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On June 27 2020 01:57 Pr0wler wrote:
As far as I am concerned, TobiWan is innocent until proven otherwise. Anyone can make up stories for whatever reason. Sexual assault is a felony, if Tobi's accusers think that they have a strong case, they should bring it in court. Otherwise he has every right to sue them for damaging his career and reputation.
This is how things work in civilised society... Not in the era of social media brainwashing... I guess.
Amorality isn't a crime.
Do you condone amoral behaviour? Do you want our community's figurehead to be a predatory prick?
Because that's what you're saying
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On June 27 2020 01:57 Pr0wler wrote:
As far as I am concerned, TobiWan is innocent until proven otherwise. Anyone can make up stories for whatever reason. Sexual assault is a felony, if Tobi's accusers think that they have a strong case, they should bring it in court. Otherwise he has every right to sue them for damaging his career and reputation.
This is how things work in civilised society... Not in the era of social media brainwashing... I guess.
Seriously? Did you not read the tweets above yours? Like what the fuck?
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You talk about the court of social media, yet demand people's private lives be publicized so that you can make the final judgment on whether someone went too far. What gives you the authority to make these demands? People don't walk around recording their lives in video.
Take a step back and reflect seriously on if your motives behind your statements are pure. Do you care about this for the victims involved, or because of how it affects you? Does losing something (a caster you find entertaining) impact your interpretation of events?
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I read them. When we are talking about felony accusations tweeter is the last thing I take ino account. The person is innocent untill there is court decision. BTS is a private company and can fire whoever and for whatever reason they decide. Of course it's then up for the fired person to sue them for wrongful termination, depending on the contract.
There is a reason why the justice system exists. Playing judge and jury on tweeter/Facebook is just a barbaric way to execute this process.
Edit. I don't demand for anything. Other people are demanding heads on a platter, because of Twitter posts. I'm just expressing my disagreement and disappointment with the way this situation is handled.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him.
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On June 27 2020 02:29 Pr0wler wrote:
I read them. When we are talking about felony accusations tweeter is the last thing I take ino account. The person is innocent untill there is court decision. BTS is a private company and can fire whoever and for whatever reason they decide. Of course it's then up for the fired person to sue them for wrongful termination, depending on the contract.
There is a reason why the justice system exists. Playing judge and jury on tweeter/Facebook is just a barbaric way to execute this process.
You don't have to believe he is innocent or guilty.
But you also don't have to defend someone that is very likely guilty of sexual assault and possibly rape. Companies can choose to work with whomever they want and the fact that every major studio, and Valve, believes these allegations are credible is proof enough for me to believe we don't need TobiWan anywhere near the Dota scene now or ever again.
It doesn't matter what you or I think though because we're never going to see another Toby cast again. And, in my opinion, that is wonderful news.
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People who keep saying "Until proven guilty in a court of law they are innocent" are confusing two things. They are innocent of a CRIME (punishable by their government) until proven innocent (at least in the US). That doesn't actually mean they are innocent.
Lets break it down, is Tobi denying the allegations and fighting for his innocence? No
https://twitter.com/TobiWanDOTA
Is there evidence that is corroborated by multiple people who have seen it?
On June 27 2020 01:15 saocyn wrote:
Od Pixel's Confirmation on Evidence Shared
LD's Confirmation of Evidence Shared
YES
On June 27 2020 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him.
SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
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On June 27 2020 02:23 TomatoBisque wrote:
Does losing something (a caster you find entertaining) impact your interpretation of events?
This is a pretty big takeaway. I imagine a good number of people acting all defensive for Toby are too stubborn or too cowardly to burn their idols.
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What Tobi did was bad enough that it got Valve to react almost instantly. Valve is not a company known for reacting to things.
We may not know the details of what happened but it was probably pretty fucked up.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 02:40 Spook wrote:
Valve is not a company known for reacting to things.
This did make me laugh.
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LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future.
