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Personal attack = Ban.
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please don't double post and please spoiler giant-ass images for readability purposes
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Wasn't it pretty clearly established that EE or any other player in Secret had no formal contract signed. There's nothing to see.
What possible breach of contract are you even talking about that Secret should sue EE for?
Concerning how Secret should handle it, I don't know what you can really do. It's imo pretty much the same as it was in the Evany case, the proof is there that the organization is not handled professionally (no formal contracts for the players, incredibly late and missing payments, etc.). You can argue against some of EE's claims, but there is really nothing you can come up with that excuses the late and missing payments, not telling the players that 10% of their prize money is being taken, etc. They should just focus on making sure they do things properly from here on out, and though I don't like everything about EE's blog I suspect it makes the current Secret players demand actual contracts and more transparency beforehand if they didn't have it already. And if Secret doesn't improve, we'll hear about this again next spring when the players again aren't getting their money.
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Verbal contracts are still valid contracts in most countries in the world, and admissible in court.
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On October 18 2016 06:01 Talin wrote:
Verbal contracts are still valid contracts in most countries in the world, and admissible in court.
My bad, my first two sentences weren't meant to be so closely connected.
HolyPepsi was talking about wanting to see EE's contract, but there is no contract to see. The breach of contract talk was just to him talking about the possibility of Secret filing a lawsuit against EE. What in this presumed contract did he breach?
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On October 18 2016 05:50 spudde123 wrote:
Wasn't it pretty clearly established that EE or any other player in Secret had no formal contract signed. There's nothing to see.
What possible breach of contract are you even talking about that Secret should sue EE for?
Concerning how Secret should handle it, I don't know what you can really do. It's imo pretty much the same as it was in the Evany case, the proof is there that the organization is not handled professionally (no formal contracts for the players, incredibly late and missing payments, etc.). You can argue against some of EE's claims, but there is really nothing you can come up with that excuses the late and missing payments, not telling the players that 10% of their prize money is being taken, etc. They should just focus on making sure they do things properly from here on out, and though I don't like everything about EE's blog I suspect it makes the current Secret players demand actual contracts and more transparency beforehand if they didn't have it already. And if Secret doesn't improve, we'll hear about this again next spring when the players again aren't getting their money.
+ Show Spoiler +
"but none of this is under contract"
this may suggest they may actually have a contract... if there is no contract, the contractors is in a vulnerable position, even they dont get any payment because there was no written terms agreed...
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On October 18 2016 03:19 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 15:55 TriCkster135 wrote:On October 17 2016 11:58 HolyPepsi wrote:On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote:
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal 10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously. On October 17 2016 10:06 Spoonmeister wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him. After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic? EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped. And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy. And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend? Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest. There are genearlly several senecarios: 1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way. 2. Preparing a long response 3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest.
Yaphets didn't screw anyone else over or create a toxic team environment like Puppey and TS management did, no idea why you put him in the same league when all he did was disappoint fans over and over again for his lack of trying. Sounds like your other crisis management proposals involve punishing envy and not about actually addressing his allegations and clearing it up with any fans TS have left.
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On October 18 2016 10:30 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 03:19 HolyPepsi wrote:On October 17 2016 15:55 TriCkster135 wrote:On October 17 2016 11:58 HolyPepsi wrote:On October 17 2016 09:54 Exoteric wrote:
if the managers are complicit in having the team taking a 10% cut without communicating this to everyone beforehand, then that is representative of shady behaviour
puppey and kemal seemed to be well aware of this, why were the other team members of secret so surprised to see the cut in the summary?
