Team Secret, a transparent organization for the players, this is what everyone first thought. I was proud to be part of such an organization when I first joined the team, I’m sure everybody was then. I asked Puppey whether it was difficult being a player and an owner. I was told that it wasn’t a burden, but instead something that empowers him, that I shouldn’t worry, just focus on the game. I was told that Kemal is a very successful man with multiple global businesses and he'll take care of us. Sometimes at a LAN we would talk about the future of Secret, Puppey would talk about how other organizations are fucking their players and how Secret will be different. That Secret will be the first team in DotA to get a 5 figure monthly salary. At first I thought it was just a joke, or something simply hopeful. But as we had the same conversation over and over again I started to believe that it could be real. Although during these times I didn’t get paid any salary, I didn’t think much about it and still chose to believe. I’m sure the rest of my team did as well. Here we are now, after more than a year has passed. After talking to a multitude of people, including previous Secret members, I have decided to write this blog.
So, drama is back on the menu, and after all these allegations, I wonder if Puppey's days as AAA player and captain are over. This is some heavy stuff.
MOD EDIT: Misery also released his side of things:
For sure, after the ex-Secret players no payments drama, and now this, i can't respect Puppey as much as before, while Kemal never convinced me at first.
Still, i don't understand two things tough:
- Why PieLieDie is still in Secret if everything Envy says is true; - Why Arteezy came back to Secret and only had good words for Puppey after the first leave?
On October 10 2016 03:53 Zea! wrote: For sure, after the ex-Secret players no payments drama, and now this, i can't respect Puppey as much as before, while Kemal never convinced me at first.
Still, i don't understand two things tough:
- Why PieLieDie is still in Secret if everything Envy says is true; - Why Arteezy came back to Secret and only had good words for Puppey after the first leave?
rtz is the biggest star in the west so keeping him happy would be a top priority
On October 10 2016 03:53 Zea! wrote: For sure, after the ex-Secret players no payments drama, and now this, i can't respect Puppey as much as before, while Kemal never convinced me at first.
Still, i don't understand two things tough:
- Why PieLieDie is still in Secret if everything Envy says is true; - Why Arteezy came back to Secret and only had good words for Puppey after the first leave?
PLD may not have that many options. If he wants to make a living from dota Secret may be his best chance even with all the shit. Maybe he could join some Alliance stack but other than that I don't think he has that many options.
On October 10 2016 04:12 Emnjay808 wrote: Oh baby how juicy. Furthering my dislike for the organization. And making me also wonder why Puppey still chooses to affiliate himself with them.
Uh this blog places Puppey and the organisation in very much the same light
On October 10 2016 04:12 Emnjay808 wrote: Oh baby how juicy. Furthering my dislike for the organization. And making me also wonder why Puppey still chooses to affiliate himself with them.
If you'd have read the blog, you'd know Puppey doesn't look good at all in the picture EE paints about the org and team.
On October 10 2016 03:53 Zea! wrote: For sure, after the ex-Secret players no payments drama, and now this, i can't respect Puppey as much as before, while Kemal never convinced me at first.
Still, i don't understand two things tough:
- Why PieLieDie is still in Secret if everything Envy says is true; - Why Arteezy came back to Secret and only had good words for Puppey after the first leave?
PLD may not have that many options. If he wants to make a living from dota Secret may be his best chance even with all the shit. Maybe he could join some Alliance stack but other than that I don't think he has that many options.
I think so, there's no other t1 team looking for supports if he wants to stay in the EU and going t2 means unreliable tournament appearances. Arteezy might have been convinced, I mean Puppey knows how to look as the great leader.
Throughout the year he has always been lazy. At first I thought that he was just burnt out after losing TI5 and I accepted all that but eventually I realized it’s just how he is. All the way till the TI bootcamp in late mid June, he almost never plays any pubs. He played like on average less than 5 pubs per month. This only changed when TI was approaching and one time where he played 10 Earth spirit games after MDL. He would always claim that he was busy from Secret and other responsibilities. But even during our bootcamps or the tournament itself, he would only be playing custom games
now we know from where soo many missing kunnka torrents came from lmao
Throughout the year he has always been lazy. At first I thought that he was just burnt out after losing TI5 and I accepted all that but eventually I realized it’s just how he is. All the way till the TI bootcamp in late mid June, he almost never plays any pubs. He played like on average less than 5 pubs per month. This only changed when TI was approaching and one time where he played 10 Earth spirit games after MDL. He would always claim that he was busy from Secret and other responsibilities. But even during our bootcamps or the tournament itself, he would only be playing custom games
now we know from where soo many missing kunnka torrents came from lmao
Do you think he at least reads the patch notes? Or does someone have to summarize them for him basically?
On October 10 2016 03:53 Zea! wrote: For sure, after the ex-Secret players no payments drama, and now this, i can't respect Puppey as much as before, while Kemal never convinced me at first.
Still, i don't understand two things tough:
- Why PieLieDie is still in Secret if everything Envy says is true; - Why Arteezy came back to Secret and only had good words for Puppey after the first leave?
PLD may not have that many options. If he wants to make a living from dota Secret may be his best chance even with all the shit. Maybe he could join some Alliance stack but other than that I don't think he has that many options.
Might have been able to play for Liquid instead of Bulba? Sure would have made a lot of the fans less whiny at least.
Well, kinda hard to have any respect left for Puppey after this. I doubt EE is lying or making things up, you can have many oppinions on the man, but I don't think anyone would call him a liar (well, maybe PPY will say something along those lines now). Good thing EE wrote this, things like this shouldn't be happening in the pro scene.
Maybe Kermal is just using Secret as a way to launder money :D
I had such a bias view about Puppey being a good guy. Mostly cause I keep giving him the benefit of the doubt. Sad to see such a respectable player go down this route.
Just like the previous issues with Notail ,Fly, S4 and RTZ but guess what in a month everyone will forget about this and Cyborgmatt / Ppy or w/e will get away with this, because nobody actualy cares.
Remember when people were asking if EE , w33 and co were getting payed? I do and nobody said a word.
On October 10 2016 05:10 Pegas wrote: Just like the previous issues with Notail ,Fly, S4 and RTZ but guess what in a month everyone will forget about this and Cyborgmatt / Ppy or w/e will get away with this, because nobody actualy cares.
Remember when people were asking if EE , w33 and co were getting payed? I do and nobody said a word.
I'm not sure you should include Cyborgmatt with Puppey any more, it sounds like he was fucked as much as the others.
On October 10 2016 05:10 Pegas wrote: Just like the previous issues with Notail ,Fly, S4 and RTZ but guess what in a month everyone will forget about this and Cyborgmatt / Ppy or w/e will get away with this, because nobody actualy cares.
Remember when people were asking if EE , w33 and co were getting payed? I do and nobody said a word.
I'm not sure you should include Cyborgmatt with Puppey any more, it sounds like he was fucked as much as the others.
In the context of past Team Seceret issues back when Evany`s long tweet came Cyborgmatt was the person who was targeted for answers , today is Ppy , tomorrow/another time is going to be someone else. I sincerly hope the players get their money back but I`m pretty sure you understand where this is heading.
prob two sides to this story but if this is remotely true, puppey is truly a fucking disgusting individual. no one refutes his accomplishments as a player (even though his individual performances in the last 2 ti's is legit atrocious).
Withholding the salary cut from all of his teammates including pie who's still in the team, not fulfilling streaming contracts and incapable of taking the blame. there's just no excusing this sort of behavior.
MP, MidOne, and Forev are regretting their life decisions now. I wonder if Secret leaving TS6 has something to coincide with this because the players raised a ruckus about the team's structure in light of the blogs.
On October 10 2016 05:45 Zea! wrote: Do you think something will happen to Secret now? Or everything will stay the same? I'd be surprised if MP, Midone and Forev won't leave the team
Hard to say. Maybe they're still better off there than on SEA teams? Though they'd be better off on another well established western team surely.
I just realized that puppey and trump remind me of each other. Every puppey interview ever he's so insanely full of himself and he talks in total word salad just like trump. Says a lot of words that are nonsensical and actually says nothing at the end of the day. His interviews always bugged the crap out of me and I just put it together now that he does the same crap that trump does.
Also I was always lukewarm on W33ha but after this drama fuck Puppey, go on with your bad self W33ha.
Puppan is considered the willy wonka golden ticket and by this rep he managed to attract the most talented and hardest working players on his team based on the premise that they will win a lot. And fair play to all the guys who went through secret cause its pretty clear now they only did it to win and not for the money. But even if money was second it will always be a factor.
PPD isn't playing dota atm becuase he wanted a break, but I could see him making a solid second EG roster with those guys if he so desired.
He's playing. He qualified for some lan somewhere. He's dicking around still for sure.
I mean hes goofing around, but not playing on a pro team becuase he wants to take a break and EG let him do that and switch to marketing and stuff like incontrol
PPD isn't playing dota atm becuase he wanted a break, but I could see him making a solid second EG roster with those guys if he so desired.
He's playing. He qualified for some lan somewhere. He's dicking around still for sure.
I mean hes goofing around, but not playing on a pro team becuase he wants to take a break and EG let him do that and switch to marketing and stuff like incontrol
Yeah sure, which is smart really. But people think he's retired for some reason. He's said he's definitely not retired and he's still trying to keep active. I'd love to see him run EG.Secret for fun
Like I have posted on Reddit, after also reading the statement from MiSeRy:
"While I assumed that Kemal was some guy from a Turkish mobster family acting as the sugar daddy of Team Secret, it seems I was completely mistaken. I appears that he is rather a "shrewd business man" who lives off his web of lies. Therefore, he has to delay payments every time, because the delayed money are paying for the current expenses as well as the money he and Puppey possibly take for themselves. This vicious circle relies on future winnings to keep funding the show and keep the parties involved from rebelling.
I was also an avid follower of the Counter-Strike scene back when it was big, with the first few CPL tournaments and everything. In the Danish scene, they was this guy called blue_fox, who kept making promises he couldn't deliver on. He helped get some big tournaments started, but the funding as never there the first place. He helped several of the bigger teams (SoA and BlindSpot among these) secure sponsporships that turned out to be completley imaginary. He would use circumstancial evidence to prove that the sponsorships existed, and whenver there were problems with payment, he always had excuses and reasons for the sponsorship being delayed and falling through. To me knowledge, he never got any personal gain for all his deception, but enjoyed and immense popularity within the Danish Counter-Strike scene for at least a year. It seemed he was promoting the game and bring the scene to new height, but at the end it turned out he was tearing things apart. It seems that he was a compulsory liar (or just had some kind of desire for people to like him). I cannot say if it's the same for Kemal, of course, but it definitely sounds like it."
Wouldn't be surprised if all the team's bad results were a result of distractions stated by EE. Which makes it even more surprising how they pulled off winning Shanghai Major
Puppey's rep now has really gone down the toilet now
I was a huge ppy fan for like 10 years now. Things have changed now lol ppy can go and fuck himself, i have 0 respect left for him as well as 0 chance of building any. What the hell, guy, in effect, steals money from teammates and uses fighting as a last argument! Is this reality lol ?
I just really want to see players cooperate, make a real trade union and press and strike the shit out of organisations. Also, as it appears, players should sign some contracts and shit which describes what each party should do and all that technical stuff - i do believe players that they are not getting paid, but if they had a legit contract they could use legal instruments to secure their money, not turn to the public support every time.
I really think it's time for professional players to stand together against all that shit and also for us, casual players and viewers, to support them and send our fucks to shady orgs and teams.
All in all i see no point in denying credibility to EE's or Misery's blogs since they correspond to everything we know and EE's blog provides us with a lot of info. I wanna praise EE for him coming out with all of hes blogs during the recent years, he's the hero.
P.S. To me it seems that Kemal guy is def laundrying the moneyz
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
Crazy to think that these players were playing in that kind of environment. All the hype about esports being mainstream seem a bit silly when these teams are STILL being ran by manipulative shady fuckers who apparently threaten their team mates with violence.
The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
On October 10 2016 07:40 Nerfed wrote: I was a huge ppy fan for like 10 years now. Things have changed now lol ppy can go and fuck himself, i have 0 respect left for him as well as 0 chance of building any. What the hell, guy, in effect, steals money from teammates and uses fighting as a last argument! Is this reality lol ?
I just really want to see players cooperate, make a real trade union and press and strike the shit out of organisations. Also, as it appears, players should sign some contracts and shit which describes what each party should do and all that technical stuff - i do believe players that they are not getting paid, but if they had a legit contract they could use legal instruments to secure their money, not turn to the public support every time.
I really think it's time for professional players to stand together against all that shit and also for us, casual players and viewers, to support them and send our fucks to shady orgs and teams.
All in all i see no point in denying credibility to EE's or Misery's blogs since they correspond to everything we know and EE's blog provides us with a lot of info. I wanna praise EE for him coming out with all of hes blogs during the recent years, he's the hero.
P.S. To me it seems that Kemal guy is def laundrying the moneyz
Contracts and unions only work in theory right now. The only way you get a union to work is if everyone is represented. There needs to be a caster's union, a player's union, a team org union, and a tourney org union. You can never have 1 without all of the rest because everyone else is going to get screwed. Then when you consider that an given esport game only has a very finite lifespan things get super messy. It's not like MLB or the NFL where the sport is cemented in stone and the teams have been around forever and aren't going to fold in 5 years. There's so many moving parts in even just the DotA 2 ecosystem. As long as all sides don't have their own strong, fair, equal representation no one does. It's been proven over and over if anyone can get the upper hand in esports (and pretty much anything in life) they're going to take advantage of it and screw everyone under them over.
Esports contracts are a pain in the ass to enforce. The cost to take someone to court is prohibitive. A player doesn't make enough money to take a team org to court which means a contract can really only hurt him. No team wants to be the bad guy and take some player to court and have the community shit on them. As such no one enforces anything because its just not feasible. On top of that going to court with a Turkish company like Secret when you're a Canadian like EE is, forget about that. International court cases cost an assload of money. He could never do it in his wildest dreams.
So unfortunately things are currently at a stalemate.
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts.
You do understand that that is exactly what Secret tried to be but somehow they managed to fuck it up. Kemal joined like 6 months after Secret was formed and i remember it was supposed to be his little project that he wasn't taking any money from them and only giving but it was all a ruse it seems.
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
True. People just somehow assumed that they got better after the first time.
Btw "I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "Where's my money?". Guess Kemal was honest in some ways.
Edit @OuchyDathurts: Nvm, I'm unable to read. You already mentioned the manager.
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Yeah exactly. EE already was in contact with tournament organisers about payment to the secret team so he had info to confront puppey and kemal with, might as well just handle the full payment himself instead.
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
True.
Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette.
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long.
Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now.
It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll.
And again having someone like Kemal is the same as having a hanger on. He's a tumor. He can do nothing but ruin your brand, he can never ever benefit you. But because he's fabulously rich they let him play with them and run business. The problem is he's the sugar daddy so you have to blow him and keep on his good side. That is so unbelievably awful for business, it's actually playing with a loaded gun.
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
True.
Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette.
On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long.
Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now.
It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll.
RTZ the businessman
I'm surprised you consider secret kindergartener amateur tbh. I would be surprised if it was just incompetence. Sure, Matt's inability to open an account at the beginning might be.
But all the stuff like the 10% cuts, breaking promises all the time while lowering the promised sums, the immense delays, Kemal's permanent inaccessibility and Puppey's permanent annoyance whenever that topic appears smell like intentional scamming tbh. I'm not 100% sure Puppey is part of it or just arrogant and quick to anger (and frustrated because Kemal keeps him away from the money as well), but there is a good chance that he is the only player who gets paid regularly for keeping the other guys "trusting".
Hell they can organize meeting a porn star in a foreign country as well as single rooms for everyone, but not money transfers to their employees?
On October 10 2016 09:15 nayumi wrote: I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
Not much to elaborate on. Apparently they brought a pornstar to TI because........no one knows why anyone would think that's a good idea actually. My guess is Kemal the idiot man child decided that in his tiny child mind paying for a porn star to attend was somehow good for brand image.
On October 10 2016 09:15 nayumi wrote: I really don't give a shit about the rest but can someone please elaborate on this bit:
"Oh shit I just realized, Secret bought like drones, hired a porn star, and a few models during TI"
?
Not much to elaborate on. Apparently they brought a pornstar to TI because........no one knows why anyone would think that's a good idea actually. My guess is Kemal the idiot man child decided that in his tiny child mind paying for a porn star to attend was somehow good for brand image.
So those poor Secret players never got to bang a porn star?
God this is madness. Secret and Puppey are such jerks!
edit:
In all seriousness, all of these are not fully unexpected, and are bound to happen in a young industry like Dota. Players are often of very young age, and there's just so much money involved. Most of the times you wouldn't think of getting a lawyer to make sure you were not exposed, simply because there was no guarantee of success in the field. I'm curious to see how the other side would respond to all of this, and how the current Secret will function now that the cat is out of the bag.
On October 10 2016 07:56 Emnjay808 wrote: I wonder if this will be ignored again just like Evany's post a while ago.
To be honest, the statement from EternalEnvy has a lot more oomph, since it goes behind the scenes and gives up much more of a complete picture of what happened (accounting for EternalEnvy's bias of course). The statement from EvanY was much more limited and restrained. As the parties involved never followed up on the matter, everyone just had to assume that the problem was solved. CyborgMatt caught a lot of heat for basically saying "fuck you" to the community and pretending the whole issue didn't exist. Eventually that died down as well, and there was no one to call anyone out.
If Puppey does not refute this, it will leave a lasting mark. I don't see how he can continue with this unresolved. Everything I have seen from this Kemal guy seems very off and dodgy, and now potental Team Secret players, even if they aren't very invested in the issue, will be able to sense the stink of it. It cannot easily be explained away.
There's also the factor that nobody knows Evany and everybody knows EE and Misery. Also while EE is known for being a bit whiny and biased, Misery is not.
The thing that surprises me the most is that they kept playing for a team that was known for not paying upfront for an entire year. Misery came back to them after not receiving money. Did they just miss the Evany-blog entirely in the pre-TI-training?
I guess it's officially team scamcret now?
Should have been since the first roster didn't get paid
True.
Btw spamming "I can't answer right now, I'm on vacation" is the ideal answer to "When am I getting paid?". At least if you are Marie Antoinette.
On October 10 2016 08:55 OuchyDathurts wrote:
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
One guy still has to deal with all the stuff in the background, so involving a manager definitely makes sense. Most pros are mainly thinking about Dota. That's likely the #1 reason these players stayed for so long.
Yeah of course. After the 5 business partners get it incorporated. Get the companies framework figured out. Then you hire a person. An actual professional not a friend, not a hanger on, not a leach. You hire a legitimate corporate professional to take care of things. Someone who has to report to the 5 bosses, they're an employee. When Arteezy asks "Hey, how's that Yeezy sponsorship coming?" they can't reply "I'm working on it don't worry" they've gotta actually give him dates and facts and figures. All this behind closed doors backwards "you just worry about dota man" shadiness is exactly the problem. No no no, I'm your boss, you tell me right now.
It takes 5 pros who actually have a vested interest in being players and being business men. 5 pros who want to take life by the balls and possibly grow an empire. Turns out secret was some real kindergartener amateur shit. None of these things would fly in an actual big boy company or heads would roll.
RTZ the businessman I'm surprised you consider secret kindergartener amateur tbh. I would be surprised if it was just incompetence. I mean sure, Matt's inability to open an account at the beginning might be. But all the stuff like the 10% cuts, breaking promises all the time while lowering the promised sums, the immense delays, Kemal's permanent inaccessibility and Puppey's permanent annoyance whenever that topic appears smell like intentional scamming tbh. I'm not 100% sure Puppey is part of it or just arrogant and quick to anger (and angry because Kemal keeps him away from the money as well), but there is a good chance that he is the only player who gets paid regularly for keeping the other guys "trusting".
I agree to the rest though!
Theres SS's of 1437 and Puppey talking where Puppey said matt is getting fired as a manager and put on something more his speed. Since he's a nice guy and he's a technical dude, just managing isn't his thing. So yeah Matt screwed up, but he was never qualified for the job in the first place. Which is my problem with so many esports teams. Just hiring a buddy to do a job. You wouldn't hire your BFF to be your lawyer just because he's your friend right? People need to take this seriously. You need an actual certified accountant, you need a real actual bonified lawyer, this isn't a kids club. You can't just hire friends and girlfriends, that's how actual businesses go out of business. I started a restaurant and hired the neighbor kid as a chef because he's a sweet kid. Then everybody got food poisoning and long story short I don't a restaurant anymore lol. It's just amateur hour man.
I certainly wouldn't say scam from the get go is out of the question. That's the problem with it not being a 5 way business partnership between players. Its Kemal and Puppey and everyone else can go to hell. That's not how you do this whole thing. It was doomed to fail from the jump. The options are kindergarten amateur disaster business or a scam really.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful. He's not likely scamming people and threatening them with violence though afaik.
Which is why it's such a shame he's taking a break
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
Yeah I don't doubt that it's not that easy. There's a difference between coach and ingame leader though. A coach doesn't need to be as strict as a leader imo.
PPD tried to change his style of leadership during the RTZ time but got negative receptions for it from Bulba, as well as having bad blood with RTZ nowadays. So there's a good chance that RTZ is one of those who don't respond well to dictatorship.
In the end it's always about finding the right balance I think.
Just gonna say that I always knew it was Puppey bringing the team down all along with his sloppy lazy play. More importantly Envy's ballsack is too fucking huge oh my god Jacky is the hero we don't deserve.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
Yeah I don't doubt that it's not that easy. There's a difference between coach and ingame leader though. A coach doesn't need to be as strict as a leader imo.
PPD tried to change his style of leadership during the RTZ time but got negative receptions for it from Bulba, as well as having a bad relation to RTZ nowadays. So there's a good chance that RTZ is one of those who don't respond well to dictatorship at all.
In the end it's always about finding the right balance I think.
