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On June 27 2020 06:04 overt wrote:
I think BTS failed in their duty to properly investigate allegations but I think this was mostly due to friendships and inexperience. Not due to malice.
I don’t think it’s that huge of a stretch to understand my point of view because I can certainly understand the counter view. Well, your view is that willfully ignoring a potential threat in the workspace, while being aware the accused is trying to redeem himself from an alcoholic past, is an honest mistake. In essence you are willing to run that risk to protect said friend's redemption, while under scrutiny or threatened.
It is a stretch.
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Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
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On June 27 2020 06:40 TomatoBisque wrote:
Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
I believe we are on the exact same page.
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On June 27 2020 05:37 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time.
What death threat you keep talking about. When i read the twitlong its Grant that claims she has made death threats. So can not see she should fear for her life, they also said they would step in if Grant crossed the line, and keep them from working on same location.
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Cap reaffirms his stance after seeing the evidence.
I think it's only fair that we bar toby from any involvement with the esports industry. (His past has shown he has used the same method to contractually exclude others) I also petition that we spam Kitkat & KFCgaming to immediately drop his endorsements. (He never deserved them to begin with) It disgusts me that someone like him can receive financial compensation enabling his predatory & racist behavior. We live in 2020 where we are inclusive of ALL. it's time we stop tolerating this behavior.
Hit his wallet, and racism, sexism, and predatory behavior will cease.
and for those who say this is a "1 time thing or All this is coming out now" Wrong.
It's been documented behavior since the dawn of dota and even dates back to dota 1. This is the culmination of documented behavior throughout all the years until the inevitable tipping point in which you see now. Sexism and marginalization didn't start just recently, the 2012 Starladder Kiev Finals was what inevitably dissuaded and pushed away many female dota 2 players from the community with his commentary. His participation & influence to support a tournament which mandated the objectification of women as a prerequisite for participation. This was the first and last female dota 2 that formed due to it.
https://i.imgur.com/vv6xv.jpg
https://tigrish.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-two-cents.html
Remember what they say, Who you involve yourself with is a reflection of your own character. He chose to bar Chinese organizations from attendance along with other promotions from streaming their games, while simultaneously supporting predatory organizations that marginalized, objectified and mandated they strip for a photoshoot. We could of had an all Female dota 2 team, but you can thank toby for finding the one organizer that preyed upon them.
Purge Also Reveals The State of "Consent" in question.
On June 27 2020 06:40 TomatoBisque wrote:
Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
By this definition, we should also hold every European tournament / organizer also accountable for allowing toby to thrive. I don't see any of you complaining about V1at or previous russian organizations. We need to recheck every tournament, organization that invited toby as a person of influence to draw crowds. The fact that JoinDota has been mum on the matter also makes me suspect they played a large role in his involvement. They gave him an entire platform to build his career and continue his behavior behind closed doors unsupervised.
Just look at the Join Dota news page. They oust GrandGrant by name and article but don't oust Toby due to his previous ties with them, it's time we put them under the fire. Everyone involved with Toby and building his career has to go. Join dota was the largest enabler and profiter of toby. It's time they are scrutinized and put under the light to reveal their connections with him. He was allowed to work with them for close to 7 years unimpeded. The fact they still don't put their foot down and disavow him shows they're complicit with covering up the crimes since they enabled him and didn't allow a peep to be heard during this time.
https://www.joindota.com/en/news
To The Victim Blamers OD and I Have this to say
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On June 27 2020 06:56 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:37 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time. What death threat you keep talking about. When i read the twitlong its Grant that claims she has made death threats. So can not see she should fear for her life, they also said they would step in if Grant crossed the line, and keep them from working on same location. Yeah, I misread those were his false accusations, but she had safety issues and a restraining order. They willfully decided to ignore their past grievances, and as you say, solved their issues with separating them to different spots. Opting for "please report, if he overstepped his boundaries, is not securing someone's safety. It is not an honest mistake, but negligence.
