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On October 08 2010 03:10 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:09 theSAiNT wrote:On October 08 2010 03:04 phant wrote:
Regardless of matchup any good Zerg can now get a free fast expansion up with no worry of pressure, since the main counters to that build were 2 gate zealot rush (already taken out 1.1) or fast rax (nerfed in 1.2 with depot before rax). Also, reapers are still good. They force either lots of speedlings or roaches. Again, the point isn't to win the game immediately but to put pressure on the zerg. No, reapers are completely terrible without speed. They already get completely destroyed by speedlings and will now get destroyed by roaches as well.
I think Blizz is telling us that they intend for the reaper to be a surprise attack/scouting unit only. They don't want reapers beating combat units like roaches in the early game. Reapers will still be good for bouncing into the main for a quick scout or backstab as the main army hits the front, and they'll still be excellent for taking down destructible rocks and holding watch towers after the harass is done. The 3-5 rax reaper stuff vs Z was never intended to be in the game.
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I wish we knew the timeframe of those statistics. I think its safe to assume they are all post 1.1
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The statistic actually tell that Zerg are winning more on Diamond when versus Terran. So why nerf reapers so hard?
Barrack requires a supply depot to use will limit many strategy. For now, people will only build Barrack first because they're going for Reaper, but its not concrete, how can Blizzard be sure that in the future, maybe there are some other stats that go Barrack first w/o building Reapers later.
I'm ok with reaper speed being moved after Factory though.
Think harder Blizzard.....
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Finland33997 Posts
On October 08 2010 03:15 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:10 gREIFOCs wrote:On October 08 2010 03:03 Woony wrote:Maybe they don't want Terran to be the "needs to be in the opponents face all the time to be effective" race anymore? Could be, I don't know but I think it's ridiculous, people want something, they get it and now they cry about it. Shows how you can't take the communitys QQ as a measure for balancing.
I think the "Terran must harrass to win" is plain wrong. They have great static defenses, they have wall-ins, they have PFs, they have mules. They can take a easy expand and trough mules get an advantage in minerals. Also their units are more cost effective and have choices towards a highly movile army (MMM is the most mobile thing in the game) and a great mech to stand in ground until you decide to attack. So... Who's that if they don't attack all the time they get behind? I would understand that if a 200/200 army would be less effective than a 200/200 zerg army. But that's not the case. Terran must harass to win, this is the truth. It's been well known for a long time that T lategame is worse than P lategame (terran has no counter to protoss HT/zealots).
I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but... why do pre-igniter Hellions not work?
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Barracks requiring a Supply Depot seems really silly to me, and removes a bit of diversity from the game.
Should Spawning Pools require an Overlord?
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I cant belive how many people are crying that zerg will 7 pool against terrran now? ( and lol at people writing 6 pool )
What the heck? Early pooling vs terrran is terrible since terran workers do good enough vs lings, not beccaouse T can wall off early
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I think roaches may go to 3.5 range not 4... reaper has 4.5 range if i am not mistaken(so they are not afraid of .5 for range)... not sure if it was suggested already
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Change it so that Zergs also need a 2nd ovi before spawning pool if Bliz's gonna force a supply before rax.
That's only fair.
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On October 08 2010 03:14 LuciferSC wrote:Any good explanation as to why Terran would need to have a supply depot before racks??
Terran need somewhere to "produce" new recruits to train into marines. Naturally you need a supply depo first unless they do it O Natural in the tall grass.
On October 08 2010 03:18 LuciferSC wrote:
Change it so that Zergs also need a 2nd ovi before spawning pool if Bliz's gonna force a supply before rax.
That's only fair.
Problem with that is Zergs start with an overlord. The better solution would be to give Nexus a damn power field so protoss can build anything they want around the nexus without using pylons for it. Would fix a shit ton of problems and makes sense, Nexus has a damn Pylon on its roof after all.
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These are soo good for Zerg! but there are no protoss changes at all?
Roach range sounds great for dealing with stalkers more efficiently.
The fungal growth one sounds like a good call.
