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Personal attack = Ban.
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On October 10 2016 17:00 lolnoty wrote:
I don't think you can spin puppey as an also-victim when his laziness is talked about. The guy has to stream 1 hour per day for a $mil+ contract for his team, and still couldn't be bothered? Aside from the many issues talked about, puppey's selfish laziness has no excuse. Not even showing up for scrims, choosing to not practice for anything except just when TI is coming.
If anything this makes me like xboct/dendi more after all the drama old Na'Vi had. I used to think XBOCT was the difficult toxic player, but, whelp...
I think XBOCT was the only one hold the post-TI4 Na'Vi for it to still be a team.
After that Artstyle came back for his long-time friends, after seeing his student has abandon the team he was so passionate about.
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What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post.
If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement.
Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money.
If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
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On October 12 2016 01:08 Saechiis wrote:
These stories paint a Puppey that has lost his Dota passion and is abusing his established position to make a comfortable living.
More like a sociopath who's found his niche: a steady supply of people easy to bully and manipulate. In any other environment one of his "You want to know who is right? Fight me!" would get accepted, he'd get beaten by the other four and thereby proven wrong by his own account
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On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
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On October 13 2016 01:01 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings. Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who?
Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate.
I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see 
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On October 13 2016 01:05 Asjo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 01:01 Baarn wrote:On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings. Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who? Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate. I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see
Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
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On October 13 2016 01:09 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 01:05 Asjo wrote:On October 13 2016 01:01 Baarn wrote:On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings. Pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq is a crime now? According to what or who? Your comment provides no context that would allow me to make a proper reply. Please elaborate. I can only assume that you say that the Turkish enterprise owned by Kemal's father was involved in such action and therefore surely can have no association with the Turkish mafia (despite looking dodgy as fuck). Or it was a joking reference that I didn't see Kamal's fathers business is pulling wrecked ships from channel waters in Iraq.Here you are calling people criminals with nothing but conspiracy theories to support it.
I'm not the source for calling him criminal. The people on the comments behind the link I provided are saying that his enterprise is likely a criminal one. See further details yourself (this comment, for instance).
Of course, if there enough evidence has surfaced, he'd be convinced. We're simply trying to use these details to make sense of the current situation this community faces. I cannot say anything conclusively. To me, it just sounds like a very likely explanation. I'd dare say that most people who are rich in less established countries have been involved with criminal enterprise in one way or another, simply because if they weren't, the ones who are would have gotten rid of them already.
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Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
On October 12 2016 23:15 Asjo wrote:What sounds like an even more accurate account of the likely reason for postponement of payment as surface: See Reddit post. If we assume (as this person claims to have researched) that Kemal does indeed have money already and is from a rich family behind a criminal operation based in Turkey, it seems sensible that money in laundered in this way. That explains the delays and the blacklisted bank account mentioned in EternalEnvy's statement. Assuming that Kemal does indeed have plenty of money, my explanation of him leeching money and covering for it with future winnings seems less likely. You could argue that they should be able to fully pay out the players if the above explanation is true, but I think they need to make the numbers for the money laundering operation seem plausible, which is probably why the cannot go with a straight forward distribution of prize money. If still mystifies me how a gaming organization could ever be a good way to lauder money. I mean, given the limited sources of believable income you can list, I assume that the amount of money you can launder this way is fairly limited. And with the huge attention at a team like Team Secret, scrutiny is likely if you don't carry out your operation without causing a stir. Then again, the son has to get into his father's business in some way. Maybe this is a stepping stone of a kind, one that helps provide a plausible background for future dealings.
I should focus your attention on the assumption that, hypothetically, Secret could be only one of the establishments used to launder money (if that really happens; though imo we can't exlcude this possibility atm). It's not that it's super easy to launder the moneyz i assume, so the more tools you have at your disposal - the better.
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On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
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The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mostly because your a Puppey fan, lets be real lol
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On October 13 2016 07:05 wims80 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
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The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation. It's mostly because your a Puppey fan, lets be real lol
I mean, I don't think that anyone in the dota 2 community can say that they've never been a fan.
That doesn't discredit anything I'm saying though, if
1) 2 people can independently give a time and place where the finances were discussed
2) Envy can give a reason why he would have been too distracted at the time to think about it or care about it
3) And Envy was relying on Puppey to do the right thing for him without paying attention to the business side of things
Then, it seems very plausible that Envy did not know about any of the business side due to his own ignorance and not the team's failure to communicate it to him.
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When the Evany stuff went down, they even added a big disclaimer at the top of every page of the thread specifying that we don't have the full picture since Team Secret hadn't commented on it yet. I'm actually curious why the mods have opted not to do so this time too. Seems very inconsistent to me, or perhaps they just realized how silly it was to do that last time.
