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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. This is a serious topic. Please treat it as such. If you have feedback on how we should approach this topic on LiquidDota, please see here. |
Tobiwan
Accused of Assault
Meruna, Synderen's long-time girlfriend, has accused Tobiwan of sexual assualt.
Another member alleges an attempt :
Community members have been pouring in believing her and
distancing themselves from Tobi.
Synderen
LD(BTS, largest casting studio)
Tobi's Response
He first issued a poorly received twitlonger that has since been deleted. His current one is here:
Update : Meruna's response to Tobi's response
ttps://twitter.com/Meruna_/status/1276195535536500738
Valve's Response
Valve has removed Tobi's voicelines from the battlepass, which is their first public reaction about any of the current allegations.
Update:
Further corroboration of Tobi's behavior has been provided by Pyrionflax.
Maelk, who Pyrion notes was Tobi's boss at the time, responded on reddit. He confirms the account and notes he brought the incident to the CEO.
I don't recall the conversations verbatim, but I assure you there's been nothing sinister in bringing up Pyrion's name and that I am prone to think that I asked to be able to do so in order to circumstantiate the allegations and put more weight behind them in confronting him and hopefully get an honest answer and truthful recollection of what had transpired. Ultimately, it was all denied and when trying to pursue the matter further through the victim (I have never known the name) and all I had to go on was her word and a screenshot of a text message of them agreeing to meet in his hotel room, it was incredibly difficult to pursue further. I took it to our company's CEO at the time, as I no longer felt confident in what to do or how to further see it through, and ultimately left the company shortly thereafter (albeit unrelated to this incident).
[...]
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/hfvy7w/comment/fw0ifee
Further updates :
Evidence was provided to insiders. They've discussed it :
Od Pixel
LD
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I don't support any kind of sexual harassment but I have been in a situation that I was falsely accused by a coworker and it was proven by the HR department. So think before you make an opinion.
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He had to go, and it's good that it doesn't get too drawn out. Great caster, and by all accounts, terrible human being.
EDIT: He sort-of admitted it, and Valve+BTS cutting him instantly is all the proof needed to verify accusations, for me at least
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It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case.
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On June 26 2020 05:23 vitalja wrote:
I don't support any kind of sexual harassment but I have been in a situation that I was falsely accused by a coworker and it was proven by the HR department. So think before you make an opinion.
I am sorry that happened to you.
At this point there are two people who have made public allegations against TobiWan and despite admitting he has done, "horrible things," in the past when he went into specifics the only thing he confessed to was having consensual relationships with several girls. He's been incredibly inconsistent in his telling of events and the entire way he has handled everything has come across extremely slimy.
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On June 26 2020 05:32 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:23 vitalja wrote:
I don't support any kind of sexual harassment but I have been in a situation that I was falsely accused by a coworker and it was proven by the HR department. So think before you make an opinion. I am sorry that happened to you. At this point there are two people who have made public allegations against TobiWan and despite admitting he has done, "horrible things," in the past when he went into specifics the only thing he confessed to was having consensual relationships with several girls. He's been incredibly inconsistent in his telling of events and the entire way he has handled everything has come across extremely slimy.
years ago Tobi was accused by Starladder of unbecoming behaviour and was banned from their events. But then he became very big and the face of Dota. I am still skeptical, but I admit that he probably has issues.
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On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case.
Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner.
It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it.
His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material.
Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done.
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On June 26 2020 05:44 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case. Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner. It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it. His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material. Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done.
I don't really care about Tobi so it was more a statement about damage done.
Legally he has done nothing wrong (yet). Libel requires a written statement that is not true. The seriousness off the offence (and the amount you can sue for) depends on the magnitude of the accusation, the number of people reached by the message and the impact on your life.
In this case he has been accused of rape (extremely serious), the message was posted on twitter and has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people who know who he is and his career, and possibly marriage is ruined.
Merune was very unclear on what exactly he said about that specific part of the conversation. For her sake I hope that he 100 % admitted that yes he did not take no for an answer at that point. If he did not say this it's word against word which I assume means that there is a 0 % chance of him getting convicted of rape at this point.
If he is based in the UK and there is a legal way to pursue this, and he chose to do this it could get very serious.
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On June 26 2020 05:56 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:44 Artisreal wrote:On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case. Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner. It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it. His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material. Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done. I don't really care about Tobi so it was more a statement about damage done. Legally he has done nothing wrong (yet). Libel requires a written statement that is not true. The seriousness off the offence (and the amount you can sue for) depends on the magnitude of the accusation, the number of people reached by the message and the impact on your life. In this case he has been accused of rape (extremely serious), the message was posted on twitter and has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people who know who he is and his career, and possibly marriage is ruined. Merune was very unclear on what exactly he said about that specific part of the conversation. For her sake I hope that he 100 % admitted that yes he did not take no for an answer at that point. If he did not say this it's word against word which I assume means that there is a 0 % chance of him getting convicted of rape at this point. If he is based in the UK and there is a legal way to pursue this, and he chose to do this it could get very serious.
There is a 0% chance TobiWan is going to successfully sue either girl for libel.
Are you crazy?
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I thought Tobi was Australian? I imagine he has moved his base around quite a bit though.
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On June 26 2020 06:23 Nevuk wrote:
I thought Tobi was Australian? I imagine he has moved his base around quite a bit though.
that's what i thought too considering his twiter says it.
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On June 26 2020 06:08 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 05:56 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On June 26 2020 05:44 Artisreal wrote:On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case. Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner. It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it. His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material. Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done. I don't really care about Tobi so it was more a statement about damage done. Legally he has done nothing wrong (yet). Libel requires a written statement that is not true. The seriousness off the offence (and the amount you can sue for) depends on the magnitude of the accusation, the number of people reached by the message and the impact on your life. In this case he has been accused of rape (extremely serious), the message was posted on twitter and has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people who know who he is and his career, and possibly marriage is ruined. Merune was very unclear on what exactly he said about that specific part of the conversation. For her sake I hope that he 100 % admitted that yes he did not take no for an answer at that point. If he did not say this it's word against word which I assume means that there is a 0 % chance of him getting convicted of rape at this point. If he is based in the UK and there is a legal way to pursue this, and he chose to do this it could get very serious. There is a 0% chance TobiWan is going to successfully sue either girl for libel. Are you crazy?
Isn't there? Why not? He stands to gain his yearly income x 20-30 or so in damages if he is successful.
The first girl is safe. First rule of outing someone for sexual harassment is do not be specific. Ever. Saying that someone is a creep, made you feel unsafe, was predatory etc is all perfectly safe.
Saying that someone raped you is specific and is an accusation of a defined crime. Libel is accusing someone of something that is not true. A crime only happened if you were convicted off it (or in this case probably also if you have a written confession).
A journalist that got exposed in the Swedish #metoo wave recently successfully sued his accuser of libel and our laws are far more lenient. That guy had been charged with rape but was never convicted and was by all accounts a real slimeball towards women and what he did was far worse than Tobi. But she outed him for rape which was a bad idea.
So for Merunes sake let's hope that a) there is a solid confession in writing b) the pauses he took when being evasive was really because of his wife and not because he was consulting with his lawyer c) Tobi is not in a country/position where he can sue for libel d) he is not aware of the option.
Because otherwise there is a real chance of not only sueing for libel but actually winning the case as well.
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On June 26 2020 06:34 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:08 overt wrote:On June 26 2020 05:56 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On June 26 2020 05:44 Artisreal wrote:On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case. Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner. It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it. His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material. Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done. I don't really care about Tobi so it was more a statement about damage done. Legally he has done nothing wrong (yet). Libel requires a written statement that is not true. The seriousness off the offence (and the amount you can sue for) depends on the magnitude of the accusation, the number of people reached by the message and the impact on your life. In this case he has been accused of rape (extremely serious), the message was posted on twitter and has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people who know who he is and his career, and possibly marriage is ruined. Merune was very unclear on what exactly he said about that specific part of the conversation. For her sake I hope that he 100 % admitted that yes he did not take no for an answer at that point. If he did not say this it's word against word which I assume means that there is a 0 % chance of him getting convicted of rape at this point. If he is based in the UK and there is a legal way to pursue this, and he chose to do this it could get very serious. There is a 0% chance TobiWan is going to successfully sue either girl for libel. Are you crazy? Isn't there? Why not? He stands to gain his yearly income x 20-30 or so in damages if he is successful. The first girl is safe. First rule of outing someone for sexual harassment is do not be specific. Ever. Saying that someone is a creep, made you feel unsafe, was predatory etc is all perfectly safe. Saying that someone raped you is specific and is an accusation of a defined crime. Libel is accusing someone of something that is not true. A crime only happened if you were convicted off it (or in this case probably also if you have a written confession). A journalist that got exposed in the Swedish #metoo wave recently successfully sued his accuser of libel and our laws are far more lenient. That guy had been charged with rape but was never convicted and was by all accounts a real slimeball towards women and what he did was far worse than Tobi. But she outed him for rape which was a bad idea. So for Merunes sake let's hope that a) there is a solid confession in writing b) the pauses he took when being evasive was really because of his wife and not because he was consulting with his lawyer c) Tobi is not in a country/position where he can sue for libel d) he is not aware of the option. Because otherwise there is a real chance of not only sueing for libel but actually winning the case as well.
it's not libel, stop defending him. Go read Meruna's twitlonger
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9phu
"The person who could not take "No" for an answer and initiated sexual activity with me against my clear and repeated wishes is Toby "TobiWan" Dawson.
You will not need to yell for proof. Toby has admitted to doing this in a private conversation I had with him today, the first time we talked in 9 years. I initiated this conversation; he did not contact me." the guy self-admitted it and had a private conversation.
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I don't really want to engage in the libel conversation any further because it:
A) Distracts from the topic at hand.
B) If you legitimately believe he has a serious libel claim I don't think you actually understand how libel works. You have to actually prove that the statements are false which is impossible in this situation.
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On June 26 2020 06:40 saocyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 06:34 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On June 26 2020 06:08 overt wrote:On June 26 2020 05:56 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On June 26 2020 05:44 Artisreal wrote:On June 26 2020 05:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
It is synderens girlfriend and she has nothing to gain from this.
Should still keep in mind that a career and possibly a life/family is ruined over something that happened 9 years ago and that we know very little about and which will never go to court.