Yeah I know PPD said that the team told him they want the old asshole PPD dictator back. I guess its what worked for them.
A sports coach is pretty comparative to a dota captain IMO. Yes they're not playing in the game but they're the mastermind to everything that's happening in the game. A coach draws up all the plays and dictates everything from the sideline. There is no sideline in DotA so all the plays and actions get drawn up by the in game captain. But they're both essentially the generals of the team in their respective sports with very few exceptions. Some of the absolute great QBs like Peyton Manning in Brett Favre did pick the plays on their own because they were so obscenely good, but they're the exception to the rule. On most teams you do what the big man on the sideline tells you.
There's super strict coaches, they're just a dying breed. Belichick, Parcells, Bobby Knight, etc. Some coaches were really awful awful people, like evil abusive but they made a hell of a ball coach! Kids these days don't like being yelled at and having chairs thrown at them by and large though. They want to be treated as members of the team and equals, which there's nothing necessarily wrong with. Whatever gets you the W.
I still can't get over the fact that Secret got 0 paying sponsors while EE got the only paying deal on his own merit while 'focusing totally on dota' . He's getting flamed for not being interested in the buisiness side. And then Puppey fucks up the deal by not streaming. It's hilarious. And sad.
On October 10 2016 07:40 Nerfed wrote: I was a huge ppy fan for like 10 years now. Things have changed now lol ppy can go and fuck himself, i have 0 respect left for him as well as 0 chance of building any. What the hell, guy, in effect, steals money from teammates and uses fighting as a last argument! Is this reality lol ?
I just really want to see players cooperate, make a real trade union and press and strike the shit out of organisations. Also, as it appears, players should sign some contracts and shit which describes what each party should do and all that technical stuff - i do believe players that they are not getting paid, but if they had a legit contract they could use legal instruments to secure their money, not turn to the public support every time.
I really think it's time for professional players to stand together against all that shit and also for us, casual players and viewers, to support them and send our fucks to shady orgs and teams.
All in all i see no point in denying credibility to EE's or Misery's blogs since they correspond to everything we know and EE's blog provides us with a lot of info. I wanna praise EE for him coming out with all of hes blogs during the recent years, he's the hero.
P.S. To me it seems that Kemal guy is def laundrying the moneyz
Contracts and unions only work in theory right now. The only way you get a union to work is if everyone is represented. There needs to be a caster's union, a player's union, a team org union, and a tourney org union. You can never have 1 without all of the rest because everyone else is going to get screwed. Then when you consider that an given esport game only has a very finite lifespan things get super messy. It's not like MLB or the NFL where the sport is cemented in stone and the teams have been around forever and aren't going to fold in 5 years. There's so many moving parts in even just the DotA 2 ecosystem. As long as all sides don't have their own strong, fair, equal representation no one does. It's been proven over and over if anyone can get the upper hand in esports (and pretty much anything in life) they're going to take advantage of it and screw everyone under them over.
Esports contracts are a pain in the ass to enforce. The cost to take someone to court is prohibitive. A player doesn't make enough money to take a team org to court which means a contract can really only hurt him. No team wants to be the bad guy and take some player to court and have the community shit on them. As such no one enforces anything because its just not feasible. On top of that going to court with a Turkish company like Secret when you're a Canadian like EE is, forget about that. International court cases cost an assload of money. He could never do it in his wildest dreams.
So unfortunately things are currently at a stalemate.
I agree with you on the assesment of the current state of the situation - unions are hard to build, everybody tries to abuse each other when given a possibility etc. I just want to stress out that if players don't cooperate the situation will not get better. They have to take initiative and protect their own interests. Also it worth noting that players have the most backing by the public than anybody else involved.
On October 10 2016 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The thing I'm most amazed about is Puppey practicing so little. How can any of the teammates accept that. Isn't that a total dealbreaker?
People not getting payed is like #1 esports rule unfortunately. While I understand SC2 players taking every straw they can and hope for payment since most are dirt poor, these Dota players are all pretty rich?. Why even need an organisation. Just get 5 people together, pay for your own flights and hotels. Hire a manager and an accountant if you don't want to deal with sending emails and stuff, and let the prize money get payed directly to your own 5 bank accounts. There's really no reason to put yourself in a vulnerable position depending on someone who won't even give you financial information about your own fucking money. Seeing as EE got the only lucrative sponsor deal on his own initiative, the team really adds 0 value.
Also most of these players involved are quite experienced, how have they still not grasped that it's important to get a detailed contract and keep track of your money.
The last part I just referenced. But the 2nd paragraph I was going to talk about and forgot.
Secret was supposed to be a player team and it failed so god damn hard it really annoys me. A player run org could do SO MUCH GOOD in this scene. Especially if you have 5 independently rich players that form a team. All the players can pay for their own flights and hotels out of pocket if needed. Basically use their previous salaries and prize winnings as capital to get the new team off the ground. You pay out of pocket and you start winning tournaments until the whole team becomes solvent. I really thought and hoped this was what secret's game plan was.
Now of course there are business decisions to be made. Does the team take a cut, pursuing sponsorships, do we want team sponsorships or just personal sponsorships, etc. Those decisions the 5 players need to sit in a conference room in person and discuss. Hash out all the nuts and bolts of how they're going to run the business as real business partners. The players have to understand too that they're not going to get their way on every decision, they might get outvoted 3/5 but that's life in the business world. It's not personal, it's just business. Know that you win some and you lose some but this needs to be hashed out and signed off on by all 5 members before.
From there you hire a manager, and an accountant. A REAL ACCOUNTANT, a boring as fuck, stuffy, nerdy old accountant who goes over all the finances. Everyone is invoiced, every single transaction, every single pay out, sponsorship, tournament winning, everything fully itemized by a professional bean counter. All 5 team members get a weekly, monthly, quarterly, whateverly summery of the team's finances. It's all above board and totally transparent. You hire someone to sniff out sponsors and help promote your brand. But everyone knows all the details, there's never a "don't worry about it. I'm working on it" moment.
It's honestly not that hard if you could get 5 mature like minded players together. You can run a pretty lean org where everything is out in the open and the players hold control of their own destiny. I really wish that's what secret turned out to be and it pisses me off they threw away this amazing chance. I hope someone gets it right.
Oh yeah, NO OUTSIDE SUGAR DADDY'S INVOLVED!!!!! Players and certified professionals only. The whole Kemal aspect of the team I knew was nothing but cancer from day 1.
i could like sign under all of those words lol player-run org :sarcasm: they should advertise like "Secret - by players for Kemal and Puppey"
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
I never got the impression that PPD was the "explode at you if you don't execute the play" type of captain. From his demeanor and philosophy, he seems more like a Gregg Popovich type.
On October 10 2016 10:25 Nakama wrote: Ok Envy just destroyed Puppey OMFG... i always was a big fan of puppey but somehow he always seemed shady.. now i know why....
Yea, he's not slim though. AHEM.
On topic: Team disbanded/dissapointed due to shady payments is a bit....heavy. I don't know how Puppey and Kemal can recover from this.
Ppy behavior aside, never like the guy anyways and none of this comes as a surprise to me since hints of that could be seen ever since he left NaVi (lots of those incidents all resurfaced on reddit now), I still cant believe that in this age of multi million dollar business that Dota has become, players dont find it alarming to play for an organization with simple oral agreements.
Perhaps they were mesmerized by Puppey/Kemal combo: one being a very successful dota player and the other a rich guy, who knows. What I do know though is that there is no excuse for entering a deal without being legally covered. I sympathize with all ex secret players/staff who have been wronged and financially/emotionally damaged, but these guys arent kids anymore and need to think a bit more maturely when signing, or in this case, not signing with organizations.
Honestly, getting drunk, going out with Kemal and keep arriving late when practicing are the most unexpected habits that one can imagine coming out from the legend Puppey himself. He's supposed to be the owner and the captain of the team, maybe he's influenced by Kemal and they decided to fucking make the team their personal slush fund.
People usually don't care for one's temper, as long as you can prevent it from affecting your surroundings. Not in Puppey's case though.
I am actually speechless now, as an avid fan of TS from DAC, I lost every respect I have toward TS and Puppey. Wonder if there's any news that can shock me anymore.
On October 10 2016 09:21 blobrus wrote: Bet you could give secrets 4 to ppd and they'd be better off than with puppey anyways.
Pretty sure you could give anybody to ppd and they'd be better than they ever were and ever will be again. That's just ppd. Who is btw known for being an "asshole" (his own words) and dictator ingame as well. Maybe you have to be to be this successful.
It doesn't work for everyone. Some players respond better to positive reinforcement more than a dictatorship. The asshole style coaching is dying out in real sports, more and more of the younger generation will not take being yelled at. That old school hard ass tough love style of leadership is falling out of favor because people don't respond to it anymore. It will work for some people since everyone is different, but more often than not doesn't now days. There's more to being a leader than barking orders.
I never got the impression that PPD was the "explode at you if you don't execute the play" type of captain. From his demeanor and philosophy, he seems more like a Gregg Popovich type.
Explode maybe not, though I'm sure he's more than capable of it. But when EG was winning he was squarely in charge of everything. He talked about it on the HotPants podcast I do believe. How he was an asshole and he decided to try and be nicer and the team went into the tank. Then when they reformed everyone said we want the old asshole peter back. He might be a dick, but he's a dick that knows how to win.
Ya know... For all this shit the thing that gets me the most is Puppey dropping the n- word on Envy.
Like... Fine. I get that the majority of people are pretty ignorant about racism. But looking at that ignorance coming from a passive aggressive Ukrainian white boy...
Just really rubs me the wrong way.
Whatever. Never cared that much for Secret anyway.
On October 10 2016 11:37 adzzlie wrote: Honestly, getting drunk, going out with Kemal and keep arriving late when practicing are the most unexpected habits that one can imagine coming out from the legend Puppey himself. He's supposed to be the owner and the captain of the team, maybe he's influenced by Kemal and they decided to fucking make the team their personal slush fund.
People usually don't care for one's temper, as long as you can prevent it from affecting your surroundings. Not in Puppey's case though.
I am actually speechless now, as an avid fan of TS from DAC, I lost every respect I have toward TS and Puppey. Wonder if there's any news that can shock me anymore.
When the new SEAcret came to life, everyone didn't see it coming at all. It looks so obvious now.
Everyone in the west who has had any contact with the team as a player or a coach has warned everyone else - do not trust Puppey. EE, rtz, Aui, Bulba, Universe, Misery, w33, Kuro, noTail, fly, 1437, Zai. That is incredible list of top players in the scene. After TI6 I bet there was hardly any tier1 talent that wanted to play with Secret, and so those that may have not heard all the rumors playing in a different region are reigned in. Welcome SEAcret.
On October 10 2016 11:18 icystorage wrote: fly shouldve argued with puppey. I wonder what wouldve happened then :D
All this is the typical "evade and distract with personal attacks, when cornered.".
It is not impossible that PPY is under the influence of manipulation as well. His reactions are typical of one that wants to believe an illusion, and snap when the illusion can't be defended.
Just like the OG matter, I do not understand the patience from the players. They are ripe for the lawyer way of stalling and treading quicksand, while making empty lofty promises. I am not gonna put blame on players for being naive, and easily manipulated, because at the end of the day, it is the shady businessman that is at fault for lacking morals.
Again, all this is funny(actually not), that Secret was created to prevent this, but I reckon that stopped when it was put into the hands of someone just trying to skim the gold from the players themselves that were the brand.
Anything I said in relation to the OG case seems to be spot on.
On October 10 2016 13:32 EyeKon wrote: When the new SEAcret came to life, everyone didn't see it coming at all. It looks so obvious now.
Everyone in the west who has had any contact with the team as a player or a coach has warned everyone else - do not trust Puppey. EE, rtz, Aui, Bulba, Universe, Misery, w33, Kuro, noTail, fly, 1437, Zai. That is incredible list of top players in the scene. After TI6 I bet there was hardly any tier1 talent that wanted to play with Secret, and so those that may have not heard all the rumors playing in a different region are reigned in. Welcome SEAcret.
On October 10 2016 11:18 icystorage wrote: fly shouldve argued with puppey. I wonder what wouldve happened then :D
I wish!
Yeah thats what me and a lot of others were thinking at the time. He had to go to SEA because he burned every possible bridge in the west. I don't think that could be more confirmed now.
On October 10 2016 11:18 icystorage wrote: fly shouldve argued with puppey. I wonder what wouldve happened then :D
I wouldn't even be surprised a part of why he got kicked was because Puppey couldn't threaten him/anyone else when he's around. "Taking away from his authority."
On October 10 2016 13:50 Dracolich70 wrote: All this is the typical "evade and distract with personal attacks, when cornered.".
It is not impossible that PPY is under the influence of manipulation as well. His reactions are typical of one that wants to believe an illusion, and snap when the illusion can't be defended.
Just like the OG matter, I do not understand the patience from the players. They are ripe for the lawyer way of stalling and treading quicksand, while making empty lofty promises. I am not gonna put blame on players for being naive, and easily manipulated, because at the end of the day, it is the shady businessman that is at fault for lacking morals.
Again, all this is funny(actually not), that Secret was created to prevent this, but I reckon that stopped when it was put into the hands of someone just trying to skim the gold from the players themselves that were the brand.
Anything I said in relation to the OG case seems to be spot on.
I'd like to believe that ... and some of the things puppey says sound a bit like that.
But I just can't really believe puppey has gone for this long without getting fed up with the shit that kemal is feeding him (if he's partially a victim too).
Kemal is Puppey's golden goose, he'd never turn his back on him. From everything in EE's blog Puppey is the prototypical abusive boyfriend, certainly not the victim.
On October 10 2016 13:50 Dracolich70 wrote: All this is the typical "evade and distract with personal attacks, when cornered.".
It is not impossible that PPY is under the influence of manipulation as well. His reactions are typical of one that wants to believe an illusion, and snap when the illusion can't be defended.
Just like the OG matter, I do not understand the patience from the players. They are ripe for the lawyer way of stalling and treading quicksand, while making empty lofty promises. I am not gonna put blame on players for being naive, and easily manipulated, because at the end of the day, it is the shady businessman that is at fault for lacking morals.
Again, all this is funny(actually not), that Secret was created to prevent this, but I reckon that stopped when it was put into the hands of someone just trying to skim the gold from the players themselves that were the brand.
Anything I said in relation to the OG case seems to be spot on.
I'd like to believe that ... and some of the things puppey says sound a bit like that.
But I just can't really believe puppey has gone for this long without getting fed up with the shit that kemal is feeding him (if he's partially a victim too).
If this is PPY dream to create a business, which is likely set for his future retirement, and income for years to come, it can't be ruled out that he is being fed buzz words(as it appears), on how businesses work while missing all the fine print(that they are being royally screwed).
If PPY is lazy, and puts up hours only when a big tournament is coming, he isn't really the guy that is on top of things, which could easily translate into him being a Puppet, easily puppeteered. He has a big ego and it is not very unlikely a businessman such as Kemal knows how to sweet talk him, and with all the money Kemal has, he can easily be swayed that this will be his reality, if he keeps the faith.
But it could be that PPY is all the same. He surely goes out of his way to cast blame on others, while he is not doing his part.
If yesterday someone told me that Puppey was an egotistical jerk who threatened to engage in physical violence with his teammates--then I wouldve laughed and asked what that person was smoking.
Tbh Im still having a hard time processing all of this. I would jokingly say Puppey burned bridges with everyone in the western scene before, but I didnt think it was to this extent.
On October 10 2016 14:04 Emnjay808 wrote: If yesterday someone told me that Puppey was an egotistical jerk who threatened to engage in physical violence with his teammates--then I wouldve laughed and asked what that person was smoking.
Tbh Im still having a hard time processing all of this. I would jokingly say Puppey burned bridges with everyone in the western scene before, but I didnt think it was to this extent.
Really? He's always come off as a giant douche carried only by his past and his aura to me. I guess no one thinks someone is going to go to the "fucking fight me pussy!" defense. When Fuckingmad did it it was hilarious, people couldn't believe what a child he was for going there. So by the same token I can see the disbelief. But he's always come off as a wholly unlikable individual to me.
On October 10 2016 14:04 Emnjay808 wrote: If yesterday someone told me that Puppey was an egotistical jerk who threatened to engage in physical violence with his teammates--then I wouldve laughed and asked what that person was smoking.
Tbh Im still having a hard time processing all of this. I would jokingly say Puppey burned bridges with everyone in the western scene before, but I didnt think it was to this extent.
Really? He's always come off as a giant douche carried only by his past and his aura to me. I guess no one thinks someone is going to go to the "fucking fight me pussy!" defense. When Fuckingmad did it it was hilarious, people couldn't believe what a child he was for going there. So by the same token I can see the disbelief. But he's always come off as a wholly unlikable individual to me.
That is not the public image I got from PPY, even if my x-gf held him in much higher regards than I. I still remember him hugging MTW players when Na'vi lost at Dreamhack. He has always had this public image of a fair person.
On October 10 2016 11:12 icystorage wrote: sweet sweet drama. curious though, can secret/ppy/kemal sue EE for anything?
sue for what lol. Late payment or some chat screenshots? Or because they took the 10% share without communicating it properly with the players? I think if anything, it's the ex-players who have the rights to sue secret instead for any unpaid prize.
On October 10 2016 13:55 OuchyDathurts wrote: Kemal is Puppey's golden goose, he'd never turn his back on him. From everything in EE's blog Puppey is the prototypical abusive boyfriend, certainly not the victim.
Yeah the prototypical abusive boyfriend was the first thing I thought when I read this. Amazing how they can keep people under their control despite disgusting behavior.
Ever wonder how every ex-secret members are so good after they leave? Puppey trained them to play 4v5 dota in the most toxic environment ever. Even EE don't get fazed by the shit he gets in pubs now.
I wonder what would Azarkon say about 1 of the 2 greatest western captains ever.
Based on how ex-teammates actually like him as a captain at some point, I have reasons to believe he was always a charismatic yet egoistic person, but he probably wasn't that bad until recent times.
Yea his career is probably over. No sane people will team up with a guy with mental issues and also one that lost his dota passion.
This might come as a shocker to some people, but you generally can't tell the characteristics of a person just by watching them play video games. Back in the day people were also shocked to find out that Luxury was a wife-beater. Hopefully both Secret and Puppey are finished after this sickening scandal.
What I find rather unbelievable, however, is why we're only hearing about this now. The Fly/evany drama happened over a year ago and back then the silence was deafening, both from Secret and from other pro players (particularly the then-current Secret lineup). Imagine playing for an organization that 1) hasn't paid you your tournament winnings, 2) has former players claiming they haven't been paid, and 3) is completely ignoring the former players. That should be sending off mountains of alarm bells, and if you didn't give support to the ex-players then, you can hardly be surprised that the organization is screwing you over today.
I do feel especially bad for envy though. That guy has been through hell and back, he's had to deal with haters, alliance kicking him, marc fernandez, and now kemal and puppey. this guy just can't catch a break
On October 10 2016 15:16 HungrySC2 wrote: This isn't even about Dota. Plastered on alcohol and high on power. Trying to cover his ass. Just your typical abusive drunk.
That is what I thought after reading EE's blog. Hell, Kemal and Puppey in different occassions even blamed EE for losing the TI and disgracing Secret's name. Even though the entire problem is just $$$, not doto.
I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote: I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
Yea this part is pretty surprising. You can be not a very pleasant person, even try to get some money for yourself at the expense of your teammates or whatever, and you can be lazy when at home, but I would still expect you to try your best to win tournaments when you fly to the location and there's millions on the line. But according to this story he was busy getting drunk and not showing up at the agreed times even during million dollar tournaments.
Still not sure if I'm the biggest fan of putting it out there for everyone to see though. The money thing is one thing, there I understand that going public with it may feel like the best way to go. But even if all true the Puppey stuff idk, not sure if making it public serves a great purpose.
On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote: I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
Yea this part is pretty surprising. You can be not a very pleasant person, even try to get some money for yourself at the expense of your teammates or whatever, and you can be lazy when at home, but I would still expect you to try your best to win tournaments when you fly to the location and there's millions on the line. But according to this story he was busy getting drunk and not showing up at the agreed times even during million dollar tournaments.
Still not sure if I'm the biggest fan of putting it out there for everyone to see though. The money thing is one thing, there I understand that going public with it may feel like the best way to go. But even if all true the Puppey stuff idk, not sure if making it public serves a great purpose.
Are you serious ? so you just let it continue ? doesn't Forev and Co should know what they are getting them selves into ?????? this is why we have media (in ideal world) to expose rotten orgs like this. Envy should be applaud for stepping up and getting in the way of those crooked bullies , i feel sorry for the new secret team.
On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote: I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
Yea this part is pretty surprising. You can be not a very pleasant person, even try to get some money for yourself at the expense of your teammates or whatever, and you can be lazy when at home, but I would still expect you to try your best to win tournaments when you fly to the location and there's millions on the line. But according to this story he was busy getting drunk and not showing up at the agreed times even during million dollar tournaments.
Still not sure if I'm the biggest fan of putting it out there for everyone to see though. The money thing is one thing, there I understand that going public with it may feel like the best way to go. But even if all true the Puppey stuff idk, not sure if making it public serves a great purpose.
Are you serious ? so you just let it continue ? doesn't Forev and Co should know what they are getting them selves into ?????? this is why we have media (in ideal world) to expose rotten orgs like this. Envy should be applaud for stepping up and getting in the way of those crooked bullies , i feel sorry for the new secret team.
This.
I'm not sure how true this is yet, and Puppey has yet to give his statements. But I doubt EE will lie outright about stuff like this, maybe some slight stretching of things. Still, you can't allow this to continue forever. Think about how those new secret team mates who might get fucked over. At least now they get some warning. I'm glad both he and misery released their statements. Now to see what else pops up next. Statements from Secret? Or from other past members?
