our davai look so cowardly. I agree /Fistbump On top of that they beat NaVi's nemesis. Ditya Ra is so transparent everygame, he brings nothing interesting to the team and always looks completely out of sync. Replacing Hvost by him was such an awful decision. Well at least his hero pool was good compared to Hvost. Except he plays shit like safelane Furion instead of heroes that can actually win games.
Yeah, so he can probably tp early to help other lanes such as mid (Fata was like 20% hp for 2 mins, I'm pretty sure they could have killed fata at some point with a furion tp) or his offlane. Artstyle was pressuring, just go, tp and take the tower. When General chronos 3 liquid heroes, save Artstyle, kill sd, where was Ditya Ra ?
Now of course I can't be sure it's his decision to not tp, might be a team's decision. But I remember an interview where he said that Navi let him make the decision as a carry to join a fight or not.
Now choking is no excuse, I don't think anybody cares if x player is the best in the world during scrims. I loved Hvost in Navi because he brought stability to the team. You could abandon him, he would still get a lot of farm. He has always been a beast at TI, never crumbled under pressure. You could alway rely on him as a last resort, because at least he will get farm. And he never hesitated to follow the calls of his team, even the most retarded ones.
Well whatever. Ditya Ra is not to blame anyway because Navi was failing as a team. But holy shit, you're not going to win a TI with Ditya Ra as a carry.
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Ok just because artstyle's draft is getting a lot of flag:
Honestly I think their draft made perfectly sense. Every close match against tl and og looks the same: They win the early game, OG and Liquid start to dodge fights, splitpush and out-efficiency them, get their first few major items and start fighting and trade gold until they win a fight (usually the second or third fight). That's usually when Navi goes on tilt/gets outrotated and quickly looses their gold advantage.
Every match that isn't a one-sided stomp between them gets decided between the 25 and 35 minute mark, because Navi plays terrible against more solid teams once they are behind.
Add to that that imo Navi's strongest point is actually their support duo. Their most dominant games are often heavily carried by Sonneiko and Artstyle during the laning stage, then general starts snowballing out of control with his farm advantage and wins them the teamfights. If Dendi and Ditya then don't drop the ball they win by 20-25 minutes in those games.
So it makes perfectly sense to actually go for that timing in a best of one. They died a few times too many early on, but it might be their best shot and could probably have worked.
Also last time I could look up stats on datdota, Ditya was something like 9:4 on prophet.
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On August 09 2016 22:10 Gevna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2016 21:37 Salazarz wrote:On August 09 2016 21:22 Gevna wrote:On August 09 2016 20:04 Racket wrote:On August 09 2016 19:43 DucK- wrote:
Alright finally had the time to write my thoughts.
We deserve last place. In manila, we did everything perfect and got shit on by the brackets. That was harsh, undeserved, but that's dota. Here in TI, we were just not good enough. Didn't show up. We shouldn't have loss against escape and tnc. That would have left us in the upper bracket, or at the very least allow us to choose VGR, who are easy opponents. Alliance should have been beaten. What's up with brew and whats up with lesh ban. And then we pick single core lineups or a team with zero frontline. Bad drafts, bad preparation, bad execution.
Moving on, the team can continue to stick. I think the roster can achieve results and improve over time. We have seen them grown. They have way more strategies now, and could learn more. But the motivation may be lacking, one more year of trying...
I would prefer a small change. Ditya has had his opportunities. But in both manila and ti, he was non existent. He is not playing as solid as he should. His plays are laughable. He is the guy meant to secure our late game and be the lifeline when the +4 fail to do their davai thing. But he has not been able to do so, and has not been able to davai in sync with us.
Ditya should be replaced, and I'd like resolution or ramzes. Both players know how to be aggressive and space create. Both can revert to conservative solid carrying if necessary. Some say silent, but I think he is also a choker. Both players have good hero pools, which means we can have good flexibility in drafts.
The rest are fine. Artstyle is needed to hold the team together. Plus he is actually no longer the weakest link. He played the best in fact. Dendi is the heart of navi. Sonneiko is someone we should have faith in. General has earned his place with brilliant performances, sometimes single handily winning us games.
But oh well. I just wished we didn't get knocked out like that. Feeling quite bitter actually because we were capable of so much more.