According to his twitter Tobiwan is based in the UK. He is accused of rape. The UK's libel laws are some of the toughest on the planet. Depending on what was said in their last conversation he might have a case. Whether this ruins his relationship is mainly up to him and his partner. It is influenced by the public's reaction but not dictated by it. His reaction leaves little leeway to argue that he could stay in this community. Finding a job elsewhere should he possible. Though his behaviour until now doesn't make for a good redemption arc material. Also important to point out that he ruined it himself through his actions and not making amends. Albeit that is easier said than done. I don't really care about Tobi so it was more a statement about damage done. Legally he has done nothing wrong (yet). Libel requires a written statement that is not true. The seriousness off the offence (and the amount you can sue for) depends on the magnitude of the accusation, the number of people reached by the message and the impact on your life. In this case he has been accused of rape (extremely serious), the message was posted on twitter and has been seen by hundreds of thousands of people who know who he is and his career, and possibly marriage is ruined. Merune was very unclear on what exactly he said about that specific part of the conversation. For her sake I hope that he 100 % admitted that yes he did not take no for an answer at that point. If he did not say this it's word against word which I assume means that there is a 0 % chance of him getting convicted of rape at this point. If he is based in the UK and there is a legal way to pursue this, and he chose to do this it could get very serious. There is a 0% chance TobiWan is going to successfully sue either girl for libel. Are you crazy? Isn't there? Why not? He stands to gain his yearly income x 20-30 or so in damages if he is successful. The first girl is safe. First rule of outing someone for sexual harassment is do not be specific. Ever. Saying that someone is a creep, made you feel unsafe, was predatory etc is all perfectly safe. Saying that someone raped you is specific and is an accusation of a defined crime. Libel is accusing someone of something that is not true. A crime only happened if you were convicted off it (or in this case probably also if you have a written confession). A journalist that got exposed in the Swedish #metoo wave recently successfully sued his accuser of libel and our laws are far more lenient. That guy had been charged with rape but was never convicted and was by all accounts a real slimeball towards women and what he did was far worse than Tobi. But she outed him for rape which was a bad idea. So for Merunes sake let's hope that a) there is a solid confession in writing b) the pauses he took when being evasive was really because of his wife and not because he was consulting with his lawyer c) Tobi is not in a country/position where he can sue for libel d) he is not aware of the option. Because otherwise there is a real chance of not only sueing for libel but actually winning the case as well. it's not libel, stop defending him. Go read Meruna's twitlonger https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9phu"The person who could not take "No" for an answer and initiated sexual activity with me against my clear and repeated wishes is Toby "TobiWan" Dawson. You will not need to yell for proof. Toby has admitted to doing this in a private conversation I had with him today, the first time we talked in 9 years. I initiated this conversation; he did not contact me." the guy self-admitted it and had a private conversation.
I'm not defending him and as I said I hope it's something that proves exactly what she says and not a carefully worded statement that is not a legal admission of rape.
I don't really want to engage in the libel conversation any further because it:
A) Distracts from the topic at hand.
B) If you legitimately believe he has a serious libel claim I don't think you actually understand how libel works. You have to actually prove that the statements are false which is impossible in this situation.
I don't think that's correct but OK, let's drop the libel discussion. Time will tell I guess.
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Man all this has turned into a real shitshow REAL fast. Hopefully we will see some people reporting it to the police as well!
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On June 26 2020 06:46 overt wrote:
I don't really want to engage in the libel conversation any further because it:
A) Distracts from the topic at hand.
B) If you legitimately believe he has a serious libel claim I don't think you actually understand how libel works. You have to actually prove that the statements are false which is impossible in this situation.
This differs from country to country. In my country you have to proof that your claim is correct if you get sued, not the other way round.
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after reading toby's twitlonger , he didnt deny @Meruna's accusations but did deny other women's accusations which does hint me that one is true while other may not be , as for Meruna situation , they will very likely have a case if she has has proof or witness that can confirm her side of story , pretty sure he will go to jail.
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Couldn't find anything in meruna's accusations that would make him go to jail, is there anything more than those 2 twitlonger ?
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On June 26 2020 05:23 vitalja wrote:
So think before you make an opinion.
Okay, so I thought, and my conclusion is fuck this scumbag.
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Probably should be in the OP.
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Thanks, added that info to the OP (Meruna's follow-up, pflax and maelk's confirmation). Sorry about the delay, I'm theoretically on vacation this week.
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On June 26 2020 13:13 Nevuk wrote:
Thanks, added that info to the OP (Meruna's follow-up, pflax and maelk's confirmation). Sorry about the delay, I'm theoretically on vacation this week.
you shouldn't be here, let me take over the thread 
Jk have a good vacation!
Also, throwback Tobi With Cosplayer. He Says Hi, coincidentally.
![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/khl92xl5d6751.png)
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2020 keeps delivering... I am curious if this will go to court
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The question is, wtf is considered a sexual activity from her point of view. We just had one crazy girl calling her own agreement to have sex a sexual abuse, so... Many of these stories are basically girls trying to hit on guys, seeing no commitment in return, getting butthurt from that and claiming they were raped, this is getting too ridiculous
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On June 26 2020 17:41 Clouden wrote:
The question is, wtf is considered a sexual activity from her point of view. We just had one crazy girl calling her own agreement to have sex a sexual abuse, so... Many of these stories are basically girls trying to hit on guys, seeing no commitment in return, getting butthurt from that and claiming they were raped, this is getting too ridiculous
Kindly fuck off with your victim blaming bullshit.
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On June 26 2020 18:01 Julmust wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 17:41 Clouden wrote:
The question is, wtf is considered a sexual activity from her point of view. We just had one crazy girl calling her own agreement to have sex a sexual abuse, so... Many of these stories are basically girls trying to hit on guys, seeing no commitment in return, getting butthurt from that and claiming they were raped, this is getting too ridiculous Kindly fuck off with your victim blaming bullshit.
Except they were never victims, sir
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On June 26 2020 18:07 Clouden wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 18:01 Julmust wrote:On June 26 2020 17:41 Clouden wrote:
The question is, wtf is considered a sexual activity from her point of view. We just had one crazy girl calling her own agreement to have sex a sexual abuse, so... Many of these stories are basically girls trying to hit on guys, seeing no commitment in return, getting butthurt from that and claiming they were raped, this is getting too ridiculous Kindly fuck off with your victim blaming bullshit. Except they were never victims, sir
How enlightened of you to just fucking decide that for someone. Think about how disgusting that is, and think about the vast amount of space between wanting to weigh the facts and allow for any possibility, and announcing that they're not victims.
Jesus.
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On June 26 2020 18:20 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 18:07 Clouden wrote:On June 26 2020 18:01 Julmust wrote:On June 26 2020 17:41 Clouden wrote:
The question is, wtf is considered a sexual activity from her point of view. We just had one crazy girl calling her own agreement to have sex a sexual abuse, so... Many of these stories are basically girls trying to hit on guys, seeing no commitment in return, getting butthurt from that and claiming they were raped, this is getting too ridiculous Kindly fuck off with your victim blaming bullshit. Except they were never victims, sir How enlightened of you to just fucking decide that for someone. Think about how disgusting that is, and think about the vast amount of space between wanting to weigh the facts and allow for any possibility, and announcing that they're not victims. Jesus.
When somebody says "i fucked him to get more gigs, and that felt disgusting" you don't have to be an Einstein to count 2+2. Or like that guy from csgo, whose ex first stated that she does not remember anything because she was high, and then proceeds to explain how was what with 0 proofs, WHILE trying to keep good relations with him and actually backing up on certain stuff, deleting her posts etc. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, when the fuck will white knights/cucks like you will learn that? On Meruna's case, as i said, you have to know the details to judge, there's no details, so she just can't be considered a victim, at least not by me. Have you read her twitter and tweetlonger? Zero proof, but okay, perhaps she does not want share details publicly, perhaps there's someone relevant who knows about this and can ensure there was some fucked up shit happening? No, i don't think so. So basically you want me to believe in "big man pinned my tiny ass but i managed to escape"? Or tweetlonger story that only says she felt bad about everything that happened, again, with no specific stuff? You are saying that i can't decide if someone's not a victim, but why in the fucking world do you think you can claim her being a victim? Based on fucking what? Court? I don't think that ever happenned. Her story with nothing specific? Genius
User was temp banned for this post
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2 Victims coming forward.
one said this and i quote.
"Just to be clear: I would't have agreed to sexual relations had I known the other party wasn't serious "
Sounds exactly like sexual assault.Much like the other case sounds like the girl just wanted to get attention from Toby who was very famous caster basically.
These girls need to learn the definition of sexual assaullt.
Both Maelk and Pyrion knew about his inappropriate behavior , but surprise didn't do shit , because they were making money of Toby and suddenly when someone came out they're the first to justify it.They are in fact 10 times worse than Toby.
They had the power to do something about it ,but decided to make money instead and they will continue working in the scene ofc.
I'm 100% sure Toby was harassing girls in some way or another , but many ppl knew about it and nobody did anything and now all of them are saints etc.
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On June 26 2020 18:44 firfich wrote:2 Victims coming forward. one said this and i quote. "Just to be clear: I would't have agreed to sexual relations had I known the other party wasn't serious " https://twitter.com/botjira/status/1276183020521664513Sounds exactly like sexual assault.Much like the other case sounds like the girl just wanted to get attention from Toby who was very famous caster basically. These girls need to learn the definition of sexual assaullt. Both Maelk and Pyrion knew about his inappropriate behavior , but surprise didn't do shit , because they were making money of Toby and suddenly when someone came out they're the first to justify it.They are in fact 10 times worse than Toby. They had the power to do something about it ,but decided to make money instead and they will continue working in the scene ofc. I'm 100% sure Toby was harassing girls in some way or another , but many ppl knew about it and nobody did anything and now all of them are saints etc.
Ok ýou just linked the twitt from Botijira, that for me says that Tobi didn't rape her. But she was hurt over a fuck and dump. The word agreed to sexual act is in there.
More to the point the only case Pyrion, who later told Maelk about is Botijra. But she would not press charges. Don't know about you but don't think you can fire or blacklist people without any proof. Maelk had a talk to Tobi, we don't know what he said but properly not a pleasant talk for Tobi, since Tobi confronted Pyrion about it.
On the other cases, SyndereN's gf seem very convincing with her having chatlog with him admitting it, would be nice to see it. The other case i haven't seen.But there is a strange pattern with Tobi ending up with women because of lack of space at events. Maybe something the organizers should look into. Its pretty mind boggling how big a problem this is.
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Ok ýou just linked the twitt from Botijira, that for me says that Tobi didn't rape her. But she was hurt over a fuck and dump. The word agreed to sexual act is in there.
There are literally million girls hurt after someone used them for sex.It goes both ways.That's not assault in any way.Maybe he mislead her or something.But blaming someone for ur mental state is just easier to deal with.
Pyrion was convinced Toby did what he was accused of ,but still worked with him etc for personal benefits.Just like all of the rest.
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OK
I want to hear how many for your people actually quit a job or gang because you knew a person in that company have commit a sexual harassment or normal harassment?
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I think this tweet is about what happened with Sing and not about Tobi? It's important because she says in here that there was mutual agreement (whether or not the male partner was serious about the followup).
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On June 26 2020 20:24 Furikawari wrote:
I think this tweet is about what happened with Sing and not about Tobi? It's important because she says in here that there was mutual agreement (whether or not the male partner was serious about the followup).
