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On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth.
The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously.
Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
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On June 27 2020 02:33 YourGoodFriend wrote:
...
SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
I also think that Tobi is guilty. However, how does one prove innocence against rape accusations?
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On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement.
Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human.
I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being.
Hopefully they learn to be better next time.
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On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future.". Honest mistake. Are you having a laugh?
Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose.
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On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose.
As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance.
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On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest.
Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one.
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On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth. The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously. Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
The redemption arc that I and LD saw was centred around his alcoholism and his obnoxious behaviour on stream. I did not know that on top of that all there was sexual harassment in his history. It is realistic to assume that Grant let on that he had a lawsuit stemming from his past, but only shared that it was dismissed. By the nature of BTS being a small company, LD and GoDz would have been multitasking and sharing their attention by many different things. If many others in the 'old boys club' of Dota tell them that 'Grant's fine, bro', it's easy to see why they didn't dig further.
They won't make the mistake again.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to.
The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive.
BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future.
BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this.
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On June 27 2020 04:52 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest. Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend.
How can anyone hear about pure misogyny and homophobia at BTS that Zyori talked about and just believe LD about these things being an "honest mistake"? It was an honest mistake that a woman brings up harassment and is quickly shut out of the business by BTS? BTS do not have an honest bone in their bone. They are the reason the environment was dangerous for women to come forward in the first place but they made an "honest mistake".
What exactly has BTS done to earn the trust of people? Their PR statement is filled with blatant lies that can be disproven by the fact Godz had previously commented in threads where Grant was called out for using the N word and the top upvoted comment was Grant being quoted saying that he wished Hitler would drop a meteor on the jews. These are the people that we're claiming made an "honest mistake"?
No hate to any of you, obviously, but I refuse to let these lies from BTS go unchecked.
[Edit]: Added evidence.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
No hate felt, this is an area where people can have different opinions on what they can accept.
I believe it when BTS say their main reason for not taking Llama further was because they didn't feel she had a long term role as a caster for them because she wasn't good enough.
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On June 27 2020 05:05 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth. The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously. Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. The redemption arc that I and LD saw was centred around his alcoholism and his obnoxious behaviour on stream. I did not know that on top of that all there was sexual harassment in his history. It is realistic to assume that Grant let on that he had a lawsuit stemming from his past, but only shared that it was dismissed. By the nature of BTS being a small company, LD and GoDz would have been multitasking and sharing their attention by many different things. If many others in the 'old boys club' of Dota tell them that 'Grant's fine, bro', it's easy to see why they didn't dig further. They won't make the mistake again. ... and the serious allegation, which they tried to sort by letting them have separate locations, until they let her go. I am sure you didn't know.
Yeah, I remember NAdota during the Sayuri saga. That old boys club? I remember in the 30 mins I spent there, that Grant had quite the woman reputation, outside learning it was inhabited by degenerates and sexists, with a crude use of their first language.
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On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
Let's turn this around then.
Do you believe BTS truly knew the details of how Grant sexually harassed Llama to the point he did? Do you believe that BTS deliberately decided to ignore that Grant had a court case rule against him? Do you believe that they were aware of all the facts that Grant tries to hide from them, and maliciously put them aside so they could hire him as a caster?
Moreover, do you believe that others such as Blitz and Hotbid, who were all involved to a degree, also decided to cover this whole thing up?
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I am confused now. I thought the discussion was about recent allegations of sexual assault by prominent community figures and how BTS is being dishonest because they knew about these cases all along. The Llama case however wasn't about sexual assault, or did I miss something? Grant/Tobi making racist/homophobic/sexist/antisemetic comments certainly doesn't constitute sexual assault. So why are these things mentioned in this context? To me, LD knowing about the Llama case or the slurs of Grant/Tobi certainly does not mean that LD knew about Grant or Tobi committing sexual assault.
You can argue that BTS shouldn't have worked with Grant and Tobi just because of these other things, but I think you should be clear that that is your position. Actual sexual assault is in my eyes much more severe than the other mentioned things and I think it hurts the discussion lumping everything together.
When it comes to the mentioned cases of sexual assault, is there reason to believe BTS knew about these all along?
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
Sorry you're right, llama wasn't sexual assault, mixed them up on my phone.
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On June 27 2020 05:15 juuto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:52 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest. Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend. How can anyone hear about pure misogyny and homophobia at BTS that Zyori talked about and just believe LD about these things being an "honest mistake"? It was an honest mistake that a woman brings up harassment and is quickly shut out of the business by BTS? BTS do not have an honest bone in their bone. They are the reason the environment was dangerous for women to come forward in the first place but they made an "honest mistake". What exactly has BTS done to earn the trust of people? Their PR statement is filled with blatant lies that can be disproven by the fact Godz had previously commented in threads where Grant was called out for using the N word and the top upvoted comment was Grant being quoted saying that he wished Hitler would drop a meteor on the jews. These are the people that we're claiming made an "honest mistake"? No hate to any of you, obviously, but I refuse to let these lies from BTS go unchecked. [Edit]: Added evidence. Yeah, it is pretty hard to understand, but it just goes to show, that people will justify anything, if they want to.
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I think BTS failed in their duty to properly investigate allegations but I think this was mostly due to friendships and inexperience. Not due to malice.
I don’t think it’s that huge of a stretch to understand my point of view because I can certainly understand the counter view.
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On June 27 2020 05:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
Let's turn this around then.
Do you believe BTS truly knew the details of how Grant sexually harassed Llama to the point he did? Do you believe that BTS deliberately decided to ignore that Grant had a court case rule against him? Do you believe that they were aware of all the facts that Grant tries to hide from them, and maliciously put them aside so they could hire him as a caster?
Moreover, do you believe that others such as Blitz and Hotbid, who were all involved to a degree, also decided to cover this whole thing up? I believe, they knew there was allegations for her safety, as well as a court case of sexual harassment. Those are very serious allegations and any responsible person would take it serious. They didn't. I am still not sure why the both of you go down the road of malicious intent. It is irrelevant to the point. Of course it is much worse if it was malicious intent, but that was never any point I raised, but one the two of you decided to argue nonetheless.
Now they are up in arms and use melodramatic words such as "Protect the Survivors, and their stories must be heard", just because it hit the public sphere on a greater scale. while they sit with a history of being tone deaf at best, with one of their ex-employees.
I don't think Blitz or Hotbid knew anything about it, but if they did, it is not their decision to make, but LDs.
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EPT