On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote: I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
Yea this part is pretty surprising. You can be not a very pleasant person, even try to get some money for yourself at the expense of your teammates or whatever, and you can be lazy when at home, but I would still expect you to try your best to win tournaments when you fly to the location and there's millions on the line. But according to this story he was busy getting drunk and not showing up at the agreed times even during million dollar tournaments.
Still not sure if I'm the biggest fan of putting it out there for everyone to see though. The money thing is one thing, there I understand that going public with it may feel like the best way to go. But even if all true the Puppey stuff idk, not sure if making it public serves a great purpose.
Are you serious ? so you just let it continue ? doesn't Forev and Co should know what they are getting them selves into ?????? this is why we have media (in ideal world) to expose rotten orgs like this. Envy should be applaud for stepping up and getting in the way of those crooked bullies , i feel sorry for the new secret team.
I just said I understand talking about Secret and how the money tends to disappear somewhere. All the stuff about Puppey's behavior inside the team is a bit of a separate thing imo. Though of course it helps in painting the picture given that Puppey is also the one who primarily leads the org with Kemal. But players can learn about how different players are through private conversations too. Noone is advocating to let it continue.
I remember all the speeches when secret was formed, "we are making our own team because organizations are taking so large cuts from the prizemoney" etc all that, looks like puppey became the "organization" himself :D
I Hope players start so sort these deals before they join any team, not while they are in the team....
On October 10 2016 15:47 babysimba wrote: Based on how ex-teammates actually like him as a captain at some point, I have reasons to believe he was always a charismatic yet egoistic person, but he probably wasn't that bad until recent times.
Narcissists tend to be initially very well-perceived and are generally charismatic.
On October 10 2016 18:08 Beyond Magic wrote: I remember all the speeches when secret was formed, "we are making our own team because organizations are taking so large cuts from the prizemoney" etc all that, looks like puppey became the "organization" himself :D
I Hope players start so sort these deals before they join any team, not while they are in the team....
Such a shame. I think Puppey would have built the perfect team because he's been around for long and knows about the shady teams & orgs and all the awful business behind the scenes, and now its revealed that he is the problem....I cant believe how Team Secret has betrayed all those values it set out to pursue.
On October 10 2016 15:47 babysimba wrote: Ever wonder how every ex-secret members are so good after they leave? Puppey trained them to play 4v5 dota in the most toxic environment ever. Even EE don't get fazed by the shit he gets in pubs now.
I wonder what would Azarkon say about 1 of the 2 greatest western captains ever.
Based on how ex-teammates actually like him as a captain at some point, I have reasons to believe he was always a charismatic yet egoistic person, but he probably wasn't that bad until recent times.
Yea his career is probably over. No sane people will team up with a guy with mental issues and also one that lost his dota passion.
Him being a lazy asshole was probably something that spiraled over time. rtz had only good things to say about Puppey post-TI5, and s4 at least thought he was a great captain. rtz and 1437 even returned to the team (granted, 1437 was a coach in both cases), which goes against the idea that he was always this bad? Like, EE says in the blog that he started treating the coaches like shit during the TI6 bootcamp. Keyword there is started, meaning it's a new thing.
This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
On October 10 2016 18:08 Beyond Magic wrote: I remember all the speeches when secret was formed, "we are making our own team because organizations are taking so large cuts from the prizemoney" etc all that, looks like puppey became the "organization" himself :D
I Hope players start so sort these deals before they join any team, not while they are in the team....
Such a shame. I think Puppey would have built the perfect team because he's been around for long and knows about the shady teams & orgs and all the awful business behind the scenes, and now its revealed that he is the problem....I cant believe how Team Secret has betrayed all those values it set out to pursue.
Puppey might know a thing or 2 about shady teams etc but from EE's blog we can see that he isn't putting any of that knowledge into use,doesn't know how to or doesn't care. Then again, puppey is a player, not a team owner. He's just enjoying the position he's earned through his success and reputation and letting his teammates fend for themselves. For a player/captain i don't see nothing wrong with that, not sure what he is exactly in team secret, owner or a player.
Not everyone can handle fame, even less can handle money. Been a big fan of Puppey for a very long time. Things started to smell for me after secret 2.0 crashed in TI, with very cocky drafts. Then all this lets get rtz and then get rid of him then get him again, i lost the count was the time when i lost all my respect for puppey. I am trying to find an excuse for him about everything money related, hell getting 10% cut from player winnings then pay all their bills in the hotel so they can focus on dota is not a bad idea at all. But the fact that he didn't practice, was late for scrims and even tournaments, says it all. Its like "Im so big, rich, good in dota and famous that i can do whatever i want and still win" proves that he is way out of his league. Seems like Secret is over too.. well they probably deserved it. I hope that this never happens again...
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
Not sure what there could even be that Secret or Puppey could say at this point to make it all seem fine. The evidence of terrible mishandling of money is pretty overwhelming at this point and it isn't just something EE said. Of course you can dispute what was said about Puppey and his actions (which is partly why I feel even bringing that side up is a bit questionable, it doesn't really benefit anyone if people start publicly flaming each other) but I feel the players not getting their money is the far more serious issue anyway.
On October 10 2016 15:57 writer22816 wrote: This might come as a shocker to some people, but you generally can't tell the characteristics of a person just by watching them play video games. Back in the day people were also shocked to find out that Luxury was a wife-beater. Hopefully both Secret and Puppey are finished after this sickening scandal.
What I find rather unbelievable, however, is why we're only hearing about this now. The Fly/evany drama happened over a year ago and back then the silence was deafening, both from Secret and from other pro players (particularly the then-current Secret lineup). Imagine playing for an organization that 1) hasn't paid you your tournament winnings, 2) has former players claiming they haven't been paid, and 3) is completely ignoring the former players. That should be sending off mountains of alarm bells, and if you didn't give support to the ex-players then, you can hardly be surprised that the organization is screwing you over today.
I do feel especially bad for envy though. That guy has been through hell and back, he's had to deal with haters, alliance kicking him, marc fernandez, and now kemal and puppey. this guy just can't catch a break
This has boggled my mind also, and it does seem very suspect.
EE said he just shrugged it off, because he was focused on the upcoming Shanghai major, but considering they were in the same position it is quite "coincidental" they didn't ride on this, and N0tail and Fly had to fight alone. Even Kuroky was at large silent.
RTZ was allegedly also owed money, but still rejoined. There must be some stones that are not turned from the other side. It almost feels like they are using this to propel their own brands(DC and EEs new team).
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
Not sure what there could even be that Secret or Puppey could say at this point to make it all seem fine. The evidence of terrible mishandling of money is pretty overwhelming at this point and it isn't just something EE said. Of course you can dispute what was said about Puppey and his actions (which is partly why I feel even bringing that side up is a bit questionable, it doesn't really benefit anyone if people start publicly flaming each other) but I feel the players not getting their money is the far more serious issue anyway.
It seems to me the best they can do at this point is to clarify this wasn't a malicious plan from the beginning. However the way they dealt with their own incompetence is absolutely unethical and illegal regardless. The adjustment of prize money cut without communication is just blatant theft and Puppey pretty much admitted to that in the screenshots by saying it comes out of salary or something else regardless. His argument only holds up during a negotiation conversation, but not after having agreed on terms, then it becomes something else entirely.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
I totally agree with you, in general. But seeing how the "first" drama about secret not paying it's players was "handled" with just not saying anything at all until everyone forgot, I tend to just take EEs (and miserys) word for the truth.
I mean, if it was just EE's blog then sure but with EE/Misery and the previous stuff it's obvious that Secret is a shitty organization.
Don't care much about the Puppey rage/bully stuff. I was never a fan and it doesn't effect me. The fact that he's lazy was pretty well known though right? I've seen it mentioned before that he almost never pubs so no real surprise.
For the subjective parts about puppey: I don't think his attitude and laziness that EE describes would be a symptom of a new environment where he has to handle money. This is because if we go back to the many years of Na'Vi drama XBOCT was extremely outspoken about puppey with very similar issues, and put the blame of never practicing on Puppey. (this coming from when kuro dropped info about navi's drama on some german forum)
If I spoke russian I would reference things Artstyle lobbed against puppey as well, but I can't remember the details of that stuff.
Then there's the time when Kuro was made the bad guy for finally trying to have a coup and kick puppey behind his back. It feels like a recurring issue with puppey.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
Not sure what there could even be that Secret or Puppey could say at this point to make it all seem fine. The evidence of terrible mishandling of money is pretty overwhelming at this point and it isn't just something EE said. Of course you can dispute what was said about Puppey and his actions (which is partly why I feel even bringing that side up is a bit questionable, it doesn't really benefit anyone if people start publicly flaming each other) but I feel the players not getting their money is the far more serious issue anyway.
I agree, but i can't even remember how many times in my life where i have read something dramatically similar to this and thought "holy shit this guy is so bad" only later to have to correct my opinion on many things once the other party revealed it's side of the story. I believe this is a very important part of judging anyone or any situation in life, even if things look bad you gotta listen to the other side as well.
I bet there are a lot of things that will be cleared up once Puppey and/or Secret decides to share information, still though, there are some things that he probably cannot justify having done.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
I totally agree with you, in general. But seeing how the "first" drama about secret not paying it's players was "handled" with just not saying anything at all until everyone forgot, I tend to just take EEs (and miserys) word for the truth.
Yeah, sadly i feel like this has been e-sport standard for many years in counter strike and starcraft and probably many other games. It's sad how greedy a lot of people are.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
puppey's response is probably that its a necessary evil to take a cut from the players (and etc) and its better off if they (and everyone else) don't know about it.
having an unusually self-confident/narcissistic/non-humble personality will lend to things like this. you only really see the result of things like that when such a personality is coupled with strong natural charisma and of course also with success.
i know someone who is freakin self-confident as shit, highly charismatic, and he doesn't really care about morality/transparency/equality/etc because he can just get by with lies and being liked by people and just get what he wants doing it that way and loves the power of it.
then you got the people who have traits surrounding control and being questioned by others. i know someone who will literally push you out the way when he walks past just to assert physical dominance to people he wants to know that they are weaker than him. and when you try to joke with him, if he regards you as lesser than him than he won't take it as a joke but just talk you down instead. these neurotic , primal traits of being the dominant person , at the expense of other things such as a will towards mutual respect or a will to enable your fellow people rather than control them
probably this shit is learned behaviour from parents who come from a narrow-minded, macho background.
on the other side of the spectrum you got envy who grew up with anime and anime themes are usually the opposite of that macho shit (anime themes are like, "we must do our best to help one another!!<3<3").
(you can throw in alcohol to make things worse because it hinders any sort of improvements/growth over time.)
i'm not saying these traits are what make or break a person, i'm just saying that they do exist and its important to be aware of how peoples basic human behaviour can differ so greatly
i just wished puppey would have done that with fly on a team.suggesting to fight each other. imagining fly putting puppey on his back with 2 quick moves makes me smiley :D
lmao is this serious? How can you be a respected leader when you threaten others with violence if they slightly disagree with you? This is a new all time low.
On October 10 2016 22:22 Barkley wrote: lmao is this serious? How can you be a respected leader when you threaten others with violence if they slightly disagree with you? This is a new all time low.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
puppey's response is probably that its a necessary evil to take a cut from the players (and etc) and its better off if they (and everyone else) don't know about it.
I doubt anyone in their right mind would actually say that. "I'm taking your money and its better off for you if you don't know about it" would be lol-worthy.
I expect something more along the lines of "why are you surprised? Even if it was never stated out loud, it should have been obvious Secret would get a cut".
I'd be really surprised if Puppey bothers to answer said blog entry. Especially if the accusations are mostly true.
Probably it it better for him to lay low, damage control.
And tourneys should start to pay to players instead of organizations. It makes more sense for teams to chase after the tourney price cut instead of players chase their hard earned money.
PPY gain nothing from a public statement. People have made up their minds, and there are possibly a lot of grey areas that would take too much time to portray.
Secret and Kemal will probably get sponsors, if he is half-decent business man and not as things seems to suggest; incompetent.
hey, lesson learned. be tactful with your conversations, even until the last. you look a greater man than you actually are. you look to care about people even when that's the last thing on your mind. but you get to say things and make waves when you want (and it benefits you). you get to apologize when you want. you get to have fans who think of you and intimate relationships with people you want, too.
it takes a genius to make a persona they like and to become it for a greater part of life, and puppey, a genius, he is not. merely a human, and one of the smaller reasons or examples as to why i will never truly understand devout fandom.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
puppey's response is probably that its a necessary evil to take a cut from the players (and etc) and its better off if they (and everyone else) don't know about it.
I doubt anyone in their right mind would actually say that. "I'm taking your money and its better off for you if you don't know about it" would be lol-worthy.
I expect something more along the lines of "why are you surprised? Even if it was never stated out loud, it should have been obvious Secret would get a cut".
This so much screams "Russian/Easterneuropean corruption/Business practises".
These people playing for such sums is just beyond stupid... Even if the contracts would be hard to enforce, at least make one, even a bad one is better than none at all.
Not tracking a 1M+250k contract - while not having any sponsors and living from tourney winnings. This turkish guy is a business man, really?
In EEs post it feels like he is on vacation 24/7 and not running a business. I am not shocked about ppy, I knew he is that kind of guy, just watch the interviews. I also knew secret is not paying people - but not being able to fullfil a contract to EARN money makes no sense.
It's kinda funny that team secrets only reliable income came from EE.... a guy with no real business experience, 23 or 24y old at the time? By poking around chinese streaming platforms CEO's. Sure some other secret members/staff took part in negotiations after the initial contact but EE got it rolling.
EE = young dota player who initiates 1,25 million dollar streaming deal for his team
Kemal and rest of the group can't even get GPU cards..... while he's supposed to be a business man....
Finally everyone sees the true Puppey who he has allways been, hope Secret and he is soon done. Hope is current ans past teammates will get over it and dont end without money.
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
Not sure what there could even be that Secret or Puppey could say at this point to make it all seem fine. The evidence of terrible mishandling of money is pretty overwhelming at this point and it isn't just something EE said. Of course you can dispute what was said about Puppey and his actions (which is partly why I feel even bringing that side up is a bit questionable, it doesn't really benefit anyone if people start publicly flaming each other) but I feel the players not getting their money is the far more serious issue anyway.
I agree, but i can't even remember how many times in my life where i have read something dramatically similar to this and thought "holy shit this guy is so bad" only later to have to correct my opinion on many things once the other party revealed it's side of the story. I believe this is a very important part of judging anyone or any situation in life, even if things look bad you gotta listen to the other side as well.
I bet there are a lot of things that will be cleared up once Puppey and/or Secret decides to share information, still though, there are some things that he probably cannot justify having done.
Yeah, ok sure, but a few things. EE is honest to a fault, he doesn't sugar coat anything he doesn't hide anything. He's the type that might not be seen as tactful but he cuts through all the BS and he's not malicious or a dick doing it. Some people are that way just to be an asshole but that's him. His mom even talks about it in the TI (or was it a major?) video piece on him. Second of all we have Misery corroborating all the money stuff at least. Thirdly we have Screenshots of everything. So EE's side of things stands on its own. Puppey and Secret are going to have to put out some crazy statement to fix all this and they need to do it in the next 48 hours MAX. The case against them is solid and time is of the essence.
On October 10 2016 15:47 babysimba wrote: Ever wonder how every ex-secret members are so good after they leave? Puppey trained them to play 4v5 dota in the most toxic environment ever. Even EE don't get fazed by the shit he gets in pubs now.
I wonder what would Azarkon say about 1 of the 2 greatest western captains ever.
Based on how ex-teammates actually like him as a captain at some point, I have reasons to believe he was always a charismatic yet egoistic person, but he probably wasn't that bad until recent times.
Yea his career is probably over. No sane people will team up with a guy with mental issues and also one that lost his dota passion.
Him being a lazy asshole was probably something that spiraled over time. rtz had only good things to say about Puppey post-TI5, and s4 at least thought he was a great captain. rtz and 1437 even returned to the team (granted, 1437 was a coach in both cases), which goes against the idea that he was always this bad? Like, EE says in the blog that he started treating the coaches like shit during the TI6 bootcamp. Keyword there is started, meaning it's a new thing.
The shady shit is just crazy though.
S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
Its likely Puppey got worse over time, older, more jaded, more drunk with power. He started off no angel surely as these things don't just suddenly manifest themselves in an instant. This is him, this is his personality, how his mind has always been wired. But I'm sure things got more pronounced over time.
I've always had a knack for seeing through people's shit. I can spot a wolf or a bullshit artist a mile away. Puppey has always rubbed me the wrong way. Comes off as a nice guy to most people I guess but it's an act. You watch his old interviews, appearances on Live On 3 and things like that and he's wearing a mask, he's doing an act for the camera. His words and actions were always hiding his true self. It's hard to explain I guess and if you see something no one else is seeing its difficult to point out all the tiny things he's doing that scream to me "This dude is hiding something!!!!!". He's too cool for school, but in really weird ways that don't make any sense. He's full of himself but again in odd ways. He's always sent my bullshit detector way off.
Its likely Puppey got worse over time, older, more jaded, more drunk with power. He started off no angel surely as these things don't just suddenly manifest themselves in an instant. This is him, this is his personality, how his mind has always been wired. But I'm sure things got more pronounced over time.
I think those kinds of things surfaces up when you begin to lose or being unsuccessful over time. People tolerate you or stay silent if you lead them to victories(TI champ, another TI finals etc..). He had problems with every players he played with independent of who is wrong.
Some people take lessons when they fall from grace, be more mature; some people become more aggressive and surface up those kind of bullshit imo.
Its likely Puppey got worse over time, older, more jaded, more drunk with power. He started off no angel surely as these things don't just suddenly manifest themselves in an instant. This is him, this is his personality, how his mind has always been wired. But I'm sure things got more pronounced over time.
I think those kinds of things surfaces up when you begin to lose or being unsuccessful over time. People tolerate you or stay silent if you lead them to victories(TI champ, another TI finals etc..). He had problems with every players he played with independent of who is wrong.
Some people take lessons when they fall from grace, be more mature; some people become more aggressive and surface up those kind of bullshit imo.
Very true losing a bunch of tourney along with players can help drive the monster out. Also if he has enough self awareness to know that most of the team's problems are directly caused by him that can cause him to further lash out. You know the type of person where its never their fault and if someone says it is or they come to the realization it is on their own they get super defensive. Terrible business dealings, being drunk, being late, not practicing, etc. That's all on him so I can see that fact pissing him off for sure.
On October 11 2016 00:47 Barkley wrote: Sad thing is, we still dont know if this is only in Secret's Dota division. Who knows if their other players from other games are getting paid.
A good point. I'd guess not what they're supposed to get paid. But my guess is they're robbing Peter to pay Paul. The other divisions actually lose boatloads of money so they're using the DotA team who does make money to prop up the other divisions.
I doubt the management of the other divisions is in order but the money going through them also surely isn't anywhere close to the dota team.
Concerning Puppey I think his position in Secret now surely affects how other players talk about him. Back when he was "just a player" in NaVi or when Secret started out, even if people had issues with him most are reluctant to talk about them in public (a flame war doesn't really do any good) and it's impossible to deny his accomplishments as a player. You don't have to be a great person to be a player people want to be in a team with if you are good at the game. And if you are just a player your responsibilities are also limited to that. But now as Secret has gone on for quite a while it became his organization with Kemal, and he is in big part responsible for how the organization handles itself. He's not just a player but the other players rely on him to care and make sure things are handled as they should. But instead he seems to not care at all, make decisions behind their backs, and the money is magically disappearing somewhere.
I'm sure EE himself or many other players are not exactly saints as far as everything that happens inside a team goes, but there's no reason to bring it up or for people to really care if it's just some petty disputes. But when it's about people getting the money they have earned it's a far more serious issue.
W33 is that guy in your pubs where his support (ppy) feeds couriers and places wards in fountain and spams the chat with toxic stuff and he is seriously considering throwing the game (shangai) but in the end he takes a deep breath and wins the game anyway.
Only to read "gg ez commend me you fucks and report my mid plz" in all chat as the throne explodes.
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
No, because this thread is not "nothing but allegations"
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
with EE's and Misery's blogs there are now more than 1 witness to Secret's dark side which makes it pretty valid legal evidence
1 person might be BS or talking out of his/her ass, but now we have EE, Misery, and W33 all pointing to the same conclusion that Puppey and Secret are top-tier shitheads and Kemel is running a ponzi scheme
plus EE's blog has pictorial and video evidence, which adds more weight
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
While I sympathize with your call for inconsistency, more fuel against the same employer does have accumulative effects, does it not?
In the mean time we can ponder why they were silent, when Evany spoke.
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
Did they actually do that? TL moderators can always dig a new low I guess.
It makes me sick to think that Evany and co. did not get their fair pay of compensation while Puppey and Kemal took the liberty to hire a pornstar and "CSGO girls".
Also to trash talk Evany--saying she doesn't deserve anything. ROFL, they can go fuck themselves. I may be biased towards OG--but her management skills definitely contributed to them having a great year.
How the fuck do these people sleep at night? Fuck me man..
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
While I sympathize with your call for inconsistency, more fuel against the same employer does have accumulative effects, does it not?
In the mean time we can ponder why they were silent, when Evany spoke.
At the time EE, Misery and w33 hadn't been in the team for more than 5 months or so. The delays didn't yet concern them that much and Kemal/Puppey could come up with different excuses for it originally. But then nothing seemingly changed, it became a problem for the new players too, and also this 10% cut thing seems to be pretty recent information for the players. This isn't even only about money being delayed but it disappearing without the players knowing it.
Also pretty sure at the time the players held Puppey in a pretty different light compared to now. Back then if Puppey told them something about Secret and assured them I would assume they take him at his word, but then they had more experiences with him as a teammate, found out that he was apparently making decisions behind their back concerning team finances, and even pretty much screwed up the massive PandaTV deal.
I was always a little confused at Puppey praise from players but figured there must be good reason for it. His play got pretty terrible from the start of the year or so yet he was still "the best" so I guessed he must just be an amazing captain. Now he doesn't even seem to have that.
