This is a terrible embarrassment for our community. An intense conversation in which many people were profoundly ignorant but still within the realm of tolerable evolved into childish spewing of hateful language for the sake of showing how manly teenagers can be on the internet. I think tl.net needs to clarify its position on inflammatory hate speech, especially when a precedent has been set as far as banning people for inappropriate and disgusting posts.
I think it's important to be consistent, not just banning people for some disgusting things while chuckling in response to others. When a member of the staff repeatedly uses the N word and claims that it might be legitimate to "hate all black girls" because they have "loud, shreeky voices", participating in the same bullshit macho racist crap as the wayward children, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated. Please, someone clarify tl.net's position on this and please, start enforcing it.
Absolutely not. First of all, some racism is contextual, but there are also some things that, whether you understand it or not, are just about always racist. Unless you're using the term in reference to it as a word or for some other academic purpose, the N word is just not something that you should say, even on an anonymous forum. Although it's casual and silly to you, the casual use of that word results in a great deal of harm for an entire population of people. Whether or not you realize it, many people who read these forums look up to the people who post here, especially children, and they may not be able to tell the difference between your ultra-sophisticated humor and casual familiarity with the N word (I'm not sure I can distinguish myself). The casual use of the N word and the casual conversation of black people as an other can and will make people think of them that way, whether the apparent racists on tl.net are "just pretending" or whatever. It's absolutely inexcusable, no matter how frivolous of a person you are and no matter how much you try to confuse arguments with vague bullshit about context and deny absolutely ubiquitous agreement by an entire planet of civilized adults.
the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
i really tried to stay away from that thread but theres so much ignorance and close-mindedness that i just had to say something despite completely regretting it now.
the problem is that the mods should not have a political position, it's not their job to be activists or have an agenda about race.
however, i would appreciate stricter enforcement of very clear, deliberate racism (not just ignorance or misunderstanding) or racist trolling attempts.
On April 12 2007 16:30 bine wrote: Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated.
What you wrote there is racist itself. For someone ranting about the immaturity of teens trying to sound macho, you would do well to follow your own advice.
I think we have to ask ourselves what do we lose from disallowing overt racism? Are anyone's "omg what a NIGGA" jokes funny? What positive reason do we have to keep such comments here when they effectively make our site inaccessible to to black people and, in the end, most educated adults?
Not comforting open racism is not a political act. It's been ubiquitously accepted by literally EVERYONE at all informed about the issue. There has never been a single conference or debate that I've ever heard of since the 1960's has concluded that racism is a completely subjective, wishy-washy issue that can be avoided by making it seem like being neutral on the matter is anything other than regarding racism as reprehensible.
On April 12 2007 16:30 bine wrote: Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated.
What you wrote there is racist itself. For someone ranting about the immaturity of teens trying to sound macho, you would do well to follow your own advice.
First of all, it's virtually impossible to be racist against a white person, at least in contemporary America. It just doesn't make any sense. First of all, I am a young white man. Second of all, if the people I'm speaking about WEREN'T white, I would not be able to chastise them for saying the N word.
I'm not ranting and I'm certainly not interested in being macho. Again, simply trying to distract and confuse the issue by pretending like me saying "white" is racist. My point was and is that young white men giving themselves permission to be racist in spite of widespread condemnation of such actions is slimy and gross.
its far from impossible to be racist against a white person ive been laughed at taunted mocked threatened for being white. so that's just flat out wrong
Why wouldn't you be able to chastise anyone but a white person for saying nigger?
It's the internet. People are going to either be who they really are, no holes barred because they have nothing to lose, or act like jackasses.
I have no patience to go read through that entire thread because there are racists, inherently ignorant, but then the other side for a large portion of the people are just as annoying. Welcome to the internet, welcome to human beings. I'm going to assume most of the people there didn't have the intention to come off as full out racists, which i consider to be the most important thing. Again, only because this is the internet where anything goes.
People might have been mean to you because you are white, but it's really difficult to call it "racism." Racism usually implies a sense of one race being dominant over another, which implies a sense of racial superiority. Black people treating you badly because you are white is what's called "reverse racism," a reaction against pervasive racism that, though extremely negative and unjustified, is largely defensive. It's possible for people to mistreat white people on the basis of racial prejudice, but it isn't "racism" and, though unfortunate, isn't widespread enough to justify altering our feelings about pervasive racism.