The supply depot one is pretty over the top if you ask me.
And the Reaper speed will ruin 5 Rax Reapers forever!
Just my opinion though.
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Barracks before depot is retarded, there are other ways to fix the 2v2 TZ rush, specifically nerfing reapers to uselessness which I wouldn't have minded as much. I don't understand why reapers even exist. Terran has enough harassment options.
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On October 08 2010 03:15 MagisterMan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:12 dekuschrub wrote:
now zerg can just 12 hatch every fucking game unchecked
Well in BW zergs would pretty much 12 hatch every game safely. Sure there could be an occasional BBS but a BBS in BW was much more of an allin than a fast reaper rush in SC2. Still think the supple/barracks change is unnecessery.
Zerg could not 12hatch every game safely. Terran doesn't have to BBS to beat a 12hatch. 1 proxy rax counters 12hatch and it's not even an all-in.
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I'm not ok with depot requirement for rax. Now two workers can be harrassed to slow down rax production (the one on the depot and the one on the rax).
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On October 08 2010 03:17 Triscuit wrote:
I like the idea of making a barracks tech lab upgrade require factory.
I don't think it should be reaper speed though, I think it should be concussive shell. IMO.
There would be no way to stop roaches for terrans if you needed to build a factory just to make a tech lab just to make marauders.
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I think depot->rax change is a consequence of zealot nerf. I have seen many games where terran opens with 7 rax, builds bunker at protoss base. Its almost impossible to defend with one zealot and probes.
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They're forcing players not to mass 1 unit like Terrans have been doing with reapers. Reapers are still very deadly against speedlings, so you could mass marauders/reapers and own roaches/speedlings.
It's the same as if we're trying to go banelings and roaches to counter your bioball.
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On October 08 2010 03:18 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:15 iEchoic wrote:On October 08 2010 03:10 gREIFOCs wrote:On October 08 2010 03:03 Woony wrote:Maybe they don't want Terran to be the "needs to be in the opponents face all the time to be effective" race anymore? Could be, I don't know but I think it's ridiculous, people want something, they get it and now they cry about it. Shows how you can't take the communitys QQ as a measure for balancing.
I think the "Terran must harrass to win" is plain wrong. They have great static defenses, they have wall-ins, they have PFs, they have mules. They can take a easy expand and trough mules get an advantage in minerals. Also their units are more cost effective and have choices towards a highly movile army (MMM is the most mobile thing in the game) and a great mech to stand in ground until you decide to attack. So... Who's that if they don't attack all the time they get behind? I would understand that if a 200/200 army would be less effective than a 200/200 zerg army. But that's not the case. Terran must harass to win, this is the truth. It's been well known for a long time that T lategame is worse than P lategame (terran has no counter to protoss HT/zealots). I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but... why do pre-igniter Hellions not work?
Try getting Hellions in a ball of Colossus with range + high templar backed up by stalkers
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On October 08 2010 01:26 Senx wrote:
Reapers will finally be 100% gimmick and not viable anymore, I hope Blizzard makes a complete revision of this unit and gives it spider mines and make it from starports only, as its really a flying unit moreso than a walking unit.
It would make any TvX matchup so much more dynamic imo
wat
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Somehow that stuff all sounds so "randomly" in the changes and drastically makes it worser.
I mean a tiny change allready affects the game a lot, theirs no need to change so much and so "big" stuff.
If that turns out to be true, well, no idea what will happen ...
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According to the reaper change it would imo make much more sense to unlock the upgrade after you built a starport and in return for that decrease the reaper building time to something around 30ish.
Reapers are not worthless later because they are not good, they are worthless because they take A SHITLOAD OF TIME from your techlabs which requires you to get insane amounts of barracks. Seriously they take more time than a friggin' ghost and even ghosts feel like they need forever to get built. Without the supply depot barracks changes they couldn't do that because of cheese, the reaper would be in the opponent's base way too early, but I don't see any barrier for a really fast building time reaper anymore. Give them a role, give them less building time.
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EPT