Just hope the four Secret players are OK. PPD taking them to EG.2 would be glorious, though of course it won't happen.
On October 11 2016 02:22 zolasell wrote: A lot of people have called EE toxic and i do beleave that he is.His toxicness however comes from his honesty and i dont think he would lie about that
On October 11 2016 02:22 zolasell wrote: A lot of people have called EE toxic and i do beleave that he is.His toxicness however comes from his honesty and i dont think he would lie about that
only his naivety trumps his honesty
I never said that EE is an angel and i dont even like the guy.All im saying is that whatever his flaws are he is not someone that would lie like this.
I guess being called the best captain for years can have some bad side effects. I'm like puppey, trying to be always right and blaming others, and I can tell you, we suck.
Secret will never get their shit straight, hope the organisation implodes soon, and no-one has to suffer the same shit.
Whole organization feels like a ponzi scheme to me now. Never liked Kemal but I had thought higher of Puppey, live and learn. Feel bad for the guys who just joined and hope they can find some sort of resolution. Pretty ballsy of EE to come out with this while he is trying to build his own team/brand. Really could hurt his sponsorship chances, but I'm glad he did. This level of detail is what was needed to substantiate the earlier claims. #TeamNotPussy
On October 10 2016 18:57 Lt Kilgore wrote: This looks very bad indeed, but always remember to not judge until you have let both parties have their say in the matter. With that said, Puppey should feel the pressure on giving a statement as soon as possible, time is not his friend right now.
Not sure what there could even be that Secret or Puppey could say at this point to make it all seem fine. The evidence of terrible mishandling of money is pretty overwhelming at this point and it isn't just something EE said. Of course you can dispute what was said about Puppey and his actions (which is partly why I feel even bringing that side up is a bit questionable, it doesn't really benefit anyone if people start publicly flaming each other) but I feel the players not getting their money is the far more serious issue anyway.
I agree, but i can't even remember how many times in my life where i have read something dramatically similar to this and thought "holy shit this guy is so bad" only later to have to correct my opinion on many things once the other party revealed it's side of the story. I believe this is a very important part of judging anyone or any situation in life, even if things look bad you gotta listen to the other side as well.
I bet there are a lot of things that will be cleared up once Puppey and/or Secret decides to share information, still though, there are some things that he probably cannot justify having done.
While it's true that we couldn't fairly form a complete opinion of the matter just based of the statement of EternalEnvy coupled with previous events, there a definitely a few facts that cannot be easily swept aside. Regardless of other facts, the way Secret has treated people asking for their money, which has been documented and stated by many parties (and now brought into a different life by EternalEnvy), cannot be reasonably justified.
While Kemal has always looked dodgy as fuck, I quite like Puppey. I remember how I loved his interview with Sheever. It felt like it wasn't just him acting like a jackass, but rather it was his awkward, but very direct approach to life: it is what he makes if it, and there's no need getting up in arms about it. This was greatly contrasted by his interview at TI6 (I believe he was sitting outside with a few guys interviewing him), where he just didn't seem to level with the people he was interviewing. Many things seem to indicate that perhaps he has indeed let the fame get to him and this becomes his excuse for using other people to get what he wants. Particularly if he felt threatened (such as the latest revelations abou the KuroKy incident would indicate), he would be likely to think more about himself and how to maintain his position. In many ways, he's a great leader, and a lot of what he does works, but if it all ends up being about himself in the end (be it illusions of grandeur, greed for money or just a way to get laid), it cannot last.
Possible points that Puppey could hypothetically use to argue his case (assuming he would have facts to back up such claims):
1) Puppey made no secret of that fact that his end goal was some way off into the future, where he would want to bring big money into the Team Secret. That is, it was not about whatever "petty cash" could be earned now, but about what developing the organisation for the future. The other players on the teams were in support of Puppey's vision. In light of this, in makes complete sense for money that Team Secret earn to be invested into making the organisation bigger. Money has been invested in staff, establishing new teams, forming long lasting sponsor relationships. EternalEnvy claims that people aren't getting paid, but he has missed many details in this regard, and here are the expenses. Therefore the, 10% cuts were necessary, and the Panda money was a Team Secret sponsorship, which is why the money is used within the organisation, among other things for player salaries (which were paid out, as EternalEnvy states himself, even if he was confused about the distribution). As the expenses show, the money are not going to Puppey himself.
The times Kemal has offered out of his own pocket, he has in fact paid himself, and he has been gracious to lend his house in Turkey to Team Secret. As evidenced by the expenses laid out, no money is unaccounted for. Bringing in the porn star was necessary for team morale (and a big expense indeed), and Kemal has never claimed to pay for this. Many players had the time of their life and the Team Secret brand was strenghtened through this alternative way of promoting the team.
2) Due to EternalEnvy being autistic, he is particularly sensitive to personal interaction and will often interpret things very differently from others. It has been very hard to handle him, and Puppey has often had to have close personal talks with him to rectify the situation. For instance, EE mentions W33 being bullied, but he understands nothing. While it was tough for W33 that Puppey was always on his case, it was necessary to make him work on the team. W33 was never very disciplined, and Puppey needed to act as a father figure and keep him in his place. It's not about Puppey being aggressive, but about being an effective team leader. W33 also understood this and has thanked Puppey for his leadership on several occasions. Likewise, Puppey challenging people to fight was not about physical threat. It was about cutting through the bullshit and showing strength and leadership. Many people have praised Puppey for his leadership, and something you have to shock people to get through to them. You can't just sit there and mince words all day - it will never get you anywhere.
Morever, Puppey can be emotional, and since EternalEnvy does not understand such a reaction, he makes a bi deal about it. Puppey is not a liar, but said that he didn't through his keyboard into the monitor because it was unimportant and he didn't want to re-enter a touchy subject. Generally, Puppey is very straight with the players and tell them like it is. Yes, he is very critical, but only because he wants to get the best from those under his leadership.
3) It remains true that Secret have been working for long-term sponsorships, not wanting to be saddled with insignificant sponsor deals. Secret have worked to find a sponsor who would not try to control the team, but a big company that could become a long-time partner. The few sponsorships currently in place have not yielded any financial gains yet, but are there as something to build on. Secret were close to finally securing some of the big sponsor deals they have been working on, but they fell through because the team collapsed. Due to confidentiality, Secret cannot reveal any details about the sponsorships, but suffice to say that EternalEnvy was never involved in negotiating sponsorships and knows very little about what was going on. Someone at Panda allegedly told him that the deal was dead, but we realized that negotiations were still possible and has a very good angle to work out the kinks of a future partnership. You don't just give up because of a few setbacks.
4) EPICENTER are mistaken about having paid out the money. The guy EternalEnvy talked to was told that the money was paid out, but the guy actually tasked with doing it was having trouble due to Kemal's account being blacklisted. This is not due to any ill will of Team Secret, but difficulties imposed by a heavy bureaucracy in the financial sector. This has happened before, as evidency by the previous statement of Evany. Rest assured, the money will be paid out once Secret get them. Team Secret does not keep money that belongs to its players.
5) EternalEnvy complained a lot about not getting any graphics card from Nvidia. However, he does not realize that the deal about the graphics card was an important part of the future sponsorship. The offer of the graphics cards was just a side deal and never had high priority. That is why Nvidia managed to run out of stock before any of their hardware was sent to the players. This is not so hard to understand, but EternalEnvy took everything very personally because he was mad at Puppey.
6) A long carreer within esports has taken its toll on Puppey, and he has had to tone down his investments in the team as a player for short periods within the last year. Helping grow the Team Secret organisation has been a great passion of him, and since he has been working on this intensely for the last year, it has been hard for him to manage both. Since he now has an infrastructure in place, he is back to being fully committed to the team. He has had his team off and is again fully energized and motivated for his esports career. It is understandable that EnternalEnvy reacts to Puppey taking a break, since he has always been a tryhard. However, do not misinterpret this an unprofessionalism. Puppey has always cared greatly for the team, and taking some time off was necessary for him to perform at his best once again.
Reading the above statements might take a bit of suspense of belief, so bear with me. But if there ever is a reply from Puppey, which is sadly doubtful, we could very well hear some of the above. Either that, or he will "break down" and reveal all the nasty facts of the situation (for instance, that he was duped by Kemal and has finally come to this realization).
But, what is Valve doing in all this mess? They can't just close their eyes, if Secret doesn't give explanations, i think they should disqualify them from Valve's tournaments.
On October 11 2016 05:21 Zea! wrote: But, what is Valve doing in all this mess? They can't just close their eyes, if Secret doesn't give explanations, i think they should disqualify them from Valve's tournaments.
Why the fuck should PLD, MP, Midone, and Forev be punished because Puppey and kemal is being shady they send invites to players anyways so that would never happen.
On October 11 2016 05:15 Asjo wrote: Bringing in the porn star was necessary for team morale (and a big expense indeed), and Kemal has never claimed to pay for this.
I rarely post anything, but this time I would like to present you some personal thoughts on the matter.
Why did Puppey started this team. What was his initial reason for doing this? My answer is that it was because he already KNEW how things are operating in this area. He KNEW that is okay for prize money to be delayed. He KNEW that he can get away with such act. So what was his plan? What were his actions?
My personal explanation is that they were using the money all the time. Investing them in something, maybe betting them on something, maybe lending them to someone and so on. This was the intention from the beginning and it started happening with the first prize winnings at that time. We know that at the market sometimes you are a hero, but sometimes you are a zero, so lets imagine that he and Kemal have lost the money from the prize winning of Misery and many others that haven't received their payments. From that point they have to find a new capital in order to compensate the previous losses. This is the beginning of a pyramid, as they call it or a never ending cycle in which at some point you come up with excuses like - we are taking 10% of your winnings, we are giving that person such salary and that person such salary and so on, so that you can hide the lost. The same scheme is used with deposits, although the bank has a huge capital to play with, so they are able to easily replenish the money if needed. Puppey can't. So, in order for him to replenish the money he needs new transactions. What is the easiest way to supply yourself with money at this point winning tournaments will do, so he goes for new players and so on. Endless cycle. Or the so called loop. On the other hand, its quite possible that the investment that was made with the prize money is a long duration one and they still need time to get the money back and come up with a profit. This is a huge capital ran by those people, a capital which is not even bound by any kind of contract.
This comes to my second point. Not having contracts. This is the most unbelievable part for me. I know that its true and it was said in the both blogs, but who the hell would leave all of his prize money in somebody else's bank account without having any kind of guarantee that these people would give him his fair share? How can you sue somebody if you don't have any documents regarding the obligations of the two sides. This is crazy. Thank god nowadays that there is sunsfan.
My third argument is a possible explanation of Puppey's behavior. I find it hard to believe that he was always that kind of jerk. Because you can hardly achieve what he have achieved without proper usage of social interactions. His problem in the current situation is that he though that it would be easy and it would be profitable, yea their payments are delayed but who cares if they have a good salary and so on. I believe he thought that he is not doing something bad. But as the time progresses and maybe after the huge losses occurred, he was forced to face the consequences - he had to lie to his teammates that everything is ok, that they will get all of their money and at the same time be their captain. This is a huge stress. One can understand why he started drinking and his passion for dota stopped. Huge pressure was at his shouders. He started to build anger inside to a point when he just couldn't keep it in himself. These are those explosions that Envy talked about. He said it himself. Things are not black and white. Its quite possible that he may had the good intention of starting his own business on the background and using it to pay the players in the beginning but his hand was a little bit difficult to play and as it happens in the end - people like Kemal can easily use that kind of frustration to manipulate inexperienced players. I can even imagine that they could have invested in businesses closely related to Kemal. So in the very end Puppey is turning to drugs and booze.
Well, my interpretation is quite fictional, but its definitely plausible. My personal guess is that Puppey does not have an easy time as well at the moment.
pawinthecrowd, I suppose that explanation is just as possible as mine (that Kemal is leeching money and delaying the payout of past winnings until future winnings can pay for them, trying to keep things under tabs as long as possible by making promises about future gains). At least, it would account for how things seem to have escalated in a strange manner at certain points throughout the course of events:
- Old Puppey persona: Ballsy guy who doesn't give a shit, so he bets all the team's winnings. Go big or go home. - New Puppey persona: Scheming and careful guy, who is slowly unraveling while still desperately trying to cover up his past messes and is manipulating everyone to keep the situation under control.
Of course, once we get that specific, I feel a bit guilty about discussing what is basically "conspiracy theories" :o
On October 11 2016 05:15 Asjo wrote: Bringing in the porn star was necessary for team morale (and a big expense indeed), and Kemal has never claimed to pay for this.
Who is this guy :D Huge troll.
If I had to write a wall of text, I figured I could at least give people a chuckle :D
On October 11 2016 05:21 Zea! wrote: But, what is Valve doing in all this mess? They can't just close their eyes, if Secret doesn't give explanations, i think they should disqualify them from Valve's tournaments.
Why the fuck should PLD, MP, Midone, and Forev be punished because Puppey and kemal is being shady they send invites to players anyways so that would never happen.
I suppose the idea would be that they are not being punished, but instead are being saved from a shady organization. They can still play, just under another organization. Of course, Valve would take no such action without more concrete proof of wrongdoings.
They can't just screw secret by not letting them play. That would be a horrible thing to do to the 4 other players. Perhaps they could offer the 4 other players a 1 time chance to switch out puppey for someone else without penalty. Let them run with PPD or someone instead of puppey and not have to go to open qualifiers because of it.
There is also some possibility that this Kemal guy has some hold on Puppey for whatever reason. Maybe Puppey used/invested all his previous earnings into the team and Kemal is the one sitting on his money since he is managing the financial aspect of the team. So he is kinda forced to just do whatever this Kemal guy wants so he doesn't just run away with the company/his money. Would explain his anger if he feels he is under alot of stress. But for that to be true, Puppey must be really naive/stupid and he never struck me as being that.
With all that said, there is pretty much no chance it happened that way.
On October 11 2016 02:09 prplhz wrote: I wonder if staff will shut down this thread as "nothing but allegations" like they did with the Evany blog thread.
While I sympathize with your call for inconsistency, more fuel against the same employer does have accumulative effects, does it not?
In the mean time we can ponder why they were silent, when Evany spoke.
At the time EE, Misery and w33 hadn't been in the team for more than 5 months or so. The delays didn't yet concern them that much and Kemal/Puppey could come up with different excuses for it originally. But then nothing seemingly changed, it became a problem for the new players too, and also this 10% cut thing seems to be pretty recent information for the players. This isn't even only about money being delayed but it disappearing without the players knowing it.
Also pretty sure at the time the players held Puppey in a pretty different light compared to now. Back then if Puppey told them something about Secret and assured them I would assume they take him at his word, but then they had more experiences with him as a teammate, found out that he was apparently making decisions behind their back concerning team finances, and even pretty much screwed up the massive PandaTV deal.
Surely alarm bells rings, when former mates are not being paid for 2015, while you are in a similar boat. A month later, Misery and W33 were history on Secret. Both kept silent. We are now in Oct 2016, 7 months after Misery and W33 were kicked, and 2 months after EE was kicked.
EE wrote this: "After the blog came out Kemal and Puppey assured us that it wouldn’t happen to us. Well, it did.". This is while they have not been paid.
I understand that the 10% is an accumulative thing to already owed money, and other broken promises like a salary.
RTZ even rejoined while allegedly still owed money.
My personal explanation is that they were using the money all the time. Investing them in something, maybe betting them on something, maybe lending them to someone and so on.
yeah this is a common thing i think and a good point. like a company comes into a lot of money , then waits a while before passing it on as salaries to its workers, because in the time that it is holding on to all that money it can invest it
you don't make a shit ton of money just to immediately pay it to your workers. you delay for a bit and make more money from having that shit ton of money :-Z
My personal explanation is that they were using the money all the time. Investing them in something, maybe betting them on something, maybe lending them to someone and so on.
yeah this is a common thing i think and a good point. like a company comes into a lot of money , then waits a while before passing it on as salaries to its workers, because in the time that it is holding on to all that money it can invest it
you don't make a shit ton of money just to immediately pay it to your workers. you delay for a bit and make more money from having that shit ton of money :-Z
Their gain is sponsorship money and donations, not tournament prize money, unless they have that in the contract. Sponsorships for a team of TS's stature shouldn't be hard to get.
If Kemal used the prize money to build his Bootcamp paradise, the least he could do is letting the players in on it, and make them part owners of said paradise, unless they want to sell their part, once they move on.
You are suggesting the players are not paid salaries, and the company just banks their money, which in itself cancels out the need for an organisation, especially when you win a lot of money, and unless they benefit from these investments, it is just giving their money for someone to make himself rich.
It is pretty shady practice to do what you suggest, because, not only are the workers then working for free, they are not secured their earnings, if investments - which in themselves are risks, with no payoff, and future bankruptcy looming.
On October 11 2016 05:49 Zea! wrote: What? How can you even let a team that at this point is clearly scamming his players take part at Valve events?
Until now it's pretty much Envy's words with Misery's backing. Don't get me wrong I personally am on EE's side in this matter, I just want to state out the facts.
Valve can't disqualify a team just because a player or two made a long blog post. Unless Valve steps in and investigate this themselves (or hire someone else to do it), this is pretty much Secret's internal business, and it has nothing to do with Dota2 the game, or Valve's tournaments for that matter. And at this point, I'm not sure if they would even want to investigate further given that it's not exactly their jurisdiction to begin with. Because once they set a precedent, every single conflict in the future between players and owners will require their involvement, which can be too much to handle.
So they accept joining a team without contracts and they wonder why all of this happened? In the future don't join a team without some type of written agreement.
I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. he shits on every single of his ex teammates include bone7, singsing, pieliedie, aui, notail, fata, misery, w33, he has no appreciation of his only winning besides MLG columbus that imo more owe to puppey.
remember this is what EE said right after winning shanghai major
"Despite what some retards think, players are kicked for a reason. I do not owe anyone an explanation except Misery/W33. I rather say nothing about former teammates I respect, than mention what we think are their flaws (the reasons for the change). I will never reveal to the public why misery or w33 were kicked unless they start spewing too much bullshit which they won't."
My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
On October 11 2016 00:35 OuchyDathurts wrote: S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
I'm aware of what s4 said, and that's my point: can you honestly read EE's blogpost and think "Yeah, s4 thought the person being described here was a great captain." Someone who doesn't practice, treats his team like shit? Can you honestly tell me that every player Puppey has played with thought to themselves "Yeah this is legit 10/10"? Reminder: rtz called Puppey one of the best players he ever played with post-TI5 and said he would absolutely make a team with him again
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
of course i did, your boss maybe an asshole, a nerd. it is your choice to listen to him, get along with him or not, they win shanghai major with puppey "bossing" them around didn't they? give your teammate some credit.. And all this is from EE's perspective. Tell me If all this is so true why rtz returns to puppey?
As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
On October 11 2016 00:35 OuchyDathurts wrote: S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
I'm aware of what s4 said, and that's my point: can you honestly read EE's blogpost and think "Yeah, s4 thought the person being described here was a great captain." Someone who doesn't practice, treats his team like shit? Can you honestly tell me that every player Puppey has played with thought to themselves "Yeah this is legit 10/10"? Reminder: rtz called Puppey one of the best players he ever played with post-TI5 and said he would absolutely make a team with him again
You can be a great captain and a lazy, irresponsible bum. It's just a question of how quickly the latter catches up to the former. Besides, I doubt Puppey was that bad throughout his entire Dota 2 career. He might've gotten complacent due to his legacy and thought he could coast based on pure experience; Secret certainly didn't seem well-organized or attuned to the meta during their implosions. EE"s claims about Puppey's condescension and arrogance are easy to believe. Rumors about his bad behavior stretch all the way to Dota 1.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
Eh, Sanford Kelly is far from an upstanding citizen.
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
of course i did, your boss maybe an asshole, a nerd. it is your choice to listen to him, get along with him or not, they win shanghai major with puppey "bossing" them around didn't they? give your teammate some credit.. And all this is from EE's perspective. Tell me If all this is so true why rtz returns to puppey?
never take a single sided story as truth.
It's funny you claim "Puppey is a shitty person" is where EE failed. If anything, there's a plethora of evidence suggesting it that existed long before EE's blog. His reputation as an upstanding, aspirational Dota god is the real mystery. The mystique of old Na'Vi must've been really strong to rub off on him like that.
not sure how much of a good idea this was. Mature thing would have been to get lawyers etc involved and doing it privately - this is a circus at this point.
On October 11 2016 12:42 yookstah wrote: not sure how much of a good idea this was. Mature thing would have been to get lawyers etc involved and doing it privately - this is a circus at this point.
You can't ask for maturity from boys playing video games for a living
On October 11 2016 00:35 OuchyDathurts wrote: S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
I'm aware of what s4 said, and that's my point: can you honestly read EE's blogpost and think "Yeah, s4 thought the person being described here was a great captain." Someone who doesn't practice, treats his team like shit? Can you honestly tell me that every player Puppey has played with thought to themselves "Yeah this is legit 10/10"? Reminder: rtz called Puppey one of the best players he ever played with post-TI5 and said he would absolutely make a team with him again
You can be a great captain and a lazy, irresponsible bum. It's just a question of how quickly the latter catches up to the former. Besides, I doubt Puppey was that bad throughout his entire Dota 2 career. He might've gotten complacent due to his legacy and thought he could coast based on pure experience; Secret certainly didn't seem well-organized or attuned to the meta during their implosions. EE"s claims about Puppey's condescension and arrogance are easy to believe. Rumors about his bad behavior stretch all the way to Dota 1.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
Eh, Sanford Kelly is far from an upstanding citizen.
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
of course i did, your boss maybe an asshole, a nerd. it is your choice to listen to him, get along with him or not, they win shanghai major with puppey "bossing" them around didn't they? give your teammate some credit.. And all this is from EE's perspective. Tell me If all this is so true why rtz returns to puppey?
never take a single sided story as truth.
