|
Personal attack = Ban.
Please behave |
On October 14 2016 00:52 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 00:32 Eywa- wrote:On October 13 2016 22:04 wims80 wrote:On October 13 2016 13:34 Eywa- wrote:On October 13 2016 11:35 Lancehead wrote:On October 13 2016 11:14 Eywa- wrote:On October 13 2016 10:26 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out. You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself. I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed. I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract. @Spudde123 I like your post a lot. What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team. How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know. Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again? We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket. So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head. @Duck- I really like your posts. So basically you're saying, Fly, n0tail, EE, Misery and w33's experiences are irrelevant, and only Pie's experience is relevant? That's some next level mental gymnastics.
I'm not saying that their opinions are irrelevant and if you read my posts, I'm not even saying that there is anything conclusively disproving what they're saying. All I'm saying is I don't think that everything they are saying should be taken as fact.
IIRC the only thing they've all reported in common is the late payments, there is some new stuff with the latest iteration of the team in EE, Misery and w33... So throwing Fly and n0tail in there is pretty irrelevant given that the late payments is pretty well confirmed and I haven't been discussing that portion at all in my posts.
The question they're posing and they're posing it to the public rather than the justice system is:
"Are we entitled to this money? We feel that it's the case, if you do too, please shame secret and try to get them banned."
You disagree with the ethics of team secret even if they aren't guilty of most of what they're being accused... But you don't disagree with the ethics of what the raging exits are doing?
The question I was bringing up with Pie is, would any of these players complain about it and quit if they were currently on the team? There are currently 4 players on that team not including Puppey, if they continue to compete together, one can only assume that they are okay with how Secret works.
|
On October 14 2016 05:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 13:09 Baarn wrote:On October 13 2016 11:35 Lancehead wrote:On October 13 2016 11:14 Eywa- wrote:On October 13 2016 10:26 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out. https://twitter.com/w33haa/status/785227455422427136You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself. I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed. I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract. @Spudde123 I like your post a lot. What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team. How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know. It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts. Just so we're clear here, you think it's as likely that about ten people are lying about this to cause trouble as it is that two people are lying about it to cover their misdeeds?
The 10% thing was reported with the latest iteration of the team, to the best of my knowledge, you seem to be grouping together several different incidents and giving a blanket statement of "10 people reported this" rather than "3 people reported this and 10 people reported that". Despite EE releasing it all in one blog, the events are not necessarily tied and not necessarily remotely close to being for the same reasons.
|
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
|
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says:
"Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share."
His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances.
The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
|
On October 14 2016 09:10 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty. Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players. Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
this still doesnt make the 10% cut not being communicated at any point any better. im sure if they said straight up hey we take 10% for housing/food etc, i doubt anyone would have an issue with it.
i guess what it comes down to is that puppey's grand idea of a team "owned" by the players really isnt true and secret is no better than a scumbag team, who may or may not (probably more towards may) be stealing from their own players and not paying them, and the players who have left are just confirming that.
|
Malevolent or not, it's still embezzlement
|
On October 14 2016 09:33 wims80 wrote:
Malevolent or not, it's still embezzlement
Alleged embezzlement.
No one actually knows what the verbal agreements were made, if any of them were forgotten or inadvertently dismissed.
|
On October 14 2016 05:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 13:09 Baarn wrote:On October 13 2016 11:35 Lancehead wrote:On October 13 2016 11:14 Eywa- wrote:On October 13 2016 10:26 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out. https://twitter.com/w33haa/status/785227455422427136You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself. I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed. I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract. @Spudde123 I like your post a lot. What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team. How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know. It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts. Just so we're clear here, you think it's as likely that about ten people are lying about this to cause trouble as it is that two people are lying about it to cover their misdeeds?
It doesn't matter if anyone is lying or not. For example, "we told him or her before joining the team." Player joined the team and the implied contract when into effect. Now if they signed a document like I suggested then everything would be laid out in a way to protect team secret and the player if a later dispute arises. You don't like it then you can walk away just like in the non written agreement. Like I said it's their words against team secrets words at this point. The 10% argument isn't going to amount to much. I mean you can terminate at any time, right? Besides envy and team secret could've agreed that pigs can fly and both agreed it is possible for all we know?
|
On October 14 2016 09:44 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 09:33 wims80 wrote:
Malevolent or not, it's still embezzlement Alleged embezzlement. No one actually knows what the verbal agreements were made, if any of them were forgotten or inadvertently dismissed.