Thanks context is important.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 26 2020 18:44 firfich wrote:2 Victims coming forward. one said this and i quote. "Just to be clear: I would't have agreed to sexual relations had I known the other party wasn't serious " https://twitter.com/botjira/status/1276183020521664513Sounds exactly like sexual assault.Much like the other case sounds like the girl just wanted to get attention from Toby who was very famous caster basically. These girls need to learn the definition of sexual assaullt. Both Maelk and Pyrion knew about his inappropriate behavior , but surprise didn't do shit , because they were making money of Toby and suddenly when someone came out they're the first to justify it.They are in fact 10 times worse than Toby. They had the power to do something about it ,but decided to make money instead and they will continue working in the scene ofc. I'm 100% sure Toby was harassing girls in some way or another , but many ppl knew about it and nobody did anything and now all of them are saints etc.
This isn't sexual assault though. You either consent, or you don't. There are no conditions to be attached to consent. You can of course withdraw consent whenever you want during the act.
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On June 26 2020 20:28 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 20:24 Furikawari wrote:
I think this tweet is about what happened with Sing and not about Tobi? It's important because she says in here that there was mutual agreement (whether or not the male partner was serious about the followup). Thanks context is important.
To me it seems advisable to consider why you appear to only look for gotchas that somehow invalidate all or part of what is happening to supposed perpetrators here.
Something that doesn't quite check out, something that is contradictory or illogical, that makes what has been done alright or understandable. Like you're trying to rationalize horrid behaviour.
I'm not sure why you do that but it really seems to me that you victimise the perpetrators to an extent that I find unhealthy.
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Delete this comment, i saw it was already clarified regarding who the comment was about.
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This isn't sexual assault though. You either consent, or you don't. There are no conditions to be attached to consent. You can of course withdraw consent whenever you want during the act.
Agreed. Some storys sound like "I consented back then, but today i don't consent any more."
Just because you change your attitude of consenting afterwards doesn't allow you to claim sexual harrassment.
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Her accusation that Toby pinned her down in a hotel room is 100% assault. You don’t have the right to hold people down in an attempt to pressure them for sex.
Meruna hasn’t been incredibly specific (and I don’t blame her) but it’s obvious she was raped.
https://twitter.com/meruna_/status/1276422738605981696?s=21
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On June 26 2020 21:14 overt wrote:Her accusation that Toby pinned her down in a hotel room is 100% assault. You don’t have the right to hold people down in an attempt to pressure them for sex. Meruna hasn’t been incredibly specific (and I don’t blame her) but it’s obvious she was raped. https://twitter.com/meruna_/status/1276422738605981696?s=21
I didn't refer to those specific claims with my statement.
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On June 26 2020 21:07 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 20:28 Sapaio wrote:On June 26 2020 20:24 Furikawari wrote:
I think this tweet is about what happened with Sing and not about Tobi? It's important because she says in here that there was mutual agreement (whether or not the male partner was serious about the followup). Thanks context is important. To me it seems advisable to consider why you appear to only look for gotchas that somehow invalidate all or part of what is happening to supposed perpetrators here. Something that doesn't quite check out, something that is contradictory or illogical, that makes what has been done alright or understandable. Like you're trying to rationalize horrid behaviour. I'm not sure why you do that but it really seems to me that you victimise the perpetrators to an extent that I find unhealthy.
It's because i find it unhealthy that you can write something on the net, and then some one is guilty, this complety undermize the justice system, this is an act of vigilante.
Here you sentence Tobi to loss his job, friendships and more. Maybe other People think he deserve i beating, some could think worse.
I really find some of this post hysterical and the demand for justice with blind faith.
I would have prefered he had trial instead of this. As I said context is important. I thought it refered to sex with Tobi and not another person. To be honest he seems guilty, but as I can misread a text out of context that seem to change my mind in one case. I would say that you and other people misread an accusation.
So lets say one of this evil rapist turns out innocent, what should the pubishment be for all the people here yelling for them to loss there job, should you get fired and have a post that admit you raped some one so can feel it for one week.
No that is a bad idea, why we should lave it to the court system. The other way is towards anarchy.
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On June 26 2020 19:40 Sapaio wrote:
OK
I want to hear how many for your people actually quit a job or gang because you knew a person in that company have commit a sexual harassment or normal harassment?
If you are driven by morals and ethics, you don't compromise them for fear of losing your income. If you do, then your morals and ethics are meaningless, and essentially you sold them for mammon.
If you stick by said people, you are indirectly endorsing their behavior as acceptable or not detrimental enough to cut it, which essentially speaks volumes about one's own character traits.
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The biggest caster in dota getting cancelled over an accusation of something that may or may not have happened 9 years ago. I want off this timeline.
How long do people think this cancel culture shit can fly before it starts backfiring? For every life ruined life because of accusations from many years ago, many people are radicalised and turn towards fringe right-wing beliefs. This shit needs to stop before literally everyone is radicalised either to the left or the right.
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Your past always catches up to you. You can call it the law of Karma.
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On June 26 2020 23:22 ihatevideogames wrote:
The biggest caster in dota getting cancelled over an accusation of something that may or may not have happened 9 years ago. I want off this timeline.
How long do people think this cancel culture shit can fly before it starts backfiring? For every life ruined life because of accusations from many years ago, many people are radicalised and turn towards fringe right-wing beliefs. This shit needs to stop before literally everyone is radicalised either to the left or the right.
I'm going out on a limb here, but my 2 cents: if it was that one thing, from X years ago, and it would be questionable whether even that is true, Tobi would be fine, BTS and Valve wouldnt have done sh`t.
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On June 26 2020 23:22 ihatevideogames wrote:
The biggest caster in dota getting cancelled over an accusation of something that may or may not have happened 9 years ago. I want off this timeline.
How long do people think this cancel culture shit can fly before it starts backfiring? For every life ruined life because of accusations from many years ago, many people are radicalised and turn towards fringe right-wing beliefs. This shit needs to stop before literally everyone is radicalised either to the left or the right.
And for every life ruined because of actions from many years ago... ah, I forgot, you don't care, cause those are not "the biggest caster in dota". Or is there any other feature about them you dislike?
But I don't think anyone worries about you crying about being pushed to the far right. You are off the cliff already.
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People whom he has worked with for years, who knew him personally, have all believed these allegations. If there was nothing substantial here you honestly think his colleagues and friends wouldn't be defending him?
To people who don't believe the allegations I'd just ask that you answer what specifically you'd need to see to convince you of his guilt?
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On June 26 2020 23:22 ihatevideogames wrote:
For every life ruined life because of accusations from many years ago, many people are radicalised and turn towards fringe right-wing beliefs.
This part right here is real fucking rich. Real interesting approach. Use typical alt-right incel jargon then warn about people being drawn to far right beliefs
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I think "everybody" have known that Tobi have been a prick for years and years. I'm surprised it didn't catch up to him before now.
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Nahaz's Thoughts on Toby.
https://medium.com/@nahazdota/regarding-toby-b5ee41b193e4
Nahaz reveals meruna has given all of them screen shots of the private conversations which they won't post publically, but the inherent conversation was so damning against toby, he's guilty in the eyes of his co-workers and employers. there's no way his employers would not have also seen those same screenshots to drop him immediately.
Meruna clarifies her position
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On June 26 2020 23:17 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 21:07 Artisreal wrote:On June 26 2020 20:28 Sapaio wrote:On June 26 2020 20:24 Furikawari wrote:
I think this tweet is about what happened with Sing and not about Tobi? It's important because she says in here that there was mutual agreement (whether or not the male partner was serious about the followup). Thanks context is important. To me it seems advisable to consider why you appear to only look for gotchas that somehow invalidate all or part of what is happening to supposed perpetrators here. Something that doesn't quite check out, something that is contradictory or illogical, that makes what has been done alright or understandable. Like you're trying to rationalize horrid behaviour. I'm not sure why you do that but it really seems to me that you victimise the perpetrators to an extent that I find unhealthy. It's because i find it unhealthy that you can write something on the net, and then some one is guilty, this complety undermize the justice system, this is an act of vigilante. Here you sentence Tobi to loss his job, friendships and more. Maybe other People think he deserve i beating, some could think worse. I really find some of this post hysterical and the demand for justice with blind faith. I would have prefered he had trial instead of this. As I said context is important. I thought it refered to sex with Tobi and not another person. To be honest he seems guilty, but as I can misread a text out of context that seem to change my mind in one case. I would say that you and other people misread an accusation. So lets say one of this evil rapist turns out innocent, what should the pubishment be for all the people here yelling for them to loss there job, should you get fired and have a post that admit you raped some one so can feel it for one week. No that is a bad idea, why we should lave it to the court system. The other way is towards anarchy.
This isn't something. It's been corroborated enough times to have colleagues and friends turn away from him.
Some things aren't illegal but amoral. For this there is only the public/ people to judge a character. Which can be wrong but everything points to this not being the case with Toby or grant.
Thus insisting another case might be different is absolutely superfluous. Discussing what if's borders on gaslighting.
And what the fuck? We sentence Toby? These are HIS actions not ours that are disgusting. He's thrown himself under the bus by being a prick. Of course I believe it if enough people I consider credible come out against him.
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To be honest, the DotA2 community in the past 12 hours has made me extremely disappointed.
The fact that even after these statements from Nahaz, LD, ODPixel, and others there will still be people questioning the authenticity of these claims against Toby is alarming and frustrating. I hope the industry can change even if it has to drag the most vile members of the community along with it.
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They are shitheads mate. Who refuse to see that this shit have damaged women. Most likely because they don't see women as equals.
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Victim Blamers Need to hold an L and sit down.
There is Due Process behind the scenes and this is exactly how it goes down.
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As far as I am concerned, TobiWan is innocent until proven otherwise. Anyone can make up stories for whatever reason. Sexual assault is a felony, if Tobi's accusers think that they have a strong case, they should bring it in court. Otherwise he has every right to sue them for damaging his career and reputation.
This is how things work in civilised society... Not in the era of social media brainwashing... I guess.
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On June 27 2020 01:57 Pr0wler wrote:
As far as I am concerned, TobiWan is innocent until proven otherwise. Anyone can make up stories for whatever reason. Sexual assault is a felony, if Tobi's accusers think that they have a strong case, they should bring it in court. Otherwise he has every right to sue them for damaging his career and reputation.
This is how things work in civilised society... Not in the era of social media brainwashing... I guess.
Amorality isn't a crime.
Do you condone amoral behaviour? Do you want our community's figurehead to be a predatory prick?
Because that's what you're saying
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On June 27 2020 01:57 Pr0wler wrote:
As far as I am concerned, TobiWan is innocent until proven otherwise. Anyone can make up stories for whatever reason. Sexual assault is a felony, if Tobi's accusers think that they have a strong case, they should bring it in court. Otherwise he has every right to sue them for damaging his career and reputation.