It's funny you claim "Puppey is a shitty person" is where EE failed. If anything, there's a plethora of evidence suggesting it that existed long before EE's blog. His reputation as an upstanding, aspirational Dota god is the real mystery. The mystique of old Na'Vi must've been really strong to rub off on him like that.
still it is from EE's single point of perspective. to me it sounds like a girl bitching what an asshole her ex-boy friend is..... the facts maybe truth but the interpretation has too much tonal coloration.
On October 11 2016 12:42 yookstah wrote: not sure how much of a good idea this was. Mature thing would have been to get lawyers etc involved and doing it privately - this is a circus at this point.
You can't ask for maturity from boys playing video games for a living
well he practically has aspergers so I'm not surprised he kinda just went all out like this
On October 11 2016 13:08 HolyPepsi wrote: still it is from EE's single point of perspective. to me it sounds like a girl bitching what an asshole her ex-boy friend is..... the facts maybe truth but the interpretation has too much tonal coloration.
His perspective included some undeniable evidence and facts, like Puppey did scam his teammates about prize money (empty promise), or Puppey didn't do his obligation to stream 30H/month for Panda.TV, or how Secret hired a pornstar for TI.
I don't take too much about EE's opinion about Puppey's personality, even though all of us know that EE is an extremely honest guy. Despite all bad opinion about Puppey's personality, EE still said that he won't dismiss Puppey's skill. I think it's fair enough. All of us think highly about Puppey because of his skills and achievements. There were so many ex-teammates testimony about how bad Puppey's personality is, but EE's is the hardest and longest one (i'm not talking about d**k).
There's no way people will look on Puppey the same way as it did before. You can't defend this kind of shit by shifting the blame into EE's blog style, his blog is always like that.
If Secret resist Evany's accusation by saying that it was just an allegation, this time, it's no more allegation. It's full of evidence.
On October 11 2016 13:08 HolyPepsi wrote: still it is from EE's single point of perspective. to me it sounds like a girl bitching what an asshole her ex-boy friend is..... the facts maybe truth but the interpretation has too much tonal coloration.
You need to tone down on the mindless EE hating. He's socially awkward, that's it. You keep trying to make it sound like he's a patient in a mental institution.
It's extremely telling that none of Puppey's former teammates have come to his defense. In light of such huge accusations, you'd think they would speak up. When Universe, the chillest of chill players, is throwing shade on his stream, EE's claims should be given some credence. And it's not like EE was alone in that assessment.
On October 11 2016 00:35 OuchyDathurts wrote: S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
I'm aware of what s4 said, and that's my point: can you honestly read EE's blogpost and think "Yeah, s4 thought the person being described here was a great captain." Someone who doesn't practice, treats his team like shit? Can you honestly tell me that every player Puppey has played with thought to themselves "Yeah this is legit 10/10"? Reminder: rtz called Puppey one of the best players he ever played with post-TI5 and said he would absolutely make a team with him again
You can be a great captain and a lazy, irresponsible bum. It's just a question of how quickly the latter catches up to the former. Besides, I doubt Puppey was that bad throughout his entire Dota 2 career. He might've gotten complacent due to his legacy and thought he could coast based on pure experience; Secret certainly didn't seem well-organized or attuned to the meta during their implosions. EE"s claims about Puppey's condescension and arrogance are easy to believe. Rumors about his bad behavior stretch all the way to Dota 1.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
Eh, Sanford Kelly is far from an upstanding citizen.
On October 11 2016 11:41 HolyPepsi wrote:
On October 11 2016 11:35 Oktyabr wrote:
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
of course i did, your boss maybe an asshole, a nerd. it is your choice to listen to him, get along with him or not, they win shanghai major with puppey "bossing" them around didn't they? give your teammate some credit.. And all this is from EE's perspective. Tell me If all this is so true why rtz returns to puppey?
never take a single sided story as truth.
It's funny you claim "Puppey is a shitty person" is where EE failed. If anything, there's a plethora of evidence suggesting it that existed long before EE's blog. His reputation as an upstanding, aspirational Dota god is the real mystery. The mystique of old Na'Vi must've been really strong to rub off on him like that.
still it is from EE's single point of perspective. to me it sounds like a girl bitching what an asshole her ex-boy friend is..... the facts maybe truth but the interpretation has too much tonal coloration.
no its not, we dont only have EEs blog and then nothing else. secret had internal problems with all their iterations and the only constant factor in all of them is puppey. the puppey - kuroky friendship ended over team secret, there is the leaked conversation between ppy and 1437 that doesnt make him look all that that great either and the most important thing: no one defends ppy. w33ha basically agreed with everything that is said in the two blogs and misery, while focussing on the money, doesnt defend ppy in any way. also it seams like very few western players still want to play with him, i dont think it is a coincidence that the new team secret is a mostly sea team. the most reasonable conclusion so far is, that puppey is an asshole. everything that happend in the last years points to that.
On October 11 2016 00:35 OuchyDathurts wrote: S4 said he was a great captain but a terrible person on his ask.fm. There's screenshots of 1437 with his nose so far up puppey's ass its incredible during the Kuro split. 1437 was Puppey's lapdog so its no surprise he'd be there for round two. Who knows about Artour, maybe he hated being in PPD's team so much he didn't care that he was going back to abusive boyfriend Puppey? Its all speculation we might not ever know why he'd go back to that well.
I'm aware of what s4 said, and that's my point: can you honestly read EE's blogpost and think "Yeah, s4 thought the person being described here was a great captain." Someone who doesn't practice, treats his team like shit? Can you honestly tell me that every player Puppey has played with thought to themselves "Yeah this is legit 10/10"? Reminder: rtz called Puppey one of the best players he ever played with post-TI5 and said he would absolutely make a team with him again
You can be a great captain and a lazy, irresponsible bum. It's just a question of how quickly the latter catches up to the former. Besides, I doubt Puppey was that bad throughout his entire Dota 2 career. He might've gotten complacent due to his legacy and thought he could coast based on pure experience; Secret certainly didn't seem well-organized or attuned to the meta during their implosions. EE"s claims about Puppey's condescension and arrogance are easy to believe. Rumors about his bad behavior stretch all the way to Dota 1.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
Eh, Sanford Kelly is far from an upstanding citizen.
On October 11 2016 11:41 HolyPepsi wrote:
On October 11 2016 11:35 Oktyabr wrote:
On October 11 2016 11:22 HolyPepsi wrote: I would like to humbly express my 2 cents on this matter, based on the fact that I consider myself a matured person and have read countless people in the past.
Before anything, I woud not draw a equal mark between the fact of "TS does not pay players fair" to (not enough fact) "puppey is disgusting person". For the following reason and logic
1. Misery only brought the fact of the money issue with TS, he did not say a bad thing about puppey
2. EE's blog is very pervasive, trying to paint puppey as a "disgusting person" but there are not enough evidence to proove it. EE's blog can be divide into 2 parts:
A. TS shits on their player when it came to money: EE has brought enough evidence to this also misery has confirmed. But to me the evidence towards more to kemal, not puppey. The evidence may suggest many different senarios: I: Puppey is part of this money stealing crime - no evidence say so II: Puppey did not involved in any of this, EE and misery got their money back becasue puppey tried so hard to get money from kemal - which is equallyl ike senecario I, then EE owns puppey apology for this III: Puppey knows many things kemal did, but cannot handle kemal and take in charge of the team (since all the money first go through kemal's pocket). This is the more likely senario to me, I have done business with all different people: people with good wills, con men, naive ppl etc. From my personal judgement on listening to puppey interview, opinion on different things, I think this is more likely the case - he takes partial responsible as a management role of TS which unable to pay players on time. We do not how if he tried or how hard he try to make things right or wrong. -- all this is my guess, no direct evidence suggested so. But these are 3 possible fair senarios.
not mentioning there is no mention of contract terms, seems everything is agreed orally based on good will. its a good lesson for players - again you should not point the gun directly to puppey.
B. Puppey is a shitty person this is the part EE failed horribily, and imo owe puppey a big apology, here is why. Some facts seem to be directly related, but not.
for example: one fact that catches people's attention is how ee describes Kemal and Puppey using tournament's cut for call girls. This can be very misleading: there is no evidence suggesting the money is used for this purpose (EE's imagination). One should never reveal someone's personal life : not everyone is otaku, virgin like EE. People have a choice of their personal life, revealing stories like this without solid evidence (ex hosting a gangbang party or using tournament's cut to host a gangbang party is very different) is very disrespectful to others. I would like EE to reveal his porn search keywords, im sure the story can be equally appealling. People talk shits privately - do not bring it up to against each other.
Drinking: In Estonia or russia, you are crazy if you dont drink. Once again do not judge other's personal life or hobby based on your own.
Lazyness: When did EE last time win anything before joining puppey's team? MLG Columbus 2014. If a person has any bit of appreciation left in his humanity, he should be thankful (like misery did) to their teammates and specially captain for winning a Valve major and other tournaments. Puppey has been winning big tournaments since 2011, EE has not, there is a reason. Why do you think RTZ left his dad fear and rejoin team secrect if puppey and the organization is as shitty as EE described? (given rtz's big ego). Teams do fall off, specially when they just win something big. When the team has bad chemistry, it is everyone's fault. The record only suggests that EE make bad situation worse (like cloud9, he starts kicking or shitting on teammates randomly instead of finding constructive solution). If you blame TS's bad performance for puppey, then it is all puppey's credit for winning shanghai major.
Arrogant: People have personalities, arrogant is a common personality for leaders who sticks to their own ideas - the word can inteperrted in different ways, if you win - arrogant is a good thing. if you lose - ur arrogant. EE is also an arrogant person if im not mistaken. I do not see this as a negative quality.
Monitor smashing: this is the most ridiculous "facts" EE brought up. c'mon, chuan smashes monitor for winning, what's so for losing a game? I mean it's not nice to do it - but do not make a huge deal out of it - kuro and zai seem to be cool about it, and puppey did not try to hide his feeling. Also this video is in 2015, it has nothing to do with EE. Why is he even trying to bring this up? And puppey threatening EE for not releasing this video? I do not see a big deal out of this. It shows puppey is not always cool as ice, more "russian". so what?
---------------------------------- put everythign aside, eveywhere EE goes he is the center gravity for drama - shit always happen around him. Does he attract shit? i don't think so - it is the way he see things. My fair judgement would be TS is not so clean as an organization (like many western clubs, DC is an exception), puppey is still the same puppey.
Did you even read half the blog? You seem to have conveniently skimmed through the part where Puppey fails to show up for practice, uphold his end of streaming just the bare minimum, or even clocking his share of pubs. Or all the other allegations that Envy made about Puppey threatening to fight and w33ha being bullied. I like how you avoid addressing any of Envy's claims and banter about his lack of tournament wins prior to secret and call it fair judgment.
of course i did, your boss maybe an asshole, a nerd. it is your choice to listen to him, get along with him or not, they win shanghai major with puppey "bossing" them around didn't they? give your teammate some credit.. And all this is from EE's perspective. Tell me If all this is so true why rtz returns to puppey?
never take a single sided story as truth.
It's funny you claim "Puppey is a shitty person" is where EE failed. If anything, there's a plethora of evidence suggesting it that existed long before EE's blog. His reputation as an upstanding, aspirational Dota god is the real mystery. The mystique of old Na'Vi must've been really strong to rub off on him like that.
still it is from EE's single point of perspective. to me it sounds like a girl bitching what an asshole her ex-boy friend is..... the facts maybe truth but the interpretation has too much tonal coloration.
It is crazy that some people are still saying that there is no evidence and ppy has done nothing wrong.
Everyone is a fanboy of someone, but at some point people need to realize that their hero has done bad stuff and stop being like its not that big of a deal.
EE's post is full of evidence and its not the first time something like this happend.
Concerning the money part Misery did somewhat point the finger at Puppey too by saying he felt Puppey "didn't give a shit" and that Puppey had been making decisions about the 10% and whatnot behind everyone's back.
Concerning the more personal part about Puppey I somewhat agree that it shouldn't be brought up. Even if all of it would be all accurate, it doesn't really do much good to bring it up and from EE's perspective it might even make his own situation worse if people started firing shots back at him. Though I don't see anyone coming even a bit to Puppey's aid and claim that the stories are not accurate, so my feeling is that EE is not just expressing his own views. But still again even if it's accurate I don't think the information being there does much good and instead just gives random people online material for Puppey memes.
You're right that EE has made comments about his former teammates before, but it has never been even close to this. He's been somewhat open at times when asked on stream or wherever and given his view on a player, but it has never been like this. None of the players you listed were "shat on" completely by him, even if he said some negative things about some.
If we believe PPY told the truth, he is not in charge, and couldn't negotiate with the owner for a better deal. There are two options, either PPY and Kemal are on the same side, or Kemal has total control of Team Secret, thus PPY losing a say, probably because he feels this is Kemals field of expertise.
PPY didn't uphold his end of the bargain, and it always appeared to me, he wanted EE on his team for his workethic, which contrasted XBOCT. This work ethic seems to be manipulated into EE doing most of the runs for the money(sponsor deal, that Kemal landed for greed reasons, and apparently not possible or enforced). Outside less wants to work with PPY, it is not impossible to think that the work ethics of Koreans are to be exploited.
At the end of the day, Team Secret is very poorly managed, and PPY is not up for his part of a captain nor team owner.
It is not very surprising PPY isn't a clever businessman, or at least not having the work ethic to build something from bottom up, but Kemal must be someone who only lives off his dad's wealth, because competent he isn't - scammer or not.
The brand is built on name players. Kemal argued that changing players is not very good for the brand building, yet roster changes has been the call of the captain in most cases.
The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
So if your payment would be reduced by 10 % without you knowing, would it be that big of a deal? And it's not about the 10 % cut. It's about taking 10 % of someones money without telling them and don't planing on paying it bsck ever, which is more or less theft. Also on top you recieve your money months after you earned it.
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
no, i think that 10% is a very big problem actually. for simplicity i will adress puppey/kemal as the owner. first of all, EE repeats often that they never agreed on 10%, so where does it come from? the way i see it, it comes from the owner running the team and having expenses, which are not covered by income. well, simple enough, what is the problem then?
well, some expenses are for the players, like house and meals, and that is sort of fine, but then again, why would the players need the owner if they are going to pay those expenses on their own anyway?
but also, another part of the expenses is even more problematic and that is expenses for the team/the brand. invesment in the infrastructure(for example paying people for website) and also in the trademark bye expanding into other games. this money is spent to advance the team, invest in future profits.
and maybe the owner is even a good guy who will share those profits with the players later on, once they come in. but he is not going to share the team, the stakes in the team with the current players, whose money he is taking to invest right now. at the end of the day it is the owners team, players can come and go, but whatever the team gains in the long run is for the owner to reap.
to me it is obvious that this is completely wrong, and any invesments should be payed out of the owners pocket, because he is the one who will gain the profits
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are loosing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
They did have some sponsors though (one massive one even with Panda), and they have Kemal who presumably is loaded with cash. The blog seems to state that the players were led to believe that Kemal is covering for some of the costs. Though of course it's fine if he doesn't want to throw around his money and instead just works for the organization to make it sustainable, but the issue seems to be that this wasn't what was said and there is little transparency as far as what money is coming in and where it is going to. Players are told "don't worry I got it covered", and then secretly some money is apparently taken from the players' earnings to cover it. Players don't know what exactly were the costs of different things (they are told not to worry about it), so they don't really know if the 10% or the Panda money actually goes to that or if it's just sitting somewhere. I think from a player's perspective if it sits on the company account it's basically Puppey's and Kemal's if they own the company, one of whom seemingly pretty much screwed up the PandaTV deal for the team and the other who hasn't got any decent sponsors for the team. It isn't really a surprise that it would make the players mad.
Of course it's clear that stuff isn't free so the money has to come from somewhere, and I doubt anyone would be complaining about the cut if it was transparently agreed on that this is the way the team operates. Certainly players like EE and Misery also have to look at themselves for not being more active and making sure they have the agreements in writing and everything is as they want. But it's the continued lack of proper communication from Secret towards the players (going back to the old rosters too) and the apparent misinformation about where the money is coming from that makes people mad.
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
Usually it isn't unusual to see this kind of setup(with 10% cut in the tournament prices i mean alot of the known orgs today do that and has been doing that) shouldn't be a big problem except
* that the whole point as to why Team Secret was formed was to avoid this abuses and transparent honest financial handling within the organization(aka no sneaky financial movement within). Go look up the things like the motivation of the formation of Team Secret like in the interviews etc etc back in the first iteration notail, fly, puppey, s4 and kuroky roster. This is literally why Team Secret is formed to avoid this kind of abuses. (you would this entire situation ironic if you knew why Team Secret was formed lol)
* The 10% cut wasn't known to the team. So Team Secret suddenly decided to make 10% cut's without informing the team. Think about it this way, lets say where you work never said from the start that they would be taking from your salary to fund the financial expenses of the workplace itself so lets say the promised $1000 dollars a month as salary then the day you get payed it suddenly only turn into $900 dollars without any explanation whatsoever or informing you that they will take $100. The big difference with EG/c9/Alliance/whatever is that the players are INFORMED that they are gonna take some cut from the tournament price they win and the players mutually agreed upon it. Team Secret did not apparently.
The delayed money is a pretty big deal, in misery's blog he had to pester them and he was kicked twice in the team before he got what the org owns him(that's a pretty long ass time from the first time he was in Secret to the 2nd time he was).
I assume that work now or selfemployed, right ? Think of the salary or the profits arriving a year after it's intended. Now will you put up with that and just say "eh it's pretty irrelevant it's just delayed" ? That's not something that is ok unless they asked your consent right from the beginning that they would only pay you(or get payed) a year after and you agreed to it.
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
having your money payed 6 months later is fine for you? get a financial advisor bro
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
having your money payed 6 months later is fine for you? get a financial advisor bro
Not would not even be the worst, it would that getting paid more than a year later, only to find this accumulated owed money will be cut by10%, not to mention whatever tax problems it will have.
Having said this, I am not sure how legal it is that Misery asks for the money to be delayed, so he can place them in a company. That smells tax evasion.
Now im worried about my boy MidOne future career. Hope he can still deliver good play even with current Secret toxic and shady environment. And hope he smart enough to leave Secret once transfer window open (unless Secret become more fair and transparent about payment and that delayed shit things)
The shitshow commences... . The last time this happened, I was quite upset that my beloved TeamSecret had turned to such a monstrosity. Now I am just "meh ... whatever". This team was gone for me already some time ago. It had an upswing and I actually cheered for them as long as they had W33 and Misery. But their kicks and all the financial fiasco finally makes me smile devilish every time I see them loose. It's just a real pleasure for me to watch them fail like they did at TI. Thanks for that! I'd rather cheer for them, but it seems to have become impossible. And the more I read from Puppey, the less I actually like him ... and I start asking myself: Why did I think he was kinda a good guy in the first place? He never did or said anything to deserve that - he just never gave me reason to not believe that. Somehow that was enough to make his fall in my opinion surprising.
Good bye again, "player-run" Secret, it was nice watching you ... for a brief while in 2014/15, the short while that we believed the fairytale that was your invention. GG, "wp".
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
having your money payed 6 months later is fine for you? get a financial advisor bro
Clearly you didn't read, because I said that IS a problem.
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are losing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
Usually it isn't unusual to see this kind of setup(with 10% cut in the tournament prices i mean alot of the known orgs today do that and has been doing that) shouldn't be a big problem except
* that the whole point as to why Team Secret was formed was to avoid this abuses and transparent honest financial handling within the organization(aka no sneaky financial movement within). Go look up the things like the motivation of the formation of Team Secret like in the interviews etc etc back in the first iteration notail, fly, puppey, s4 and kuroky roster. This is literally why Team Secret is formed to avoid this kind of abuses. (you would this entire situation ironic if you knew why Team Secret was formed lol)
* The 10% cut wasn't known to the team. So Team Secret suddenly decided to make 10% cut's without informing the team. Think about it this way, lets say where you work never said from the start that they would be taking from your salary to fund the financial expenses of the workplace itself so lets say the promised $1000 dollars a month as salary then the day you get payed it suddenly only turn into $900 dollars without any explanation whatsoever or informing you that they will take $100. The big difference with EG/c9/Alliance/whatever is that the players are INFORMED that they are gonna take some cut from the tournament price they win and the players mutually agreed upon it. Team Secret did not apparently.
The delayed money is a pretty big deal, in misery's blog he had to pester them and he was kicked twice in the team before he got what the org owns him(that's a pretty long ass time from the first time he was in Secret to the 2nd time he was).
I assume that work now or selfemployed, right ? Think of the salary or the profits arriving a year after it's intended. Now will you put up with that and just say "eh it's pretty irrelevant it's just delayed" ? That's not something that is ok unless they asked your consent right from the beginning that they would only pay you(or get payed) a year after and you agreed to it.
I don't disagree that the money being paid out late is a big problem, but the fact is that none of the players so far who've gone public with this have presented any written evidence of the 0% cut in the form of a contract or anything that's legally binding.
There is a lot of people who get burned in what are otherwise considered to be respectable businesses worldwide all of the time. Just because the company is formed with a certain ideology, it doesn't mean that that ideology can be maintained or even ever fully exist. In a case of vocal agreements, there are just a lot of feelings and opinions, there isn't much right or wrong. Also, with vocal conversations, depending on the timing where things were said, they could have been forgotten and/or misunderstood. Now, I could be corrected if the players had signed some kind of agreement, otherwise, I don't see the issue. There is also no proof that the players were unaware. They even claimed to receive "random amounts of money" and just continued to "trust in the system".
Like, imagine you receive your first pay check and you're like, this is not the amount I'm owed for commission on any of the items I sold (How hard is it to calculate that this is not 1/5 of any of the tournament winnings? - You can even ask the tournament for details). It seems to me that unless there is some form of written evidence supporting the player's claim that there was in fact no way of knowing and/or agreed to something else in a legally binding way, they come out as being naive moreso than anything else.
