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Osaka27154 Posts
On April 13 2007 23:21 bine wrote:
Well I guess coolness and machismo trump integrity once again :/
Actually they were answers to generally sinple questions. Im dissapointed you didnt give them any thought and simply wrote them off. I didnt think they needed elaboration, but here you go.
1. Using the N word to be offensive is not acceptable. Using it to inflict pain is not acceptable, and using it to stir up violence is not aceptable. However, there is a long history or precedence of people using that word to be funny. Many of our best loved comedans have used it that way. Of course, they are quite talented, because funny is in the eye of the beholder, which of course is the difference between michael richards and chris rock.
2. Generally offensive jokes are not used in public. However, this site is not the public. Google is, and wikipedia is, but this isnt.
Again, this is all about context. In a thread involving a racial discussion, there is going to be a lot more leniency than an unrelated thread. A lot of that trolling was to argue a point. If someone in the strategy forum posts "get a white oveseer and those nigger scv will mine faster" yeah they get no slack because it isnt funny or in context.
To simply ban people for a word, not taking the context into consideration, is not appropriate. There are probably some people that went over the line in that thread, but how many hairs make a beard?
3. You vote with your feet. Dont like the behaviour of a mod? Talk to the mod. Getting no where? Drop it or get out. Mods have no responsibility to make you feel comfortable. There is no ombudsman at TL.
4. Some people see what they think is injustice and walk away. Others try to make a difference. Maybe you are another Martin Luther King. He fought for very unpopular causes. It all depends on what kind of person you are.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 14 2007 00:31 Beyonder wrote:Ignore the ones who can't do anything but insult, for they are not worth the time nor effort. Steve just had a rough childhood. There's nothing wrong with discussing, as long as you're open to what people have to say. 
you're as stupid and socially inept as he is. you're fucking nuts if you think i'm going to put up with any sass from a shithead like you
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
Socially inept? Stupid? Oh the hilarity. Is this what they call mirroring? -_- Maybe you should use some more curse words to be badass, because this doesnt seem to be working
Too bad your post ratio averages 250 bad posts to 1 funny post. Guess we got something to look forward to in 24 days.
Anyway, not derailing thread any further, I'm off to the beach!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
as long as retards like you think my posts are bad i can be assured i'm doing something right
fuck yourself you pigheaded halfwit
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I have to post here now, despite the likely case that FakeSteve will be all over me for this with his cool, oh-so-moderate, curse-free posting style. I don't give a fuck, so don't try.
I basically agree with bine, though I have to say he took some things out of context and overreacted a few times.
What Mani said is a good compromise in my eyes, but I think there should be a small general guideline about this, maybe a one-liner in the new sticky in the general forum, just so anybody knows what's going on.
Whenever there was a problem that was severe enough to require being handled by moderators, there has been a special thread and general discussion about it, see Homework Threads and the like.
It's no big deal after all, but I personally think people have to be told when - in general, no whole novel about when to use the N word or any other racist remark or when not to do - such things are appropriate. I myself have been using that word once or twice in one of my countless attempts to appear as a funny guy, but I will refrain to do that from now on. That's my small part.
We can still have fun without randomly offending minorities, right?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Belgium8305 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
bine I think your message is important and valid. Admins here began by telling you "take it easy" and you pointed out it is them who need some sort of consistency on this matter. I agree. Sometimes admins smash racist remarks, hell its even in the 10 commandments. And other times they laugh at it and dont care at all. That is bad. I addition, you obviously care for TL.net, I think that is admirable (fuck I cannot spell this morning), dont become an activist but try and represent your cause as you have and do not slink to steve's low.
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is awesome32277 Posts
On April 14 2007 07:11 vGl-CoW wrote:
as a black person,
hahahah
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Why does no one address the fact that it's not the word that matters, but the intent behind it?
Edit: I somehow missed Manifesto's post at the top of page, so yeah. I didn't read before I said this, don't kill me.
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On April 14 2007 08:39 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
bine I think your message is important and valid. Admins here began by telling you "take it easy" and you pointed out it is them who need some sort of consistency on this matter. I agree. Sometimes admins smash racist remarks, hell its even in the 10 commandments. And other times they laugh at it and dont care at all. That is bad. I addition, you obviously care for TL.net, I think that is admirable (fuck I cannot spell this morning), dont become an activist but try and represent your cause as you have and do not slink to steve's low.
yea man steve went overboard a bit there O.o
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i think of it like someone said above...it can be humorous, just as comedians use it. if youre not using it in a derogatory manner to delibarately piss soemoen off, then i see no harm. its pretty easy to distinguish someone being racist and someone joking around. ive got plenty of black friends who we joke around with like that.