all of this comes down to the evasiveness and lack of transparency from the top dogs puppey+kemal 10% cut by whos decision? Who has the right to make this call? There is a big difference between Kemal's call, lawyer's advise (contract may reserve the rights to kemal), or wether is puppey trying to get rid the cut but failed to do so. this is excatly where people get mixed up with facts and emotion. The same facts EE listed can be interpreted something like this: the shitty organization took a big cut that we did not even know that was stated in contract, it was puppey who talked down to Kemal to bring the cut down to 10%. This is the excat senario when a broke up lover make complain about each other - u will need to hear both side of the story to get an idea what is going on, but once you have heard enough story like this, u'll get an idea that not to take one sided story seriously. On October 17 2016 10:06 Spoonmeister wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? No EE said this is after he left TS and wanted to form his own team, but was still in talks with Kemal about still being managed by him. After all the shit he got from kemal and he still wants kemal to manage NP? where is the logic? EE did write the blog as soon as he was aware of the 10 %.At that point the talks with kemal to manage them were stopped. And even if ppy did negotiate and reduced the cut from 20 -> 10 %, he still didn't tell his team mates. His behavoir was per defintion shady. It seems like you confuse being shady with being criminal. All he did was shady, as there was zero transperancy. And if what it EE said isn't true, why didn't ppy release a statement showing what really happend? Damage has already been done. Now you talking about crsis management. TS should make the response for their best interest. There are genearlly several senecarios: 1. Silence is one way of doing it, maybe there are enough evidence for TS look bad. Most people will forget about drama and more focus in the game. Yaphets for example, is notorious for lots of his personal behaviour but he still has huge fan base expect he has 0 achievement in dota2. this TS is not as strong as the envy w33 TS (TS has been a favorite team until they kick w33 misery), but still look more promising than NP. Focus working on your own team and achieve something is a way. Think about the way Kuro handling rtz (which I took kuro's side as well), the majority of dota community is not very intelligent and weak, they simple took the winners side (kuro left rtz right stuff). silence maybe a better option to their judgement. beat NP in a LAN (i doubt if NP can make much lan event) is a good way. 2. Preparing a long response 3.Filing a lawsuit against Envy, if envy actually break the terms on his contract (we dont know but really like to see the contract), its a way to find justice for team's interest. Yaphets didn't screw anyone else over or create a toxic team environment like Puppey and TS management did, no idea why you put him in the same league when all he did was disappoint fans over and over again for his lack of trying. Sounds like your other crisis management proposals involve punishing envy and not about actually addressing his allegations and clearing it up with any fans TS have left.
It is easy to call out some and write an essay about someone's problem . To me it is an unmotived time for puppey after winning shanghai major, between April-July 2016.
A toxic team environment puppey created, and his team still won
-1st The Summit 3,
-1st Red Bull Battle Grounds: Dota 2
-1st MarsTV Dota 2 League 2015 Spring
-1st ESL One Frankfurt 2015
-1st MLG World Finals
-1st Nanyang Dota 2 Championships
-2nd place The Frankfurt Major 2015
-1st he Shanghai Major 2016
is not possible. i am very certain that puppey can digust a team's toxicness more, while EE is argubly the most tryhard & motivated person in dota scene, he has not show good sign of leadership, nor help his team to get out a toxic situation.
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On October 18 2016 03:11 HolyPepsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 16:46 TripleJJJ wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side) So how much is EE getting? 7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal"). 8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k. Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract). My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise. And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised. Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way. EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up. On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility:
Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal. Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given. It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all . The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence. Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed.
I'm saying the first part is not before joining TS but after quitting TS. 15k is the goal for TS.NA offered by Kemal, not TS with Puppey. At this point, it was before EE was getting ready for his NP stack and before he started asking for clarification on how the money was handled. You have to understand that they are two different 15k salary. You'll need to read back on the blog and understand the timeline.
On the second part, sure EE made the mistake of rejecting the deal, but the main point is that if he didn't reject the deal unless PandaTV made a deal with the whole TS, there won't be any deal with PandaTV to begin with. They wouldn't even talk to Kemal or the organisation. So I don't think you should give that much credit that to Kemal as if he was the one who went looking for the PandaTV deal.
