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I posted this on the blog comments. If you like the idea please post as well and get the word out. I personally think that this would be a meaningful alternative to what they suggested.
Copy/Paste
I hope this post gets read and considered by the balance team.
I think that the change for Barracks requiring a supply depot to be build is somewhat of a misstep. My normal build order with Terran is to go supply before Barracks, but having that option is important for Terran, just like it is for Zerg being able to early pool.
I think that a better alternative would be to make Reapers require a Tech Lab and Engineering Bay.
This would delay Reaper harass which is what the current change wants but also make it easier to scout and prepare for.
I also think that adding the Engineering Bay to the Reaper tech requirements would give enough delay to the push to cut off the 5 seconds of build time that were added to the Reaper to slow down this kind of play in the previous patch.
Sincerely,
Quixoticism
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On October 08 2010 02:56 Fa1nT wrote:
Yeah, blizzard, what's next? Requiring a Pylon before gateway?
Blasphemous.
Having all things equal as a way to balance is horrible and leads to very boring games.
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On October 08 2010 02:54 Cink wrote:Seriously though 6pool is going to be tough to handle this way.
How is 6pool a problem when you can wall-in? Just scout on 9 and you win almost every time.
On October 08 2010 03:00 lolnoty wrote:Having all things equal as a way to balance is horrible and leads to very boring games.
Agree. Races need to grow appart, not alike.
The problem of this is not that it breaks Terran, not at all. It just takes some of the edge of in the early game. Now I'll know before scouting that I wont see a rax before depot. Is one less thing that I have to worry about. And I like that about this game. Not knowing what I'm gonna find.
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I'm not a huge fan of the depot before barracks. Since reapers cant get speed until factory so I think this is a bit overkill and makes 6 pooling on small maps easier
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What do you think the roach range will be?
4?
5?
I highly doubt the will pass that.
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On October 08 2010 02:55 AveiMil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:
You probably don't build enough SCVs or stuff, T late/mid is still extremely strong vs Z. Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road.
That's not my experience at all, as the upgrades get larger T units actually have a bigger and bigger advantage because their units tend to gain more dmg per upgrade so the opposing armor upgrades aren't as powerful. Off the top of my head the ret vs Morrow game:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=1281
...where ret defends vs early reapers almost perfectly and is in a huge lead in the mid/late game can't kill Morrow who turtles and gets PF's, MMM ball, tanks even by using Ultras and Broodlords. Even though that might not be the case for every game, I definitely wouldn't agree that the lategame is hugely in Z's favor.
@Jinro Yeah I understand, but I still think that Hellions should be viable. You just might need to open with a Hellion drop or something like that, both tanks and Thors are still quite strong vs Roaches. Marauder-mech should still be possible if Roaches turn out to be too strong.
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This may just be what zerg needs.
TERRAN NERFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I play terran, and my bo has sup dep be4 the rax, and i don't reaper rush)
YAYAYYAYAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I like this patch. The terran supply depot thing likely isn't as bad as everyone thinks. It weakens their early game a bit, the same as the zealot build time did. People panicked before the zealot build time patch went live, and now people are panicking because of the terran nerf.
Blizzard obviously has tested the new supply depot-barracks thing a ton. I'm sure the first thing they tested was it VS a 6pool. I'm sure it'll be fine.
As for the roach thing, it'll be nice cause it will allow a little more target focusing from roaches in larger battles, and less of roaches fumbling around to get a shot off. Its definitely a smart move.
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On October 08 2010 02:55 AveiMil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote:
You probably don't build enough SCVs or stuff, T late/mid is still extremely strong vs Z. Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road.
Have you ever tried defending against mass Thor push mid game? Terran one base vs Zerg two base. This is such a pain in the ass.
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Ok cool well i guess im done getting upset, if they implement this patch im just switching to the OP race, protoss. then since the terran is forced to play to the macro game, i will just go fast colossus, expand twice and turtle, then when the terran pushes out just smash him in seconds and win the game. NP. or i could use HT for the same purpose. should be brilliant
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On October 08 2010 03:01 Fa1nT wrote:
What do you think the roach range will be?
4?
5?
I highly doubt the will pass that.
Ehh I'm thinking 3.5 which would be enough for both Reapers and Hellions to not survive unscratched, it it's 4 there might be some balance issues.