And no to puppey please. Guy has embraced the more modern strategic side of dota. I prefer our navi davai style. Those Koreans though, they make our davai look so cowardly. I agree /Fistbump On top of that they beat NaVi's nemesis. Ditya Ra is so transparent everygame, he brings nothing interesting to the team and always looks completely out of sync. Replacing Hvost by him was such an awful decision. Well at least his hero pool was good compared to Hvost. Except he plays shit like safelane Furion instead of heroes that can actually win games. Yeah, so he can probably tp early to help other lanes such as mid (Fata was like 20% hp for 2 mins, I'm pretty sure they could have killed fata at some point with a furion tp) or his offlane. Artstyle was pressuring, just go, tp and take the tower. When General chronos 3 liquid heroes, save Artstyle, kill sd, where was Ditya Ra ? Now of course I can't be sure it's his decision to not tp, might be a team's decision. But I remember an interview where he said that Navi let him make the decision as a carry to join a fight or not. Now choking is no excuse, I don't think anybody cares if x player is the best in the world during scrims. I loved Hvost in Navi because he brought stability to the team. You could abandon him, he would still get a lot of farm. He has always been a beast at TI, never crumbled under pressure. You could alway rely on him as a last resort, because at least he will get farm. And he never hesitated to follow the calls of his team, even the most retarded ones. Well whatever. Ditya Ra is not to blame anyway because Navi was failing as a team. But holy shit, you're not going to win a TI with Ditya Ra as a carry.
NaVi can't win TI, nor with this Ditya Ra neither with TI3-TI5 Xboct, that is for sure. I loved Xboct, but he refused to adapt to the new Dota and I let go of him, Dendi on the other hand showed attitude and willingness to adapt. I would take Xboct back any day if I was sure he is going to take the path to adaptation. But I have more faith in Ditya Ra gaining confidence and beginning to deliver than Xboct becoming a carry of 2015+ era.
On August 09 2016 22:54 Blackfeather wrote:
Ok just because artstyle's draft is getting a lot of flag:
Honestly I think their draft made perfectly sense. Every close match against tl and og looks the same: They win the early game, OG and Liquid start to dodge fights, splitpush and out-efficiency them, get their first few major items and start fighting and trade gold until they win a fight (usually the second or third fight). That's usually when Navi goes on tilt/gets outrotated and quickly looses their gold advantage.
Every match that isn't a one-sided stomp between them gets decided between the 25 and 35 minute mark, because Navi plays terrible against more solid teams once they are behind.
Add to that that imo Navi's strongest point is actually their support duo. Their most dominant games are often heavily carried by Sonneiko and Artstyle during the laning stage, then general starts snowballing out of control with his farm advantage and wins them the teamfights. If Dendi and Ditya then don't drop the ball they win by 20-25 minutes in those games.
So it makes perfectly sense to actually go for that timing in a best of one.
We saw that strategy working quite fine, they know how to execute it and they can try 1000 times against OG/Liquid, BUT the only ones that try always the same thing every time expecting different results are the crazy ones.
I myself am no pro player, I suck bad but if I were one I would try something different at least against them, I keep what works against Wings because I wanna beat them but as long as that doesn't work against OG why would I try time after time?
NaVi grew a lot from Manila to TI, they kept growing but in SL they found something that felt really good (IO+SK) and forgotten what they had before in return. Solely because of that they gave such an awful showing...
For instance, I don't know why they stopped their Furion+IO+Tinker+placeholder strat, it was enjoyable.
If they had done what they were doing before SL, they would have done way better in groups. That SL confidence boost was sadly counterproductive.
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Yeah don't get me wrong, TL was ready and pretty much counterdrafted what navi tried to do. Still it could have worked and I don't think I've seen navi ever win midgame against og and tl.
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On August 10 2016 00:07 Blackfeather wrote:
Yeah don't get me wrong, TL was ready and pretty much counterdrafted what navi tried to do. Still it could have worked and I don't think I've seen navi ever win midgame against og and tl.
Not after OG resurgence. I still remeber that Magnus ult into ES SoF into insta GG, oh my!
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I knew that at the first sign of weakness gevna would come here to say that xboct is the greatest player that ever played dota and that he should be back on the team
I mean, we should obviously bring back a player that was kicked from TEAM SPIRIT ROFL
i dont think ditya ra is either TI material, but xboct is not even qualifiers material nowadays, like i said a few pages ago, if Xboct was the same as he was 3 years ago, then please do whatever you can to get him back, but reality is that he sucks nowadays and could not even perform on a team that has nothing to lose.
And just like i also said, Navi is playing with the best they can from the pool of CIS players right now, bar ramzesss and resolut1on.