This is how things work in civilised society... Not in the era of social media brainwashing... I guess.
Seriously? Did you not read the tweets above yours? Like what the fuck?
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You talk about the court of social media, yet demand people's private lives be publicized so that you can make the final judgment on whether someone went too far. What gives you the authority to make these demands? People don't walk around recording their lives in video.
Take a step back and reflect seriously on if your motives behind your statements are pure. Do you care about this for the victims involved, or because of how it affects you? Does losing something (a caster you find entertaining) impact your interpretation of events?
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I read them. When we are talking about felony accusations tweeter is the last thing I take ino account. The person is innocent untill there is court decision. BTS is a private company and can fire whoever and for whatever reason they decide. Of course it's then up for the fired person to sue them for wrongful termination, depending on the contract.
There is a reason why the justice system exists. Playing judge and jury on tweeter/Facebook is just a barbaric way to execute this process.
Edit. I don't demand for anything. Other people are demanding heads on a platter, because of Twitter posts. I'm just expressing my disagreement and disappointment with the way this situation is handled.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him.
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On June 27 2020 02:29 Pr0wler wrote:
I read them. When we are talking about felony accusations tweeter is the last thing I take ino account. The person is innocent untill there is court decision. BTS is a private company and can fire whoever and for whatever reason they decide. Of course it's then up for the fired person to sue them for wrongful termination, depending on the contract.
There is a reason why the justice system exists. Playing judge and jury on tweeter/Facebook is just a barbaric way to execute this process.
You don't have to believe he is innocent or guilty.
But you also don't have to defend someone that is very likely guilty of sexual assault and possibly rape. Companies can choose to work with whomever they want and the fact that every major studio, and Valve, believes these allegations are credible is proof enough for me to believe we don't need TobiWan anywhere near the Dota scene now or ever again.
It doesn't matter what you or I think though because we're never going to see another Toby cast again. And, in my opinion, that is wonderful news.
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People who keep saying "Until proven guilty in a court of law they are innocent" are confusing two things. They are innocent of a CRIME (punishable by their government) until proven innocent (at least in the US). That doesn't actually mean they are innocent.
Lets break it down, is Tobi denying the allegations and fighting for his innocence? No
https://twitter.com/TobiWanDOTA
Is there evidence that is corroborated by multiple people who have seen it?
YES
On June 27 2020 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him.
SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
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On June 27 2020 02:23 TomatoBisque wrote:
Does losing something (a caster you find entertaining) impact your interpretation of events?
This is a pretty big takeaway. I imagine a good number of people acting all defensive for Toby are too stubborn or too cowardly to burn their idols.
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What Tobi did was bad enough that it got Valve to react almost instantly. Valve is not a company known for reacting to things.
We may not know the details of what happened but it was probably pretty fucked up.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 02:40 Spook wrote:
Valve is not a company known for reacting to things.
This did make me laugh.
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LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future.
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It's interesting how nobody knew anything (or just didn't care) before the tweets happened. Then all of a sudden, in a day, they gather the evidence to fire someone and to proclaim him rapist.
I see two possibilities here.
1. They knew and didn't care and now their hand is forced.
2. The last thing they need after the pandemic is being cancelled... So a person or two is a fair price.
This is how things work in the social media brainwashing era.
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On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not.
Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations
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LD is also probably having to balance his role in BTS and therefore as representative of co-workers and colleagues as well as a prominent community member and individual. To an extent he'll feel forced to speak the corporate language no matter what his feelings individually are, as he is not speaking only for himself.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 03:06 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not. Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations
How are they distracting from Llama's accusations?
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On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self.
I completely agree that Zyori's case seem very light, and possibly says more about the victim, that him isolated - unless this has a pattern, which seeking Kips in NL after a No, seems to suggest. However, that said, as it stands, I find these things pretty innocent interaction of a boy in love with a girl, rather than abuse or misuse of power.
Calling them survivors is more emotional than formal. Setting a scene using an emotional and melodramatic connotation that far exceeds reality is trying to use it for some sort of effect, that is completely unnecessary. If there is a difference in narrative between these two instances(Grant and Tobi), it shows he addresses them trying to protect one(including himself and his studio), and witch hunting another.
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On June 27 2020 03:06 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not. Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations This is how I feel too.
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On June 27 2020 02:33 YourGoodFriend wrote:People who keep saying "Until proven guilty in a court of law they are innocent" are confusing two things. They are innocent of a CRIME (punishable by their government) until proven innocent (at least in the US). That doesn't actually mean they are innocent. Lets break it down, is Tobi denying the allegations and fighting for his innocence? No https://twitter.com/TobiWanDOTAIs there evidence that is corroborated by multiple people who have seen it? YES Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him. SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
As much as I dislike punishment outside the legal system and cancel culture this is a good way of handling it. It is also good that there is clear evidence and that it can be shown to reliable representatives of the community.
Although I personally feel that there is always a moral imperitive to report a known crime. Most countries have statue of limitations of more than 10 years so that should still be an option.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self.
Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here?
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On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth.
The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously.
Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
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On June 27 2020 02:33 YourGoodFriend wrote:
...
SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
I also think that Tobi is guilty. However, how does one prove innocence against rape accusations?
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On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement.
Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human.
I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being.
Hopefully they learn to be better next time.
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On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future.". Honest mistake. Are you having a laugh?
Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose.
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On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose.
As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance.
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On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest.
Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one.
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On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth. The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously. Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line.
The redemption arc that I and LD saw was centred around his alcoholism and his obnoxious behaviour on stream. I did not know that on top of that all there was sexual harassment in his history. It is realistic to assume that Grant let on that he had a lawsuit stemming from his past, but only shared that it was dismissed. By the nature of BTS being a small company, LD and GoDz would have been multitasking and sharing their attention by many different things. If many others in the 'old boys club' of Dota tell them that 'Grant's fine, bro', it's easy to see why they didn't dig further.
They won't make the mistake again.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to.
The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive.
BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future.
BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this.
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On June 27 2020 04:52 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest. Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend.
How can anyone hear about pure misogyny and homophobia at BTS that Zyori talked about and just believe LD about these things being an "honest mistake"? It was an honest mistake that a woman brings up harassment and is quickly shut out of the business by BTS? BTS do not have an honest bone in their bone. They are the reason the environment was dangerous for women to come forward in the first place but they made an "honest mistake".
What exactly has BTS done to earn the trust of people? Their PR statement is filled with blatant lies that can be disproven by the fact Godz had previously commented in threads where Grant was called out for using the N word and the top upvoted comment was Grant being quoted saying that he wished Hitler would drop a meteor on the jews. These are the people that we're claiming made an "honest mistake"?
No hate to any of you, obviously, but I refuse to let these lies from BTS go unchecked.
[Edit]: Added evidence.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
No hate felt, this is an area where people can have different opinions on what they can accept.
I believe it when BTS say their main reason for not taking Llama further was because they didn't feel she had a long term role as a caster for them because she wasn't good enough.
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On June 27 2020 05:05 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? It should be pretty straight forward in relation to what we both put forth. The point is that since he believed there was a redemption arc, it means he had knowledge that this guy had to be monitored, and as such has tried to protect said friend to keep his redemption process going by keeping silent. He is now voicing "survivors", when the attention is someone not his friend, and in most years, competitor for TI casting jobs, while he just says, "I am truly sorry" about not taking Llama situation more seriously. Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. The redemption arc that I and LD saw was centred around his alcoholism and his obnoxious behaviour on stream. I did not know that on top of that all there was sexual harassment in his history. It is realistic to assume that Grant let on that he had a lawsuit stemming from his past, but only shared that it was dismissed. By the nature of BTS being a small company, LD and GoDz would have been multitasking and sharing their attention by many different things. If many others in the 'old boys club' of Dota tell them that 'Grant's fine, bro', it's easy to see why they didn't dig further. They won't make the mistake again. ... and the serious allegation, which they tried to sort by letting them have separate locations, until they let her go. I am sure you didn't know.
Yeah, I remember NAdota during the Sayuri saga. That old boys club? I remember in the 30 mins I spent there, that Grant had quite the woman reputation, outside learning it was inhabited by degenerates and sexists, with a crude use of their first language.
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On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Let's turn this around then.
Do you believe BTS truly knew the details of how Grant sexually harassed Llama to the point he did? Do you believe that BTS deliberately decided to ignore that Grant had a court case rule against him? Do you believe that they were aware of all the facts that Grant tries to hide from them, and maliciously put them aside so they could hire him as a caster?
Moreover, do you believe that others such as Blitz and Hotbid, who were all involved to a degree, also decided to cover this whole thing up?
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I am confused now. I thought the discussion was about recent allegations of sexual assault by prominent community figures and how BTS is being dishonest because they knew about these cases all along. The Llama case however wasn't about sexual assault, or did I miss something? Grant/Tobi making racist/homophobic/sexist/antisemetic comments certainly doesn't constitute sexual assault. So why are these things mentioned in this context? To me, LD knowing about the Llama case or the slurs of Grant/Tobi certainly does not mean that LD knew about Grant or Tobi committing sexual assault.
You can argue that BTS shouldn't have worked with Grant and Tobi just because of these other things, but I think you should be clear that that is your position. Actual sexual assault is in my eyes much more severe than the other mentioned things and I think it hurts the discussion lumping everything together.
When it comes to the mentioned cases of sexual assault, is there reason to believe BTS knew about these all along?
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Sorry you're right, llama wasn't sexual assault, mixed them up on my phone.
