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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. This is a serious topic. Please treat it as such. If you have feedback on how we should approach this topic on LiquidDota, please see here. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't. You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered. You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't. You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. You are not above the things you claim. I do not need to be an eye witness to present the evidence available to me and to form my own opinions. You defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs all the evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, I have done my homework. You use conjecture and emotion. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his bosses, endorsements, co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. All these entities have far more credible opinions and are financially invested in toby. Until you actually present evidence to the contrary in supporting your arguments, I see no reason to entertain your rants any further. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/khl92xl5d6751.png) She Has confirmed this in an interview with JoinDOTA staff Here: www.joindota.com Reinessa: My first ever Dota 2 event was at TI4, and I was beyond excited to finally be at an event with so many people I admired and to have a chance to meet someone who loved cosplay and loved Dota. I waited in line, and when we went to take a picture, a caster said 'Wait, we have to do this pose' and slid down my leg. I didn't think too much of it, but I could see the huge crowd of people in front of us all taking their pictures and I was just leaning as far away as possible to make it as not awkward as possible. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:18 saocyn wrote: And so do you, you defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, you use conjecture. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business. If one of the participants choose to share their experiences to report on abusive behaviour of a public figure, it is fair that we make decisions on whether we want to continue associating with the figure in our community. On June 28 2020 18:56 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming. I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning! Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy." Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true. This is not my way to judge people, sorry. You're right that simply hugging a cosplayer awkwardly is not a huge deal. Like I said, before these new allegations, I simply considered Tobi socially awkward. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business. I actually agree with you that people judging such intimate details probably doesn’t belong in the open. I believe that Hot_Bid likely shared this information due to how many people were still defending Toby or acting like there was “no evidence.” I think the reaction has proven that providing more evidence is ultimately pointless. There is no amount of evidence, proof, or anything that would convince people who still believe organizations and Valve acted improperly. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business. It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium. It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves. It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues. I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it. You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter. I'll Quote Moxxi: https://www.joindota.com/en/news/93337-addressing-common-misunderstandings "Moxxi: I've never understood the mentality of: 'This is bad. We should just leave it alone.' If something is bad, we should strive to change it. What people fail to realise is that if our community is so toxic and we don't even attempt to fix it, it will make new players leave. And if new players leave, then our game will begin to die. Dota is an incredible game that is constantly evolving and getting patch updates to keep it interesting. Dota deserves better. We deserve better. | ||
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
Whether or not it is wrong enough to warrent co-casters to refuse to work with him, organisers to stop hiring him or viewers to stop watching him, is something else. That's a decision that I feel everyone should make for themselves. Looking at it from a distance, with limited knowledge of the facts, I can understand both decisions. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote: It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium. It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves. It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues. I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it. You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter. Two mistakes you are making here: First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others. Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 28 2020 23:33 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: Two mistakes you are making here: First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others. Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white. We can choose whether we want to associate with a community that associates with these public figures. I'd prefer for these figures to be removed. It appears that many in the community also want to remove them. So they should be removed. As for black and white, you're right that nuance should always be applied. Zyori's case, for example, is extremely grey, and his response has shown reflection and growth, and as such most are happy for him to remain in the community. Tobi's case, particularly the events with meruna, are much more towards the black. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On June 28 2020 23:33 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: Two mistakes you are making here: First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others. Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white. There are no mistakes, sorry. I have never said I was important, your focus is on something entirely irrelevant. When have I stated "people need me?" or "To judge over the sex life of others" Why are you even in a thread titled sex assault if you can't talk about sex? Learn to understand the usage of the word "Our" For a person who says "it isn't our business", you sure do like to chip in quite a lot. I guess your own logic doesn't apply to you. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote: There are no mistakes, sorry. Of course you can consider anything you do on your own as perfectly right. In my opinion people stating this lie to theirselves. It is your choice ofc how critical you review your own actions. I am, as you can realize from my postings, saddened by the public trial which feels like back in the medieval. Instead of discussing when they put their condom where, I wished a professional company like Valve acted like this: STEP 1: You as a company realize there is something going on you shouldn't ignore. STEP 2: You figure out which people are involved and need to be heard. In this case, Valve should have held a meeting with the following people: Meruna, TobiWan, a Valve employer, 1 person of trust of TobiWan, at least 1 person of trust of Meruna. If another girl has severe allegations, invite that one aswell with persons of trust. Maybe include the chief of BTS. You can argue which persons fit best here, the list is just an idea to show you what I mean. STEP 3: Hear both sides BEHIND closed doors. STEP 4: You probably will find out that TobiWan is done. You as Valve offer him two ways: If he accepts it and states publicly that he crossed lines you shouldn't cross, Valve and BTS state in a polite message that he is released from further casting since the companies are not willing to tolerate such behaviour. As a goodie for admitting his misbehaviour they keep his battlepass lines (or something similar). If he doesn't accept him, you fire him and state publicly that finding a solution was impossible due to unreasonable behaviour. STEP 5: I strongly assume that TobiWan would have given in. You give his fanbase no reason not to accept the whole progress. The way it went now is just a shitshow. You will have cancer twitchchat for months or years while people discuss the details of a sex relationship because you never dealed properly with the situation. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
Is there any step you disagree or are you just hardly trying to find anything to criticice? | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On June 29 2020 03:15 Qualitaetsgarant wrote: I'm pretty sure if all these people had held a meeting together we would heard about that. Is there any step you disagree or are you just hardly trying to find anything to criticice? I’m saying that when allegations of sexual assault happen behind closed doors it’s quite common for it to be swept under the rug. Often times the only way you can get multiple victims to come forward is when it gets brought up in a public manner because many victims do not speak out. Look up Larry Nassar or Harvey Weinstein. Both are examples of serious sexual abuse that victims tried to handle privately and nothing was done until they went public. Edit: Also, we know that one of Toby’s victims brought their allegation up to PyrionFlax in private... so? | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2689 Posts
And I get the tribunal you're asking valve to have hosted in the name of justice, but that doesn't work on a great many fronts. One, Valve doesn't have an internal Judge, afaik, so holding a 'fair' mini court case dun wurk. Two, victims could and would be free to not show up, because shit's traumatic. Tobi, too, could refuse to show, for similar reasons. Three... you ever been to an intervention for an addict or similar? Sometimes people that are broken do not know they are broken, or do not see it as broken. The information we have upfront is super alarming, regarding Tobi's behaviour, and there are strong allegations of there being a lot more behind closed doors. I'm glad that info is behind closed doors, and I hope Toby gets his 'intervention' in private from friends and family. It would not be or not have been proper for Valve to host that intervention. As is, their statement comes across as 'We believe you have a serious problem and will not be working with you further." Imo, fair enough. The way that he was dumped from the scene is super shitty. I don't see it as any shittier than his offenses. I'm sad that he's fighting against the allegations, because that suggests he doesn't know he's got some stuff to reconsider. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
I fully agree that victims might not want to show up. Thats why I said the list of person is surely not perfect. She could send representatives or sth. I don't think its a proper way to fight shit with shit. Even against a person who acted shitty you can prove as a person or as a company that you are better than this and still act professional. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2689 Posts
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
I guess I have the eye on identifying sexual perpetrators. | ||
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Qualitaetsgarant
124 Posts
On June 29 2020 18:59 Vertical wrote: all the caster that I didn't like (Grant and Tobi) got accused for harassment. I guess I have the eye on identifying sexual perpetrators. Can you tell us who else? | ||
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