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I think the best way to look at this is this: Teamliquid is like an eHouse, a place where you can visit as guests, and where the moderators are the household members. As such, the rules obviously swing in their favor, so there's no real "injustice" because this site is within their realm; they control the rules here. This is a PRIVATE site.
Now, the great thing about this eHouse is that the members try to be as fair and rational to everyone, and try to be considerate to all. This debate here about racism is within the area of one's discretion, but mostly from the moderators; no FBI members will bash into the house of perpatrators because again, this site is private.
EDIT: To be actually on topic:
Idealistically, I agree with you. Then again, ideally, mankind should follow the 10 commandments.
In reality, though, people will cuss, fuss, and wreak bloody hell when they are in that "troll" form. In the general sense, an online community is a great place to speak freely generally without worrying about such things as stereotypes or appearances. As such, the "n" word would be expected more occasionally. In this sense, I agree with Fakesteve.
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bad thread, you just have to be looking for attention to make a thread like this, no other explanation
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Yeah we are attention whores for addressing controverse topics that may be ignored by most.
We are craving for flames and examples for more ignorance than has been given before already.
Shut up.
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I realize you probably don't care bine, but I'm going to add my 2 cents:
If you truly care this much about racism and the "wrongs" that you feel black people have to withstand, then you should find someway in real life to get your point across. Writing up something on an internet forum is simply not going to get your point across.
On a side note: why do you feel so compelled to speak out this strongly to fight racism? Only because of the moral values that go along beside it? Do you feel this strongly about other situations such as homelessness and lack of education? I don't know...I just think that one should pick their battles and this one is not the best one to pick.
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Believe me, this isn't the only place I've had these sorts of conversations. I guess my investment in racism is partly ideological and partly because I know some extremely wonderful african americans who have spent a great deal of time talking to me about these things. My best friend from high school is black, and we went to a school where this sort of thing was extremely prevalent. I feel like it's a battle I can pick because I happen to have spent a lot of time reading about it and talking about it, going to conferences, stuff like that. And this isn't the only battle I pick (though it's certainly the first time I've really advocated anything like this on tl.net, which apparently isn't such a swell idea) in my larger life, it is one that I feel relatively comfortable picking. I would know less, for example, about the issues surrounding inter-Asian relations (ie. Korea/Japan/China) or about contemporary Nazism and post-war issues in Germany. I've been thinking about it on tl.net for awhile, but I haven't really wanted to bring it up beyond saying "please don't say the N word" whenever people do so in a racist context. But when it gets to the point that absurd confusion about race relations is commingling with racist humor, I feel like it's worth alienating myself somewhat in the off chance that some heightened sensitivity will result.
If you think I want this kind of attention, you're out of your mind 
It's so much easier to not say anything, as ETT pointed out. The entrenched sensibilities here aren't shocking, although I had hoped they weren't the way they apparently are. But I still would have felt like a schmuck if I hadn't said anything. Again, I regret the thread title and I cringe when I look at it :/
As to the "this is a private site so suck it and don't ever speak your mind" argument, I think what I did is mostly appropriate. I'm not pretending like this is my website, or a government website, or anything like that, and I'm not making demands or leveraging some imaginary power. I'm just heatedly trying to make an argument in the hopes that people will think about it. After all, this is the "Website Feedback" forum. If people weren't supposed to share how they feel about the site and suggest change, what's the point of having it? I have no illusions about my ability to demand change, and I certainly don't expect anything to be done that the administrators don't agree with.
Again, this notion of my thinking anyone has a responsibility to me is beside the point, and I don't mean to imply that I think anyone does. In asking the questions I'm asking, I don't think I'm anywhere suggesting that moderators have an innate responsibility to every member of the site or myself. I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting and asking what I'm asking, but I don't do so out of an expectation that things will change. No mods have a responsibility to do what I say, but if I was a member of the staff I would want to know when people are uncomfortable with the behavior of someone else on the staff. The idea that the only person it's appropriate to contact is the person you are uncomfortable with just doesn't make any sense. The mods that tend to be offensive obviously aren't the ones that would be receptive to such remarks. I think some other recourse is important (which isn't to say that I think that anyone has an absolute responsibility to do it, or that I'm demanding it happen immediately, or that I think that it should happen just because I say so). Any other policy suggests that the staff is somehow infallible, which obviously isn't the case.