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As a recently swapped zerg player, I love this change. The roaches were really lacking. Now if they'd only increase the speed of hydras or give them the BW upgrade.
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On October 08 2010 02:57 Cink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:54 Woony wrote:On October 08 2010 02:52 iEchoic wrote:
These changes are awful, wtf, I am having a really hard time believing these are actually real and not just some troll.
Roach range increase is going to destroy hellion opening in TvZ. You can no longer micro well to kill small number of roaches with this +range using early hellions. What exactly are you going to open with in TvZ now if roaches shut down hellions and reapers can't have speed? Reaper and hellion opening would be garbage now. In what way can you apply early pressure to zerg? I don't see any way.
And a supply depot required to have a barracks? This is just going to vastly limit the amount of potential builds. What's wrong with me going 9rax 10supply? There is nothing cheesy or imbalanced about that. This is such a lazy band-aid fix to a couple annoying cheeses.
Terrible, terrible changes if this is actually going to happen. This is EXACTLYYYY what people have complained about for months: Terran has too many openings. Now they do something about it and people cry about it. Blizzard knows: "What ever you do the result is QQ" So do you have some profound solution for terran as far as early pressure against zerg is concerned? Terran is basically forced to let zerg expand and do the same turtling until mid game.
Maybe they don't want Terran to be the "needs to be in the opponents face all the time to be effective" race anymore? Could be, I don't know but I think it's ridiculous, people want something, they get it and now they cry about it. Shows how you can't take the communitys QQ as a measure for balancing.
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Only thing I don't agree with is the supply depot for barracks. Seems unwarranted.
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On October 08 2010 02:40 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 02:36 kmkkmk wrote:
I wish there was some form of "pro only" forum discussing these things, since really most of the post suggest an end of SC II, which I don't believe in. Please create a read only forum which posting privileges for selected people. Please! Many very good people just talk biased shit too and freak out about every change.
But at least you could trust the normal postings of very good players much more than any of the postings here. Why would I trust anyone in this thread beside a known name like Jinro?
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On October 08 2010 01:16 Woony wrote:
The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.
Goodbye Terran rush. Hello Zerg 6-Pool. This seems like a very bad idea.
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On October 08 2010 02:59 kcdc wrote:
The roach change is scary for PvZ. It's already so hard to deal with mutas that I find myself skipping the robo in a lot of games. Making roaches stronger is going to force me to guess what's coming.
Shouldn't scouting properly solve this? (at least takes the guess work out of "what's coming")
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DBro finally makes the post they could've posted weeks ago where he actually recognises the issues in a candid manner without throwing in some ridiculous statement that just inflames the situation further. The fact it came with some balance changes to look forward to is more the icing on the cake.
I wonder how much of a metrics based approach they've had and whether it's shifted considerably, as it certainly seemed with 1.1 that they were using metrics as a primary source of information for making small changes, which in a game where it's hard to know whether even the top 0.001% know what they're talking about isn't the worst approach, but it's so removed from game design it can be easy to make the wrong conclusions. That said they're balancing a thousand different situations because of the variety of units and matchups that you really have to use all possible information.
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I don't think people are grasping how huge this roach range change would be. This is potentially game-breaking at worst and will completely change the matchup at best.
Neither reapers nor hellions will be able to harass in the early game because they cannot fire shots without getting hit by roaches. The only deterrent from an early roach push was the fact that hellions and reapers could actually shoot the roaches while moving from base-to-base (see TLO vs Losira). Now there is no deterrent. Any sort of offensive opening is going to be incredibly vulnerable to a roach opening (which will probably become standard).
How are you going to be able to put any pressure on the Zerg and keep him from out-droning you?
Besides that, the depot before rax is so insultingly stupid it really disappoints me. This is only going to help team games, and will just reduce variety in solo. It is also going to increase the amount of protoss cheese against terran on steppes. It also makes no logical sense and is a clear shout-out to the noobs who whined about reaper rushes.
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Regardless of matchup any good Zerg can now get a free fast expansion up with no worry of pressure, since the main counters to that build were 2 gate zealot rush (already taken out 1.1) or fast rax (nerfed in 1.2 with depot before rax).
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EPT