On October 11 2016 16:19 Eywa- wrote: The team was not backed by sponsors, yet there was an organization behind them, team building activities and benefits... And the 4 other players on the team think that this is free, 0% cut. Seems like EE and co. were a bit naive in thinking that.
The only thing that is problematic here is the delayed payments (which now that it is paid out kind of makes the blog look pretty irrelevant)
Like, is a 10% cut from all non-valve events even that big of a deal for a team like secret?
I really don't see why people are loosing their minds over this given that the players involved are now financially whole.
They did have some sponsors though (one massive one even with Panda), and they have Kemal who presumably is loaded with cash. The blog seems to state that the players were led to believe that Kemal is covering for some of the costs. Though of course it's fine if he doesn't want to throw around his money and instead just works for the organization to make it sustainable, but the issue seems to be that this wasn't what was said and there is little transparency as far as what money is coming in and where it is going to. Players are told "don't worry I got it covered", and then secretly some money is apparently taken from the players' earnings to cover it. Players don't know what exactly were the costs of different things (they are told not to worry about it), so they don't really know if the 10% or the Panda money actually goes to that or if it's just sitting somewhere. I think from a player's perspective if it sits on the company account it's basically Puppey's and Kemal's if they own the company, one of whom seemingly pretty much screwed up the PandaTV deal for the team and the other who hasn't got any decent sponsors for the team. It isn't really a surprise that it would make the players mad.
Of course it's clear that stuff isn't free so the money has to come from somewhere, and I doubt anyone would be complaining about the cut if it was transparently agreed on that this is the way the team operates. Certainly players like EE and Misery also have to look at themselves for not being more active and making sure they have the agreements in writing and everything is as they want. But it's the continued lack of proper communication from Secret towards the players (going back to the old rosters too) and the apparent misinformation about where the money is coming from that makes people mad.
Also some of the money still isn't payed out.
For the portion that isn't paid out, EE says in his blog everything but the 10% he is owed is paid out. He's not getting any more money.
My biggest issue with this whole story is in pretty much any other job position, if someone told you this after working for someone for a year, you'd probably call them an idiot for not looking for a new job or figuring it out sooner and dealing with the reality (because the reality of the situation here is not that bad, they still got a lot of money).
While it is not recommended, a verbal contract is considered binding in the US(probably elsewhere as well). And with the released message transcripts, it can be considered a written agreement as well. And its pretty important for verbal agreements to be binding, as otherwise a lot of simple everyday things would require written agreements. Ie hailing a taxi, ordering in a restaurant, etc etc.
On October 12 2016 00:44 stink123 wrote: While it is not recommended, a verbal contract is considered binding in the US(probably elsewhere as well). And with the released message transcripts, it can be considered a written agreement as well. And its pretty important for verbal agreements to be binding, as otherwise a lot of simple everyday things would require written agreements. Ie hailing a taxi, ordering in a restaurant, etc etc.
With evidence, yes, however, the blogs are mostly opinion pieces of people who were directly affected. There are very few facts in the blog other than: The players have had a hard time getting paid on time.
On October 12 2016 01:08 Saechiis wrote: These stories paint a Puppey that has lost his Dota passion and is abusing his established position to make a comfortable living.
Well not all that unexpected after KKY, N0tail, and Fly were not getting paid long ago, while PPY all seemed happy and content.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
I think that outside the context of the situation, it is also related to how opposite it is of the public image of PPY, who has always come off as this calm and collected guy, even in stressful situations.
If this was like say, Ar1se, I think people would expect this, and shrug at this part.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
I think that outside the context of the situation, it is also related to how opposite it is of the public image of PPY, who has always come off as this calm and collected guy, even in stressful situations.
If this was like say, Ar1se, I think people would expect this, and shrug at this part.
Everyone is forgeting that puppey lied about breaking it and when EE said he had video evidence he told him that if he shawed it he would get kicked out of secret.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
I think that outside the context of the situation, it is also related to how opposite it is of the public image of PPY, who has always come off as this calm and collected guy, even in stressful situations.
If this was like say, Ar1se, I think people would expect this, and shrug at this part.
Everyone is forgeting that puppey lied about breaking it and when EE said he had video evidence he told him that if he shawed it he would get kicked out of secret.
I don't think the lie is of essence, but the reveal of a conflicting and detrimental image of PPY.
"The scariest moment in my time with secret was during our practices, when Puppey would walk around with a machete and talk about how he always wanted to see what the inside of a human looked like. He said he had experimented on animals before and he wanted to go for the real thing. I believed him."
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
I think that outside the context of the situation, it is also related to how opposite it is of the public image of PPY, who has always come off as this calm and collected guy, even in stressful situations.
If this was like say, Ar1se, I think people would expect this, and shrug at this part.
Everyone is forgeting that puppey lied about breaking it and when EE said he had video evidence he told him that if he shawed it he would get kicked out of secret.
I don't think people forget what EE has told us. Regardlessly, it is not something that someone who thrives on his public image would want, and it now surfaces 1½ years later, rather than being caught in a lie. I don't think the threat was about the lie, but the public image.
I think that the reason EE said this is not to prove that puppey rages a lot but to talk about how he was threatened by him.
On October 11 2016 12:12 Dysisa wrote: As funny as I do find the video to be, I fully agree that people are making a bigger deal out of the monitor smashing video than it is. Everyone snaps sooner or later, because of something or another. For comparison, over in the Street Fighter community we have a guy named Sanford Kelly. He has a reputation for getting a little angry at times, but he's not some kinda horrible person, far from it.
The video is definitely not a good sign, but it's also not some sort of undeniable proof of that he is a monster.
i've seen threads on pokerforums where winning players smash their monitor on a weekly basis or completely trash their table. if puppey did that once it's barely worth mentioning although obviously funny to watch.
the community is overreacting as usual, the delayed payment sucks and should be called out. calling for puppeys head/banning secret from tournaments is fucking retarded.
I think that outside the context of the situation, it is also related to how opposite it is of the public image of PPY, who has always come off as this calm and collected guy, even in stressful situations.
If this was like say, Ar1se, I think people would expect this, and shrug at this part.
Everyone is forgeting that puppey lied about breaking it and when EE said he had video evidence he told him that if he shawed it he would get kicked out of secret.
I don't think people forget what EE has told us. Regardlessly, it is not something that someone who thrives on his public image would want, and it now surfaces 1½ years later, rather than being caught in a lie. I don't think the threat was about the lie, but the public image.
I think that the reason EE said this is not to prove that puppey rages a lot but to talk about how he was threatened by him.
The essence is not the lie, but the reveal of a lesser endearing image of PPY. I am sure the threat was part of why EE said it, both to reveal the lengths that PPY would go to to protect his image, but also his personality.
One thing that really feels funky is the 3 other sponsors (100TB, Nvidia, and EGB). I can understand that 1 of those sponsors didn't pay anything, but non of them paying anything..... I mean c'mon, puppey got his face on nvidia products.
There must have been money coming in. Then again. The players haven't made any deals about getting sponsor money so... kinda hard to say is there even any reason to flame about that. Lot of this is also to blame on secret players for not getting any contracts done. Kind of a clusterfuck.
about these oral contracts, tell that to fifa, oral contracts at the end mean nothing and from the transcripts, both kemal and puppey dispute EE's claims, so that's that
apart from that, all this is speculation here, we shall see what happens next if at all anything
Don't think Envy is really asking for them to honour oral contracts at this point. The point is showing that Secret was a badly run and poorly managed team, that Puppey is no better than dozens of other team owners who failed before him, and that people should at least know what they're getting into before jumping in.
The fact that the contracts were oral only emphasizes the bad business.
On October 12 2016 04:36 Zea! wrote: So still no answer/clarification by Secret yet?.... That's unbelievable
You actually expect one? They'll keep their mouths shut I'm sure, maybe press legal charges against Envy if possible. Besides, what on Earth could they possibly write to make this look better for themselves except a complete apology and a decision to disband?
On October 12 2016 04:36 Zea! wrote: So still no answer/clarification by Secret yet?.... That's unbelievable
You actually expect one? They'll keep their mouths shut I'm sure, maybe press legal charges against Envy if possible. Besides, what on Earth could they possibly write to make this look better for themselves except a complete apology and a decision to disband?
Lol legal charges against envy? Get a reality check... this isn't a tv show.
On October 12 2016 03:29 Nikto wrote: about these oral contracts, tell that to fifa, oral contracts at the end mean nothing and from the transcripts, both kemal and puppey dispute EE's claims, so that's that
apart from that, all this is speculation here, we shall see what happens next if at all anything
Yeah, nobody is expecting these oral contracts to be upheld. That's not what anyone is talking about; there isn't going to be some legal case here.
But even ignoring the illegality, if you think Puppey and Kemal have behaved remotely acceptably by going back on their promise regarding hundreds of thousands of dollars and hiding that, along with late payment, issues with communication, etc., you have a really fucked up understanding of what's OK behaviour, especially given that the entire purpose of Secret was to work for the players and be honest and trustworthy and non-shady and etc.
Denying these accusations is just blind. We have more than enough evidence.
The only entity that can enforce dota contracts is valve, through arbitration. Valve is king, because they can control players' or teams' eligibility to their events.
If valve doesn't care, then formal contracts are mere pieces of paper because is way too impractical to do international litigation.
On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote: I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
I think XBOCT was the only one hold the post-TI4 Na'Vi for it to still be a team.
After that Artstyle came back for his long-time friends, after seeing his student has abandon the team he was so passionate about.
What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
On October 12 2016 01:08 Saechiis wrote: These stories paint a Puppey that has lost his Dota passion and is abusing his established position to make a comfortable living.
More like a sociopath who's found his niche: a steady supply of people easy to bully and manipulate. In any other environment one of his "You want to know who is right? Fight me!" would get accepted, he'd get beaten by the other four and thereby proven wrong by his own account
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself (this comment, for instance).
Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already.
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
I should focus your attention on the assumption that, hypothetically, Secret could be only one of the establishments used to launder money (if that really happens; though imo we can't exlcude this possibility atm). It's not that it's super easy to launder the moneyz i assume, so the more tools you have at your disposal - the better.
On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote: ... The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mostly because your a Puppey fan, lets be real lol
On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote: ... The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mostly because your a Puppey fan, lets be real lol
I mean, I don't think that anyone in the dota 2 community can say that they've never been a fan.
That doesn't discredit anything I'm saying though, if
1) 2 people can independently give a time and place where the finances were discussed 2) Envy can give a reason why he would have been too distracted at the time to think about it or care about it 3) And Envy was relying on Puppey to do the right thing for him without paying attention to the business side of things
Then, it seems very plausible that Envy did not know about any of the business side due to his own ignorance and not the team's failure to communicate it to him.
When the Evany stuff went down, they even added a big disclaimer at the top of every page of the thread specifying that we don't have the full picture since Team Secret hadn't commented on it yet. I'm actually curious why the mods have opted not to do so this time too. Seems very inconsistent to me, or perhaps they just realized how silly it was to do that last time.
On October 13 2016 07:14 Dysisa wrote: When the Evany stuff went down, they even added a big disclaimer at the top of every page of the thread specifying that we don't have the full picture since Team Secret hadn't commented on it yet. I'm actually curious why the mods have opted not to do so this time too. Seems very inconsistent to me, or perhaps they just realized how silly it was to do that last time.
I think there are a couple reasons for that
1) The delayed payments is basically confirmed
2) EE is a bigger deal and people believe what he puts out (which is fine, because it doesn't seem like he's lying, but there is potential for neither party to be lying based on the text messages - In this case EE would just be misinformed due to his own shortcomings on that front)
On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote: Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mind boggling to me how some people are still trying to defend Secret. There is no question Puppey's organization stole from the other members of his team. There is enough evidence to indicate that none of Secret's ex-members knew about the 10% cut, and in fact, they had all talked about and agreed on having no cuts at all.
Verbal agreements are legally binding (http://thelawdictionary.org/article/is-a-verbal-agreement-legally-binding/). Not having written contracts has no bearing on whether the law was broken, only on how difficult it would be to litigate against Secret if it came to that point (and it's pretty clear the players involved don't have any desire to take matters to court). Even if they did have written contracts, good luck suing an Estonian and a Turk.
Also, whether Envy was ignorant of Secret's internal business dealings has nothing to do with anything at all. He isn't responsible for Secret's business. He's just a player, and in fact, if you actually read Envy's blog, every time he asked Puppey and Kemal about business issues and sponsorships they brushed him off and told him to focus on playing Dota. Regardless, if a factory worker's boss secretly took 10% out of his paycheck to pay for company expenses and overhead "for the good of the company", you would never justify the actions of the boss by blaming the worker for failing to understand the business. Why is it any different here?
The only thing that matters in this case for determining wrongdoing is whether Puppey (Secret's owner) and the other players had a mutual understanding that there would be no cuts on tournament winnings. I think it's pretty safe to say that's indisputable at this point. Not to mention both Misery and Envy said they were being payed in random amounts at random intervals and were never told where the money actually came from. That sounds super shady to me and seems purposely designed to obfuscate. It's no wonder no one noticed the money was missing for so long.
Edit: Also, I'd be pretty pissed, and rightfully so, if someone lost me 200k because they were too lazy to fulfill their contractual obligations when I went above and beyond to fulfill mine.
In addition to the in general slow payments the more concrete "accusations" were money still missing (for example from w33 as stated in Misery's blog, and EE seems to talk about some other people, not sure if players, coaches or staff, who weren't being payed but that's less concrete), and the 10% prize cut which was hidden to all players due to talks of no cuts (both Misery and EE were fully under this impression). Also not only based on this but also the Evany blog the communication from Secret's side seems to be laughable at best towards the players.
You're right that the Panda deal seems to have been talked about and indeed quite a bit of the blog is just about "is this right" rather than "Secret did specifically x wrong". Also the Puppey part even being there indicates that EE isn't trying to be as polite as possible while trying to get what he and others are owed, but is rather pissed (who knows if something else was said that isn't in the blog).
Maybe there isn't clear lying as far as the Panda money goes, but clearly EE specifically is getting pretty royally screwed there. He was denied getting personal sponsorships, he got the team the deal, and most of the money is going (in a not transparent way) to paying all sorts of stuff and only a small portion comes back to the dota players. Maybe the money actually goes to growing Secret as a "business" and maybe it was agreed to be like this, EE was just not paying attention and there's no wrong doing that way. However, It isn't too surprising for there to be suspicion when you combine it with the recently revealed 10% cut, poor general communication and transparency from Secret's side and incredibly delayed or missing payments. But I agree that in this part it's more about wondering who is using the money and how rather than a concrete accusation of something specific. In any case let's just say that it doesn't give the impression Secret is an organization built to be beneficial for the players who are bringing in the revenue.
On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote: Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mind boggling to me how some people are still trying to defend Secret. There is no question Puppey's organization stole from the other members of his team. There is enough evidence to indicate that none of Secret's ex-members knew about the 10% cut, and in fact, they had all talked about and agreed on having no cuts at all.
Verbal agreements are legally binding (http://thelawdictionary.org/article/is-a-verbal-agreement-legally-binding/). Not having written contracts has no bearing on whether the law was broken, only on how difficult it would be to litigate against Secret if it came to that point (and it's pretty clear the players involved don't have any desire to take matters to court). Even if they did have written contracts, good luck suing an Estonian and a Turk.
Also, whether Envy was ignorant of Secret's internal business dealings has nothing to do with anything at all. He isn't responsible for Secret's business. He's just a player, and in fact, if you actually read Envy's blog, every time he asked Puppey and Kemal about business issues and sponsorships they brushed him off and told him to focus on playing Dota. Regardless, if a factory worker's boss secretly took 10% out of his paycheck to pay for company expenses and overhead "for the good of the company", you would never justify the actions of the boss by blaming the worker for failing to understand the business. Why is it any different here?
The only thing that matters in this case for determining wrongdoing is whether Puppey (Secret's owner) and the other players had a mutual understanding that there would be no cuts on tournament winnings. I think it's pretty safe to say that's indisputable at this point. Not to mention both Misery and Envy said they were being payed in random amounts at random intervals and were never told where the money actually came from. That sounds super shady to me and seems purposely designed to obfuscate. It's no wonder no one noticed the money was missing for so long.
Edit: Also, I'd be pretty pissed, and rightfully so, if someone lost me 200k because they were too lazy to fulfill their contractual obligations when I went above and beyond to fulfill mine.
Yeah this, basically.
Moreover, what are we talking about, 300k $ a year? Or total, doesn't matter. These guys can easily afford lawyers. They clearly don't want to. They seem to prefer the PR side of things.
On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote: Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts.
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself (this comment, for instance).
Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already.
Kemal could use the money the team wins to eat lobster and drink whiskey 3 times a day for the past 2 years? He could use the money to buy houses, boats, or jewelry for his wife? The list goes on. It's clear he spent money for that team house. It's clear he sent them all over the planet, bought dinners and they had a lavish lifestyle. They paid a porn star. Probably paid for a bunch more shit EE didn't mention or forgot about.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
This is why the scene is hella immature. We aspire to be recognised as comparable to real sports, yet the dota model has so many issues.
1. Non valve tournaments are not self sustainable. You need sponsors to pump money to the tournament. Revenue source is insufficient because valve takes a huge cut in ticket sales, and ads/lan tickets are insignificant compared to the massive prize pools.
2. Teams/tournaments hiring friends/nerds/gamers to do jobs that a specialist should be doing. Accounts, IT etc.
3. There's no strong entity that can force teams/players to comply to contracts, and in turn make contracts something more than pieces of paper. Valve obviously can do it, but they have been quiet
yeah whether people like it or not esports needs an organisation that acts as a governing body for the game. as much as people hated kespa, without kespa korean esports wouldnt even exist and dota needs something similar. like duck said, you cant just have nerds bring in their friends and make friendship bracelets to form a team and play seriously. the whole industry generates money and is therefore business. everything inside should be run as a business is also.
this is also why to this day i think the dumbest business decision valve has ever made and will ever make when it comes to dota is failing to enter the korean market. the infrastructure already in place as well as a governing body would have allowed dota to grow in a much more stable environment and more importantly steps could have been taken to protect players and teams far better, at the tradeoff of korea being the centre of dota just like sc and lol.
On October 13 2016 17:47 DucK- wrote: This is why the scene is hella immature. We aspire to be recognised as comparable to real sports, yet the dota model has so many issues.
Look at the bright side : we now have pornstars and shady owners, a step closer. Let's not forget match fixing. We could also compare hacks to doping. Let's be honest, real sports have a way more toxic environment, I don't want esports to emulate this model. And concerning revenues, there are lots of sportsmen backed by governments or billionaires having fun otherwise they would not be anywhere close to get that kind of revenue.
On October 13 2016 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: yeah whether people like it or not esports needs an organisation that acts as a governing body for the game. as much as people hated kespa, without kespa korean esports wouldnt even exist and dota needs something similar. like duck said, you cant just have nerds bring in their friends and make friendship bracelets to form a team and play seriously. the whole industry generates money and is therefore business. everything inside should be run as a business is also.
this is also why to this day i think the dumbest business decision valve has ever made and will ever make when it comes to dota is failing to enter the korean market. the infrastructure already in place as well as a governing body would have allowed dota to grow in a much more stable environment and more importantly steps could have been taken to protect players and teams far better, at the tradeoff of korea being the centre of dota just like sc and lol.
Kinda sad but true, no matter how scummy kespa was they were the reasons SC were big. I guess Riot was smart enough to cooperate with them and made LoL as the king of the game in Korea.
Despite many praises to Valve, i don't see them ever market their product. They rely heavily on " our product speak for itself".The only thing that made Dota2 big was because it was already big thanks to Icefrog and loyal fans of dota1. That's why the dota2 never really took off in US because there's barely any advertising besides the big International competition.
I wonder if Valve gonna try again to capture Korean market with different strategy like they did with counter strike online.
On October 13 2016 17:47 DucK- wrote: This is why the scene is hella immature. We aspire to be recognised as comparable to real sports, yet the dota model has so many issues.
Look at the bright side : we now have pornstars and shady owners, a step closer. Let's not forget match fixing. We could also compare hacks to doping. Let's be honest, real sports have a way more toxic environment, I don't want esports to emulate this model. And concerning revenues, there are lots of sportsmen backed by governments or billionaires having fun otherwise they would not be anywhere close to get that kind of revenue.
Yea lots of sports don't bring in revenue, that's why their prize pool is small. Here we have very insane prize pools relative to the revenues. And most of the money in the scene flows to the players, not to the people supporting in the background. It is not healthy that only players make money, while the rest are doing so out of passion. The tournament organisers/casters/production etc all need to be adequately remunerated first, then you can dispense the rest of the money however much it is to the players. Right now it works the other way: players promised huge money first, and what's left is thinly spread to the non players.
Tickets was a great idea by valve to help tournament organisers earn revenue and support a high prize pool., except valve eats way too much of it. Only valve tournaments can more than sustain themselves. Doesn't help that tournaments are free to watch on twitch.
I take vacations for a month and this happens.... I love Secret, they keep delivering.
Well done Poopey.
I hope interviewers bring this up every interview so we can see him grabbing the listening device then proceed to smash it against the closest displaying device.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
On October 13 2016 17:47 DucK- wrote: This is why the scene is hella immature. We aspire to be recognised as comparable to real sports, yet the dota model has so many issues.
Look at the bright side : we now have pornstars and shady owners, a step closer. Let's not forget match fixing. We could also compare hacks to doping. Let's be honest, real sports have a way more toxic environment, I don't want esports to emulate this model. And concerning revenues, there are lots of sportsmen backed by governments or billionaires having fun otherwise they would not be anywhere close to get that kind of revenue.
The nice thing is that esports have both hacking AND doping.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head.
@Duck- I really like your posts.
So basically you're saying, Fly, n0tail, EE, Misery and w33's experiences are irrelevant, and only Pie's experience is relevant?
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head.
@Duck- I really like your posts.