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On October 13 2016 07:14 Dysisa wrote:
When the Evany stuff went down, they even added a big disclaimer at the top of every page of the thread specifying that we don't have the full picture since Team Secret hadn't commented on it yet. I'm actually curious why the mods have opted not to do so this time too. Seems very inconsistent to me, or perhaps they just realized how silly it was to do that last time.
I think there are a couple reasons for that
1) The delayed payments is basically confirmed
2) EE is a bigger deal and people believe what he puts out (which is fine, because it doesn't seem like he's lying, but there is potential for neither party to be lying based on the text messages - In this case EE would just be misinformed due to his own shortcomings on that front)
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With the testimony of EE, Evany, Fly, Notail, Kuro, w33,
Pupey and Kemal should be suspended from Valve events until they pay all their victims the money they are owed.
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On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation.
It's mind boggling to me how some people are still trying to defend Secret. There is no question Puppey's organization stole from the other members of his team. There is enough evidence to indicate that none of Secret's ex-members knew about the 10% cut, and in fact, they had all talked about and agreed on having no cuts at all.
Verbal agreements are legally binding (http://thelawdictionary.org/article/is-a-verbal-agreement-legally-binding/). Not having written contracts has no bearing on whether the law was broken, only on how difficult it would be to litigate against Secret if it came to that point (and it's pretty clear the players involved don't have any desire to take matters to court). Even if they did have written contracts, good luck suing an Estonian and a Turk.
Also, whether Envy was ignorant of Secret's internal business dealings has nothing to do with anything at all. He isn't responsible for Secret's business. He's just a player, and in fact, if you actually read Envy's blog, every time he asked Puppey and Kemal about business issues and sponsorships they brushed him off and told him to focus on playing Dota. Regardless, if a factory worker's boss secretly took 10% out of his paycheck to pay for company expenses and overhead "for the good of the company", you would never justify the actions of the boss by blaming the worker for failing to understand the business. Why is it any different here?
The only thing that matters in this case for determining wrongdoing is whether Puppey (Secret's owner) and the other players had a mutual understanding that there would be no cuts on tournament winnings. I think it's pretty safe to say that's indisputable at this point. Not to mention both Misery and Envy said they were being payed in random amounts at random intervals and were never told where the money actually came from. That sounds super shady to me and seems purposely designed to obfuscate. It's no wonder no one noticed the money was missing for so long.
Edit: Also, I'd be pretty pissed, and rightfully so, if someone lost me 200k because they were too lazy to fulfill their contractual obligations when I went above and beyond to fulfill mine.
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@Eywa-
In addition to the in general slow payments the more concrete "accusations" were money still missing (for example from w33 as stated in Misery's blog, and EE seems to talk about some other people, not sure if players, coaches or staff, who weren't being payed but that's less concrete), and the 10% prize cut which was hidden to all players due to talks of no cuts (both Misery and EE were fully under this impression). Also not only based on this but also the Evany blog the communication from Secret's side seems to be laughable at best towards the players.
You're right that the Panda deal seems to have been talked about and indeed quite a bit of the blog is just about "is this right" rather than "Secret did specifically x wrong". Also the Puppey part even being there indicates that EE isn't trying to be as polite as possible while trying to get what he and others are owed, but is rather pissed (who knows if something else was said that isn't in the blog).
Maybe there isn't clear lying as far as the Panda money goes, but clearly EE specifically is getting pretty royally screwed there. He was denied getting personal sponsorships, he got the team the deal, and most of the money is going (in a not transparent way) to paying all sorts of stuff and only a small portion comes back to the dota players. Maybe the money actually goes to growing Secret as a "business" and maybe it was agreed to be like this, EE was just not paying attention and there's no wrong doing that way. However, It isn't too surprising for there to be suspicion when you combine it with the recently revealed 10% cut, poor general communication and transparency from Secret's side and incredibly delayed or missing payments. But I agree that in this part it's more about wondering who is using the money and how rather than a concrete accusation of something specific. In any case let's just say that it doesn't give the impression Secret is an organization built to be beneficial for the players who are bringing in the revenue.
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On October 13 2016 09:00 Lancehead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
It seems like Puppey and Kemal hadn't been talking to each other about everything in the Envy conversations, though it also seems that Puppey and Kemal identify a common time and location at which the team would have spoken about the things Envy is complaining about (with Envy present - thus anything he didn't soak in would be his fault).
Envy's only counter to that is he couldn't have known because at the time he was too focused on Dota... Which really isn't a good excuse in this case. AND he says that he was trusting in Puppey to do the right thing for the team. So assume Envy was part of this meeting and didn't register what it was about because he wasn't interested in the business portion, that does give clearance for Puppey or whoever the decision maker is in this case to "do what they think is right for the team" (and this clearly did not align with Envy's expectations).