You're right, it's the internet. But it's the moderated internet. If we were to set our standards based on internet norms, unlabeled hardcore porn, incessant, mindless flaming and trolling, giant photos of people pooping all over each other and fisting and other gag images would be everywhere. Just because people are comfortable being racist on the internet doesn't mean that they aren't doing something wrong. Also, I don't understand why the most important thing is making sure people aren't "full out racists." Even someone with a decent understanding of black people, who doesn't consciously think less of them, does them a disservice by casually mocking them or using racist language, because they basically enable racist perceptions and practices and make it more difficult to deal with actual racists. If it's the internet, and many people are casually throwing around the N word, does it really make a difference who's a "full out racist" and who isn't?
On April 12 2007 17:28 Gene wrote: its far from impossible to be racist against a white person ive been laughed at taunted mocked threatened for being white. so that's just flat out wrong
um it just sounds like some people made fun of you dude, which can happen to anyone for any reason, i really really doubt you've experienced true racism and prejudice in the united states as a white person
i understand your concern of the use of nigger, but the hell you cant be racist against white people. what do you call some black dudes fucking with you for no other reason cuz your a 'white boy'? thats not racism? try walking into the ghetto of newark or camden and tell me you wont get fucked with cuz ur white. people will straight come to your face and say it to you. theres been plenty of incidents of kids gettin jumped at colleges in newark simply for being white and in the wrong neighborhood.
when you're walking down the street and get threatened by a group of black guys, that's a step passed being made fun of. trying to say its "defensive" is the most ludicrous double standard. but that wasnt so much the point.
and it also wasnt my point, or what i said, that you need to be "full out racist." my point was (and im still guessing) that they didnt INTEND to be racists. You're going to say "but the evidence is in the NIGGER ing" no its not. Most of the people on this website are 13-19. Saying nigger a few times isnt meant to be racist. What i was trying to gloss over was my opinion that you're blowing something out of proportion.
For a little clarification, im completely opposed to racism from anyone towards anyone, but like ive said before, when shit is taken out of context and out of proportion, its not racism. Guess i'll read that thread now.
Edit: And you have quite a strange view of racism. Trying to work slavery into it is a farce so long as you're not talking about some redneck hick from the south. But if you want me to post that in that thread to have that debate all over again i will, i dont want to derail your thread
The problem is, there is no such thing as "white people".
I'm white, I'm also Serbian. You think I didn't feel the backlash when I was in highschool during the Kosovo bombing campaigns? Having to put up with racist shit talking that was totally acceptable just because Serbs had apparently become the new kicking bags of the US. They even started making the bad guys in action movies Serbian, like they did with Russians during the cold war.
Fucking stupid shit.
So yes, you can feel racism as a white person, because there is no such thing as white. Everyone who is caucasian in appearance is something else entirely ethnically.
Well, I certainly didn't mean to distract from the larger issue with my impossibly minor remark about the fact that white people technically can't have racism perpetrated against them, and Gene, as is evident in my remarks on the subject, I don't mean to lesson anything that happened to you. It was both defensive and totally unacceptable and wrong. Just because it isn't really racism doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Mana, I guess when we say "white", at least in America, we mean ethnically ambiguous people of white skin. I don't really have a distinct ethnicity. Again, I think that white people can suffer from prejudice, and that bad things happen to people with light skin, often because they have light skin. But it's not racism because it isn't being perpetrated from the perspective of a race that claims to be dominant. Think of it this way: a scared, pissed off cat scratches a benign human who doesn't mean them any harm because they've been abused by humans all their life vs. a giant lion attacking a human that it doesn't even want to eat just because it can and is higher on the food chain. Both are counterproductive, violent, unnecessary and wrong, but maybe one is slightly more understandable than another one. Again, I'm not excusing or downplaying anything that's happened to you guys personally. But it's just not the same.