So basically you're saying, Fly, n0tail, EE, Misery and w33's experiences are irrelevant, and only Pie's experience is relevant?
That's some next level mental gymnastics.
At this point anyone who still has a secret flair is doing some serious mental gymnastics.
Finally took the time to read it, jesus fucking christ, could have been shorter.
If even half of that puppey shit is true, damn puppey. Some of it can be chalked up to leadership style, some is down right disturbing and I dont even mean about the missing money. Thats just greed, plain and simple.
Such a favorite of mine, oh well, was contemplating whether I should have OG/DC/Secret flair. Guess the decision has been made a bit simpler for me..
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head.
@Duck- I really like your posts.
So basically you're saying, Fly, n0tail, EE, Misery and w33's experiences are irrelevant, and only Pie's experience is relevant?
That's some next level mental gymnastics.
At this point anyone who still has a secret flair is doing some serious mental gymnastics.
I actually changed the icon from Navi to secret after this was released.
And once again, it seems like they're being quiet. If there is no punishment for them, that's awful. Kind of sucks, since so much of player income comes from prize winnings, so it doesn't really matter how unpopular Secret is, they can still make a lot of money.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts.
Just so we're clear here, you think it's as likely that about ten people are lying about this to cause trouble as it is that two people are lying about it to cover their misdeeds?
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
Isn't Pie still on the team? - If he doesn't leave, can we consider that this is just ex-teammates raging because they ate their cake and now they want to have it again?
We can't, no. Pie is desperate to continue his esports career and Secret is literally his only ticket.
So Pie's experience is irrelevant and everyone else's experience is evidence. Weird justice system you have working in your head.
@Duck- I really like your posts.
So basically you're saying, Fly, n0tail, EE, Misery and w33's experiences are irrelevant, and only Pie's experience is relevant?
That's some next level mental gymnastics.
I'm not saying that their opinions are irrelevant and if you read my posts, I'm not even saying that there is anything conclusively disproving what they're saying. All I'm saying is I don't think that everything they are saying should be taken as fact.
IIRC the only thing they've all reported in common is the late payments, there is some new stuff with the latest iteration of the team in EE, Misery and w33... So throwing Fly and n0tail in there is pretty irrelevant given that the late payments is pretty well confirmed and I haven't been discussing that portion at all in my posts.
The question they're posing and they're posing it to the public rather than the justice system is:
"Are we entitled to this money? We feel that it's the case, if you do too, please shame secret and try to get them banned."
You disagree with the ethics of team secret even if they aren't guilty of most of what they're being accused... But you don't disagree with the ethics of what the raging exits are doing?
The question I was bringing up with Pie is, would any of these players complain about it and quit if they were currently on the team? There are currently 4 players on that team not including Puppey, if they continue to compete together, one can only assume that they are okay with how Secret works.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts.
Just so we're clear here, you think it's as likely that about ten people are lying about this to cause trouble as it is that two people are lying about it to cover their misdeeds?
The 10% thing was reported with the latest iteration of the team, to the best of my knowledge, you seem to be grouping together several different incidents and giving a blanket statement of "10 people reported this" rather than "3 people reported this and 10 people reported that". Despite EE releasing it all in one blog, the events are not necessarily tied and not necessarily remotely close to being for the same reasons.
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says:
"Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share."
His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances.
The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
this still doesnt make the 10% cut not being communicated at any point any better. im sure if they said straight up hey we take 10% for housing/food etc, i doubt anyone would have an issue with it.
i guess what it comes down to is that puppey's grand idea of a team "owned" by the players really isnt true and secret is no better than a scumbag team, who may or may not (probably more towards may) be stealing from their own players and not paying them, and the players who have left are just confirming that.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
It's their words against the teams when they have no contracts laying out everything like 10% cuts.
Just so we're clear here, you think it's as likely that about ten people are lying about this to cause trouble as it is that two people are lying about it to cover their misdeeds?
It doesn't matter if anyone is lying or not. For example, "we told him or her before joining the team." Player joined the team and the implied contract when into effect. Now if they signed a document like I suggested then everything would be laid out in a way to protect team secret and the player if a later dispute arises. You don't like it then you can walk away just like in the non written agreement. Like I said it's their words against team secrets words at this point. The 10% argument isn't going to amount to much. I mean you can terminate at any time, right? Besides envy and team secret could've agreed that pigs can fly and both agreed it is possible for all we know?
On October 14 2016 09:33 wims80 wrote: Malevolent or not, it's still embezzlement
Alleged embezzlement.
No one actually knows what the verbal agreements were made, if any of them were forgotten or inadvertently dismissed.
Thing with oral contracts is that it is so hard to prove. It's always your word vs mine. Judges listen to arguments, evaluate and opine what they believe to be the 'facts' of the case, which will then form the basis for their decisions. Because these 'facts' are simply the judge's interpretation of how the events played out, they are not necessarily true contrary to the meaning of the word.
It's always going to be an alleged embezzlement unless secret admits to it.
oral promise is not oral contract. even a false oral promise can have different intention: pervasive or good will. most of EE's "facts" are mixed with emotion, the only solid evidence is delayed payment. seem like he is taking the management role of NP, which would be too much for a immature person to handle.
On October 14 2016 11:28 HolyPepsi wrote: oral promise is not oral contract. even a false oral promise can have different intention: pervasive or good will. most of EE's "facts" are mixed with emotion, the only solid evidence is delayed payment. seem like he is taking the management role of NP, which would be too much for a immature person to handle.
I think by your standards, 90% of western esports organizations in Dota and SC2 have immature management. I think NP will be fine.
No, actually, it's totally irrelevant what they've been doing with the money. You can't act exactly the opposite of how you claim you would and steal from your employees and say "Yeah but I bought them lunch." That's not an argument. Especially not when it's totally unclear where the money has actually gone. If Secret had stated straight up that there was going to be a 10% cut then that's fine. The issue is they didn't. And the issue is linked in with their overall poor behaviour with regard to money.
And I don't get why people are bringing up the legal issue. Who the fuck cares? Nobody is going to court over this, clearly. So the issue is whether Puppey and Kemal did something wrong. And yes, telling your teammates there's going to be no cut, and then secretly taking a cut - along with the other issues - that's wrong. This isn't some difficult borderline case here.
Who cares if X, Y or Z would stand up in a court of law? The standard of evidence required to produce a guilty verdict is extremely high (as it should be), but where there's enough smoke (several players corroborating stories of massive shadiness) I'm going to form an opinion that Secret and probably Puppey are likely stealing from their players. If Secret fanboys want to tie themselves in knots to explain some improbable scenario where it's all a big misunderstanding (or all the players are lying) then that's their business.
Whether Kemal or Puppey had any bad intentions idk (at least they are incredibly negligent and incompetent), but the way the organization is set up is completely messed up imo. Of course the responsibility is on EE, Misery & co to make sure they have an actual contract that has the terms as they expect them to be. But the big PandaTV money cut (which is stated to pay for the house, employee salaries, salaries of players in other divisions, etc.) and the 10% cut (what is this paying then?) makes it so that Secret takes money generated by the dota players and gives it to other divisions and possibly the owners. There's nothing "illegal" about this if it doesn't go against agreements but it's incredible to me how Secret would be set up like this given the reasoning for making Secret in the first place. To me the idea clearly was to set up a team that allows players to benefit. The organization serves to help the players play and get them endorsements, and if they succeed in getting sponsorships everyone gets paid more. The organization isn't there to stash the cash so one owner can get rich.
In this case given that Kemal came along and Secret started recruiting teams for different games, I always just assumed that Kemal put down a hefty initial investment and is paying all these teams salaries either because he just likes it and has the cash to throw around or he thinks he can make the money back in the future by building Secret into something. But it doesn't seem his money is actually paying for almost anything, and instead the team is using the income generated by the dota team to pay for everything. How someone thought this is a reasonable solution is beyond me, even if there aren't contracts set up. Especially considering that before the PandaTV deal even the dota players didn't have any sort of salary.
Concerning NP if EE can get a deal with a Chinese streaming platform for even remotely similar money as Secret had, there's little else he has to do to make the team run smoothly. All players can get a reasonable salary from that and you can pay for the help you have, all the possible prize money can go straight to the players and you don't have to stress about running after sponsors. If they get more sponsors or hire someone in the team to take charge of that side of things then great, but that one deal alone can make everything really easy.
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
You are repeating what Envy wrote, actually. He said to Puppey that he would have been ok with Kemal/Ppy paying for expenses with the 10%. Yet, it was not communicated that they did it this way. Either they payed it themselves - which would be fine - or they used 10 uncommunicated percent for what they claimed to have payed themselves - which is not fine at all. Envy felt cheated since it is possible that this way he payed all the "extras" with his own money without even knowing. If ppy or Kemal used their own money, the extra expenses wouldn't be an issue. As discussed before, the main problem is, that they didn't communicate what the money would be used for in any way. A propper way to deal with it would have been to give everyone notice in a standard form of income/expense-excel-sheets (here in Germany you do that for taxes of a company for example ... its standard) of what money has been earned and how it was used in detail. Kemal whith his alleged business expertise that he likes to cite a lot should have handled it more professionally in particular! (Or is this expertise maybe the problem, since businesses often like to maximise their income at the cost of their employees?) This way, everyone would have known. It would have been the open and player friendly environment, Puppey was pretending to foster in creating TeamSecret. It is not really open, if you have to force people to tell you. They should do it by themselves, regularly, and not try to find loopholes or covering them. Otherwise it's really not the organisation that Puppey was advocating. The late payments are of course another bad thing, but I think everything else deserves attention and transparency as well.
Does Kemal actually own and run any businesses? Have he ever done that? It seems to me that he's just the "playboy" son of a billionaire ... I can't find anything on the internet that describes his businesses other than Secret ... not that I've spent a lot of time looking, but everything I've come over has been related to Team Secret
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself (this comment, for instance).
Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already.
Kemal could use the money the team wins to eat lobster and drink whiskey 3 times a day for the past 2 years? He could use the money to buy houses, boats, or jewelry for his wife? The list goes on. It's clear he spent money for that team house. It's clear he sent them all over the planet, bought dinners and they had a lavish lifestyle. They paid a porn star. Probably paid for a bunch more shit EE didn't mention or forgot about.
Well..
This is his fathers... Boat? (In Turkey we called it "floatinghouse" I don't know if i can use the same term in English) Sadikoglu's are always has been controversial figures in Turkey. His father kidnapped at Iraq. They payed 1 million for ransom money. Also his father is reaaally good at finding loopholes in government. That "floatinghouse" anchored Turkey's one of the most beautiful cove for years. Even local protests didn't stop them.
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote: What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself (this comment, for instance).
Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already.
Kemal could use the money the team wins to eat lobster and drink whiskey 3 times a day for the past 2 years? He could use the money to buy houses, boats, or jewelry for his wife? The list goes on. It's clear he spent money for that team house. It's clear he sent them all over the planet, bought dinners and they had a lavish lifestyle. They paid a porn star. Probably paid for a bunch more shit EE didn't mention or forgot about.
Well..
This is his fathers... Boat? (In Turkey we called it "floatinghouse" I don't know if i can use the same term in English) Sadikoglu's are always has been controversial figures in Turkey. His father kidnapped at Iraq. They payed 1 million for ransom money. Also his father is reaaally good at finding loopholes in government. That "floatinghouse" anchored Turkey's one of the most beautiful cove for years. Even local protests didn't stop them.
English equivalent is probably Yacht, which has the same kind of implications.
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says:
"Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share."
His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances.
The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
Your sense of logic is so screwed up. It's ok to steal the 10% without telling them because they used a portion of it on food? How is what they used it on even relevant?
On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote: Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty.
Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players.
Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things.
It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says:
"Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share."
His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances.
The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
Are you for real? Taking 10 percent of the player's income without letting them know is fine with you? And not to mention not even half of the money stolen was probably used for food, hotel room and "management" expenses. How do you know for sure that the stolen money are all used for "the team" and not for Kemal? Cuz for all we know the remaining money could also be used to pay for the "porn stars" and the CSGO girls. Or are you also implying that paying pornstars also serve to get "certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events"?
Well, it should be easy for Secret to prove anything as long as they have proof of what was spent and on what. If they don't have that then I am more inclined to believe almost everything EE says. Defending a shady org with 0 proofs on their side (which they should have if they are intending to be a real organization) will prove quite hard.
Yes, and i'd say, it's disgusting nothing was said... not even "all bullshits", i can't even understand how 0 punishments were given to the team, so scamming is legit in the Dota world?
On October 16 2016 03:48 Zea! wrote: Yes, and i'd say, it's disgusting nothing was said... not even "all bullshits", i can't even understand how 0 punishments were given to the team, so scamming is legit in the Dota world?
There is still time, the team is not that important right now.
I am still on the minority side, even I claim I am not puppey fangay people would not believe me I am a TS fan for the EE W33 Misery puppey pld lineup. I like both EE and puppey as a player also as a person, i start to follow EE since he post his decision for going professional in teamliquid after TI2. I hope this post can let some people think something new.
- I will not say much pro-EE in this post, since everyone is already doing so, it does not mean I am a EE hater - i respect the way he pull stuff out for the sake he think is the right thing to do (even though i disagree on the way he handling issues), and always have the intention for good will. The main purpose of this post is trying to find some neutral points that is in favor of puppey (since everyone is bashing him, so i'll only take the other side), please, neutral discussion, not emotional.
- try not mix facts with solid evidence with emotion : this is the way what most people think : EE has solid evidence proving TS is bad at making payments, making cuts. - Everything EE say after about puppey is then true. - No.
- The facts with Solid evidence: Late payments, previous money scandal for not paying fly & notail, words back up by misery etc. These are enough to prove TS is bad or fail at this most critical part of management. Puppey has no excuse but to take at least partial responsibility for it. To me this is the only thing that is solid as rock that I am not even interested in hearing puppey or TS's defense.
- Dota club a business: A club like TS is a business, not a charity or Not-for-profit-organization - it is a business with faith at best. It is crucial to understand the scope, vision, benefits and responsibility for owner, players, investor. I worked closedly with a Chinese organization in year 2000, trying to bring up the E-sports professional scene in China, like Korea - it failed in the end but made a nice precedence for the later professionalism in China - which helped the Esports scene worldwide. We are living in a golden age for Esports, which was not possible for old CS players. Esports club should have their own business model in order to survive, for example: iG survived solely on Wangsicong's investment - has no financial return (does build up reputation for him), that is not a business model for most clubs, it should be financially sustainable. Here is a typical Esports business model people use:
Stakeholders: usually include a seed money investor, famous player/ manager etc. They take responsibility for club's survival and growth, also takes share of profit. The stakes usually fully reached through a process called vesting - typically around 5 years, for example, a CEO worked in a Esportsclub for 5 years and promised stakes of 10%, he is getting 2% every year, and after 5 year even he does not work for the club anymore, he still owns 10% of that club. This is fair & professional. A contracted player has no business of profit share, unless it is mutally agreed (usually for certain project). The largest stake holder also has the right to make calls or reject every other's opinion.
in this case: we have no solid evidence stating the stake holders of TS, people are guessing Kemal & Puppey are the stake holder - which is very likely, we do not yet to know how much each person owns, also if Matt is a stake holder. What we know for sure is contracted player does not own any shares of the club: Contracted Players: With kuro (or even s4) maybe as a exception (which funding memebers of an organization is often owns a share, but we don't know), everyone else is a contracted player. This is what this typically means (again things are different per organization)
Player benefit: salary, tournament winning cut (which became tremendous amount, only thank to Valve) player responsibility: play under the organization, trainning, or other promotional activity that has been agreed in contract
has nothing to do with: the profit of organization, share of profit
This is the part people should be clear that puppey is both a player (for sure) and a stake holder (most likely)
Owner responsibility: Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Making players on same page as the team: Typically a investment like this, if it made directly to TS, it is TS's money. It has nothing to do with EE, fair and square, he should not even think about getting a cent - salary is his sole benefit besides tournament winnings. What makes this tricky is: the value TS trying to provide is the huge follower pool, but the followers are more likely follower to the players (if they change team tag, community will follow the players not the tags). And hence the part of deal is: Players has to stream certain monthly hours to make the contract valid
Do you see where the problem is? There are two problems: 1. Means players have to stream for free to meet the hours.
2. This happened after players came to the team.
This means that the organization is reliant on player's extra contribution to make the deal possible. All this is FINE if the organization is mature enough, which make necessary streaming as a part of player responsibility. But i doubt this is the case for TS & EE. Deal is simply too good for TS to pass, and no one want work extra for free (consider EE can make considerable amount of income by streaming on twitch). It is very likely that the contract between EE and TS is poorly written (or is there even a contract), things like this make shit happen. A fair way would be an open discussion between players and team, make the extra scope of service for players fair (for example, taking a small share of panda TV's investment).
On the other hand, kudos for Panda.TV for trying to sign EE with a very generous offer. I think they are trying to go global and compete with twitch. I doubt EE (and i do not blame him) understood all this. He simply rejected on a good will. Fine.
In the end, puppey did not get his job (stream hours) done because hes lazy, EE is not happy, but still did his part for free, deal is dead, no money from panda TV. It is a disaster, i would be coughing blood if I tried so hard to settle a deal but end up like this.
To summarize the pandaTV incidence: a result of poor management from TS, but not a shady organization with full or conspiracy. EE did his part as a player, he should not asking for share that was invested for TS , he rejected a deal that pandaTV offered to him. The result is likely a consequence of puppey's lazyness (not shady), unfortunate for everyone.
Not trying to make excuse for TS, but seem like they are still in the start up stage - having started a firm for my own I unstand how difficult it is. There is no way EE can understand all this ( i dont think he can be fractionally sucessful if he is trying to take the management role of NP based on his naiveness). From the conversation EE posted, there are a lot of things going for TS - but most of them are uncertain. A mature person would not take such conversation as grant, EE let me make few examples:
Reach out a sponsor, getting responses, settle a deal takes a tremendous amount of time, energy, business instinct and courage. Most of them takes a very long time and none of them is granted. From his picture I would say Kemal is doing the right thing, EE is too far apart from the business world and trying to believe what he wants to believe (TS already have these sponsors), but this is really not what I read from the picture, what I read is: there are lots sponsors interested. In the end they settled a deal with pandaTV, which I would already call a great success. - once again do not mix up from facts to facts, I think still TS is a poorly managed team. But just talking from this dialogue: there is nothing wrong about it. I don't think kemal lied about it - getting a sponsor interested is the first step, it has a long journey for actually settling a deal. I think EE will learn something about this, looks like he is trying to step up the management role in NP.
This started before EE join TS i think.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
The 10% cut
If there is anything shaddy thing potentially going on, this is it. Let's go back to the first few paragraphs: Valve has made the dota2 sports community living in an golden age, which people could not imagine just few year ago: 30 million of tournaments winning pool just by valve, a sucessful business model to keep dota2 going, mutal beneficial cmmunity artist invovlement etc... It also triggers the internal greed of human.
Go back to the business model of running a club, tournament winning is such a weird thing. When there wasn't much tournament money around, salary was player's major income, and players wouldn't be mind much about the cut specially its 10% (2% less for each player). Things are very different now, you are talking about 13 million ti6 championship prize. This brings up more questions: how important is a dota club? Is a dota club's management & enviroment crucial to players, that they would not be winning without the organization?
My my point is: you see the moral can go either ways. The right way to quantify this is: the agreement. Either a cut or not, you sign the contract or fk it.
WE know there is a contract. EE, can you review the contract??? 100 consipracy can be made for EE not disclosing the contract, something could be written as "organization to withhold the right to making tournament cuts", or nothing is written (a stupid contract).
EE's argument is that the 10% cut is never brought up. Puppey said he trying to talk it down but this is the lowest number Kemal can get.
To me, none of these argument matters unless we see the contract. Seneario 1. Its stated in the contract. that organization can take cut. then fk ee Senario 2: contracts states TS will not take any cuts: then fk kemal, and a little bit of puppey (he tried but not sucessful, fk him becasue hes a stalk holder hence the beneficier) Senario 3: its a fked up contract, no where is mentioned about tournament cut. Then it gets really tricky, because 10% is not a lot, but enough to piss people off. We don't know what is the management strcture, what is t he deal on how tournament split: we can bring up more moral questions like: Should coach, manager get a share of the tournament. Is there a management overhead for each touranemnt that goes into 10% cut? We need solid evidence
My conclusion on the 10% cut: 1. for now we can only tell the 10% cut is made 2. no evidence supporting either senario i mentioned 3. puppey seem not agree with the cut and trying to talk it down with kemal and even his lawyer, should we give a prompt to puppey at least for the effort?
Puppey as shady person
evidence: none. He took partial responsibility for delayed payments as a manager and a stakeholder (suspect).
words against puppey: EE's blog
Neutral: Misery - he think puppey knows about delayed payment and cut but did not do anything about it. Althought misery said nothing about puppey as a shady person
w33 twitted:
the thing between me and puppey wasn't half as bad as you guys make it seem, for good or for worse it helped me and made me a better person. At least it shows respect between the two.
Words backing up puppey:
dendi's stream
"Puppey never said anything like this to us when he was in Navi, he was a defender, not a fighter". -Dendi stream
LighTofHeaveN said on stream that when he first met Puppey (back in DoTA 1), Puppey was a massive rager, but when they joined Na'Vi together, Puppey behaved perfectly and never said anything toxic to any of his teammates.
past comments from his ex teammates, i think theres more good thing about him, someppl may say hes a dick. but being a dick is still different than being a shady person. and people usually dont change.
They took 10 % without saying anything to the players. This was stated by EE,W33 and pld. They did not hand out payments for an extremly long time. See kuro, fly, notail and now misery, W33 and EE.
Both are facts backed up by a multitude of players.
The question is now, where exactly did that money go and what they did with all that money that was not paid out in time.
Some of it was for personal, houseing, food, which was communicated to be provided by kemal.
