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A 10 depot, 12 barracks, 13 depot already stops a 6 pool. I don't think I've ever seen someone go barracks before depot just to stop a 6 pool.
Wait why do these buffs kill 5RR?
Because you can't get speed without a factory and reapers without speed are really easy to stop? If you are going to put down a factory as part of your build you might as well just go medivacs and raid with drops instead of having reapers which aren't very useful.
You will see almost no reapers after this patch except for a single reaper scout/harass early but you'll see a lot more quick drops.
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Oh no, terrans will learn how to drop 2 blue flame hellions and 1-shot 10 drones now 
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This patch sounds bad. The roach range is HUGE, it will effect all MUs depending on the range it would shut out not only reapers but hellions and protoss wall in as well. And the depo before rax destroys any sort of proxy rax cheese from Terran. I'm not a fan of cheese, but the option of it being taken away sounds terrible.
Honestly, i thought this was a joke. Nothing to do but sit and wait, and sip on those Terran tears.
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On October 08 2010 01:59 .kv wrote:I'm praying they don't nerf the Protoss race because of Gold and below level percentages
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On October 08 2010 03:02 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:55 AveiMil wrote:On October 08 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:
You probably don't build enough SCVs or stuff, T late/mid is still extremely strong vs Z. Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road. Have you ever tried defending against mass Thor push mid game? Terran one base vs Zerg two base. This is such a pain in the ass.
No, never done such a push my self and never seen a replay of it. Generally in my experience by the time you have a large amount of Thor's out the Zerg will always be on 3 base. I'd love to see a replay of it though.
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On October 08 2010 03:06 kasumimi wrote:
Why so much complaining about the barracks change? From what I've seen T only goes 7-8 racks first only for cheese or some auto-win reaper build vs 14 hatch Z.
Can someone explain?
I don't understand the "but we need more options argument", unless you are a cheese addict this change has zero impact. I'm not a T user and I'm not trolling, just trying to understand if this change is as bad as people make it out to be.
9 rax 11 depot is a non-cheesy, almost-standard opening. Silver used it against me in TvT games in the craftcup even on 4v4 maps because it opens bio faster. In addition, 9rax is sometimes used on steppes against protoss to stop cheese, which will now be impossible. Why remove these options from the game? Why can't Terran have cheese options, either?
This change helps team games at the expense of solo. It's a clear shout-out to the crying of newbies who can't beat terrible reaper rushes. This is easily the most insulting and stupid change.
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Lol! Time to 6pool vs T in every 1v1 map! And how is scouting at 9 supposed to stop this? Also Terran HAVING to scout at 9 now is HUGE.
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On October 08 2010 03:04 phant wrote:
Regardless of matchup any good Zerg can now get a free fast expansion up with no worry of pressure, since the main counters to that build were 2 gate zealot rush (already taken out 1.1) or fast rax (nerfed in 1.2 with depot before rax).
Play the game.
2 gate zealots are still good pressure. They don't take out the expansion but they force a lot more zerglings to be made than the zerg wants. The point isn't to win the game with 2 gate.
Also, reapers are still good. They force either lots of speedlings or roaches. Again, the point isn't to win the game immediately but to put pressure on the zerg.
People are going to have to stop thinking that 'pressure' builds should immediately win them the game. Accept that it's 'fair' for Zergs to be able to respond instead of just dieing immediately.
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On October 08 2010 03:04 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:02 Shikyo wrote:On October 08 2010 03:01 Fa1nT wrote:
What do you think the roach range will be?
4?
5?
I highly doubt the will pass that. Ehh I'm thinking 3.5 which would be enough for both Reapers and Hellions to not survive unscratched, it it's 4 there might be some balance issues. It'll be range 4. Range 4 is fair. Hellions still have a +1 range, and could still kite Roaches.
No, they cannot kite, not like vultures. They have freeze animation when shooting, which is enough time for roach to make a step and get in range.
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On October 08 2010 03:06 kasumimi wrote:
Why so much complaining about the barracks change? From what I've seen T only goes 7-8 racks first only for cheese or some auto-win reaper build vs 14 hatch Z.
Can someone explain?
I don't understand the "but we need more options argument", unless you are a cheese addict this change has zero impact. I'm not a T user and I'm not trolling, just trying to understand if this change is as bad as people make it out to be. Having the option keeps your opponent honest. Without it, you can open econ build with no defenses and no scouting, and that early game advantage multiplies throughout the game.
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So then I'm assuming the patch following this one they will rename the Reaper to "Scout" just to solidify their useless role.