Maybe where you are people recognize you visibly as Serbian, but at least everywhere that I've lived, even ethnically "clear" light-skinned people don't have to deal with their ethnicity every day unless they want to, because no one can tell who they are. Black people have to think about and deal with the fact that they are black every second of every day. I'm gay and an atheist, and if I wore that on a t-shirt I'd probably field some shit too. But I don't have to if I don't want to, I can blend in. Black people can't blend in, they have to be talked down to and harassed constantly. They have to have trouble getting apartments, getting jobs, dealing with overt and covert racism constantly. As much as I sympathize with anyone who gets picked on, especially unjustly, it just isn't the same
Being Asian, I can appreciate that there is a bit of racism against me, but I would never come close to placing it on the same level as the institutionalized racism that our society thinks has been cured. A guy with a name John Chang has about the same chances at a job as John Smith, and both have a a much easier time getting a job than La'Nyia Williams or something like that.
On April 12 2007 19:40 bine wrote: Well, I certainly didn't mean to distract from the larger issue with my impossibly minor remark about the fact that white people technically can't have racism perpetrated against them, and Gene, as is evident in my remarks on the subject, I don't mean to lesson anything that happened to you. It was both defensive and totally unacceptable and wrong. Just because it isn't really racism doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Mana, I guess when we say "white", at least in America, we mean ethnically ambiguous people of white skin. I don't really have a distinct ethnicity. Again, I think that white people can suffer from prejudice, and that bad things happen to people with light skin, often because they have light skin. But it's not racism because it isn't being perpetrated from the perspective of a race that claims to be dominant. Think of it this way: a scared, pissed off cat scratches a benign human who doesn't mean them any harm because they've been abused by humans all their life vs. a giant lion attacking a human that it doesn't even want to eat just because it can and is higher on the food chain. Both are counterproductive, violent, unnecessary and wrong, but maybe one is slightly more understandable than another one. Again, I'm not excusing or downplaying anything that's happened to you guys personally. But it's just not the same.
Maybe where you are people recognize you visibly as Serbian, but at least everywhere that I've lived, even ethnically "clear" light-skinned people don't have to deal with their ethnicity every day unless they want to, because no one can tell who they are. Black people have to think about and deal with the fact that they are black every second of every day. I'm gay and an atheist, and if I wore that on a t-shirt I'd probably field some shit too. But I don't have to if I don't want to, I can blend in. Black people can't blend in, they have to be talked down to and harassed constantly. They have to have trouble getting apartments, getting jobs, dealing with overt and covert racism constantly. As much as I sympathize with anyone who gets picked on, especially unjustly, it just isn't the same
On April 12 2007 17:02 Hot_Bid wrote: the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
it's absolutely dismissable
stuff like this is common sense among civilized folk and anyone who doesn't fit that profile is gone. its his problem if he doesn't have that common sense, regardless of which side of the fence he's on
On April 12 2007 17:02 Hot_Bid wrote: the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
it's absolutely dismissable
stuff like this is common sense among civilized folk and anyone who doesn't fit that profile is gone. its his problem if he doesn't have that common sense, regardless of which side of the fence he's on
you seem like a decent guy but you have no idea what you're talking about claiming that agreeing with you is common sense is just as insubstantial as claiming that context makes everything subjective. If you have an opinion, formulate it and offer it to us. I have as much common sense as any of us, and I have thought about, researched, spoken about and written about these issues a fair amount. It might be my problem and it might not. One thing's for sure, it's not your problem because you can just jerk off and forget about it. You might not give a fuck, but it still sucks for a whole lot of people whether you take them seriously as a people or not.
Stop being a bleeding heart. This isn't racism per se, it's just people making (poor in some cases) jokes. They aren't trying to offend black people or prove their white supremacy.
When I watch Dave Chapelle rip on white people, I laugh. It's funny. Sure he's picking on my race and making a joke about it, but you have to take things in the context they are presented to you.
On April 12 2007 22:22 RowdierBob wrote: When I watch Dave Chapelle rip on white people, I laugh. It's funny. Sure he's picking on my race and making a joke about it, but you have to take things in the context they are presented to you.
Yet others might not think the same way when the roles are reversed and you have a couple hundred years of history against you. Maybe that's actually a legitimate position to take, and that given that you have no experience living as a minority you probably ought to defer and not respond to every accusation of racism with "just chill out man"?