The reason I say that it lacks content is because Envy tries to tie emotional issues to financial issues and also attempts to tie different financial issues together in one package, selling them as one (despite not being related), in order to suck the reader in. Emotions and finance should never be mixed (and if they are actually intertwined in his mind, then his whole blog means nothing) because it makes it seem like he's just trying to start a shit storm and bandwagon against Puppey & Secret.
Of course, this is all speculation (and my guess is as good as anyone else's as to what actually happened), I feel like someone should probably write that in the OP so that the blog isn't taken as fact (as it probably will be anyway, because this is a fan site and EE is a favorite) since there really isn't any supporting evidence of anything other than late payments. The only reason I'm defending Secret here is because everyone is shitting on them without any knowledge of the situation. It's mind boggling to me how some people are still trying to defend Secret. There is no question Puppey's organization stole from the other members of his team. There is enough evidence to indicate that none of Secret's ex-members knew about the 10% cut, and in fact, they had all talked about and agreed on having no cuts at all. Verbal agreements are legally binding (http://thelawdictionary.org/article/is-a-verbal-agreement-legally-binding/). Not having written contracts has no bearing on whether the law was broken, only on how difficult it would be to litigate against Secret if it came to that point (and it's pretty clear the players involved don't have any desire to take matters to court). Even if they did have written contracts, good luck suing an Estonian and a Turk. Also, whether Envy was ignorant of Secret's internal business dealings has nothing to do with anything at all. He isn't responsible for Secret's business. He's just a player, and in fact, if you actually read Envy's blog, every time he asked Puppey and Kemal about business issues and sponsorships they brushed him off and told him to focus on playing Dota. Regardless, if a factory worker's boss secretly took 10% out of his paycheck to pay for company expenses and overhead "for the good of the company", you would never justify the actions of the boss by blaming the worker for failing to understand the business. Why is it any different here? The only thing that matters in this case for determining wrongdoing is whether Puppey (Secret's owner) and the other players had a mutual understanding that there would be no cuts on tournament winnings. I think it's pretty safe to say that's indisputable at this point. Not to mention both Misery and Envy said they were being payed in random amounts at random intervals and were never told where the money actually came from. That sounds super shady to me and seems purposely designed to obfuscate. It's no wonder no one noticed the money was missing for so long. Edit: Also, I'd be pretty pissed, and rightfully so, if someone lost me 200k because they were too lazy to fulfill their contractual obligations when I went above and beyond to fulfill mine.
Yeah this, basically.
Moreover, what are we talking about, 300k $ a year? Or total, doesn't matter. These guys can easily afford lawyers. They clearly don't want to. They seem to prefer the PR side of things.
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On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out.
You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
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On October 13 2016 10:26 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out. https://twitter.com/w33haa/status/785227455422427136You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself.
I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed.
I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract.
@Spudde123
I like your post a lot.
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On October 13 2016 11:14 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 10:26 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 13 2016 06:55 Eywa- wrote:
Is there actually speculation of criminal activity based on a pro gamer's blog?
After a second read through, I get the feeling from that EE lacks maturity and concrete content (despite the blog being insanely long).
Observations:
*proceeds to say nonsense*
This is what happened after Envy and Misery blogs came out. https://twitter.com/w33haa/status/785227455422427136You clearly don't care about direct experiences of those who are directly affected. You're not God. You have no overwhelming insight into the human condition let alone the individual behaviors of the people you try to defend and critique. Stop exposing yourself. I don't have any insight into the experiences, but nor do any of the people beating on secret. The fact remains that if there were legal wrongdoing, why wouldn't the players be taking action? They clearly can all afford lawyers. And no, I don't care much for the direct experience of the players as it is their careers, you know what... Work isn't always a walk in the park and sometimes it sucks for years. Deal with it. I'm just debating whether there is financial wrongdoing and it's not clear from the blog that there is OTHER than the delayed payments. There is no supporting evidence for the 10% and the panda contract NOT being discussed. I'm also not trying to tell you what happened, I'm trying to point out that it's pretty ridiculous to use EE's blog as evidence for the 10% cut or the panda contract. @Spudde123 I like your post a lot.
What do you mean there is no supporting evidence for the 10% not being discussed? Literally NONE of the other players knew about it. I don't know how much clearer it can get than that. Envy didn't know. Misery didn't know. w33 didn't know (Envy said it was w33 who clued him in that there was a lot of money missing). Pie didn't know (Envy texted him. It's there in the blog. If the texts were fabricated you'd think Pie would have said something by now). That's EVERY ex-member of the old team.
How do you hold a conversation about cutting your teammates' pay by 10% without anyone noticing? It's not a discussion if you whisper it under your breath, you know.
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EPT
