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Personal attack = Ban.
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On October 14 2016 09:10 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 07:23 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Uh, we have three players on Secret (Misery, Envy, PLD) all on record saying they knew nothing about a 10% cut. It was publicly known that Secret was not going to take a cut as well. Why on Earth would all of them lie? PLD in particular is still on the fucking team - why would he want to smear Secret? Or has Envy been lying and photoshopping PLD's messages, and it's just that PLD can't be bothered making an easy defence of his teammate by saying "Nah, that's fake, Envy is lying, I never said that and I knew about the 10% cut"? In fact, he's lied when he's claimed nobody on Secret knew - the fact that we have photos of one saying they didn't, and another has come out publicly to say they didn't, and literally nobody has come out to defend Puppey and said Envy isn't speaking for them is... like... not evidence, or something. That's totally likely, right?
Nah, Puppey and Kemal have been stealing from Secret players. Any reasonable person knows this with pretty close to certainty. Let's assume for a second that you're right, Puppey and Kemal are stealing from the players. Who's been paying for the food, the house, the flights, the rooms and everything else that the players have been talking about? It's not theft, it's going into the team, certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events, maybe it actually won them more money than it lost them. It's hard to tell. You're making it as though it's black and white, but it isn't, I see a lot of messages where Envy claimed that he trusted Puppey to "be fair" and manage in his best interest which to two different people means different things. It's not clear exactly how excluded the players were and/or wanted to be on the management front and it's quite clear that Puppey has had the intention of building a dynasty and not just a team to win TI once. Whether or not this was properly communicated is very hard to say. Even in Misery's blog, he says: "Sure, if I felt that people in Secret cared about getting me paid or even just weren’t a pain in the ass to deal with on the matter, I would probably not mind giving the organisation 10%. But that is simply not the case. The amount of big words, promises about salary, sponsor deals, and the belief that we were playing for an organisation that was different from most, just makes me want my full share." His issue is not with the philosophy of building the organization or paying the non-player members, his issue is more the lack of competence in said organization which I can't agree more on. However, incompetence does not mean that the organization is malevolent in nature and it may indicate that if he was still on the team and pleased with the organization in general, he would be fine with continuing under the same circumstances. The biggest issue here really seems to be the money being paid out on time. And don't get me wrong, it's a big issue, but it's not grounds to accuse them of any more than that.
Are you for real? Taking 10 percent of the player's income without letting them know is fine with you? And not to mention not even half of the money stolen was probably used for food, hotel room and "management" expenses. How do you know for sure that the stolen money are all used for "the team" and not for Kemal? Cuz for all we know the remaining money could also be used to pay for the "porn stars" and the CSGO girls. Or are you also implying that paying pornstars also serve to get "certain advantages that may or may not have given them an edge at events"?
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I just lost all my respect for Puppey lol.
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Well, it should be easy for Secret to prove anything as long as they have proof of what was spent and on what. If they don't have that then I am more inclined to believe almost everything EE says. Defending a shady org with 0 proofs on their side (which they should have if they are intending to be a real organization) will prove quite hard.
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People really expect Secret to make a statement? LOL
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Yes, and i'd say, it's disgusting nothing was said... not even "all bullshits", i can't even understand how 0 punishments were given to the team, so scamming is legit in the Dota world?
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On October 16 2016 03:48 Zea! wrote:
Yes, and i'd say, it's disgusting nothing was said... not even "all bullshits", i can't even understand how 0 punishments were given to the team, so scamming is legit in the Dota world?
There is still time, the team is not that important right now.
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I am still on the minority side, even I claim I am not puppey fangay people would not believe me  I am a TS fan for the EE W33 Misery puppey pld lineup. I like both EE and puppey as a player also as a person, i start to follow EE since he post his decision for going professional in teamliquid after TI2. I hope this post can let some people think something new.
- I will not say much pro-EE in this post, since everyone is already doing so, it does not mean I am a EE hater - i respect the way he pull stuff out for the sake he think is the right thing to do (even though i disagree on the way he handling issues), and always have the intention for good will. The main purpose of this post is trying to find some neutral points that is in favor of puppey (since everyone is bashing him, so i'll only take the other side), please, neutral discussion, not emotional.
- try not mix facts with solid evidence with emotion : this is the way what most people think : EE has solid evidence proving TS is bad at making payments, making cuts. - Everything EE say after about puppey is then true. - No.
- The facts with Solid evidence:
Late payments, previous money scandal for not paying fly & notail, words back up by misery etc. These are enough to prove TS is bad or fail at this most critical part of management. Puppey has no excuse but to take at least partial responsibility for it. To me this is the only thing that is solid as rock that I am not even interested in hearing puppey or TS's defense.
