EPTBlizzard on 1v1 Balancing and the new patch - Page 28
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gotterdammerung
Austria17 Posts
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AveiMil
Norway138 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:50 Shikyo wrote: You probably don't build enough SCVs or stuff, T late/mid is still extremely strong vs Z. Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:52 gREIFOCs wrote: Don't agree with the reaper speed Fac requirement, and I'm zerg. With roaches equalling reapers range, i know i'll be OK, even if reapers got their speed from scratch. I like to play against reapers. I love the fact that they force you to place units in odd positions, to plan ambushes, ect. What I hate is that I have nothing to face them and punish them when I'm where i should be. With the roach range I think it's enough to punish them when I'm in the right place. This is actually totally true, I think that the fac requirement is way overboard. If Roach really gets 4 range they will have no problems at all against Reapers even with speed. That's a bad change, really. Even with this change the Reapers could still try to sneak around and snipe some drones(just wouldn't be able to defeat the units that counter them in a straight-up fight...), which is what they're supposed to do. This way Reapers are completely dead... Which along with the supply depot requirement for Barracks means that 16-hatch(why do people say 14? it caps your larvae and is worse) will be pretty much impossible to stop. 1rax CC times incoming? | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
back up your claims with an argument that is sound in logic, one liners are not welcome here in TL. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
u construct rax after depot and u float it to a place withou depot u cant construct units, K in a tvt I cloak banshee to his depot so he will be unable to do ANYTHING ? =P Edit: I think this does need clarification, will it be protoss style meaning no near supply means no NEAR production or u need depot to construct rax but can float them anywhere and produce with it... If the first I just realized this can be kind of huge ... | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:46 Shikyo wrote: Meh, the way it is now that Hellions can endlessly kite the unit that supposedly counters them is just stupid. I'm not sure why you think that roaches shouldn't be able to kill Hellions. You just need to deal eco damage / fight vs lings like Hellion openings are supposed to, there'll always be Marauders for the Roaches anyway. Marauder 7 range with bunker... Barracks is about 3 units wide isn't it? Should be fine. I hate bio builds vs Zerg, I more or less go pure mech and I really dont look forward to having to change that (hopefully I wont). Back in beta, roaches were so strong that I basically was forced to go bio/mech, I dont want it to be that way again. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
Blasphemous. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:49 darkwing.Huzow wrote: As someone who would absolutely NOT be qualified to post in suggested forum, I completely endorse this idea. These conversations are just absolutely useless since 99% of posters (myself included) really do not have the experience and knowledge to intelligently comment on balance issues. I think a pro-only forum with some sort of skill cut-off is a fantastic idea. Would be useful for everyone - all the noobs won't drown out the people with skill. I know I'd love to not have to wade through a thread like this to get the 10 intelligent posts. That forum won't work, unless you know how to read Korean. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
I like the roach range and fungal, but reaper upgrade to factory... maybe buff them some other way now? Maybe just make nitro packs cost more at the tech lab, i don't know.. Was hoping for a hydra buff, perhaps a small 0.3 speed increase offcreep, but i guess i'll use them situationally as usual. | ||
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Cink
United States93 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:54 Woony wrote: This is EXACTLYYYY what people have complained about for months: Terran has too many openings. Now they do something about it and people cry about it. Blizzard knows: "What ever you do the result is QQ" So do you have some profound solution for terran as far as early pressure against zerg is concerned? Terran is basically forced to let zerg expand and do the same turtling until mid game. | ||
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disco
Netherlands1667 Posts
This is very stupid. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:55 Shikyo wrote: This is actually totally true, I think that the fac requirement is way overboard. If Roach really gets 4 range they will have no problems at all against Reapers even with speed. That's a bad change, really. Even with this change the Reapers could still try to sneak around and snipe some drones(just wouldn't be able to defeat the units that counter them in a straight-up fight...), which is what they're supposed to do. This way Reapers are completely dead... Which along with the supply depot requirement for Barracks means that 16-hatch(why do people say 14? it caps your larvae and is worse) will be pretty much impossible to stop. 1rax CC times incoming? Because 14 hatch gets your lings out in time to actually stop rushes? You'll have a hell of a hard time unless cross positions to stop a protoss 2gate or bunker rush by terran with 16 hatch 15 pool. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