On humor: if there was a grain of insight or surprise or real humor in anything said here using the N word, I wouldn't object. But since the would-be comedians here are neither black or insightful. I think that when the humor rests solely on the objectionable nature of the word and the childish testing of its use, it's pretty conspicuously indefensible. People aren't making sophisticated jokes about the N word. They're just attaching "nigga" to the end of sentences arbitrarily.
This site is public because anyone can read it. Although it's privately held and moderated, it's not privately viewed. In the same way I shouldn't put up a sign in my front yard that says "All black women have annoying voices," I probably shouldn't do so in a highly trafficked message board. This site isn't publicly owned, and doesn't profess to be in the public service, but it IS still a public presentation, as it can be accessed by anyone.
I went to great lengths to specify that I DON'T think anyone should be banned immediately just for using the N word. There are obviously appropriate uses of it and inappropriate ones. I think the main point of contention here involves the benefits and harms of the word's frivolous use. To suggest that only people who say the N word maliciously are guilty of racism denies the existence of non-overt racism. Making the N word part of the every day vocabulary of white people, erasing the pause before its use that so many people have worked so hard to construct, is still doing grave harm to black people, because it allows people who really do have racist feelings to give themselves permission to act on them. Again, even if I think it's just factual truth and am not trying to deal damage to anyone, saying "All niggers smell bad" is incredibly ignorant and disgusting, and still clearly racist. Intentions are not really a consideration, and are impossible to judge. Who are any of us to claim to know the intentions of someone sitting at their computer? Even if they're just trying to be funny, their remarks still have the same effect, and still create an environment that ultimately is damaging to the cause of equality and civility.
This whole "like everything about this place or gtfo" attitude is exactly like my high school. As I said then and will say now, just because I dislike one aspect of the things that go on here doesn't mean I don't love it here. If the choice is between tl.net with the N word and no tl.net, I'll still choose tl.net. But precisely because I love this place so much, I feel an obligation to treat it with respect. If I thought of tl.net as just some random shitty forum where no one cares, I wouldn't bother to say anything. This place is incredibly unique, and part of the reason it is so is essentially tied to the moderating staff, which is of unparalleled quality. Even rek, though I disagree with him on this issue, is an adept moderator and a good guy. I don't want to give the impression that I'm anything less than awed by tl.net and its staff in most respects. Wishing that it was a bit more sensitive and a bit less like a fraternity doesn't mean that I think you guys are doing a bad job.
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I haven't read through your entire argument, but I did notice the part in retaliation to my post. "this is a private site so suck it and don't ever speak your mind"
Never have I said that. Now you're putting words into my mouth. I only suggested that TRUE, you can try talking to people about it like you're doing now, but I believe the best way to have done it is to pm the right moderators. They are the ones who are running this site, after all. You didn't have to create a full thread about it, at least without what I just suggested. Think about it: what did you accomplish so far? You've done nothign but cause chaos on both sides of the argument and get Fakesteve temp-banned.
I respect the fact that you want the world to be a more harmonious place in terms of racial tributes. What I cannot stand, however, is the methods you're employing to get them accomplished. Also, if I look at some of the things you've said such as "Teamliquid hostile to minorities?" (labelling), the free use of "white boy" (labelling again), then relating this place to your supposedly immature high school and a fraternity (labelled once more), I get the underwhelming feeling that you need to look at yourself first.
Reconsider your position, get your head straight, then feel free to respond, if you dare to continue arguing with me.
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Braavos36379 Posts
uh, its a discussion forum. while the title of his thread could be reconsidered, i really don't see whats wrong with this topic being discussed in "website feedback."
did you read what "got steve banned"? it was 100% fakesteves own fault, blaming it on bine who didn't even instigate anything vs steve is ridiculous. in general i think, while i don't necessarily agree with everything bine had to say, the topic was worth discussing and bine himself was far more open to other opinions and true discussion than some of the people flaming him in this thread (cough steve).
and "if you dare continue arguing with me"? grow up
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EPT