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On June 27 2020 05:15 juuto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 04:52 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:33 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:20 overt wrote:On June 27 2020 04:00 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:42 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self. Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here? Lastly, anyone with active brain cells, understands when someone uses, "Not to my recollection", "Not that I recall", they are words that are used to protect yourself, in case these show a different scenario down the line. I'll preface this by saying that I think when Llama indicated to LD/Godz/BTS staff that she had proof that GrandGrant was not only harassing her but sending her death threats I do believe they had a duty as her employer to investigate these claims. It appears they did not and simply dismissed them. I, personally, believe this was an honest mistake as they let their friendship with GrandGrant cloud their judgement. Statements like, "not that I recall," aren't just to shield yourself from lawsuits. I received 100+ emails per day in my day-to-day job. There are certainly things I cannot remember or recall even if there's a written trail that indicates I should've been aware of a situation. That's simply part of being human. I think it's fine to say that BTS should be re-evaluating their policies. They should have a procedure going forward to take such claims serious and I hope they do go through a reformation of their policies. But I do not, personally, believe that they acted with ill-intent. I think they made an honest mistake that was muddied by a friendship with a clearly flawed human being. Hopefully they learn to be better next time. Yeah, those allegations are pretty severe, and completely shows a different approach than, "Recent allegations of sexual assault and misconduct have come out against Toby. We believe them. We won't be working with him in the future." Please don't insult my intelligence. If you can't recall whether you gave your friend legal advice or not, you are suddenly suffering from convenient memory loss. Excessive use of "Not that I recall" and "I have no recollection" in specific points, while you are pretty clear about everything else, are words used with a purpose. As I said, I think that LD/Godz/BTS should've acted better. I believe they made honest mistakes based on a personal friendship. I could be wrong and it could've been more sinister as you indicate. But based on what I have seen I do not believe their actions were based on malice but on willful ignorance. I am not sure why you are repeating yourself, while you completely ignore the rest. Honest mistake? Are you having a laugh? These a pretty serious allegations from one colleague to another. Whether it is willful ignorance or out of malice is not the point. Both showcase a completely different approach, when it is not their friend. How can anyone hear about pure misogyny and homophobia at BTS that Zyori talked about and just believe LD about these things being an "honest mistake"? It was an honest mistake that a woman brings up harassment and is quickly shut out of the business by BTS? BTS do not have an honest bone in their bone. They are the reason the environment was dangerous for women to come forward in the first place but they made an "honest mistake". What exactly has BTS done to earn the trust of people? Their PR statement is filled with blatant lies that can be disproven by the fact Godz had previously commented in threads where Grant was called out for using the N word and the top upvoted comment was Grant being quoted saying that he wished Hitler would drop a meteor on the jews. These are the people that we're claiming made an "honest mistake"? No hate to any of you, obviously, but I refuse to let these lies from BTS go unchecked. [Edit]: Added evidence. Yeah, it is pretty hard to understand, but it just goes to show, that people will justify anything, if they want to.
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I think BTS failed in their duty to properly investigate allegations but I think this was mostly due to friendships and inexperience. Not due to malice.
I don’t think it’s that huge of a stretch to understand my point of view because I can certainly understand the counter view.
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On June 27 2020 05:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
Let's turn this around then.
Do you believe BTS truly knew the details of how Grant sexually harassed Llama to the point he did? Do you believe that BTS deliberately decided to ignore that Grant had a court case rule against him? Do you believe that they were aware of all the facts that Grant tries to hide from them, and maliciously put them aside so they could hire him as a caster?
Moreover, do you believe that others such as Blitz and Hotbid, who were all involved to a degree, also decided to cover this whole thing up? I believe, they knew there was allegations for her safety, as well as a court case of sexual harassment. Those are very serious allegations and any responsible person would take it serious. They didn't. I am still not sure why the both of you go down the road of malicious intent. It is irrelevant to the point. Of course it is much worse if it was malicious intent, but that was never any point I raised, but one the two of you decided to argue nonetheless.
Now they are up in arms and use melodramatic words such as "Protect the Survivors, and their stories must be heard", just because it hit the public sphere on a greater scale. while they sit with a history of being tone deaf at best, with one of their ex-employees.
I don't think Blitz or Hotbid knew anything about it, but if they did, it is not their decision to make, but LDs.
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On June 27 2020 06:04 overt wrote:
I think BTS failed in their duty to properly investigate allegations but I think this was mostly due to friendships and inexperience. Not due to malice.
I don’t think it’s that huge of a stretch to understand my point of view because I can certainly understand the counter view. Well, your view is that willfully ignoring a potential threat in the workspace, while being aware the accused is trying to redeem himself from an alcoholic past, is an honest mistake. In essence you are willing to run that risk to protect said friend's redemption, while under scrutiny or threatened.
It is a stretch.
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Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
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On June 27 2020 06:40 TomatoBisque wrote:
Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
I believe we are on the exact same page.
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On June 27 2020 05:37 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time.
What death threat you keep talking about. When i read the twitlong its Grant that claims she has made death threats. So can not see she should fear for her life, they also said they would step in if Grant crossed the line, and keep them from working on same location.
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Cap reaffirms his stance after seeing the evidence.
I think it's only fair that we bar toby from any involvement with the esports industry. (His past has shown he has used the same method to contractually exclude others) I also petition that we spam Kitkat & KFCgaming to immediately drop his endorsements. (He never deserved them to begin with) It disgusts me that someone like him can receive financial compensation enabling his predatory & racist behavior. We live in 2020 where we are inclusive of ALL. it's time we stop tolerating this behavior.
Hit his wallet, and racism, sexism, and predatory behavior will cease.
and for those who say this is a "1 time thing or All this is coming out now" Wrong.
It's been documented behavior since the dawn of dota and even dates back to dota 1. This is the culmination of documented behavior throughout all the years until the inevitable tipping point in which you see now. Sexism and marginalization didn't start just recently, the 2012 Starladder Kiev Finals was what inevitably dissuaded and pushed away many female dota 2 players from the community with his commentary. His participation & influence to support a tournament which mandated the objectification of women as a prerequisite for participation. This was the first and last female dota 2 that formed due to it.
https://i.imgur.com/vv6xv.jpg
https://tigrish.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-two-cents.html
Remember what they say, Who you involve yourself with is a reflection of your own character. He chose to bar Chinese organizations from attendance along with other promotions from streaming their games, while simultaneously supporting predatory organizations that marginalized, objectified and mandated they strip for a photoshoot. We could of had an all Female dota 2 team, but you can thank toby for finding the one organizer that preyed upon them.
Purge Also Reveals The State of "Consent" in question.
On June 27 2020 06:40 TomatoBisque wrote:
Not wanting to look into Grant due to friendships is still bad and has the same effect; it creates a culture that says "this is okay as long as you hold value to the right people." This is what terms like rape culture describe. Most enablers aren't other abusers, but normal people who are friends or like that person for other reasons (such as being a popular caster that draws views to your broadcasts) and are thus willing to gloss over complaints against them because why put in effort to something that's just going to make my life worse? This is what happened here in the best case scenario, and what BTS has committed to doing moving forward isn't enough because these complaints were already levied publicly (as juuto linked) and they brushed it off.
In cases like this we can't just give people a pass because they said they're sorry, there needs to be a real plan of action on how to prevent similar situations. "We're going to talk about it" just isn't good enough
edit: I should be clear I don't think LD/BTS should be canceled forever (assuming they weren't actively covering up for Grant which is still to be determined), but they need to show they're not just another corporation spouting platitudes and trying to look woke.
By this definition, we should also hold every European tournament / organizer also accountable for allowing toby to thrive. I don't see any of you complaining about V1at or previous russian organizations. We need to recheck every tournament, organization that invited toby as a person of influence to draw crowds. The fact that JoinDota has been mum on the matter also makes me suspect they played a large role in his involvement. They gave him an entire platform to build his career and continue his behavior behind closed doors unsupervised.
Just look at the Join Dota news page. They oust GrandGrant by name and article but don't oust Toby due to his previous ties with them, it's time we put them under the fire. Everyone involved with Toby and building his career has to go. Join dota was the largest enabler and profiter of toby. It's time they are scrutinized and put under the light to reveal their connections with him. He was allowed to work with them for close to 7 years unimpeded. The fact they still don't put their foot down and disavow him shows they're complicit with covering up the crimes since they enabled him and didn't allow a peep to be heard during this time.
https://www.joindota.com/en/news
To The Victim Blamers OD and I Have this to say
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On June 27 2020 06:56 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:37 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:08 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 27 2020 05:05 Dracolich70 wrote:On June 27 2020 04:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I believe it is an honest mistake too. A bad one but an honest one. Honest mistake is trying to categorise this as an understandable mistake, all the while LD is now up in arms using a highly melodramatic narrative of "Survivors that needs to be protected". But this does showcase why these things have had a hard time getting traction, when the both of you are trying to dismiss it as understandable mistakes, from serious allegations, that anyone that was responsible for the safety of their workforce would take far more serious. It shows you are willing to justify anything, when you want to. The two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive. BTS screwed up. But they did so out of ignorance and naivety rather than maliciousness. It just so happens that this mistake covered up a very serious issue, and is a mistake made far too often and needs to have the spotlight shone on it to prevent it happening again in the future. BTS are responsible, but they are not reprehensible for this. Eh, they kind of are, unless you are willing to justify ignoring death threats and sexual harassment allegations, as something understandable in a workspace. If you are, please don't waste anymore of my time. What death threat you keep talking about. When i read the twitlong its Grant that claims she has made death threats. So can not see she should fear for her life, they also said they would step in if Grant crossed the line, and keep them from working on same location. Yeah, I misread those were his false accusations, but she had safety issues and a restraining order. They willfully decided to ignore their past grievances, and as you say, solved their issues with separating them to different spots. Opting for "please report, if he overstepped his boundaries, is not securing someone's safety. It is not an honest mistake, but negligence.
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I hate to break some peoples bubble here but:
"Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape.
In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here).
These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concerns
So be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
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I have approximately zero fear that Grant, Toby, or anyone else is going to sue me or anyone else over this conversation. People say worse shit on twitter all the time
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Imagine getting sued for calling a creep a creep.
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On June 27 2020 15:36 eoLiD wrote:I hate to break some peoples bubble here but: "Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape. In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here). These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concernsSo be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
That’s great because the victim in Toby’s case said no multiple times.
Grant’s allegation occurred in the United States and as you helpfully pointed out you must obtain consent here.
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On June 27 2020 15:36 eoLiD wrote:I hate to break some peoples bubble here but: "Initiating sex without consent" might be rape in the US and Canada but in the vast majority of countries you would have to "initiate sex against clear objection" to be convicted for rape. In addition, there are only 3 countries that have thus far convicted anyone for "Stealthing" - Canada, Switzerland and Germany. The first was in Canada in 2014 (and hence after some of the events discussed here). These things aren't that hard to find out if you want to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-consensual_condom_removal#Legal_and_ethical_concernsSo be careful what you say or post in public as you might be playing in the hands of the offenders if you defame them.
Like it makes fuck all difference in how I view a person who forces them on someone if it's legally rape or not.
Regarding a defamation case I would agree with you that this might be a thing to consider. But apart from that it's no improvement that it's not legally rape, "just" sexual assault.
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2 More come out Confirming creepy behavior by Toby Dawson
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Oh, he made a creepy comment on a video call. Send him straight to jail, 10 years minimum.
It's getting ridiculous ...
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 28 2020 18:28 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
Oh, he made a creepy comment on a video call. Send him straight to jail, 10 years minimum.
It's getting ridiculous ...
You can't just look at each event in a vacuum, you have to consider the pattern of behaviour that is coming to light.
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As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming.
I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning!
Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy."
Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true.
This is not my way to judge people, sorry.
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Sorry for the doublepost:
I just read Hot_bids last tweet and his google-doc. If that's true what is stated there, I think Valve overreacted to avoid a public shitstorm.
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You're needlessly hyperbolic when advocating for moderation and warning people of overreacting. Which starkly undermines what you want to do - for me that is.
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On June 28 2020 18:56 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming.
I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning!
Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy."
Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true.
This is not my way to judge people, sorry.