- Dota club a business:
A club like TS is a business, not a charity or Not-for-profit-organization - it is a business with faith at best. It is crucial to understand the scope, vision, benefits and responsibility for owner, players, investor. I worked closedly with a Chinese organization in year 2000, trying to bring up the E-sports professional scene in China, like Korea - it failed in the end but made a nice precedence for the later professionalism in China - which helped the Esports scene worldwide. We are living in a golden age for Esports, which was not possible for old CS players. Esports club should have their own business model in order to survive, for example: iG survived solely on Wangsicong's investment - has no financial return (does build up reputation for him), that is not a business model for most clubs, it should be financially sustainable.
Here is a typical Esports business model people use:
Stakeholders: usually include a seed money investor, famous player/ manager etc. They take responsibility for club's survival and growth, also takes share of profit. The stakes usually fully reached through a process called vesting - typically around 5 years, for example, a CEO worked in a Esportsclub for 5 years and promised stakes of 10%, he is getting 2% every year, and after 5 year even he does not work for the club anymore, he still owns 10% of that club. This is fair & professional. A contracted player has no business of profit share, unless it is mutally agreed (usually for certain project). The largest stake holder also has the right to make calls or reject every other's opinion.
in this case: we have no solid evidence stating the stake holders of TS, people are guessing Kemal & Puppey are the stake holder - which is very likely, we do not yet to know how much each person owns, also if Matt is a stake holder. What we know for sure is contracted player does not own any shares of the club:
Contracted Players: With kuro (or even s4) maybe as a exception (which funding memebers of an organization is often owns a share, but we don't know), everyone else is a contracted player. This is what this typically means (again things are different per organization)
Player benefit: salary, tournament winning cut (which became tremendous amount, only thank to Valve)
player responsibility: play under the organization, trainning, or other promotional activity that has been agreed in contract
has nothing to do with: the profit of organization, share of profit
This is the part people should be clear that puppey is both a player (for sure) and a stake holder (most likely)
Owner responsibility:
Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Making players on same page as the team:
Typically a investment like this, if it made directly to TS, it is TS's money. It has nothing to do with EE, fair and square, he should not even think about getting a cent - salary is his sole benefit besides tournament winnings. What makes this tricky is: the value TS trying to provide is the huge follower pool, but the followers are more likely follower to the players (if they change team tag, community will follow the players not the tags). And hence the part of deal is:
Players has to stream certain monthly hours to make the contract valid
Do you see where the problem is? There are two problems:
1. Means players have to stream for free to meet the hours.
2. This happened after players came to the team.
This means that the organization is reliant on player's extra contribution to make the deal possible.
All this is FINE if the organization is mature enough, which make necessary streaming as a part of player responsibility. But i doubt this is the case for TS & EE. Deal is simply too good for TS to pass, and no one want work extra for free (consider EE can make considerable amount of income by streaming on twitch).
It is very likely that the contract between EE and TS is poorly written (or is there even a contract), things like this make shit happen. A fair way would be an open discussion between players and team, make the extra scope of service for players fair (for example, taking a small share of panda TV's investment).
On the other hand, kudos for Panda.TV for trying to sign EE with a very generous offer. I think they are trying to go global and compete with twitch. I doubt EE (and i do not blame him) understood all this. He simply rejected on a good will. Fine.
In the end, puppey did not get his job (stream hours) done because hes lazy, EE is not happy, but still did his part for free, deal is dead, no money from panda TV. It is a disaster, i would be coughing blood if I tried so hard to settle a deal but end up like this.
To summarize the pandaTV incidence: a result of poor management from TS, but not a shady organization with full or conspiracy. EE did his part as a player, he should not asking for share that was invested for TS , he rejected a deal that pandaTV offered to him. The result is likely a consequence of puppey's lazyness (not shady), unfortunate for everyone.
Not trying to make excuse for TS, but seem like they are still in the start up stage - having started a firm for my own I unstand how difficult it is. There is no way EE can understand all this ( i dont think he can be fractionally sucessful if he is trying to take the management role of NP based on his naiveness). From the conversation EE posted, there are a lot of things going for TS - but most of them are uncertain. A mature person would not take such conversation as grant, EE let me make few examples:
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/kemal/1.jpg)
Reach out a sponsor, getting responses, settle a deal takes a tremendous amount of time, energy, business instinct and courage. Most of them takes a very long time and none of them is granted. From his picture I would say Kemal is doing the right thing, EE is too far apart from the business world and trying to believe what he wants to believe (TS already have these sponsors), but this is really not what I read from the picture, what I read is: there are lots sponsors interested. In the end they settled a deal with pandaTV, which I would already call a great success. - once again do not mix up from facts to facts, I think still TS is a poorly managed team. But just talking from this dialogue: there is nothing wrong about it. I don't think kemal lied about it - getting a sponsor interested is the first step, it has a long journey for actually settling a deal. I think EE will learn something about this, looks like he is trying to step up the management role in NP.