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I hate to break some peoples bubble here but:
"Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape.
In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here).
These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concerns
So be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
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I have approximately zero fear that Grant, Toby, or anyone else is going to sue me or anyone else over this conversation. People say worse shit on twitter all the time
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Imagine getting sued for calling a creep a creep.
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On June 27 2020 15:36 eoLiD wrote:I hate to break some peoples bubble here but: "Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape. In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here). These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concernsSo be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
That’s great because the victim in Toby’s case said no multiple times.
Grant’s allegation occurred in the United States and as you helpfully pointed out you must obtain consent here.
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On June 27 2020 15:36 eoLiD wrote:I hate to break some peoples bubble here but: "Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape. In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here). These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concernsSo be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
Like it makes fuck all difference in how I view a person who forces them on someone if it's legally rape or not.
Regarding a defamation case I would agree with you that this might be a thing to consider. But apart from that it's no improvement that it's not legally rape, "just" sexual assault.
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2 More come out Confirming creepy behavior by Toby Dawson
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Oh, he made a creepy comment on a video call. Send him straight to jail, 10 years minimum.
It's getting ridiculous ...
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 28 2020 18:28 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
Oh, he made a creepy comment on a video call. Send him straight to jail, 10 years minimum.
It's getting ridiculous ...
You can't just look at each event in a vacuum, you have to consider the pattern of behaviour that is coming to light.
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As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming.
I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning!
Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy."
Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true.
This is not my way to judge people, sorry.
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Sorry for the doublepost:
I just read Hot_bids last tweet and his google-doc. If that's true what is stated there, I think Valve overreacted to avoid a public shitstorm.
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You're needlessly hyperbolic when advocating for moderation and warning people of overreacting. Which starkly undermines what you want to do - for me that is.
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On June 28 2020 18:56 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming.
I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning!
Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy."
Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true.
This is not my way to judge people, sorry.
1. What "Other" talents? I suggest you name them because they sure aren't his Co-workers, Co-Casters or Boss for that matter. Pyrion, Maelk, Syndren, Pixel, Cap, Purge, Sheever, LD. So which of these "considers him charming"? Perhaps V1lat? Surely you don't mean Luke Cotton, the boss that recently dropped him too did you? or do you mean JoinDota commentors?
2. The photo with the female Dota 2 team. he has a known history of mocking women in his cast. he admits this.
The vod is linked in this thread
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/560689-compilation-of-tobis-racist-and-predatory-behavior
He has a habit of preying on women in the industry.
3. He supported tournaments that were hosted by people with questionable morals. This team he took a photo with had to strip for a photoshoot with v1lat as a prerequisite. This team would also go on to cite the sexist nature of the tournament. "who you surround yourself with is a reflection of your character" he most likely would have also wanted to take a picture with them in this manner, since it's iconic to the first one. These girls aren't MMA Ring girls, they're just normal Dota 2 players who want to make it but were forced to do it under these conditions.
imgur.com
4. The organizations he chooses to support and cast, says a lot about him. There's a reason why purge, pixel, syndren, cap refuse to work with him now knowing his history. He clearly had no qualms working with vl1at or ever regretted it.
5. And before you tell me they "didn't have to do it" this is CIS / Russia. Women's rights aren't a thing there, nor are any rights for LGBTQ.
6. He lied about having a relationship with her in the report. Admits what he did, was what something no woman should have experienced.
He continually tries to initiate sex with her on the bed and she rebuffs him multiple times. He calls it "Hugging," she says he forced her hand on his genitals.
7. Don't even get me started on removing your condom. Like why would you jeopardize another person's wellbeing to risk pregnancy or an STD without them agreeing to it?
8. Tobi stated he would "reach out" to his victims. Yet the 2 victims that were non-consensual, he never reached out to.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://cdn.dotablast.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/tobiwanvp.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/vv6xv)