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On October 08 2010 03:03 Woony wrote:Maybe they don't want Terran to be the "needs to be in the opponents face all the time to be effective" race anymore? Could be, I don't know but I think it's ridiculous, people want something, they get it and now they cry about it. Shows how you can't take the communitys QQ as a measure for balancing.
I think the "Terran must harrass to win" is plain wrong. They have great static defenses, they have wall-ins, they have PFs, they have mules. They can take a easy expand and trough mules get an advantage in minerals. Also their units are more cost effective and have choices towards a highly movile army (MMM is the most mobile thing in the game) and a great mech to stand in ground until you decide to attack.
So... Who's that if they don't attack all the time they get behind? I would understand that if a 200/200 army would be less effective than a 200/200 zerg army. But that's not the case.
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Am I the only person who thinks that roach range increase was meant to help a little more vs protoss than terran?
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On October 08 2010 03:09 theSAiNT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:04 phant wrote:
Regardless of matchup any good Zerg can now get a free fast expansion up with no worry of pressure, since the main counters to that build were 2 gate zealot rush (already taken out 1.1) or fast rax (nerfed in 1.2 with depot before rax). Also, reapers are still good. They force either lots of speedlings or roaches. Again, the point isn't to win the game immediately but to put pressure on the zerg.
No, reapers are completely terrible without speed. They already get completely destroyed by speedlings and will now get destroyed by roaches as well.
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increasing roach range will be amazing, plus itll either make it much more difficult for some joe shmo to kite roaches with reapers or make it impossible.
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On October 08 2010 03:07 EnderCN wrote:A 10 depot, 12 barracks, 13 depot already stops a 6 pool. I don't think I've ever seen someone go barracks before depot just to stop a 6 pool. Because you can't get speed without a factory and reapers without speed are really easy to stop? If you are going to put down a factory as part of your build you might as well just go medivacs and raid with drops instead of having reapers which aren't very useful. You will see almost no reapers after this patch except for a single reaper scout/harass early but you'll see a lot more quick drops.
I think you guys are confusing 5RR that can either mean 5 rax reaper or 5roach rush.
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On October 08 2010 03:08 Jarmam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 01:59 .kv wrote:I'm praying they don't nerf the Protoss race because of Gold and below level percentages
It's not just gold and below, it's platinum and below.
Regardless, they have made it clear already that they will be adjusting PvT; despite the imperative to keep pro-level games balanced, there's no reason to let Protoss run away with games so much at the lower levels if Blzzard can fix it.
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I really like the zerg changes, but the nerfs of the reaper are a bit overkill there. I don't like the idea of the requirement of the depot for the barracks nor the factory for nitro. They should do something like making nitro slower to research or make it costlier.
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On October 08 2010 03:07 AveiMil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:01 Shikyo wrote:On October 08 2010 02:55 AveiMil wrote:On October 08 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:
You probably don't build enough SCVs or stuff, T late/mid is still extremely strong vs Z. Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road. That's not my experience at all, as the upgrades get larger T units actually have a bigger and bigger advantage because their units tend to gain more dmg per upgrade so the opposing armor upgrades aren't as powerful. Off the top of my head the ret vs Morrow game: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=1281...where ret defends vs early reapers almost perfectly and is in a huge lead in the mid/late game can't kill Morrow who turtles and gets PF's, MMM ball, tanks even by using Ultras and Broodlords. Even though that might not be the case for every game, I definitely wouldn't agree that the lategame is hugely in Z's favor. @Jinro Yeah I understand, but I still think that Hellions should be viable. You just might need to open with a Hellion drop or something like that, both tanks and Thors are still quite strong vs Roaches. Marauder-mech should still be possible if Roaches turn out to be too strong. Thanks for the replay, I'll check it out. Though it is worth mentioning that Morrow is one of the best players around and even if he pulls it off it doesn't mean "Terran often wins late game". I've seen almost all the TvZ replays that go up at sc2rep.net and every single Terran seem to struggle mid/late game unless they've damaged their eco heavily early on. Please provide me with more replays of Terran winning the late game though, maybe I can learn something 
Yeah but it seriously is like 5base Zerg with broodlord and ultra and 200/200 vs Morrow with 3base and like 150 supply etc, that's just my counter-example. I know Morrow is the better player but =P yeah
On October 08 2010 03:01 Malminos wrote:
Blizzard obviously has tested the new supply depot-barracks thing a ton. I'm sure the first thing they tested was it VS a 6pool. I'm sure it'll be fine.
I don't understand people who say 6pool will be too strong, every T opens 12rax anyway without problems. That won't change at all because it's always built after the depot in that case anyway, and the 12-rax can easily defend against 6pool, both when walled in and when built next to your CC. Why does a "6pool will instawin now" post always be in every patch thread <_>
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EPT