This started before EE join TS i think.
The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
"i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you"
"6k from start"
"goal is 15k a month"
Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side)
So how much is EE getting?
7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal").
8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k.
Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract).
My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise.
And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
The 10% cut
If there is anything shaddy thing potentially going on, this is it.
Let's go back to the first few paragraphs: Valve has made the dota2 sports community living in an golden age, which people could not imagine just few year ago: 30 million of tournaments winning pool just by valve, a sucessful business model to keep dota2 going, mutal beneficial cmmunity artist invovlement etc... It also triggers the internal greed of human.
Go back to the business model of running a club, tournament winning is such a weird thing. When there wasn't much tournament money around, salary was player's major income, and players wouldn't be mind much about the cut specially its 10% (2% less for each player). Things are very different now, you are talking about 13 million ti6 championship prize. This brings up more questions: how important is a dota club? Is a dota club's management & enviroment crucial to players, that they would not be winning without the organization?
My my point is: you see the moral can go either ways. The right way to quantify this is: the agreement. Either a cut or not, you sign the contract or fk it.
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/3.jpg)
WE know there is a contract. EE, can you review the contract??? 100 consipracy can be made for EE not disclosing the contract, something could be written as "organization to withhold the right to making tournament cuts", or nothing is written (a stupid contract).
EE's argument is that the 10% cut is never brought up.
Puppey said he trying to talk it down but this is the lowest number Kemal can get.
To me, none of these argument matters unless we see the contract.
Seneario 1. Its stated in the contract. that organization can take cut. then fk ee
Senario 2: contracts states TS will not take any cuts: then fk kemal, and a little bit of puppey (he tried but not sucessful, fk him becasue hes a stalk holder hence the beneficier)
Senario 3: its a fked up contract, no where is mentioned about tournament cut. Then it gets really tricky, because 10% is not a lot, but enough to piss people off. We don't know what is the management strcture, what is t he deal on how tournament split:
we can bring up more moral questions like:
Should coach, manager get a share of the tournament. Is there a management overhead for each touranemnt that goes into 10% cut?
We need solid evidence
My conclusion on the 10% cut:
1. for now we can only tell the 10% cut is made
2. no evidence supporting either senario i mentioned
3. puppey seem not agree with the cut and trying to talk it down with kemal and even his lawyer, should we give a prompt to puppey at least for the effort?
Puppey as shady person
evidence: none. He took partial responsibility for delayed payments as a manager and a stakeholder (suspect).
words against puppey: EE's blog
Neutral: Misery - he think puppey knows about delayed payment and cut but did not do anything about it. Althought misery said nothing about puppey as a shady person
w33 twitted:
the thing between me and puppey wasn't half as bad as you guys make it seem, for good or for worse it helped me and made me a better person.
At least it shows respect between the two.
Words backing up puppey:
dendi's stream
"Puppey never said anything like this to us when he was in Navi, he was a defender, not a fighter". -Dendi stream
LighTofHeaveN said on stream that when he first met Puppey (back in DoTA 1), Puppey was a massive rager, but when they joined Na'Vi together, Puppey behaved perfectly and never said anything toxic to any of his teammates.
past comments from his ex teammates, i think theres more good thing about him, someppl may say hes a dick. but being a dick is still different than being a shady person. and people usually dont change.
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Your opinion seems quite biased.
They took 10 % without saying anything to the players. This was stated by EE,W33 and pld.
They did not hand out payments for an extremly long time. See kuro, fly, notail and now misery, W33 and EE.
Both are facts backed up by a multitude of players.
The question is now, where exactly did that money go and what they did with all that money that was not paid out in time.
Some of it was for personal, houseing, food, which was communicated to be provided by kemal.
But Secret made nearly 2,5 mio in earnings, which means they kept ~ 250 k. Thats a lot of money for food and rent for a house that is only used for a few moths per year.
So the rest was used for something else. Most likely they invesed it into the brand so they could pay their other teams. As kemal + ppy are the owners, they invested the money into themselfs. Or maybe they just kept it.
All the people that defend ppy say that he is a nice guy and not as bad as people think. But noone said that what he has done isn't shady. So you did just twist their words.
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On October 17 2016 04:57 TriCkster135 wrote:
Your opinion seems quite biased.