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On October 18 2016 17:14 TripleJJJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 03:11 HolyPepsi wrote:On October 17 2016 16:46 TripleJJJ wrote:On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:This started before EE join TS i think. The controversial 15k salary. Once again, even my dad say this to me I would not take it real. Does EE skip the words he does not want to see? "i can't give you numbers until I start shopping for you" "6k from start" "goal is 15k a month" Yet EE only see the number of 15k? What I read is a initial offer of 6k (which seriously need to be confirmed in the written contract), and a good will to increase the number to 15k. I would not even call this lying or persuvasive. This talk is even before EE joins TS (I think EE is under cloud9 contract at this point?), and it is clarily stated the goal is to get 15k. If you read my previous statement - TS is a start up that relies on a lot things to happen in their way to make the 15k possible. How can EE only emphasis the word "15k", who is greedy here? A 6k intially offer is made. Without anyone disclosing the contract (which is the only thing that legally effective, or back up anyones word). At this point I don't think a 15k salary contract is signed if TS has any basic sense. (if the contract states 15k salary I will take EE's side) So how much is EE getting? 7k a month for first 3 months. Once again he mixes things up: TS replies on sponsors in first hand to have any money to pay them. Panda's investment has nothing to do with EE as his a contracted player. He got paid 7k (and later 8k) per month at least for the first 3 months, this is better than the 6k intial offer kemal made in chat. Think about the facts and my earlier arguments about player / organization responsibility. EE got what he promised (again i dont see anyone promised 15k unless he shows an evidence supporting the 15k number (such as contract, or screen shot of conversation) , the pictures EE posted only suggest a "goal"). 8k or 15k? I only see a solid evidence of 6k. Once again the only evidence thats related between 15k and puppey is here... which puppey denies. Without further evidence the dialogue supports my point: only 8k agreed (should be in contract). My conclusion on 15k incidence: no evidence suggesting anyone promised EE a 15k salary, it has clarily stated by kemal a initial offer of 6k (which ee got 7-8k) and only a goal of getting them 15k (which unfortunely did not happen, but close i would say?) if things go their way. Payment are not made in precise terms (which should be precisely stated in contract whether is bi weekly, or monthly). TS maybe late in payment, which is bad, but i do not see a 15k promise. And it is not hard to understand, once you view this salary incidence from the management position, u'll be pretty pissed off if your employee keep bugging you for something that was not promised. Pretty sure you misunderstood this part, the first screenshot is off Kemal offering EE to make an NA branch of TS, not so much before joining TS initially. You'll need to reread the blog for that part. Also I'm not going to say that I see any promise of 15k made through these screenshots, however, the last screenshot quoted above does imply that there was definitely talk of 15k done between them before. Otherwise Puppey wouldn't even talk about that 15k in such a way. EDIT: The first screenshot was before he started to dig more details about how the payments were set up. On October 17 2016 04:08 HolyPepsi wrote:
Owner responsibility:
Find investors: unlike a meat shop, the more meat they sell the better. E-sports club is a werid thing, they do not make things nor investments. You can't rely on finding a rich kid just throwing money for the organizationi, in most case - you have to provide value for the investor. A good thing a club like TS can provide is the follower - But they manage to handle a deal with Panda TV, a deal that is so good for this stage of their organization. I would say kemal done a good job for getting a sponsor like this, enough for TS to survive for a while. But here is the thing that they seem to failed to do.
Kemal didn't get a sponsor like this. EE did, he could have gotten a 500k deal on his own instead. Granted, the time frame was not specifically stated in the blog for this, but based on the rest of the deal that was mention, we can assume he meant 500k a year. which would bag him 41k+ a month. Even if it is over 3 years it'd be 12k a month. Which was more than what he got over sharing the deal with the rest of the team. So you could see why he was pissed over this. Had he taken the offer from PandaTV himself, TS wouldn't even get that deal. Also in his blog he stated that he only got 24k over three months (excluding prize money) where he stated that it's basically just the PandaTV money that EE himself has gotten for the team. In addition to that he had prize cuts of $29333 during that time, where he basically got more money cut off from his prize money compared to the salary he was given. It is pretty clear that 15k was a goal, not an agreed number thats in the contract. Without judging the realistic sitaution of the organization, and as no where in the contract stats the number 15k, Envy is naive to take grant as promise. I am sure envy has the contract, why doesn't he reveal the contract? Everything else is envy's words against kemal and puppey. I am not convienced by the facts (no fact) at all . The 2nd part, again there is no evidence besides how puppey screw up this hours (which puppey should take responsibilty on that). Yet he did not mention how rtz and universe quitting the team has any effect on the contract. I am sure EE and RTZ are the main reason that PandaTV even instereted. Everything else It is Envy's words against TS. Envy simply discredit the entire TS team on the pandatv deal, and credit himself with everything. This is simply not possible. If he reject a half million dollar deal, that is his choice, like how he rejected the earlier EG invitation, kicked aui etc, he should live with the consequence. Let's see if Envy can impress us on settling a similar deal with team NP. For example settling a million dollar deal with panda or huomao for team NP, then I will be really impressed. I'm saying the first part is not before joining TS but after quitting TS. 15k is the goal for TS.NA offered by Kemal, not TS with Puppey. At this point, it was before EE was getting ready for his NP stack and before he started asking for clarification on how the money was handled. You have to understand that they are two different 15k salary. You'll need to read back on the blog and understand the timeline. On the second part, sure EE made the mistake of rejecting the deal, but the main point is that if he didn't reject the deal unless PandaTV made a deal with the whole TS, there won't be any deal with PandaTV to begin with. They wouldn't even talk to Kemal or the organisation. So I don't think you should give that much credit that to Kemal as if he was the one who went looking for the PandaTV deal.