On April 12 2007 17:02 Hot_Bid wrote: the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
it's absolutely dismissable
stuff like this is common sense among civilized folk and anyone who doesn't fit that profile is gone. its his problem if he doesn't have that common sense, regardless of which side of the fence he's on
Honestly, we haven't magically cured racism in this country, contrary to popular belief. Subconscious biases and prejudices lead to things like otherwise identical resumes getting 50% more callbacks when they are from "Greg" instead of "Kareem", despite those very same employers saying they need more qualified minorities and are "aggressively seeking diversity". It's not even conscious racism, they're explicitly trying to recruit more minorities, but prejudices and biases continue to betray them.
On April 12 2007 19:40 bine wrote: Maybe where you are people recognize you visibly as Serbian, but at least everywhere that I've lived, even ethnically "clear" light-skinned people don't have to deal with their ethnicity every day unless they want to, because no one can tell who they are.
True to an extent, until they hear my last name. There's still a large degree of visibility due to that.
In anycase I see your point. I realize my comment pertained to a side arguement and not what you're talking about specifically.
In terms of the main arguement here I would say that there is a line that needs to be understood. I am personally very unsympathetic to people who lack a thick skin for insults/off hand comments, etc. However, there is obviously a point where people's behavior goes too far.
I avoided that thread because I saw it going in that direction. However, I feel we are pretty good around here in general, without any more policing than we already have. (Which is pretty hardcore compared to most other online forums)
On April 12 2007 17:02 Hot_Bid wrote: the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
it's absolutely dismissable
stuff like this is common sense among civilized folk and anyone who doesn't fit that profile is gone. its his problem if he doesn't have that common sense, regardless of which side of the fence he's on
Honestly, we haven't magically cured racism in this country, contrary to popular belief. Subconscious biases and prejudices lead to things like otherwise identical resumes getting 50% more callbacks when they are from "Greg" instead of "Kareem", despite those very same employers saying they need more qualified minorities and are "aggressively seeking diversity". It's not even conscious racism, they're explicitly trying to recruit more minorities, but prejudices and biases continue to betray them.
We're getting into a lot of deep societal issues here... and I have no idea what this has to do with a bunch of kids saying the n word on an internet forum.
Anyone care to give context to this thread again? Personally it's starting to sound like nothing but a bunch of whining, my posts included.
This is a terrible embarrassment for our community. An intense conversation in which many people were profoundly ignorant but still within the realm of tolerable evolved into childish spewing of hateful language for the sake of showing how manly teenagers can be on the internet. I think tl.net needs to clarify its position on inflammatory hate speech, especially when a precedent has been set as far as banning people for inappropriate and disgusting posts.
I think it's important to be consistent, not just banning people for some disgusting things while chuckling in response to others. When a member of the staff repeatedly uses the N word and claims that it might be legitimate to "hate all black girls" because they have "loud, shreeky voices", participating in the same bullshit macho racist crap as the wayward children, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated. Please, someone clarify tl.net's position on this and please, start enforcing it.
You take this place way too fucking seriously. When I start seeing a paycheque, you will start seeing sensitivity commitees on posting behaviour.
While I dont agree with everything posted in that thread, it was hardly an "embarassment on our community". If you take offense to it, I suggest you stay out of the general section and stick to starcraft. I also suggest you do not make threads with titles that insinuate 25k members are racist.
See, I did that whole thing without calling you a faggot too. We are tolerant.
holy shit. stop being a fucking bleeding heart. how the fuck are you gonna tell me that black people fucking with a white kid for no other reason cuz they are white isnt racism? regardless of the history between blacks and whites, it doesnt fucking make it right. thats the most god damned stupid thing ive ever heard.
This is a terrible embarrassment for our community. An intense conversation in which many people were profoundly ignorant but still within the realm of tolerable evolved into childish spewing of hateful language for the sake of showing how manly teenagers can be on the internet. I think tl.net needs to clarify its position on inflammatory hate speech, especially when a precedent has been set as far as banning people for inappropriate and disgusting posts.
I think it's important to be consistent, not just banning people for some disgusting things while chuckling in response to others. When a member of the staff repeatedly uses the N word and claims that it might be legitimate to "hate all black girls" because they have "loud, shreeky voices", participating in the same bullshit macho racist crap as the wayward children, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated. Please, someone clarify tl.net's position on this and please, start enforcing it.
You take this place way too fucking seriously. When I start seeing a paycheque, you will start seeing sensitivity commitees on posting behaviour.
