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On August 13 2015 18:41 lolnoty wrote:
just as an aside for people that think EG was wrong to think they won at Slark, VP was probably the best Slark using team in the world for a while, and FNG tweeted during that very game that slark is a bad hero now that doesn't have a place in this meta.
That game was winnable for a long time for CDEC. Pretty late into the game Slark&Lesh were top2 in net worth, and their supporting cast was doing fine compared to EG's. As far as I recall they just barely were late to contest an EG rosh at one point in the late game but they still got rid of the aegis with relative ease, then some time later didn't see that Sumail had a Linkens and took a terrible fight because Slark blew abyssal on the linkens, which forced CDEC into buyouts. Then the game ended a bit later when EG caught them in a very bad spot with a flank.
But of course one pretty good game doesn't mean that Slark is a fantastic hero, and EG were wrong to be confident against it. However, we all saw that the game was very close as PPD said himself so it was hardly over after picks.
On August 13 2015 18:03 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 17:14 DucK- wrote:On August 13 2015 17:00 lolnoty wrote:On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said. well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark? I mean did they know that Shiki's Lesh laning isn't good? Being confident with Ember isn't the same as knowing the enemy plays a meh Lesh. The matchup should have heavily been in Lesh's favour. You could watch the same video that you're saying you disagree with that says they deliberately let them have Lesh because they knew CDEC (aka Shiki) didn't play the hero. So yes, they probably knew CDEC wouldn't be good at laning Lesh I mean if you don't play a hero it naturally follows you aren't as good as players that do in all areas of the game, laning a hero mid vs a world class mid isn't the same as just picking the hero in 5k MMR and just spamming lightning. Shiki and CDEC showed they weren't comfortable laning him since Game 1, why else would they push lesh on an objectively worse position (support) unless they were not confident with shiki vs sumail with it?
Where did PPD even say that they knew CDEC "doesn't play the hero"? What he says in the start of the video is that because it was a bo5, he thought it was worth it to try and give them Lesh to see what they can do with it (CDEC hadn't gotten Lesh in their hands yet). They had some other concerns in the bans, and also leaving both Gyro&Lesh in the pool then guarantees that EG gets at least one of them. But it doesn't seem to me that he was actually overly confident about leaving Lesh in, but obviously when they win game 1 and CDEC wasn't too convincing with the hero EG will continue leaving it in.
In general I think in this series some things are attributed to the draft in a bit silly fashion just because it is PPD and they now won TI. Like in that game3 for example I highly doubt draft is the first thing CDEC is looking at considering how the game went. Even game 1 ended up in EG just walking over CDEC due to EG just playing far better (for example as far as I recall Sumail dominated with Storm against QoP in cs despite getting ganked several times, CDEC had several really bad overextensions, etc.).
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United States47024 Posts
Game 3 was essentially in EG's court from the moment the supports finished Glimmer Cape and Solar Crest. Slark relies heavily on his double nuke magic burst to get kills midgame and stay ahead, and lategame he's simply not a comfortable MKB carrier so it takes way too much time for him to kill someone through Solar, and even more so Solar + Butterfly double evasion.
The strength of Solar Crest puts implicit pressure on any physical damage carry that does exclusively single-target physical damage and cannot comfortably buy MKB.
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On August 14 2015 01:46 TheYango wrote:
Game 3 was essentially in EG's court from the moment the supports finished Glimmer Cape and Solar Crest. Slark relies heavily on his double nuke magic burst to get kills midgame and stay ahead, and lategame he's simply not a comfortable MKB carrier so it takes way too much time for him to kill someone through Solar, and even more so Solar + Butterfly double evasion.
The strength of Solar Crest puts implicit pressure on any physical damage carry that does exclusively single-target physical damage and cannot comfortably buy MKB.
That's the result of how the game went, and not so much from the draft perspective. Watching the game I would have concluded the same, but from the drafting stage, how the game worked out eventually shouldn't have happened. Again I blame shiki for not doing well enough on lesh.
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On August 13 2015 18:03 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 17:14 DucK- wrote:On August 13 2015 17:00 lolnoty wrote:On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said. well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark? I mean did they know that Shiki's Lesh laning isn't good? Being confident with Ember isn't the same as knowing the enemy plays a meh Lesh. The matchup should have heavily been in Lesh's favour. You could watch the same video that you're saying you disagree with that says they deliberately let them have Lesh because they knew CDEC (aka Shiki) didn't play the hero. So yes, they probably knew CDEC wouldn't be good at laning Lesh I mean if you don't play a hero it naturally follows you aren't as good as players that do in all areas of the game, laning a hero mid vs a world class mid isn't the same as just picking the hero in 5k MMR and just spamming lightning. Shiki and CDEC showed they weren't comfortable laning him since Game 1, why else would they push lesh on an objectively worse position (support) unless they were not confident with shiki vs sumail with it?