1rax CC times incoming? Maybe, but its kinda crappy on maps with easily accessible golds as it just lets zerg take such an early third =( EDIT: Read it as no rax CC; but probably still true for 1 rax cc, although maybe slightly less. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:48 Obsolescence wrote: Nope, Jinro, I don't think they do. I keep seeing people making that assertion, which I assume means they never actually read the link. I read the link, however: They can't account for "player skill" ? This is not possible. Assume the game would be totally imba (which is not the case ofc.). The system would regard two players beeing "equally skilled" based on their past game results, so the imba bias is already "in the numbers" measuring "skill". It would be make more sense to do stats based on APM (ok, APM!=skill, but the correlation should be rather good). Another "real" balance measurement would be to compare of players switching their race. A Z switching to Terran will rise in the ladder, a Terran switching to Z will drop (this has been reported many times by different individuals). If i offrace terran against Z, i perform better (against Z, not P) without even knowing all the buildings and tec .. that's strange, isn't it ? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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gotterdammerung
Austria17 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:55 AveiMil wrote: Right, Terran rarely ever wins against Zerg in the mid/late game UNLESS Terran has harassed the Zerg's eco successfully early on. I watch the high level replays that come out with TvZ and they struggle with the same shit I do versus Zerg (obviously they're better, but so are their Zerg opponents). In short: Terran either wins the game early (by killing the Zerg off or hurting his eco BADLY) or Zerg wins later down the road. this is true against toss to.. basically with the tank nerf, they said screw it here your on your own with marauders, win the game now with these or lose later with these. I know that toss and zerg are both very bm in game, and usually when they lose they will say how terran is OP and then leave the game without a gg. these are the people who are loving the depot first nerf. | ||
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:57 Cink wrote: So do you have some profound solution for terran as far as early pressure against zerg is concerned? Terran is basically forced to let zerg expand and do the same turtling until mid game. I think when this patch comes out, the staple build will be reactor hellions into expansion, since you cant harrass any earlier. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:54 Xxio wrote: Depot before Barracks is too extreme, I think, but besides that, everything sounds really, really good. Reapers will still be used without speed because they are amazing at early game harass and scouting, especially if positions and build orders put the Terran in a favorable position. Now that I think about Depot before Barracks a bit more, it will take away some of the options for Terran, which is really why they are so strong. This will be a much more interesting patch than the last one. What? Reapers are terrible at early game harass without speed. They get shut down by a handful of speedlings instantly anywhere. Nobody used reapers beyond an initial possibly 1 before the speed cost buff. On October 08 2010 02:54 Woony wrote: This is EXACTLYYYY what people have complained about for months: Terran has too many openings. Now they do something about it and people cry about it. Blizzard knows: "What ever you do the result is QQ" These responses are really prevalent and really stupid. I'm not interested in having a race-war grudge match where Terran gets what's coming for some perceived imbalance, I want to have a balanced game. Terran has to be able to apply early pressure to Zerg in some fashion. If this is not possible and Zerg can freely drone, there are going to be huge balance issues. No Terran in the game can keep up with a competent macro player if they can't apply early pressure (see Fruitdealer vs ITR). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23464 Posts
On October 08 2010 02:50 gogogadgetflow wrote: This can't be real. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Pool now requires overlord kk. Assume this happened in BW. Gateways already require a pylon. It means suddenly jaedong doesn't have to worry about BBS any more. The question is, is 4 pool an equal alternative to bunker rushes? I don't think it is. I personally think that it wouldn't have a major effect in BW except for terran cheeses being weaker. It's the same here. Zerg's can hatch first every game now more or less, and TvT is suddenly less retarded with the autoloss to proxy barracks. I think its a decent change, but I think overlord requirement on pool going hand in hand would be reasonable, except zergs start with 1 overlord. lol. Totally trollface right now. I honestly read the roach range increase and assumed they were fake notes. Now basically hellions and reapers don't need a perfect defense any more, which I suppose isn't unreasonable. Hellions will still be viable due to drone roasting. Reapers are by design a terrible unit, good at a small window against zerg, or very very early against P/T. Perhaps they will find a niche by someone but I can't really see it, hellions are just too good in comparison. I didn't see the sense in roaches being soft countered by hellions and reapers before speed I suppose, but it just meant zergs needed to play decently to defend. Every T will go back to opening hellions or something really risky now. | ||
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MagisterMan
Sweden525 Posts
The zerg changes are good though.  | ||
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