Thing with oral contracts is that it is so hard to prove. It's always your word vs mine. Judges listen to arguments, evaluate and opine what they believe to be the 'facts' of the case, which will then form the basis for their decisions. Because these 'facts' are simply the judge's interpretation of how the events played out, they are not necessarily true contrary to the meaning of the word.
It's always going to be an alleged embezzlement unless secret admits to it.
|
oral promise is not oral contract. even a false oral promise can have different intention: pervasive or good will. most of EE's "facts" are mixed with emotion, the only solid evidence is delayed payment. seem like he is taking the management role of NP, which would be too much for a immature person to handle.
|
On October 14 2016 11:28 HolyPepsi wrote:
oral promise is not oral contract. even a false oral promise can have different intention: pervasive or good will. most of EE's "facts" are mixed with emotion, the only solid evidence is delayed payment. seem like he is taking the management role of NP, which would be too much for a immature person to handle.
I think by your standards, 90% of western esports organizations in Dota and SC2 have immature management. I think NP will be fine.
|
@Eywa-
No, actually, it's totally irrelevant what they've been doing with the money. You can't act exactly the opposite of how you claim you would and steal from your employees and say "Yeah but I bought them lunch." That's not an argument. Especially not when it's totally unclear where the money has actually gone. If Secret had stated straight up that there was going to be a 10% cut then that's fine. The issue is they didn't. And the issue is linked in with their overall poor behaviour with regard to money.
And I don't get why people are bringing up the legal issue. Who the fuck cares? Nobody is going to court over this, clearly. So the issue is whether Puppey and Kemal did something wrong. And yes, telling your teammates there's going to be no cut, and then secretly taking a cut - along with the other issues - that's wrong. This isn't some difficult borderline case here.
|
Who cares if X, Y or Z would stand up in a court of law? The standard of evidence required to produce a guilty verdict is extremely high (as it should be), but where there's enough smoke (several players corroborating stories of massive shadiness) I'm going to form an opinion that Secret and probably Puppey are likely stealing from their players. If Secret fanboys want to tie themselves in knots to explain some improbable scenario where it's all a big misunderstanding (or all the players are lying) then that's their business.
|
This will never go to court, so any talk of contracts or legality is irrelevant.
Secret is another shady org and that's about it. Now the public and other players have been made aware of it, and that's all this is.
|
Whether Kemal or Puppey had any bad intentions idk (at least they are incredibly negligent and incompetent), but the way the organization is set up is completely messed up imo. Of course the responsibility is on EE, Misery & co to make sure they have an actual contract that has the terms as they expect them to be. But the big PandaTV money cut (which is stated to pay for the house, employee salaries, salaries of players in other divisions, etc.) and the 10% cut (what is this paying then?) makes it so that Secret takes money generated by the dota players and gives it to other divisions and possibly the owners. There's nothing "illegal" about this if it doesn't go against agreements but it's incredible to me how Secret would be set up like this given the reasoning for making Secret in the first place. To me the idea clearly was to set up a team that allows players to benefit. The organization serves to help the players play and get them endorsements, and if they succeed in getting sponsorships everyone gets paid more. The organization isn't there to stash the cash so one owner can get rich.
In this case given that Kemal came along and Secret started recruiting teams for different games, I always just assumed that Kemal put down a hefty initial investment and is paying all these teams salaries either because he just likes it and has the cash to throw around or he thinks he can make the money back in the future by building Secret into something. But it doesn't seem his money is actually paying for almost anything, and instead the team is using the income generated by the dota team to pay for everything. How someone thought this is a reasonable solution is beyond me, even if there aren't contracts set up. Especially considering that before the PandaTV deal even the dota players didn't have any sort of salary.