Maybe you should watch the same video yourself. PPD said cdec did not have the chance to play lesh yet, he wanted to see how they would use the hero, and it was a BO5 which gives them less risk to experiment. More importantly, not banning lesh leaves both gyro and lesh in the pool, thus giving them either heroes.
Nothing is on expecting shiki to suck on lesh. Game 3 was hoping Suma1l would do well on ember, and in the lesh ember matchup context that's being optimistic and not realistic.
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On August 14 2015 16:11 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 18:03 lolnoty wrote:On August 13 2015 17:14 DucK- wrote:On August 13 2015 17:00 lolnoty wrote:On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said. well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark? I mean did they know that Shiki's Lesh laning isn't good? Being confident with Ember isn't the same as knowing the enemy plays a meh Lesh. The matchup should have heavily been in Lesh's favour. You could watch the same video that you're saying you disagree with that says they deliberately let them have Lesh because they knew CDEC (aka Shiki) didn't play the hero. So yes, they probably knew CDEC wouldn't be good at laning Lesh I mean if you don't play a hero it naturally follows you aren't as good as players that do in all areas of the game, laning a hero mid vs a world class mid isn't the same as just picking the hero in 5k MMR and just spamming lightning. Shiki and CDEC showed they weren't comfortable laning him since Game 1, why else would they push lesh on an objectively worse position (support) unless they were not confident with shiki vs sumail with it? Maybe you should watch the same video yourself. PPD said cdec did not have the chance to play lesh yet, he wanted to see how they would use the hero, and it was a BO5 which gives them less risk to experiment. More importantly, not banning lesh leaves both gyro and lesh in the pool, thus giving them either heroes. Nothing is on expecting shiki to suck on lesh. Game 3 was hoping Suma1l would do well on ember, and in the lesh ember matchup context that's being optimistic and not realistic.
you're right that PPD didn't say that. I'm confusing what aui has said on stream after TI with that video.
I specifically said Game 1 shows no confidence in Lesh, which is 100% true. CDEC had the chance to lane Shiki Lesh vs sumail Storm, and instead of going with that which is actually a fine plan, they drafted QoP last for Shiki. Lesh as support that game was really fucking sketchy since that last pick has free reign on a 2nd support. They were overtly choosing to hinder the team's composition to give Shiki a comfortable hero.
I also still maintain that Slark is actually bad right now, which is reason enough for them to have felt confident. If EG was sure they could take the game late which isn't a stretch, what exactly is the hero doing late game that's going to take gyro/ember on?
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Fear's arm is still an issue. If the rumors of bulba as eg's official majors standin is true, would aui, universe, or bulba be the carry for a while? Aui's return to carry
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I would think Bulba wants to form a team of his own. If Fear has to take a break I think they will just look to keep the same roles and recruit some younger carry player in his place. Though of course how tempting the standin spot is depends on how long it would take to recover. If Fear would already be back for the major and you would just be playing in some smaller tournaments before it, it's not as tempting as it would be if you would be guaranteed to actually play the first major.
But the impression I get from that tweet is that Fear isn't really looking to retire, which is good news. Not sure still how bad the arm actually is, can he continue playing if he doesn't get the surgery?
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On August 14 2015 21:44 spudde123 wrote:
I would think Bulba wants to form a team of his own. If Fear has to take a break I think they will just look to keep the same roles and recruit some younger carry player in his place. Though of course how tempting the standin spot is depends on how long it would take to recover. If Fear would already be back for the major and you would just be playing in some smaller tournaments before it, it's not as tempting as it would be if you would be guaranteed to actually play the first major.
But the impression I get from that tweet is that Fear isn't really looking to retire, which is good news. Not sure still how bad the arm actually is, can he continue playing if he doesn't get the surgery?
Well PPD did say they were taking a month break. If the surgery will help, hopefully it has a relatively short recovery time so he will be good to go within a month or so.