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It's interesting how nobody knew anything (or just didn't care) before the tweets happened. Then all of a sudden, in a day, they gather the evidence to fire someone and to proclaim him rapist.
I see two possibilities here.
1. They knew and didn't care and now their hand is forced.
2. The last thing they need after the pandemic is being cancelled... So a person or two is a fair price.
This is how things work in the social media brainwashing era.
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On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not.
Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations
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LD is also probably having to balance his role in BTS and therefore as representative of co-workers and colleagues as well as a prominent community member and individual. To an extent he'll feel forced to speak the corporate language no matter what his feelings individually are, as he is not speaking only for himself.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 03:06 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not. Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations
How are they distracting from Llama's accusations?
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On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self.
I completely agree that Zyori's case seem very light, and possibly says more about the victim, that him isolated - unless this has a pattern, which seeking Kips in NL after a No, seems to suggest. However, that said, as it stands, I find these things pretty innocent interaction of a boy in love with a girl, rather than abuse or misuse of power.
Calling them survivors is more emotional than formal. Setting a scene using an emotional and melodramatic connotation that far exceeds reality is trying to use it for some sort of effect, that is completely unnecessary. If there is a difference in narrative between these two instances(Grant and Tobi), it shows he addresses them trying to protect one(including himself and his studio), and witch hunting another.
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On June 27 2020 03:06 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:58 Dracolich70 wrote:
LD's tweet is pretty melodramatic, which I find incredibly suspect. These allegations speak for themselves, and the victims to a large degree without the use of melodramatic narration. Using words of "survivors", is telling me he is trying to wash his own hands. Hell, a lot of these things have happened on his watch. Two of the men under fire are close friends of his for years(Grant and Zyori). It's probably better that BTS closed its operations and that guy disappeared from the scene as well. With his resurface into casting, is he trying to wedge his way into TI casting jobs? I hope not. Everything coming out of BTS reeks of pr and trying to distract from the llama accusations This is how I feel too.
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On June 27 2020 02:33 YourGoodFriend wrote:People who keep saying "Until proven guilty in a court of law they are innocent" are confusing two things. They are innocent of a CRIME (punishable by their government) until proven innocent (at least in the US). That doesn't actually mean they are innocent. Lets break it down, is Tobi denying the allegations and fighting for his innocence? No https://twitter.com/TobiWanDOTAIs there evidence that is corroborated by multiple people who have seen it? YES Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:30 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't need to wait for a court decision to make my mind up on whether I think someone deserves respect or not.
And for that, I will never be the one to make a decision on whether someone can go to jail. But I can decide whether to watch him, and their employer can decide whether to continue employing him. SO in this case to ME he is guilty until proven innocent
As much as I dislike punishment outside the legal system and cancel culture this is a good way of handling it. It is also good that there is clear evidence and that it can be shown to reliable representatives of the community.
Although I personally feel that there is always a moral imperitive to report a known crime. Most countries have statue of limitations of more than 10 years so that should still be an option.
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Lalalaland34491 Posts
On June 27 2020 03:16 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 03:02 Firebolt145 wrote:
Grant is heavily under fire and I buy into LD's reasoning for believing his redemption arc, because I bought into it too.
Zyori's accusations are nowhere near as severe, and those that I have read so far look more like nuanced misunderstandings and awkwardness rather than outright sexual harassment.
LD's tweet sounds a bit more formal than emotional, more a 'setting the scene' kind of tweet rather than 'this is how I truly feel'. The first type of tweet is faster and simpler to make, and it's perhaps a good idea to do one of those quickly before rumours spiral out of control (eg, no I did not pay Grant's legal fees). I have hope that he will release a more true-to-self statement in the future. But as it stands, the allegation on Grant seems far more severe, and it has also caused him to disappear from this scene. That there was a redemption arc, still leaves the knowledge of actions happening, that didn't surface until now, and Grant during his most successful moments in his entirety of his years, has stepped down from this scene as a result of his former self.
Perhaps I misunderstand - what point are you making here?
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