1. What "Other" talents? I suggest you name them because they sure aren't his Co-workers, Co-Casters or Boss for that matter. Pyrion, Maelk, Syndren, Pixel, Cap, Purge, Sheever, LD. So which of these "considers him charming"? Perhaps V1lat? Surely you don't mean Luke Cotton, the boss that recently dropped him too did you? or do you mean JoinDota commentors?
2. The photo with the female Dota 2 team. he has a known history of mocking women in his cast. he admits this.
The vod is linked in this thread
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/560689-compilation-of-tobis-racist-and-predatory-behavior
He has a habit of preying on women in the industry.
3. He supported tournaments that were hosted by people with questionable morals. This team he took a photo with had to strip for a photoshoot with v1lat as a prerequisite. This team would also go on to cite the sexist nature of the tournament. "who you surround yourself with is a reflection of your character" he most likely would have also wanted to take a picture with them in this manner, since it's iconic to the first one. These girls aren't MMA Ring girls, they're just normal Dota 2 players who want to make it but were forced to do it under these conditions.
imgur.com
4. The organizations he chooses to support and cast, says a lot about him. There's a reason why purge, pixel, syndren, cap refuse to work with him now knowing his history. He clearly had no qualms working with vl1at or ever regretted it.
5. And before you tell me they "didn't have to do it" this is CIS / Russia. Women's rights aren't a thing there, nor are any rights for LGBTQ.
6. He lied about having a relationship with her in the report. Admits what he did, was what something no woman should have experienced.
He continually tries to initiate sex with her on the bed and she rebuffs him multiple times. He calls it "Hugging," she says he forced her hand on his genitals.
7. Don't even get me started on removing your condom. Like why would you jeopardize another person's wellbeing to risk pregnancy or an STD without them agreeing to it?
8. Tobi stated he would "reach out" to his victims. Yet the 2 victims that were non-consensual, he never reached out to.
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It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take.
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On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take.
You are not above the things you claim. I do not need to be an eye witness to present the evidence available to me and to form my own opinions. You defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs all the evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, I have done my homework. You use conjecture and emotion. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence.
Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his bosses, endorsements, co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. All these entities have far more credible opinions and are financially invested in toby. Until you actually present evidence to the contrary in supporting your arguments, I see no reason to entertain your rants any further.
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and for the record, the cosplayer in question he Slid his hands under, is Reinessa.
She Has confirmed this in an interview with JoinDOTA staff Here:
www.joindota.com
Reinessa: My first ever Dota 2 event was at TI4, and I was beyond excited to finally be at an event with so many people I admired and to have a chance to meet someone who loved cosplay and loved Dota. I waited in line, and when we went to take a picture, a caster said 'Wait, we have to do this pose' and slid down my leg. I didn't think too much of it, but I could see the huge crowd of people in front of us all taking their pictures and I was just leaning as far away as possible to make it as not awkward as possible.
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On June 28 2020 22:18 saocyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. And so do you, you defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, you use conjecture. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator.
My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't.
I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 22:18 saocyn wrote:On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. And so do you, you defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, you use conjecture. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business.
If one of the participants choose to share their experiences to report on abusive behaviour of a public figure, it is fair that we make decisions on whether we want to continue associating with the figure in our community.
On June 28 2020 18:56 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
As you can see from other talents, some considered him being nice and charming.
I strongly suggest we focus on real allegations worth mentioning!
Not things like "Redeye yelled at me when i dropped a cup of tea 7 years ago" or "TobiWan made a comment on a video call several years ago that, now that I reconsider it, might have been creepy."
Edit: "Considering the pattern" - he took a photo with a female Dota2-team, so every allegation against him must be true.
This is not my way to judge people, sorry.
You're right that simply hugging a cosplayer awkwardly is not a huge deal. Like I said, before these new allegations, I simply considered Tobi socially awkward.
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On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 22:18 saocyn wrote:On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
It's not uncommon to have different views about how serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. And so do you, you defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, you use conjecture. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business.
I actually agree with you that people judging such intimate details probably doesn’t belong in the open. I believe that Hot_Bid likely shared this information due to how many people were still defending Toby or acting like there was “no evidence.”
I think the reaction has proven that providing more evidence is ultimately pointless. There is no amount of evidence, proof, or anything that would convince people who still believe organizations and Valve acted improperly.
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On June 28 2020 22:31 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 22:18 saocyn wrote:On June 28 2020 22:04 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
It's not uncommon to have different views about h
ow serious a relationship is. She agreed to sleep in his bed and denied another sleeping place he offered.
You are talking like you were an eye-witness of all these events. I am pretty sure you weren't.
You feel comfortable judging events you barely know anything about, putting yourself on a very high moral instance, a place you are not in a position to take. And so do you, you defend him as if you've witnessed his interactions in person. As if your sole opinion outweighs evidence presented and agreed upon. I use evidence to support my accusations, you use conjecture. The entire picture is written, only you are in denial of evidence. Your faulty opinion is outweighed by his co-casters, co-workers, friends, and the victim of the perpetrator. My point is not that Tobi is right and Meruna isn't. I think its inappropriate to have a community judge over such personal issues on twitlongers or internet forums. We discuss whether Meruna should have slept on a couch or in Tobys bed like 9 years ago. This alone should tell you that it is none of our business.
It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium.
It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves.
It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues.
I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it.
You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter.
I'll Quote Moxxi: https://www.joindota.com/en/news/93337-addressing-common-misunderstandings
"Moxxi: I've never understood the mentality of: 'This is bad. We should just leave it alone.' If something is bad, we should strive to change it. What people fail to realise is that if our community is so toxic and we don't even attempt to fix it, it will make new players leave. And if new players leave, then our game will begin to die. Dota is an incredible game that is constantly evolving and getting patch updates to keep it interesting. Dota deserves better. We deserve better.
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Based on the information provided and the reputation of those providing it, I find it very unlikely that nothing serious has happened. And if that was not enough, there is the fact that Tobi admitted that he tried to initiate sex with Meruna several times when she was sleeping in his bed, while knowing full well that she did not want to have sex with him. I don't know about you, but that's far beyond the grey area for me. To me that's just wrong.
Whether or not it is wrong enough to warrent co-casters to refuse to work with him, organisers to stop hiring him or viewers to stop watching him, is something else. That's a decision that I feel everyone should make for themselves. Looking at it from a distance, with limited knowledge of the facts, I can understand both decisions.
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On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote:
It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium.
It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves.
It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues.
I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it.
You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter.
Two mistakes you are making here:
First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others.
Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 28 2020 23:33 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote:
It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium.
It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves.
It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues.
I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it.
You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter. Two mistakes you are making here: First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others. Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white.
We can choose whether we want to associate with a community that associates with these public figures. I'd prefer for these figures to be removed. It appears that many in the community also want to remove them. So they should be removed.
As for black and white, you're right that nuance should always be applied. Zyori's case, for example, is extremely grey, and his response has shown reflection and growth, and as such most are happy for him to remain in the community. Tobi's case, particularly the events with meruna, are much more towards the black.
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On June 28 2020 23:33 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote:
It is our business when the victim has reached out to the public for help and specifically used the internet as the medium.
It becomes our business when they take it digitally, and have gone out of their way to document their own trauma in an attempt to protect themselves.
It is our business when a large portion of our own identity is tied directly into how many hours we've invested into the game and community. When those figureheads who represent the community attach a negative stigma to it, it also is our business to call it out and clean it up. I do not want to be associated with any community that can simply gloss over these issues.
I want dota to GROW. In doing so requires an inclusive environment for all. We cannot have a figurehead that holds misogynistic views and preys on the people who are new and wish to be apart of it.
You can choose to slander the victims or bring awareness to the issues, I choose the latter. Two mistakes you are making here: First: You consider yourself way too important. You think people need you to judge over the sexlife of others. Second: You try to paint in black and white. For you any criticism means slandering a possible victim. The world out there is not just black and white.
There are no mistakes, sorry.
I have never said I was important, your focus is on something entirely irrelevant. When have I stated "people need me?" or "To judge over the sex life of others" Why are you even in a thread titled sex assault if you can't talk about sex? Learn to understand the usage of the word "Our"
For a person who says "it isn't our business", you sure do like to chip in quite a lot. I guess your own logic doesn't apply to you.
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On June 28 2020 23:27 saocyn wrote:
There are no mistakes, sorry.
Of course you can consider anything you do on your own as perfectly right. In my opinion people stating this lie to theirselves. It is your choice ofc how critical you review your own actions.
I am, as you can realize from my postings, saddened by the public trial which feels like back in the medieval. Instead of discussing when they put their condom where, I wished a professional company like Valve acted like this:
STEP 1: You as a company realize there is something going on you shouldn't ignore.
STEP 2: You figure out which people are involved and need to be heard. In this case, Valve should have held a meeting with the following people: Meruna, TobiWan, a Valve employer, 1 person of trust of TobiWan, at least 1 person of trust of Meruna. If another girl has severe allegations, invite that one aswell with persons of trust. Maybe include the chief of BTS. You can argue which persons fit best here, the list is just an idea to show you what I mean.
STEP 3: Hear both sides BEHIND closed doors.
STEP 4: You probably will find out that TobiWan is done. You as Valve offer him two ways: If he accepts it and states publicly that he crossed lines you shouldn't cross, Valve and BTS state in a polite message that he is released from further casting since the companies are not willing to tolerate such behaviour. As a goodie for admitting his misbehaviour they keep his battlepass lines (or something similar). If he doesn't accept him, you fire him and state publicly that finding a solution was impossible due to unreasonable behaviour.
STEP 5: I strongly assume that TobiWan would have given in. You give his fanbase no reason not to accept the whole progress.
The way it went now is just a shitshow. You will have cancer twitchchat for months or years while people discuss the details of a sex relationship because you never dealed properly with the situation.
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How do you know allegations against Toby didn’t come up in private and no action was taken? How do you get more victims to come forward if it’s all handled in private?
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I'm pretty sure if all these people had held a meeting together we would heard about that.
Is there any step you disagree or are you just hardly trying to find anything to criticice?
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On June 29 2020 03:15 Qualitaetsgarant wrote:
I'm pretty sure if all these people had held a meeting together we would heard about that.
Is there any step you disagree or are you just hardly trying to find anything to criticice?
I’m saying that when allegations of sexual assault happen behind closed doors it’s quite common for it to be swept under the rug.
Often times the only way you can get multiple victims to come forward is when it gets brought up in a public manner because many victims do not speak out.
Look up Larry Nassar or Harvey Weinstein. Both are examples of serious sexual abuse that victims tried to handle privately and nothing was done until they went public.
Edit:
Also, we know that one of Toby’s victims brought their allegation up to PyrionFlax in private... so?
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As someone who tends slightly more towards your grey than others, I'll chip in and say I do not feel that the actions taken towards Toby were unjust. I get where you're coming from, but as soon as things started happening with Grant, I started expecting news of Tobi to come to the forefront. Even from my outside perspective, he's shown to be a bit of a creeper, so while that is certainly far from damning, it does leave me open to the possibility of him having done worse.