But Secret made nearly 2,5 mio in earnings, which means they kept ~ 250 k. Thats a lot of money for food and rent for a house that is only used for a few moths per year. So the rest was used for something else. Most likely they invesed it into the brand so they could pay their other teams. As kemal + ppy are the owners, they invested the money into themselfs. Or maybe they just kept it.
All the people that defend ppy say that he is a nice guy and not as bad as people think. But noone said that what he has done isn't shady. So you did just twist their words.
On October 17 2016 04:57 TriCkster135 wrote: Your opinion seems quite biased.
They took 10 % without saying anything to the players. This was stated by EE,W33 and pld. They did not hand out payments for an extremly long time. See kuro, fly, notail and now misery, W33 and EE.
Both are facts backed up by a multitude of players.
The question is now, where exactly did that money go and what they did with all that money that was not paid out in time.
Some of it was for personal, houseing, food, which was communicated to be provided by kemal.
But Secret made nearly 2,5 mio in earnings, which means they kept ~ 250 k. Thats a lot of money for food and rent for a house that is only used for a few moths per year. So the rest was used for something else. Most likely they invesed it into the brand so they could pay their other teams. As kemal + ppy are the owners, they invested the money into themselfs. Or maybe they just kept it.
All the people that defend ppy say that he is a nice guy and not as bad as people think. But noone said that what he has done isn't shady. So you did just twist their words.
they have also not said he is a shady person. all i am saying theres not enough evidence to support EE's conclusion. and how is my opinion biased by using all the evidence EE brought up.
EE also have a record of saying different things about every of his former teammates (starts with good then bad) Here are some of the words EE said about puppey earlier. I throw these in just for fun. But remember: these people are still the same people.
How was your first lan tournament in which you are not the captain? How is Puppey calling the shots? Is it hard for you listen to another captain? Especially when you know he was doing the wrong call... In terms of preparation I did my utmost like I've always done for picks. In terms of in game shot calling, I've stepped down a lot which is nice. PPY will captain us under pressure situations which is something that I always felt like was up to me in all previous teams. Honestly though the atmosphere on this team is just more calm and there is less calls/chatter in general and people just play which is how it should be.
Do you feel more liberated by not having to make most of the calls, as Puppey takes on the captain role? I feel weird with the communication right now. Don't think its a good or bad thing for now. I do feel very happy that I don't need to control my teammates when they aren't trying to actively win the game anymore. I still make a lot of calls but I don't make many anti calls anymore which is a huge plus. I made MANY anti calls on my old team where I would have to stop my teammates from doing things that make you lose positions on the map.
Did arteezy's opinion of puppey have anything to do with you deciding to join secret? Yes I trust his opinion when he praises someone
As Puppey already won a TI and you are on his team, aren't you helping become the greatest and not yourself? X + 1 (puppey) > X(you) Puppey will become the best player in the world, I'll just catch up after. I don't count TI1 at all but regardless hell still be the best
Earlier you said s4 is one of the top 4 best players you've ever played with. Who's other three? Pie fata n mb ppy now
most overrated player in pro scene? Fata ATM mb late this won't be true
Will you still play with FATA? He became a really shit player n teammate
ou have played with Bone7 for such a long time. What is his strongest quality as a player? Item builds, willingness to practice n learn
I think you not take bone7 in your next team? He is fuking retard
What do you think of notail as a teammate/player? He is one of the worst teammates I've ever had that's all I'll say
Do you think notail it is the shining rainbow to the darkness of Kuro? Thiago Nast Kuro is definitely darkness but notail is a rainbow that easily gets pulled into darkness
What do you think about pieliedie right now? I know you kicked him and all, but has your opinion about him evolved, either positively or negatively? He hasn't change
Why do you bully Kuroky on Twitter? Honestly there's a lot of people I really want to flame.
unfollowed s4 because he declined your offer?? Y
Are you gonna team up with Aui again and forming a new team? No
ee claimed 4 premier championship titles in his career, 3 is under puppey's captainship. yet he has only bad things to say about him
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote: if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote: if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped.
And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy.
And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way.
EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up.
On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility: Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal.
Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way.
EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up.
Owner responsibility: Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal.
Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all .
The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence.
Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed.
On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote: if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped.
And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy.
And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest. There are genearlly several senecarios: 1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way.
2. Preparing a long response
3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest.
Wasn't it pretty clearly established that EE or any other player in Secret had no formal contract signed. There's nothing to see.
What possible breach of contract are you even talking about that Secret should sue EE for?
Concerning how Secret should handle it, I don't know what you can really do. It's imo pretty much the same as it was in the Evany case, the proof is there that the organization is not handled professionally (no formal contracts for the players, incredibly late and missing payments, etc.). You can argue against some of EE's claims, but there is really nothing you can come up with that excuses the late and missing payments, not telling the players that 10% of their prize money is being taken, etc. They should just focus on making sure they do things properly from here on out, and though I don't like everything about EE's blog I suspect it makes the current Secret players demand actual contracts and more transparency beforehand if they didn't have it already. And if Secret doesn't improve, we'll hear about this again next spring when the players again aren't getting their money.
On October 18 2016 06:01 Talin wrote: Verbal contracts are still valid contracts in most countries in the world, and admissible in court.
My bad, my first two sentences weren't meant to be so closely connected.
HolyPepsi was talking about wanting to see EE's contract, but there is no contract to see. The breach of contract talk was just to him talking about the possibility of Secret filing a lawsuit against EE. What in this presumed contract did he breach?
On October 18 2016 05:50 spudde123 wrote: Wasn't it pretty clearly established that EE or any other player in Secret had no formal contract signed. There's nothing to see.
What possible breach of contract are you even talking about that Secret should sue EE for?
Concerning how Secret should handle it, I don't know what you can really do. It's imo pretty much the same as it was in the Evany case, the proof is there that the organization is not handled professionally (no formal contracts for the players, incredibly late and missing payments, etc.). You can argue against some of EE's claims, but there is really nothing you can come up with that excuses the late and missing payments, not telling the players that 10% of their prize money is being taken, etc. They should just focus on making sure they do things properly from here on out, and though I don't like everything about EE's blog I suspect it makes the current Secret players demand actual contracts and more transparency beforehand if they didn't have it already. And if Secret doesn't improve, we'll hear about this again next spring when the players again aren't getting their money.
"but none of this is under contract" this may suggest they may actually have a contract... if there is no contract, the contractors is in a vulnerable position, even they dont get any payment because there was no written terms agreed...
On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote: if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped.
And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy.
And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest. There are genearlly several senecarios: 1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way.
2. Preparing a long response
3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest.
Yaphets didn't screw anyone else over or create a toxic team environment like Puppey and TS management did, no idea why you put him in the same league when all he did was disappoint fans over and over again for his lack of trying. Sounds like your other crisis management proposals involve punishing envy and not about actually addressing his allegations and clearing it up with any fans TS have left.
On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote: if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped.
And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy.
And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest. There are genearlly several senecarios: 1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way.
2. Preparing a long response
3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest.
Yaphets didn't screw anyone else over or create a toxic team environment like Puppey and TS management did, no idea why you put him in the same league when all he did was disappoint fans over and over again for his lack of trying. Sounds like your other crisis management proposals involve punishing envy and not about actually addressing his allegations and clearing it up with any fans TS have left.
It is easy to call out some and write an essay about someone's problem . To me it is an unmotived time for puppey after winning shanghai major, between April-July 2016.
A toxic team environment puppey created, and his team still won -1st The Summit 3, -1st Red Bull Battle Grounds: Dota 2 -1st MarsTV Dota 2 League 2015 Spring -1st ESL One Frankfurt 2015 -1st MLG World Finals -1st Nanyang Dota 2 Championships -2nd place The Frankfurt Major 2015 -1st he Shanghai Major 2016
is not possible. i am very certain that puppey can digust a team's toxicness more, while EE is argubly the most tryhard & motivated person in dota scene, he has not show good sign of leadership, nor help his team to get out a toxic situation.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way.
EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up.
On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility: Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal.
Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all .
The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence.
Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed.
I'm saying the first part is not before joining TS but after quitting TS. 15k is the goal for TS.NA offered by Kemal, not TS with Puppey. At this point, it was before EE was getting ready for his NP stack and before he started asking for clarification on how the money was handled. You have to understand that they are two different 15k salary. You'll need to read back on the blog and understand the timeline.
On the second part, sure EE made the mistake of rejecting the deal, but the main point is that if he didn't reject the deal unless PandaTV made a deal with the whole TS, there won't be any deal with PandaTV to begin with. They wouldn't even talk to Kemal or the organisation. So I don't think you should give that much credit that to Kemal as if he was the one who went looking for the PandaTV deal.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way.
EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up.
On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility: Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal.
Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all .
The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence.
Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed.
I'm saying the first part is not before joining TS but after quitting TS. 15k is the goal for TS.NA offered by Kemal, not TS with Puppey. At this point, it was before EE was getting ready for his NP stack and before he started asking for clarification on how the money was handled. You have to understand that they are two different 15k salary. You'll need to read back on the blog and understand the timeline.
On the second part, sure EE made the mistake of rejecting the deal, but the main point is that if he didn't reject the deal unless PandaTV made a deal with the whole TS, there won't be any deal with PandaTV to begin with. They wouldn't even talk to Kemal or the organisation. So I don't think you should give that much credit that to Kemal as if he was the one who went looking for the PandaTV deal.
Your point is valid if team NP can get a similar deal like this in the next couple of months, where EE sound completely capable of. So 15k does not have much against puppey then.
its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
On October 19 2016 09:01 HolyPepsi wrote: its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
it's very likely that this drama won't die down any time soon if what EE says is true.
that being said, we'll have a piece on this out tomorrow
On October 19 2016 09:01 HolyPepsi wrote: its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
Good answer..? Puppey's answer is fine for the personal side of things but that is hardly relevant anyway. What needed to be addressed is Secret taking prize money cuts without the players knowing, their payments being terribly delayed and them still owing money to some people. You can't brush this aside with an everyone makes mistakes line. They made a statement addressing none of the serious accusations and not convincing the public that they will make sure their outstanding debts will be payed.
Also funnily enough they thank their sponsors, specifically EGB, for their "timely payments" while Kemal said to EE that none of the sponsors other than Panda pay any money.
But I think you are right that people will somewhat forget if players don't talk about it in the future and Secret quietly improves how they run the team. However, the way Secret has handled their business this far doesn't exactly make me convinced that they are capable of running the organisation properly. I thought that the previous drama 8 months ago or whatever would have prompted Secret to make sure it doesn't happen again, but it apparently did nothing to help. If they don't fix their stuff they will have issues finding sponsors (not that they had much success this far) and get top players to play in the organisation. Getting players to come there may even be a problem now given that they went for 3 SEA players, which I doubt was the first thing on Puppey's mind post TI.
I think this whole thing is just blown up by stupid people circle jerking too much. I think some people even w33 defended TS because he think EE just blew the few bad parts out of proportion too much.
Let us not forget the fabled Monster drink that EE poured and his outrage online. It just proves everyone has super bad sides and I am willing to bet everyone has lashed out at something before. Not attacking EE personally but I do feel stupid people just blew the whole thing out of proportions.
On October 19 2016 21:16 G3CKO wrote: I think this whole thing is just blown up by stupid people circle jerking too much. I think some people even w33 defended TS because he think EE just blew the few bad parts out of proportion too much.
Let us not forget the fabled Monster drink that EE poured and his outrage online. It just proves everyone has super bad sides and I am willing to bet everyone has lashed out at something before. Not attacking EE personally but I do feel stupid people just blew the whole thing out of proportions.
I don't believe w33 defended TS in any way, but was responding to people making all sorts of Puppey memes about his behavior towards w33. As I've said before I don't think the personal side of the blog should have really been there and indeed you can pick out all sorts of stupid things EE has done himself. However, the main issue with Puppey here is not that he is some sort of an unpleasant person but that he presumably is part of Secret's ownership and all the things Secret is accused of are partly on him too.
Getting their winnings cut by 10%, not getting salaries etc are things EE can only blame himself for. Its his own mistake that he played for a team without a contract. When push comes to shove, no verbal agreements and trust based relationships (as Envy puts it) matter, all that matters is a written legal contract.
It might seem as if Im defending Secret, Im not. In fact imo if Secret was a serious company they themselves would insist on having contracts. Having a multi millionaire at the helm of the team who presumably is a very successful businessman who managed to secure only 1 paying sponsor for a year time speaks volumes about him. Either his really bad at doing business or is shady as fuck, or maybe both.
From my perspective, Secret and everyone involved in running the company, including Puppy, as well as all the players who have played for Secret are at fault.
I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
Ts will fail cause puppey is bad and doesnt practice even if the rest of their players are very good ppy will always bring them down as he did with all secret iterations with his sloppy plays and drafts
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
Ts will fail cause puppey is bad and doesnt practice even if the rest of their players are very good ppy will always bring them down as he did with all secret iterations with his sloppy plays and drafts
Puppey will always bring his team down as he did being the only player to reach 5 grand finals of million+ dollar tournaments and winning 2?
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
You're clearly a Team Secret attack dog. Keep barking, "pupp(e)y".
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
So EE called puppey out for 1 lying to the players 2 not paying the people he assosiated with or delaying paying them 3 being toxic and yet he is the bad guy?are you really saying that it doesnt matter what he did because he was the captain?also you are saying that sinse secret is a better team than np nothing that puppey did was wrong.i wonder :if he killed someone but won 2 tis after would you still find him inosent.....
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
Ts will fail cause puppey is bad and doesnt practice even if the rest of their players are very good ppy will always bring them down as he did with all secret iterations with his sloppy plays and drafts
Puppey will always bring his team down as he did being the only player to reach 5 grand finals of million+ dollar tournaments and winning 2?
No toxic player can achieve that.
Not true, you see toxic players win games all the time regardless of the sports (odell beckham?)
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
So EE called puppey out for 1 lying to the players 2 not paying the people he assosiated with or delaying paying them 3 being toxic and yet he is the bad guy?are you really saying that it doesnt matter what he did because he was the captain?also you are saying that sinse secret is a better team than np nothing that puppey did was wrong.i wonder :if he killed someone but won 2 tis after would you still find him inosent.....
Read my previous analysis of the facts. EE mix up facts with emotions. Puppey takes partial responsibility for some of the stuff EE claimed, not everything. EE (or we) does not even know the responsility of each individual of TS, whos in charge of the money, is matt a stake holder, did theeban gets a split of tournament cut etc. But simply blame puppey for everything he "felt" bad or unfairly treated. - naive and confused showing 0 appreciation given 0 credit of his ex captain where he has most success with, and point a gun on him - bad guy and a snitch. a murder takes serious legal consequence in every country, EE's claim has nothing to do with law (he did not even sign a contract, TS can take 100% tournament cut, and it could be all kemal ), but talking about his own moral standard, twisting facts and blame puppey for everything. People may have a fight in school, which breaks the school rule, a snitch would tell his teacher like EE did.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
You're clearly a Team Secret attack dog. Keep barking, "pupp(e)y".
Oh, and great job with the name-calling.
Calling me a "dog" in a fair discussion only proves my point: many people's inability see facts through twisted story. This is what EE did to puppey, and people like you would buy into it.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
So EE called puppey out for 1 lying to the players 2 not paying the people he assosiated with or delaying paying them 3 being toxic and yet he is the bad guy?are you really saying that it doesnt matter what he did because he was the captain?also you are saying that sinse secret is a better team than np nothing that puppey did was wrong.i wonder :if he killed someone but won 2 tis after would you still find him inosent.....
Read my previous analysis of the facts. EE mix up facts with emotions. Puppey takes partial responsibility for some of the stuff EE claimed, not everything. EE (or we) does not even know the responsility of each individual of TS, whos in charge of the money, is matt a stake holder, did theeban gets a split of tournament cut etc. But simply blame puppey for everything he "felt" bad or unfairly treated. - naive and confused showing 0 appreciation given 0 credit of his ex captain where he has most success with, and point a gun on him - bad guy and a snitch. a murder takes serious legal consequence in every country, EE's claim has nothing to do with law (he did not even sign a contract, TS can take 100% tournament cut, and it could be all kemal ), but talking about his own moral standard, twisting facts and blame puppey for everything. People may have a fight in school, which breaks the school rule, a snitch would tell his teacher like EE did.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
You're clearly a Team Secret attack dog. Keep barking, "pupp(e)y".
Oh, and great job with the name-calling.
Calling me a "dog" in a fair discussion only proves my point: many people's inability see facts through twisted story. This is what EE did to puppey, and people like you would buy into it.
I do agree with you that EE probably overeacted in a lot of those claims (w33 said so) but overeacting and lying are diferent things.Also puppey/TS refused to give their side of the story and even their small empty post had contradictions.I too was a huge puppey fan and i really wanted to support him but there are simply too many claims to ignore. also when i said murder i referenced the unethical side (as in doing it and not getting conviced like how secret didnt pay their players but there are not enough evidence to support that claim in a caurt of law)
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
So EE called puppey out for 1 lying to the players 2 not paying the people he assosiated with or delaying paying them 3 being toxic and yet he is the bad guy?are you really saying that it doesnt matter what he did because he was the captain?also you are saying that sinse secret is a better team than np nothing that puppey did was wrong.i wonder :if he killed someone but won 2 tis after would you still find him inosent.....
Read my previous analysis of the facts. EE mix up facts with emotions. Puppey takes partial responsibility for some of the stuff EE claimed, not everything. EE (or we) does not even know the responsility of each individual of TS, whos in charge of the money, is matt a stake holder, did theeban gets a split of tournament cut etc. But simply blame puppey for everything he "felt" bad or unfairly treated. - naive and confused showing 0 appreciation given 0 credit of his ex captain where he has most success with, and point a gun on him - bad guy and a snitch. a murder takes serious legal consequence in every country, EE's claim has nothing to do with law (he did not even sign a contract, TS can take 100% tournament cut, and it could be all kemal ), but talking about his own moral standard, twisting facts and blame puppey for everything. People may have a fight in school, which breaks the school rule, a snitch would tell his teacher like EE did.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: I have made my read of the facts clear - TS has problems, pretty bad but far away from worst (that would be not paying at all), player and organization take equal responsibility for not having a contract (TS can take 100% of tournament winning if they want without contract)
Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch. I would stay away from this kind of person. Don't you hate the people from your high school that snitches when you did something wrong? EE thought he is doing the right thing. If a person has any appreciation left in his humanity, he wouldn't point a gun at his ex-captain, which they fought together for the entire year (3/4 of EE's title is with puppey), it is even worse when he mix up team TS with puppey (which has problems but EE tired to blame him for much worse). Now a snitch ends up with a team of rejects, while TS is not as strong as the post ti-5 TS, still a tier 1 team and will bring good dota.
You're clearly a Team Secret attack dog. Keep barking, "pupp(e)y".
Oh, and great job with the name-calling.
Calling me a "dog" in a fair discussion only proves my point: many people's inability see facts through twisted story. This is what EE did to puppey, and people like you would buy into it.
he didnt need to know. thats the whole point of ee's post. the team was formed under the premise that puppey and kamal could be trusted to handle team matters on their own whilst the players focused on dota. ee actually did show interest in how operations were being dealt with but was turned away by both puppey and kamal and told to focus on dota. later on shit goes down and quite obviously some people on the management side of secret fucked up (probably knowingly). envy has every right to be pissed off about how shit went down at secret. puppey was the only player who supposedly knew how the team was being managed and he fucked his teammates over both financially and apparently as a team member too
the only thing envy has done wrong is enter into a team without a contract, but you cant fault him for that because its just not 'standard' within the scene. unless the team already has a big name and sponsor, the players are more likely to join/form teams with friends. the scene has not developed enough in this aspect (especially the western scene) for contracts to be standard for players.
Hi. Casual reminder that just because a written contract isn't signed or doesn't exist, doesn't mean there cannot be a contract. There's such things as oral contracts, and it happens in everyday life, such as you buying food from a vendor.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch.
Holy shit. Actual holy shit.
A person got treated wrongly and had no option to get their wrongs righted, so they went public about it. And you call them a snitch? This isn't your freaking school! This is real life, and real life wrongdoings, malversations etc. should be publicized and punished.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch.
Holy shit. Actual holy shit.
A person got treated wrongly and had no option to get their wrongs righted, so they went public about it. And you call them a snitch? This isn't your freaking school! This is real life, and real life wrongdoings, malversations etc. should be publicized and punished.
i wrote several pages of fact analysis, yet people reply to my only line of emotional respond LOL no wonder ppl buy into EE's twisted story.
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch.
Holy shit. Actual holy shit.
A person got treated wrongly and had no option to get their wrongs righted, so they went public about it. And you call them a snitch? This isn't your freaking school! This is real life, and real life wrongdoings, malversations etc. should be publicized and punished.
i wrote several pages of fact analysis, yet people reply to my only line of emotional respond LOL no wonder ppl buy into EE's twisted story.
You've written several pages of your opinion, then gave a more deliberate statement of it.
On October 21 2016 09:02 DucK- wrote: Hi. Casual reminder that just because a written contract isn't signed or doesn't exist, doesn't mean there cannot be a contract. There's such things as oral contracts, and it happens in everyday life, such as you buying food from a vendor.
it doesnt matter either way because this isnt going to court and even if it did oral contracts arent nearly as enforceable as written ones
On October 20 2016 04:15 HolyPepsi wrote: Now lets talk about emotions: EE is a snitch.
Holy shit. Actual holy shit.
A person got treated wrongly and had no option to get their wrongs righted, so they went public about it. And you call them a snitch? This isn't your freaking school! This is real life, and real life wrongdoings, malversations etc. should be publicized and punished.
i wrote several pages of fact analysis, yet people reply to my only line of emotional respond LOL no wonder ppl buy into EE's twisted story.
your fact analysis revolving around saying that because there was no contract, all the shady shit that went on was gucci. just because something is technically legal doesn't mean it's not scumbag behaviour.
EPT
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