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On August 12 2015 13:24 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Two things about game 3 draft surprised me a lot:
1) The thought that "we kinda felt like we won once we picked the Slark" and
2) That they banned AM instead of PL (and that they didn't pick PL for Aggressif.)
When I watched game 3, Slark was giving them HELL to deal with with their lack of lockdown and how quickly what they had was purged with Dark Pact. I thought if anything their ability to win that game boiled down to some brilliant plays from Universe on Clock turning the fight into a 4v5. I suppose you could argue that AM would be able to bypass that, but still. Moreover, why wouldn't they ban PL? Aggressif is clearly more comfortable on PL.
Slark as a hero peaks early-mid and they could confidentially take this game late. Slark zoned them completely out of their jungle true, but EG also comfortably set up shop in CDEC's jungle for most of the game, so the farm denial is a wash. (edit: also Gyro's ancient farming vs slark's farm rate over a 40-50 minute game is inherently a gigantic farm difference and slark didn't impact it at all)
His problem in a carry vs carry (or 2 carries vs 2 carries) is his snowball potential takes time to start working in fights. You need a good 10 seconds before you're REALLY frightening to the enemy carry by sapping stats, and that's not counting the amount of time he's (the enemy carry) in BKB. So 15 seconds before you're going to be able to snowball down a fight, which is really fucking long compared to a Gyro who peaks at the START of a fight, and an ember who has a higher impact baseline for the entire fight, and can reliably kite out the slark and turn that 10 seconds ramp up time into 20 without a BKB.
The damage from Gyro and Ember vs his team was way too high for Slark to reliably become the snowball machine later on. Slark's dilemma was he didn't want to waste time on the Ember in fights because that just means his team is dead before he gets stats sapped enough for it to scare Ember, and if he goes on (stationary target) Gyro, Gyro just turns on BKB and manfights him while contributing more for the first 10 seconds from Flak and calldown.
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On August 12 2015 13:24 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Two things about game 3 draft surprised me a lot:
1) The thought that "we kinda felt like we won once we picked the Slark" and
2) That they banned AM instead of PL (and that they didn't pick PL for Aggressif.)
When I watched game 3, Slark was giving them HELL to deal with with their lack of lockdown and how quickly what they had was purged with Dark Pact. I thought if anything their ability to win that game boiled down to some brilliant plays from Universe on Clock turning the fight into a 4v5. I suppose you could argue that AM would be able to bypass that, but still. Moreover, why wouldn't they ban PL? Aggressif is clearly more comfortable on PL.
Slark? What game are you talking about?
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On August 12 2015 15:49 lookfirewood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 13:24 Coolsnow7 wrote:
Two things about game 3 draft surprised me a lot:
1) The thought that "we kinda felt like we won once we picked the Slark" and
2) That they banned AM instead of PL (and that they didn't pick PL for Aggressif.)
When I watched game 3, Slark was giving them HELL to deal with with their lack of lockdown and how quickly what they had was purged with Dark Pact. I thought if anything their ability to win that game boiled down to some brilliant plays from Universe on Clock turning the fight into a 4v5. I suppose you could argue that AM would be able to bypass that, but still. Moreover, why wouldn't they ban PL? Aggressif is clearly more comfortable on PL. Slark? What game are you talking about?
The game where CDEC drafted a slark in game 3 and showed some signs of life followed by the destruction of their morale leaving them unable to understand why they were really losing in game 4.
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Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark.
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On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark.
Shifting topic slightly but where would the community rank Sumail's ember? I would probably put his behind Maybe's with TC and Smash also being amazing players with the hero so is 4th in the world seem fair?
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On August 12 2015 17:56 Pomza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark. Shifting topic slightly but where would the community rank Sumail's ember? I would probably put his behind Maybe's with TC and Smash also being amazing players with the hero so is 4th in the world seem fair?
For all the hate Ferrari gets, that guy is still the number 1 ember in my books. He's had so many sick games on Ember that were far more impressive than what sumail did. (not that sumail did bad, but I love me some ferrari ember)
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On August 12 2015 17:56 Pomza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark. Shifting topic slightly but where would the community rank Sumail's ember? I would probably put his behind Maybe's with TC and Smash also being amazing players with the hero so is 4th in the world seem fair?