Concerning NP if EE can get a deal with a Chinese streaming platform for even remotely similar money as Secret had, there's little else he has to do to make the team run smoothly. All players can get a reasonable salary from that and you can pay for the help you have, all the possible prize money can go straight to the players and you don't have to stress about running after sponsors. If they get more sponsors or hire someone in the team to take charge of that side of things then great, but that one deal alone can make everything really easy.
|
On October 14 2016 09:10 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty. Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players. Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
You are repeating what Envy wrote, actually. He said to Puppey that he would have been ok with Kemal/Ppy paying for expenses with the 10%. Yet, it was not communicated that they did it this way. Either they payed it themselves - which would be fine - or they used 10 uncommunicated percent for what they claimed to have payed themselves - which is not fine at all. Envy felt cheated since it is possible that this way he payed all the "extras" with his own money without even knowing. If ppy or Kemal used their own money, the extra expenses wouldn't be an issue. As discussed before, the main problem is, that they didn't communicate what the money would be used for in any way. A propper way to deal with it would have been to give everyone notice in a standard form of income/expense-excel-sheets (here in Germany you do that for taxes of a company for example ... its standard) of what money has been earned and how it was used in detail. Kemal whith his alleged business expertise that he likes to cite a lot should have handled it more professionally in particular! (Or is this expertise maybe the problem, since businesses often like to maximise their income at the cost of their employees?) This way, everyone would have known. It would have been the open and player friendly environment, Puppey was pretending to foster in creating TeamSecret. It is not really open, if you have to force people to tell you. They should do it by themselves, regularly, and not try to find loopholes or covering them. Otherwise it's really not the organisation that Puppey was advocating. The late payments are of course another bad thing, but I think everything else deserves attention and transparency as well.
|
Does Kemal actually own and run any businesses? Have he ever done that? It seems to me that he's just the "playboy" son of a billionaire ... I can't find anything on the internet that describes his businesses other than Secret ... not that I've spent a lot of time looking, but everything I've come over has been related to Team Secret
|
On October 13 2016 13:12 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 01:20 Asjo wrote:On October 13 2016 01:09 Baarn wrote:On October 13 2016 01:05 Asjo wrote:On October 13 2016 01:01 Baarn wrote:On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings. Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who? Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate. I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see  Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it. I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself ( this comment, for instance). Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already. Kemal could use the money the team wins to eat lobster and drink whiskey 3 times a day for the past 2 years? He could use the money to buy houses, boats, or jewelry for his wife? The list goes on. It's clear he spent money for that team house. It's clear he sent them all over the planet, bought dinners and they had a lavish lifestyle. They paid a porn star. Probably paid for a bunch more shit EE didn't mention or forgot about.
Well..
![[image loading]](http://imganaliz.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages/YeniFotoAnaliz/004/SADIKO%C4%9ELU'NUN%20Y%C3%9CZER%20EV%C4%B0/08.jpg)
This is his fathers... Boat? (In Turkey we called it "floatinghouse" I don't know if i can use the same term in English) Sadikoglu's are always has been controversial figures in Turkey. His father kidnapped at Iraq. They payed 1 million for ransom money. Also his father is reaaally good at finding loopholes in government. That "floatinghouse" anchored Turkey's one of the most beautiful cove for years. Even local protests didn't stop them.
|
On October 15 2016 02:43 Aceace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 13:12 Baarn wrote:On October 13 2016 01:20 Asjo wrote:On October 13 2016 01:09 Baarn wrote:On October 13 2016 01:05 Asjo wrote:On October 13 2016 01:01 Baarn wrote:On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings. Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who? Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate. I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it. I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself ( this comment, for instance). Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already. Kemal could use the money the team wins to eat lobster and drink whiskey 3 times a day for the past 2 years? He could use the money to buy houses, boats, or jewelry for his wife? The list goes on. It's clear he spent money for that team house. It's clear he sent them all over the planet, bought dinners and they had a lavish lifestyle. They paid a porn star. Probably paid for a bunch more shit EE didn't mention or forgot about. Well.. This is his fathers... Boat? (In Turkey we called it "floatinghouse" I don't know if i can use the same term in English) Sadikoglu's are always has been controversial figures in Turkey. His father kidnapped at Iraq. They payed 1 million for ransom money. Also his father is reaaally good at finding loopholes in government. That "floatinghouse" anchored Turkey's one of the most beautiful cove for years. Even local protests didn't stop them.
English equivalent is probably Yacht, which has the same kind of implications.
(likely not the same as a "house boat")
|
On October 14 2016 09:10 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty. Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players. Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things. It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says: "Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share." His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances. The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
Your sense of logic is so screwed up. It's ok to steal the 10% without telling them because they used a portion of it on food? How is what they used it on even relevant?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