And I get the tribunal you're asking valve to have hosted in the name of justice, but that doesn't work on a great many fronts. One, Valve doesn't have an internal Judge, afaik, so holding a 'fair' mini court case dun wurk. Two, victims could and would be free to not show up, because shit's traumatic. Tobi, too, could refuse to show, for similar reasons. Three... you ever been to an intervention for an addict or similar? Sometimes people that are broken do not know they are broken, or do not see it as broken. The information we have upfront is super alarming, regarding Tobi's behaviour, and there are strong allegations of there being a lot more behind closed doors. I'm glad that info is behind closed doors, and I hope Toby gets his 'intervention' in private from friends and family. It would not be or not have been proper for Valve to host that intervention. As is, their statement comes across as 'We believe you have a serious problem and will not be working with you further." Imo, fair enough.
The way that he was dumped from the scene is super shitty. I don't see it as any shittier than his offenses. I'm sad that he's fighting against the allegations, because that suggests he doesn't know he's got some stuff to reconsider.
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Valve is company that will hold events with 30 million + prize pool events. They will find someone that has common sense and negotiating skills that can hold such a meeting.
I fully agree that victims might not want to show up. Thats why I said the list of person is surely not perfect. She could send representatives or sth.
I don't think its a proper way to fight shit with shit. Even against a person who acted shitty you can prove as a person or as a company that you are better than this and still act professional.
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I don't see their choice as unprofessional. I think appointing themselves judge and jury just lines them up to also be public executioner. As-is, they made a decision for themselves based on information they had. The fact that that is also fairly damning isn't on them, and if it came to that I'm sure Tobi would have avenues to pursue the reasoning for his dismissal and make those public if he so chose.
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all the caster that I didn't like (Grant and Tobi) got accused for harassment.
I guess I have the eye on identifying sexual perpetrators.
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On June 29 2020 18:59 Vertical wrote:
all the caster that I didn't like (Grant and Tobi) got accused for harassment.
I guess I have the eye on identifying sexual perpetrators.
Can you tell us who else?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Tobi has withdrawn from the scene
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His last goodbye post should have been his first Defense post. Someone on twitter worded it better than I could.
"You went from a pseudo redemption arch, trying to silence the women, using your family as a shield, admitting to sexual assault (see Meruna's published DMs) and stealthing, to I am the victim here, pls safe my legacy. This may actually be the most disgusting thing you've said yet"
The Tobi sympathizers have got to go as well.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
what a tonedeaf goodbye post. good riddance
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Notice how he didn't Delete his account outright, he just changed his name to "Inactive" he still has access to it. He even changed his picture to some cartoony variation.
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On July 02 2020 21:06 saocyn wrote:
The Tobi sympathizers have got to go as well.
Sorry, not going anywhere. I liked Tobi casting! He was entertaining and also was able to comment very wild DotA-fights in high-speed speech that was still understandable! Not something everyone is able to do! Quite a few casters start getting incomprehensible in the heat of the battle! So I have nice memories of him and he will leave a big hole in the DotA-caster area!
Yes, he did shitty things too. But I don't dump good things in the litter box for that!
Seriously: If now some researcher found THE cure for Covid19! It works like a charm and everyone is just waiting to get it to be safe and things getting normal again. But a week into mass-producing the drug, someone releases information, that this researcher is going to KKK meetings, so is a fucking racist asshole.
Tell me: Do you still take the pill, or do you say "nope, throw it all away! someone better has to find a cure!"?
Also:
On July 02 2020 22:40 saocyn wrote:
Notice how he didn't Delete his account outright, he just changed his name to "Inactive" he still has access to it.
Why exactly should he delete his account? Or loose "access" to it? He said, that he is leaving DotA and gaming and not Twitter. Maybe now it will be just one of the million "dead" twitter accounts, that never say anything, but that is not wrong.
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New Accusations against toby With Text Messages
https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8e
STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper.
The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable.
"i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting.
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I'm not sure what you think of accomplishing with linking this thread/article. Because if the things mentioned there were representative and the extent of things Tobi had done ... I would defend him and think you are stupid! "Sleazy DMs!? That's all!? Uhhhh, world is ending..."
So please stop with that!
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TobiWan is officially the biggest piece of shit this scene has ever seen. Which is saying a lot.
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On July 03 2020 00:03 saocyn wrote:New Accusations against toby With Text Messages https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8ehttps://twitter.com/GenghisKhatt/status/1277349375165861888STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper. The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable. "i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting.
Closet white power supporter with an asian wife and daughter?
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On July 03 2020 02:13 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 00:03 saocyn wrote:New Accusations against toby With Text Messages https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8ehttps://twitter.com/GenghisKhatt/status/1277349375165861888STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper. The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable. "i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting. Closet white power supporter with an asian wife and daughter?
I'm not gonna comment on the racist shit he's said in the past but marrying an Asian woman doesn't mean shit. NY Times even wrote an article about it but lots of people who call themselves white supremacists are into Asian women for a host of reasons.
If you actually care I will leave you with two articles:
1. Article from The Lily which is a paper owned by the Washington Post which is written by (and for) women.
2. NY Times Article, "The Alt-Right's Asian Fetish," but this one requires you to make an account to read it.
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Overt gets it. It's the same as back when white supremacist would sexually assault their slaves and wives. It is an act of power over them, not an act of cultural acceptance. It's the reason why he would be willing to take an Asian wife, and still hate the Chinese scene. We have football owners who do the same in USA. Have black girlfriends or wives, and tell them they despise seeing black men around them.
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On July 03 2020 03:33 saocyn wrote:
Overt gets it. It's the same as back when white supremacist would sexually assault their slaves and wives. It is an act of power over them, not an act of cultural acceptance. It's the reason why he would be willing to take an Asian wife, and still hate the Chinese scene. We have football owners who do the same in USA. Have black girlfriends or wives, and tell them they despise seeing black men around them.
Being jealous of other men around your gf/wives is not the same as being a white supremacist.
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Saocyn, I think you might be projecting things unto Tobi. Let's stick to what we know, not what you assume to be.
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On July 03 2020 00:03 saocyn wrote:New Accusations against toby With Text Messages https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8ehttps://twitter.com/GenghisKhatt/status/1277349375165861888STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper. The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable. "i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting.
Sooo he flirts with her, she flirts back, then all of the sudden she's the victim of sexual abuse? Honestly...
Obviously all that BS with white history etc. is somewhat fucked up, but the way she berates him after being flirty in a few DMs is super weird too, when obviously she didn't mind it back then.
At what point in time did it become illegal to flirt with someone just because you're famous?
I have read (and believe) some fucked up stories about tobi in the last few days, and I'm thankful they are being published, this one however I feel is riding the #metoo train way too hard.
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Yeah the more posts I read from Saocyn the more I feel like he's projecting, not only in this Tobi thread but the others as well. It's always the ones who virtue signal the hardest that have most to hide...
Then saying such a blanket statement like On July 02 2020 21:06 saocyn wrote:
The Tobi sympathizers have got to go as well.
LMAO OK. Sorry I'm not going anywhere, and definitely not because you told me to leave.
Was Tobi a creep? Yeah, probably. Sorry I can't get so up-in-arms and emotionally invested into this whole thing like you over tweets that happened years ago. I don't feel like joining the lynching mob and getting my pitchfork sharpened and the torch lit.
Do I think he should stay? No. Will I miss him? Yes, because unlike you I don't want his involvement in the scene scrubbed clean and forgotten to the point that even uttering his name will be a big no-no.
I know NONE of the people involved personally, and I certainly only know Tobi from his casting. If they have any grievances with each other, go to court.
He already lost his job, his friends and any future prospects in the industry. But I get the impression you want him to lose even more... but I won't finish this thought.
I will not excuse or defend his deeds but I choose to remember him by his contribution to the community as caster. I'll never forget him casting TI finals and delivering epic commentary.
Just like SaviOr from Starcraft... was he a scumbag for matchfixing? Yes, absolutely. Will I deny that he was one of the very best zergs to have ever played the game? Nope, he'll always be a bonjwa in my memories and heart.
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I've said this before in the Redeye thread, and I'll say it again here: The main problem with this are the people who go cry foul over it on the internet and publicizing every damn thing.
If you were harrassed, go to the damn court. Are they just decor to you? What's the difference of admitting it in court to posting it online anonymously or not in terms of being known?
This is not victim blaming. My main point is that instead of going on public, look for remedies inside your own industry or in court. In some countries, everything that's happening right now can be considered online libel.
Again, I do not say that it's the victim's fault for being victimized. I do not say that what Tobi or any of the other people's actions are good or even excusable. What I'm saying is that this situation could've been handled better.
And "make Dota a better place"? What a joke. All it's doing is stripping the old powers and replacing it with the new.
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On July 03 2020 09:46 Checkm8 wrote:
I've said this before in the Redeye thread, and I'll say it again here: The main problem with this are the people who go cry foul over it on the internet and publicizing every damn thing.
If you were harrassed, go to the damn court. Are they just decor to you? What's the difference of admitting it in court to posting it online anonymously or not in terms of being known?
This is not victim blaming. My main point is that instead of going on public, look for remedies inside your own industry or in court. In some countries, everything that's happening right now can be considered online libel.
Again, I do not say that it's the victim's fault for being victimized. I do not say that what Tobi or any of the other people's actions are good or even excusable. What I'm saying is that this situation could've been handled better.
And "make Dota a better place"? What a joke. All it's doing is stripping the old powers and replacing it with the new.
It's also raising a bar for acceptable behaviour and giving victims an avenue to be heard. Was it the best path to making dota a better place? No, probably not. Does that mean it can't be momentum for a good thing? I dun think so.
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Estonia4504 Posts
Just checking - Could him wanting to advocate for teaching "White Australia" policies not have a non-white supremacist view in this context?
From my reading, as he was speaking about defending aboriginal history, he appeared to be talking about teaching about the policies which were supposed to bring about as white of an Australia as possible. And it's also true what he says about racism within the White Nationalism community - Mediterraneans and Irish people were frequently not considered white. Because the whole theory of a historical White Identity is complete BS.
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On July 03 2020 11:49 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 09:46 Checkm8 wrote:
I've said this before in the Redeye thread, and I'll say it again here: The main problem with this are the people who go cry foul over it on the internet and publicizing every damn thing.
If you were harrassed, go to the damn court. Are they just decor to you? What's the difference of admitting it in court to posting it online anonymously or not in terms of being known?
This is not victim blaming. My main point is that instead of going on public, look for remedies inside your own industry or in court. In some countries, everything that's happening right now can be considered online libel.
Again, I do not say that it's the victim's fault for being victimized. I do not say that what Tobi or any of the other people's actions are good or even excusable. What I'm saying is that this situation could've been handled better.