I would not be surprised if LGD beats DC, navi would go 100% for resolut1on, hopefully he wants to join AND that he misses his gf and family lol
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On August 10 2016 03:41 Faruko wrote:
I knew that at the first sign of weakness gevna would come here to say that xboct is the greatest player that ever played dota and that he should be back on the team
I mean, we should obviously bring back a player that was kicked from TEAM SPIRIT ROFL
i dont think ditya ra is either TI material, but xboct is not even qualifiers material nowadays, like i said a few pages ago, if Xboct was the same as he was 3 years ago, then please do whatever you can to get him back, but reality is that he sucks nowadays and could not even perform on a team that has nothing to lose.
And just like i also said, Navi is playing with the best they can from the pool of CIS players right now, bar ramzesss and resolut1on.
I would not be surprised if LGD beats DC, navi would go 100% for resolut1on, hopefully he wants to join AND that he misses his gf and family lol
Not to claim that Xboct is best or anything, but how do you know whether he is any good nowadays or not? Haven't really been many games of his to judge, and the few games that you could find are all pretty clowny in a number of ways for such a judgement to be rather difficult. You could make a pretty solid case for him being the best and most consistent player on Na'Vi during their period of shuffles; the few games that Na'Vi did win during that period were usually off the back of him carrying the game, and very few losses were directly on him.
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Well for once
he is not even playing the game at the pro level, and we he did made the "comeback" with team spirit he was incredibly lacking, i watched those games
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The comparison between Hvost and Ditya is a bit weird to make. Xvost in his prime was the best carry, Ditya in his current form is not even half of that of Hvost and to be honest I dont even see potential in him to ever reach the level Xvost was at in his prime, unless he completely changes his mentality. Comparing current Hvost to Ditya? Dunno, Hvost isnt the same player anymore, its obvious that all the bullshit the community threw at him got to him, Im not even sure if he can bounce back from that. Looking at Demon at this TI and especially Artstyle who got so much hate last year, perhaps Hvost can do the same, but dunno, its hard to say.
The way I see it, Xvost had incredible skill and fearlessness which made him scary, his hero pool was limited, but on the other hand he excelled at the heroes he did play. The one thing which annoyed me the most about him is that he simply refused to play certain heroes (Morph, Lone) and towards the end of his NaVi days he was getting picked off frequently. He had good synergy with Smile who complemented him in a way that Kuro and Ppy never did, the supports were passive and Hvost was aggressive, so they never clicked.
Ditya is pretty much the opposite: he has a wide hero pool, plays whatever is given to him, but doesnt really excel at any of them, except Huskar, but who the hell cant play Huskar anyways. He isnt scary. They do have 1 thing in common: both of them get picked off frequently. Another difference (a reversal actually) is that Sonneiko and Artstyle are aggressive like Smile but Ditya is passive and they dont really click too well.
Perhaps an argument can be made that Hvost with the current support duo will do good, but thats up for debate. Or perhaps the supports can play around Ditya's style or Ditya can amp up his aggressiveness to match his supports. Dunno, maybe im just talking nonsense here lol.
I never sided with the Hvost haters, he obviously had issues, but NaVi as a whole were bad during that time and it never made sense to me to blame one person when the team just wasn't on the same page. That's why I cant take the argument about Hvost's form in Team Spirit seriously, TS was just super bad on so many levels.
I see the same trend now, people putting the blame on one person, when in reality they all sucked except Artstyle and Sonneiko when he wasnt making bad drafts. In fact when you think about it, not much has changed in NaVi since TI5. Replacing Ditya might solve problems short term, just like replacing Hvost solved the problem short term, but those problems have resurfaced again leading to another bad TI. So its quite obvious that the problems in NaVi go beyond their carry player, Hvost already suffered for it, should Ditya suffer too? I think that wouldnt be the best option for them and certainly not for Ditya. Perhaps sticking together for another 6 months and working hard on ironing out all of their problems could bring them back to their former glory. If after that time they show no progress, then they can think about replacements, but I think for now it would be better for them to stick together for a little while longer.
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Dunno, it's never just one player, but after they exchanged xboct they suddenly started rising again, so he definitely was part of the problem.
I also don't agree to the defensive vs aggressive mentality. Honestly I by far prefer a defensive carry with aggressive supports, let your sups and offlaner create space early on and let the carry farm and take over later on. It's a lot less prone to falling flat once the enemies punish your aggression than all your players being aggressive. You need a defensive stable anchor nowadays and Ditya provides that.