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On August 15 2015 02:06 the bear jew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 21:44 spudde123 wrote:
I would think Bulba wants to form a team of his own. If Fear has to take a break I think they will just look to keep the same roles and recruit some younger carry player in his place. Though of course how tempting the standin spot is depends on how long it would take to recover. If Fear would already be back for the major and you would just be playing in some smaller tournaments before it, it's not as tempting as it would be if you would be guaranteed to actually play the first major.
But the impression I get from that tweet is that Fear isn't really looking to retire, which is good news. Not sure still how bad the arm actually is, can he continue playing if he doesn't get the surgery? Well PPD did say they were taking a month break. If the surgery will help, hopefully it has a relatively short recovery time so he will be good to go within a month or so.
Not sure what the operation would be, but a month recovery time seems optimistic? It seems like they would grab a standin for the first Major and allow Fear to recover. The worst case scenario is Fear gets surgery and doesn't take his time to properly recover. I hope he does.
Thankfully I think the 1 position is the easiest to replace in EG, not because Fear is the worst, but because of the way the team operates. As long as they get someone reliable with a decent hero pool, they should stay competitive throughout Fear's absence. It would probably be a great experience for any NA carry to just be a fly on the wall for team discussions and learn from NA veterans.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2015 16:03 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 01:46 TheYango wrote:
Game 3 was essentially in EG's court from the moment the supports finished Glimmer Cape and Solar Crest. Slark relies heavily on his double nuke magic burst to get kills midgame and stay ahead, and lategame he's simply not a comfortable MKB carrier so it takes way too much time for him to kill someone through Solar, and even more so Solar + Butterfly double evasion.
The strength of Solar Crest puts implicit pressure on any physical damage carry that does exclusively single-target physical damage and cannot comfortably buy MKB. That's the result of how the game went, and not so much from the draft perspective. Watching the game I would have concluded the same, but from the drafting stage, how the game worked out eventually shouldn't have happened. Again I blame shiki for not doing well enough on lesh.
A lot of the early game ended up the way it did due to CDEC misjudging the lanes. They TPed Slark top expecting to dodge an aggressive trilane, but EG only intended to 2-1-2 to begin with, resulting in awkward lanes across the board for CDEC.
That they managed to do as well as they did with that start is pretty good, though what really sealed the deal for them was probably the over-commitment on the dive in bot lane (that basically got Aui his items).
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wow ppd sure is cold blooded. having 3 strong egos on one team is not a good idea.
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Well PPD is a ruthless cold blooded killer.
Sorta reminds me of the Patriot's head coach, nobody is safe if he thinks he can do better with someone else.
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On August 15 2015 13:10 ref4 wrote:
wow ppd sure is cold blooded. having 3 strong egos on one team is not a good idea.
sumail's ego isn't the same kind of ego as ppd's and rtz's, he doesn't have strong opinions regarding how the game should be drafted and played from a macro perspective, just how to play his own hero.
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I have never tilted so hard regarding esports drama. Man i hate ppd now. The only reason I see this was needed was
1) Miscommunication from Aui
2) Aui was the least marketable player
3) He was an anime watcher
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EG will do fine, if anything it'll take fear a bit to get back to old form on his 4 heroes. OTOH they have a good rubick player again.
I wonder if PPD will ask fear to practice techies lol
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if you watch the ppd dac interview, it was clearly because aui talked too much, and ppd didn't like that
+ Show Spoiler +
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Should just trust in ppd's judgement, he hasnt made a bad decision so far... i mean when zai and rtz left eg everyone thought eg would die out, and instead they won dac and ti 
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On August 15 2015 13:20 lolnoty wrote:
EG will do fine, if anything it'll take fear a bit to get back to old form on his 4 heroes. OTOH they have a good rubick player again.
I wonder if PPD will ask fear to practice techies lol
Probably depends on how hard Techies gets nerfed.
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On August 15 2015 14:53 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2015 13:20 lolnoty wrote:
EG will do fine, if anything it'll take fear a bit to get back to old form on his 4 heroes. OTOH they have a good rubick player again.
I wonder if PPD will ask fear to practice techies lol Probably depends on how hard Techies gets nerfed.
hopefully aui's TI5 campaign is successful and techies gets screwed as hard as possible
in that case aui actually is the best player ever
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Unfortunately Aui_2000 was viewed as the weakest link in EG's line up. And PPD, or whoever was kicking most likely thought he could get a better player. PPD, Fear, Sumail, and Universe are definitely all in the top 3 players for each of their positions/roles but Aui_2000 is not. However the logic behind EG picking up RTZ is beyond me.
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EPT