And "make Dota a better place"? What a joke. All it's doing is stripping the old powers and replacing it with the new. It's also raising a bar for acceptable behaviour and giving victims an avenue to be heard. Was it the best path to making dota a better place? No, probably not. Does that mean it can't be momentum for a good thing? I dun think so.
Should also be pointed out that some of these issues were brought up in private and no one bothered to investigate or address them.
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I have been looking around on different sites to try to find information about this since the story broke, but I haven't been able to find information regarding the criminal investigations against Tobiwan, since ofcourse charges must have been filed with the police at this stage since the evidence is said to clearly prove he has commited either rape or sexual assault/harassment which are both serious crimes, does anyone have any updates?
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On July 03 2020 00:03 saocyn wrote:New Accusations against toby With Text Messages https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8ehttps://twitter.com/GenghisKhatt/status/1277349375165861888STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper. The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable. "i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting.
Did that woman just say "power dynamics" ? WTF? That is so demeaning to woman, its treating grown ass hairy fucking woman as little children, as if they are unable to make decisions on their own and Toby a fucking commentator on a semi successful game (back in 2014-2017) like god! Toby a fucking commentator on a semi successful video game is god and this grown ass woman is a small child with no brains and can't think for her own, so this god Toby abused his godliness to flirt with her. Jesus Christ!
Yeah Dota 2 is very popular right now and for the past several years, but from 2013-2017 it wasn't so big, yeah it had gamers play it, but overshadowed by most other games like CS:GO, LOL, WOW, SC2, GTA 5, etc... Commentators were hardly getting paid serious money outside of TI and we even had several major commentators complain that not getting invited at TI is a financial disaster for them, because even if they did 10 events they still get paid more for just doing a TI.
So again taking just this article, its clear that the whole thing is a joke. Grown ass woman ARE responsible for their OWN actions, they are NOT children, they are GROWN ASS ADULTS with full comprehension of consent.
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On July 08 2020 02:33 PlayerofDota wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 00:03 saocyn wrote:New Accusations against toby With Text Messages https://medium.com/@genghiskhatt/about-toby-dawson-again-fb1adef6ac8ehttps://twitter.com/GenghisKhatt/status/1277349375165861888STOP sympathizing with toby. No one cares about how good his "casting" was. He's a Rapist and a predator, end of story. If you care more about your enjoyment of dota than the victims of his predatory behavior you are part of the problem which enables it. We're not here to talk about his casting, we're here to talk about his crimes. I don't care what you think about how much he contributed to the community, he equally destroyed it. He enriched himself while preying on the community he brought up, so no he didn't contribute anything to it. Dota will be better off without him so the actual people who are deserving of his spot can come fourth now that he's not a gatekeeper. The audacity of him attempting to teach "White History" Clearly he couldn't teach it in Australia, so he moved to the UK so he could continue his racist rhetoric. Probably a White Power supporter too behind closed doors. Not surprised he chose UK as a destination. Just look at how he tries to spin the narrative of being held accountable. "i'm building an esports university, i'm putting my daughter to bed now" like just shut up. you're not doing anything in this community and you're not a member who contributed to it. The only thing you should be doing is sitting in a jail cell reflecting. Did that woman just say "power dynamics" ? WTF? That is so demeaning to woman, its treating grown ass hairy fucking woman as little children, as if they are unable to make decisions on their own and Toby a fucking commentator on a semi successful game (back in 2014-2017) like god! Toby a fucking commentator on a semi successful video game is god and this grown ass woman is a small child with no brains and can't think for her own, so this god Toby abused his godliness to flirt with her. Jesus Christ! Yeah Dota 2 is very popular right now and for the past several years, but from 2013-2017 it wasn't so big, yeah it had gamers play it, but overshadowed by most other games like CS:GO, LOL, WOW, SC2, GTA 5, etc... Commentators were hardly getting paid serious money outside of TI and we even had several major commentators complain that not getting invited at TI is a financial disaster for them, because even if they did 10 events they still get paid more for just doing a TI. So again taking just this article, its clear that the whole thing is a joke. Grown ass woman ARE responsible for their OWN actions, they are NOT children, they are GROWN ASS ADULTS with full comprehension of consent.
I have had semilar ideas is this. The whole idelogy of metoo and power dynamics reduced the adult women to some kind of person with out the willpower to say what she want and doesn't want. It describe women as fragile beings without mind and will.
For me some of the same ideas was the reason why women should not have the right to vote about one hundred years ago.
I know a male has more physical strength in general then women, and I don't think you should force women phisical or by threat to something they don't want, but I want and expect that a person should put a stop to it (if not drugged or in sleep etc.)
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I'm sorry you feel like a caster (or man) you respect was unfairly cancelled. I -get- the anger as a response, and get feeling like some aspect of your person is attacked alongside this caster. I think that the perspective of "the whole thing is a joke", however, HAS to be rooted in ignorance, and I encourage you to go over all the public claims made against Toby, and the people that back and support those claims, and think about your stance for a bit.
Also, "Power Dynamics" isn't a gendered phrase. If a dude waiter at a restaurant has a woman he's serving say "I'd love to sit on your face" to him and he doesn't have the freedom to say "That's fucking gross, what the hell" without fear of getting fired, that's power dynamics. It has nothing to do with him being a grown ass adult.
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On July 08 2020 03:05 Fleetfeet wrote:
I'm sorry you feel like a caster (or man) you respect was unfairly cancelled. I -get- the anger as a response, and get feeling like some aspect of your person is attacked alongside this caster. I think that the perspective of "the whole thing is a joke", however, HAS to be rooted in ignorance, and I encourage you to go over all the public claims made against Toby, and the people that back and support those claims, and think about your stance for a bit.
Also, "Power Dynamics" isn't a gendered phrase. If a dude waiter at a restaurant has a woman he's serving say "I'd love to sit on your face" to him and he doesn't have the freedom to say "That's fucking gross, what the hell" without fear of getting fired, that's power dynamics. It has nothing to do with him being a grown ass adult.
OK the fear of lossing a job is power dynimic, then why are so many people going off on enablers.
It's some how easier to loss job or income to stand up for some one else then then the victim standing up for her self. It's a moral improgative to stand up for other people but not for your self. This is not the real world and never will be.
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On July 07 2020 22:20 Mosquitesterone wrote:
I have been looking around on different sites to try to find information about this since the story broke, but I haven't been able to find information regarding the criminal investigations against Tobiwan, since ofcourse charges must have been filed with the police at this stage since the evidence is said to clearly prove he has commited either rape or sexual assault/harassment which are both serious crimes, does anyone have any updates?
I know you're just being a total asshole but I figured I'd point out that the police almost never charge people for sexual assault or rape.
When multiple women are raising red flags and providing evidence to the people in the industry it's fully within that industry's right to decide they no longer wish to do business with them. If someone accused you of sexually assaulting them at work any company worth it's shit would investigate. They'd interview witnesses, they'd ask for texts or emails, and if they concluded that you were more than likely guilty of what you were accused of they'd absolutely fire your ass.
The burden of proof for criminal charges is way way way higher than this as you're taking away a human being's freedom. In most western countries (and especially the United States) if your employer has a probable cause to end your employment that's all it really takes.
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Yeah, in the US only about 4.6% of sexual assaults / rapes result in an arrest. Less than 1% end in convictions (source). The vast majority of these crimes, in almost any western country, are ignored by local authorities.
When you talk about eSports events and you have people from different countries congregated into a third country it gets even more messed up to try and file criminal charges. Most women don't get any sort of justice.
So, yes, people who say to involve the authorities are either uninformed or are intentionally suggesting a solution that won't actually do anything.
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On July 08 2020 03:21 Sapaio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2020 03:05 Fleetfeet wrote:
I'm sorry you feel like a caster (or man) you respect was unfairly cancelled. I -get- the anger as a response, and get feeling like some aspect of your person is attacked alongside this caster. I think that the perspective of "the whole thing is a joke", however, HAS to be rooted in ignorance, and I encourage you to go over all the public claims made against Toby, and the people that back and support those claims, and think about your stance for a bit.
Also, "Power Dynamics" isn't a gendered phrase. If a dude waiter at a restaurant has a woman he's serving say "I'd love to sit on your face" to him and he doesn't have the freedom to say "That's fucking gross, what the hell" without fear of getting fired, that's power dynamics. It has nothing to do with him being a grown ass adult. OK the fear of lossing a job is power dynimic, then why are so many people going off on enablers. It's some how easier to loss job or income to stand up for some one else then then the victim standing up for her self. It's a moral improgative to stand up for other people but not for your self. This is not the real world and never will be.
I'd reply sensibly, but I genuinely cannot figure out what you're trying to say. Do you mind trying to rephrase this for me?
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Sorry what I mean is many factors in the power dynamic people describe, fear of loss of job, income and social status, friendships. Between the casters and victims.
These factors are very semilar to reasons why the enablers didn't step in.
So i have a bit of difficulty with the logic that in one case you should take this factors in to account, but when you talk about enablers they should be totally disregarded.
Also another thing i have been thinking about is the claim that it is harder for women caster to get jobs. Has there been numbers that show a difference between male/female players and male/female casters ratio or other studies to support this claim
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On July 08 2020 11:36 Sapaio wrote:
...
Also another thing i have been thinking about is the claim that it is harder for women caster to get jobs. Has there been numbers that show a difference between male/female players and male/female casters ratio or other studies to support this claim
i don't exactly think you need numbers to rationalize this one to a reasonable level.
the final result is that the caster gets the job over another individual because of their merits. i don't think that has ever really changed in esports. if the level of skill is similar, then maybe gender comes into the equation.
but we consider how many girls actually play the games that they will commentate,
then at a good level so that they are confident and knowledgeable.
the ratio of men to women in the first place has got to be 10:1 in DotA 2. even it would be 5:1, 2:1, the odds would be lowered.
at some point (huge grain of salt here) Kips mentions that it's 5% of all dota players, not considering the pro ranks.
so rather than it being about sexism, it's just about the numbers, however small they are.
there are just not enough who go through the motions to become extremely good and then to get noticed and hired.
just for EN talent from 2014 to now, there have been about ~30 active commentators/analysts who were male, compared to maybe ~4 total female ones. this is all for major events.
frankly speaking, i'm surprised we've even had any.
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On July 08 2020 11:36 Sapaio wrote:
Sorry what I mean is many factors in the power dynamic people describe, fear of loss of job, income and social status, friendships. Between the casters and victims.
These factors are very semilar to reasons why the enablers didn't step in.
So i have a bit of difficulty with the logic that in one case you should take this factors in to account, but when you talk about enablers they should be totally disregarded.
Also another thing i have been thinking about is the claim that it is harder for women caster to get jobs. Has there been numbers that show a difference between male/female players and male/female casters ratio or other studies to support this claim
Ah, gotcha. I hear you.
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