Your point is valid if team NP can get a similar deal like this in the next couple of months, where EE sound completely capable of.
So 15k does not have much against puppey then.
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Don't forget the Secret update http://teamsecret.gg/update/
Not that reading it is worth much though, they say literally nothing of value except that the sponsor actually did pay on time.
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... what a joke, at this point i think they believe we're all tards lol
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its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 19 2016 09:01 HolyPepsi wrote:
its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
it's very likely that this drama won't die down any time soon if what EE says is true.
that being said, we'll have a piece on this out tomorrow
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TS basically says sponsors pay them but didn't mention about all the other stuff EE talked about.
A bunch of nothing statement.
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Your flair checks out pepsi.
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On October 19 2016 09:01 HolyPepsi wrote:
its a good answer from both puppey and TS (which did admit they made mistakes). Despict puppey is arguably the most successful all time dota player, what ee has snitched him will keep him more motivated. People will forget about drama very quickly, in the end we care about good dota, which seems NP is failing to deliver.
Good answer..? Puppey's answer is fine for the personal side of things but that is hardly relevant anyway. What needed to be addressed is Secret taking prize money cuts without the players knowing, their payments being terribly delayed and them still owing money to some people. You can't brush this aside with an everyone makes mistakes line. They made a statement addressing none of the serious accusations and not convincing the public that they will make sure their outstanding debts will be payed.
Also funnily enough they thank their sponsors, specifically EGB, for their "timely payments" while Kemal said to EE that none of the sponsors other than Panda pay any money.
But I think you are right that people will somewhat forget if players don't talk about it in the future and Secret quietly improves how they run the team. However, the way Secret has handled their business this far doesn't exactly make me convinced that they are capable of running the organisation properly. I thought that the previous drama 8 months ago or whatever would have prompted Secret to make sure it doesn't happen again, but it apparently did nothing to help. If they don't fix their stuff they will have issues finding sponsors (not that they had much success this far) and get top players to play in the organisation. Getting players to come there may even be a problem now given that they went for 3 SEA players, which I doubt was the first thing on Puppey's mind post TI.
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I think this whole thing is just blown up by stupid people circle jerking too much. I think some people even w33 defended TS because he think EE just blew the few bad parts out of proportion too much.
Let us not forget the fabled Monster drink that EE poured and his outrage online. It just proves everyone has super bad sides and I am willing to bet everyone has lashed out at something before. Not attacking EE personally but I do feel stupid people just blew the whole thing out of proportions.
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On October 19 2016 21:16 G3CKO wrote:
I think this whole thing is just blown up by stupid people circle jerking too much. I think some people even w33 defended TS because he think EE just blew the few bad parts out of proportion too much.
Let us not forget the fabled Monster drink that EE poured and his outrage online. It just proves everyone has super bad sides and I am willing to bet everyone has lashed out at something before. Not attacking EE personally but I do feel stupid people just blew the whole thing out of proportions.
I don't believe w33 defended TS in any way, but was responding to people making all sorts of Puppey memes about his behavior towards w33. As I've said before I don't think the personal side of the blog should have really been there and indeed you can pick out all sorts of stupid things EE has done himself. However, the main issue with Puppey here is not that he is some sort of an unpleasant person but that he presumably is part of Secret's ownership and all the things Secret is accused of are partly on him too.
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Getting their winnings cut by 10%, not getting salaries etc are things EE can only blame himself for. Its his own mistake that he played for a team without a contract. When push comes to shove, no verbal agreements and trust based relationships (as Envy puts it) matter, all that matters is a written legal contract.
It might seem as if Im defending Secret, Im not. In fact imo if Secret was a serious company they themselves would insist on having contracts. Having a multi millionaire at the helm of the team who presumably is a very successful businessman who managed to secure only 1 paying sponsor for a year time speaks volumes about him. Either his really bad at doing business or is shady as fuck, or maybe both.
From my perspective, Secret and everyone involved in running the company, including Puppy, as well as all the players who have played for Secret are at fault.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/kemal/6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/23.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://npgame.gg/blog/images/puppey/2.jpg)