Also saying that they are in a similar situation as in ti5 is ridiculous. They were handled as a top 8, maybe top 6 team before ti, won the lan immediately beforehand, got a direct invite and missed the upper bracket by 2 wins (going 6:8) in a fairly strong group and lost against a team in a bo1 that is top3 material but played an underwhelming group stage. In ti5 they went 3:11 ending up last in a fairly weak group and had been declining beforehand since forever. It was a surprise that they even survived a fairly weak qualifier beforehand.
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On August 10 2016 10:38 Blackfeather wrote:
Dunno, it's never just one player, but after they exchanged xboct they suddenly started rising again, so he definitely was part of the problem.
I also don't agree to the defensive vs aggressive mentality. Honestly I by far prefer a defensive carry with aggressive supports, let your sups and offlaner create space early on and let the carry farm and take over later on. It's a lot less prone to falling flat once the enemies punish your aggression than all your players being aggressive. You need a defensive stable anchor nowadays and Ditya provides that.
Also saying that they are in a similar situation as in ti5 is ridiculous. They were handled as a top 8, maybe top 6 team before ti, won the lan immediately beforehand, missed the upper bracket by 2 wins (going 6:8) in a fairly strong group and lost against a team in a bo1 that is top3 material but played an underwhelming group stage. In ti5 they went 3:11 ended up last in a fairly weak group and had been declining beforehand since forever.
Doesn't make it any less disappointing. They could of placed a lot higher. They definetely got complacent, got sloppy, other teams were more under prepared and by the time they got their head in the game, was a little too late. They had to beat the two teams that are very much in their heads.
That said, they 2-0 both Wings who are guaranteed top 6 and LGD who are still alive and advanced farther. So they had potential to go higher, just were too late trying to realize it
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Yeah I'm not saying that they didn't underperform. I just think that they are still at the start of their journey and growth and already in a by far better spot than a year ago.
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LGD losing to a similar illusion swamp that claimed Navi the night before. Naga, SD, PL, Alch, TB all very strong.
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Yeah we might actually see a general illusion nerf (again) or at least a radiance nerf and possibly a separate tb nerf.
If watching Naga wasn't so much cancer I wouldn't care that much. I don't really mind tb or pl tbh in terms of games they create.
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Looks like they may stay together. I'm OK with it too. We can see them grow even more since day 1.
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I would prefer that they stay together, but I wouldn't mind if they pick up Miracle :D Navi is rich and OG just lost.
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I want them to stick together. As long as there is chemistry they can grow. They have what it takes to keep growing.
Extract from Sonneiko's interview:
Your Wyvern was a hero that you have stood out on in the past. In the current meta are there any heroes you enjoy playing and believe to be just as good?
- Talking about the meta of this patch, it's probably Wisp. Although there are other heroes I like to play but the meta is not so kind to them. I like to play Earth Shaker and Rubick in pubs.
Hopefully we will see him play it officially in the future
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re: Xboct -- they didn't suddenly start rising after they ditched Xboct as much as they started rising after they picked up Artstyle, imo. And it's probably fair to assume that right now, Xboct wouldn't be a top tier player, but also not too far fetched to assume that he could catch right back up to his peak form within a few months same way Artstyle did -- the two actually have a lot in common.
The problem about current Na'Vi lineup isn't, in my opinion, about how 'much' they win, their overall winrate isn't that bad etc; but it's troubling that they simply cannot, ever, deal with certain playstyles. They have improved in a number of ways, but they haven't shown the slightest sign of coming up with a way of dealing with teams who split the map and delay games at all, and while that kind of playstyle was a weakness for Na'Vi historically, they never looked as utterly and hopelessly lost against it as they do right now.
Teamliquid played very poorly in this tournament for example, they didn't even play well in their game against Na'Vi; but it was still more than enough to beat them; meanwhile true underdog teams like Tnc or DC or whathaveyou consistently come up with ways to upset stronger opponents.
Na'Vi definitely look better in their wins (although I feel like too many of those come from a couple of drafts their enemies didn't prepare for), but they tend to look as thoroughly defeated as they ever have in their losses. You'd think having a pair of pocket strategies people absolutely have to ban against you is good -- but for Na'Vi in this TI it felt almost like those pocket strategies was all they had.
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Russian Federation3331 Posts
If we must shuffle, id be down to test ramzes the guy is young and such a beast. What if our typing core of general sonneiko and ramzes does really well?
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EPT