They took 10 % without saying anything to the players. This was stated by EE,W33 and pld.
They did not hand out payments for an extremly long time. See kuro, fly, notail and now misery, W33 and EE.
Both are facts backed up by a multitude of players.
The question is now, where exactly did that money go and what they did with all that money that was not paid out in time.
Some of it was for personal, houseing, food, which was communicated to be provided by kemal.
But Secret made nearly 2,5 mio in earnings, which means they kept ~ 250 k. Thats a lot of money for food and rent for a house that is only used for a few moths per year.
So the rest was used for something else. Most likely they invesed it into the brand so they could pay their other teams. As kemal + ppy are the owners, they invested the money into themselfs. Or maybe they just kept it.
All the people that defend ppy say that he is a nice guy and not as bad as people think. But noone said that what he has done isn't shady. So you did just twist their words.
they have also not said he is a shady person. all i am saying theres not enough evidence to support EE's conclusion.
and how is my opinion biased by using all the evidence EE brought up.
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EE also have a record of saying different things about every of his former teammates (starts with good then bad) Here are some of the words EE said about puppey earlier. I throw these in just for fun. But remember: these people are still the same people.
How was your first lan tournament in which you are not the captain? How is Puppey calling the shots? Is it hard for you listen to another captain? Especially when you know he was doing the wrong call...
In terms of preparation I did my utmost like I've always done for picks. In terms of in game shot calling, I've stepped down a lot which is nice. PPY will captain us under pressure situations which is something that I always felt like was up to me in all previous teams. Honestly though the atmosphere on this team is just more calm and there is less calls/chatter in general and people just play which is how it should be.
Do you feel more liberated by not having to make most of the calls, as Puppey takes on the captain role?
I feel weird with the communication right now. Don't think its a good or bad thing for now. I do feel very happy that I don't need to control my teammates when they aren't trying to actively win the game anymore. I still make a lot of calls but I don't make many anti calls anymore which is a huge plus. I made MANY anti calls on my old team where I would have to stop my teammates from doing things that make you lose positions on the map.
Did arteezy's opinion of puppey have anything to do with you deciding to join secret?
Yes I trust his opinion when he praises someone
As Puppey already won a TI and you are on his team, aren't you helping become the greatest and not yourself? X + 1 (puppey) > X(you)
Puppey will become the best player in the world, I'll just catch up after.
I don't count TI1 at all but regardless hell still be the best
Earlier you said s4 is one of the top 4 best players you've ever played with. Who's other three?
Pie fata n mb ppy now
most overrated player in pro scene?
Fata ATM mb late this won't be true
Will you still play with FATA?
He became a really shit player n teammate
ou have played with Bone7 for such a long time. What is his strongest quality as a player?
Item builds, willingness to practice n learn
I think you not take bone7 in your next team?
He is fuking retard
What do you think of notail as a teammate/player?
He is one of the worst teammates I've ever had that's all I'll say
Do you think notail it is the shining rainbow to the darkness of Kuro? Thiago Nast
Kuro is definitely darkness but notail is a rainbow that easily gets pulled into darkness
What do you think about pieliedie right now? I know you kicked him and all, but has your opinion about him evolved, either positively or negatively?
He hasn't change
Why do you bully Kuroky on Twitter?
Honestly there's a lot of people I really want to flame.
unfollowed s4 because he declined your offer??
Y
Are you gonna team up with Aui again and forming a new team?
No
ee claimed 4 premier championship titles in his career, 3 is under puppey's captainship. yet he has only bad things to say about him
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if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
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On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see?
No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
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On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote:
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal
10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously.
On October 17 2016 10:06 Spoonmeister wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him.
After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
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BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
that was awesome
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On October 17 2016 11:58 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote:
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal 10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously. Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 10:06 Spoonmeister wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him. After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic?
EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped.
And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy.
And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
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I'm glad that, in this incidence, silence will further ground the truth to these "allegations" (LUL).
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On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side) So how much is EE getting? 7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal"). 8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k. Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract). My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise. And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised.
Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way.
EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up.
On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility:
Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal.
Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
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On October 17 2016 16:46 TripleJJJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side) So how much is EE getting? 7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal"). 8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k. Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract). My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise. And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised. Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way. EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up. Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility:
Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal. Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given.
It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all .
The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence.
Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed.
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On October 17 2016 15:55 TriCkster135 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 11:58 HolyPepsi wrote:On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote:
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal 10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously. On October 17 2016 10:06 Spoonmeister wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him. After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic? EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped. And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy. And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend?
Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest.
There are genearlly several senecarios:
1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way.
2. Preparing a long response
3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/kemal/6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/23.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/2.jpg)