Sing officially not a player now.
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On August 12 2015 17:56 Pomza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark. Shifting topic slightly but where would the community rank Sumail's ember? I would probably put his behind Maybe's with TC and Smash also being amazing players with the hero so is 4th in the world seem fair?
Best Western Ember by far. Noone in Europe or the Western Hemisphere comes close, even Smash.
Ferrari imo plays a better Ember but his style of Ember play is about defense, being elsuive and maxing out KDA ratios.
QO and Hao play a more aggresive style. In some ways I feel QO is the better player because his team isn't as complete as EG but I look at Sumail's item builds trying to counteract the enemy compositions and I have to wonder if he's the smarter player regardless.
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On August 12 2015 17:56 Pomza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark. Shifting topic slightly but where would the community rank Sumail's ember? I would probably put his behind Maybe's with TC and Smash also being amazing players with the hero so is 4th in the world seem fair?
Saying TC and Smash have better Embers than Sumail is pretty ridiculous. I suppose you can make a case for Maybe and Ferrari whom you don't even mention, but Sumail definitely made a strong statement with his performances on the main stage against Complexity and CDEC.
In general ranking performances is a little silly since different teams use the hero in different ways, but we can certainly say Sumail's ES is among the best in the world, especially from the midlane.
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Saying TC is better than any of the top level players at any hero is a little hard to buy.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 12 2015 17:30 Yamulo wrote:
Playing PL against a competent ember is so game losing. That is why they ended up picking slark.
I mean, CDEC of all teams were the ones playing PL against Ember and it was rather game winning for them.
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In all the Suma1l ember vs pl matchup, the main thing is that he snowballed hard from mid, making the matchup seemingly ember skewed. The matchup is not as one sided as it looks. It is heavily dependent on the Ember's farm, which in turn can be influenced by the pl's +4.
I do think Suma1l ember is pretty good. I still do not favour the guard builds, but at least Suma1l doesn't think that guard gives him invincibility. He doesn't overextend that often, a very controlled and calculated approach to the hero.
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I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said.
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On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said.
I don't know. If both LGD and CDEC insisted on first phase banning it every single time, and let it slip through just once, it would probably worth picking just based on opponent mentality.
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On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said.
well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark?
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On August 13 2015 17:00 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said. well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark?
I mean did they know that Shiki's Lesh laning isn't good? Being confident with Ember isn't the same as knowing the enemy plays a meh Lesh. The matchup should have heavily been in Lesh's favour.
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On August 13 2015 17:14 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 17:00 lolnoty wrote:On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said. well the entire drafting strategy was knowing that CDEC couldnt play Lesh well, so of course he was the main factor. Slark isn't a hero that's going to win against EG's lineup if Lesh isn't a monster to help him, so why wouldn't they feel confident seeing Slark? I mean did they know that Shiki's Lesh laning isn't good? Being confident with Ember isn't the same as knowing the enemy plays a meh Lesh. The matchup should have heavily been in Lesh's favour.
You could watch the same video that you're saying you disagree with that says they deliberately let them have Lesh because they knew CDEC (aka Shiki) didn't play the hero. So yes, they probably knew CDEC wouldn't be good at laning Lesh
I mean if you don't play a hero it naturally follows you aren't as good as players that do in all areas of the game, laning a hero mid vs a world class mid isn't the same as just picking the hero in 5k MMR and just spamming lightning. Shiki and CDEC showed they weren't comfortable laning him since Game 1, why else would they push lesh on an objectively worse position (support) unless they were not confident with shiki vs sumail with it?
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On August 13 2015 14:22 DucK- wrote:
I too disagree with ppd's opinion that they won g3 when cdec picked slark. I thought the outcome was due to poor laning by shiki's lesh.
I also highly doubt that PPD would first phase pick techies if cdec didn't ban it, contrary to what PPD himself said.
I detect no false statements here. Seriously PPD was drunk on victory.
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just as an aside for people that think EG was wrong to think they won at Slark, VP was probably the best Slark using team in the world for a while, and FNG tweeted during that very game that slark is a bad hero now that doesn't have a place in this meta.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
with so many AMs, PLs, linas and leshracs, slark seems pretty weak
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EPT