While I dont agree with everything posted in that thread, it was hardly an "embarassment on our community". If you take offense to it, I suggest you stay out of the general section and stick to starcraft. I also suggest you do not make threads with titles that insinuate 25k members are racist.
See, I did that whole thing without calling you a faggot too. We are tolerant.
This is a major disappointment, willingly missing the point and ignoring something that's pretty much required of any hope to be consistent as moderators. No one ever calls me a faggot here, that's not the point. It's not an embarrassment because I take offense. It's an embarrassment because the mod staff alternates so frivolously between hyper-intense-serious-righteous-moral face, macho-ban-cause-i'm-drunk face, and whatever-i'm-too-cool-to-care face, and the result is an a situation where only groups that are around to defend themselves get any sort of just treatment. I care about team liquid, because I spend a lot of time here. I care about team liquid people being racist because they are real people, and their attitudes are doing real harm to real people. I've never bought this "shut up, it's not that serious" bullshit my entire life, and I'm certainly not going to start now. This is a perfectly valid piece of "feedback," and I'm making an effort to handle it articulately and resolutely, and though I'm largely on the defensive against just about every badass personality in the entire community, I have faith that there are reasonable people that support some of the things I'm saying and are just too intimidated by the powers that be apparently being grumpy about this issue today. I have to go, but maybe when I get back I'll be less dejected and say something more.
And I'm not accusing anyone of being racist. Again, it's not a subjective term.
edit: I misread part of the quoted post. The thread title doesn't imply that I think everyone on tl.net is a racist. Though it may be too strong, it implies that the site as an organization is permitting conditions that make the site hostile to minorities, which I believe it sometimes is, as in the thread in question. Some black people would feel quite unwelcome reading some of the posts in that thread.
I think we have to ask ourselves what do we lose from disallowing overt racism? Are anyone's "omg what a NIGGA" jokes funny? What positive reason do we have to keep such comments here when they effectively make our site inaccessible to to black people and, in the end, most educated adults?
It's not racism that makes our site inaccessible to black people, but the lack of internet access in Africa.
In seriousness, I agree that such expressions are unfunny, but that is because they are uninteresting, and contain no conviction or thought. A racist with a theoretical approach, that is to say, a real racist might give better contributions.
I think we have to ask ourselves what do we lose from disallowing overt racism? Are anyone's "omg what a NIGGA" jokes funny? What positive reason do we have to keep such comments here when they effectively make our site inaccessible to to black people and, in the end, most educated adults?
It's not racism that makes our site inaccessible to black people, but the lack of internet access in Africa.
In seriousness, I agree that such expressions are unfunny, but that is because they are uninteresting, and contain no conviction or thought. A racist with a theoretical approach, that is to say, a real racist might give better contributions.
You forgot to mention your theory on how everyone that lives between the tropics is stupid.
On April 13 2007 10:59 bine wrote: And if I actually believed that garbage about ignoring naked prejudice because someone has 25k posts (omg!), I think I'd be taking this place too seriously.
Just to nitpick, Mani said 25k users, he's refering to you collectively calling every single person on TL.net a racist.
Personally - I was immediately put off by the title of your thread more than anything else. The implications of "Teamliquid hostile to minorities?" pretty much threw away any credibility you had in my eyes. But, to be fair, I did read through the thread in question (which I previously hadn't even glanced at [minus the first page] before you pointed it out), and I saw nothing that constitutes an 'embarassment for our community'. What I saw was a combination of people trying to have an actual discussion, sprinkled with a few people going for cheap laughs and knee-jerk reaction trolling attempts. People acting immature on teh internetz?!? OH EM GEEE!! Were there any genuine, direct racist comments? No. I think it should be common sense that any ***real*** examples of racism would not be tolerated by us, and I'm a bit insulted that you would think otherwise, you give us no credit.
I don't think you can honestly expect to survive in a conversation about racism online if you're going to be so overly sensative. What did you honestly expect was going to happen when you tell someone "Please don't say the N word."? You've been here long enough to know that you're going to get trolled with a comment like that, and you should handle the trolling comments on this issue like any other thread you find, just ignore them; otherwise, you're giving the troll exactly what they want. Internet psychology 101 dude.
On April 13 2007 13:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: bine you are seriously some sort of idiot
This is such a conspicuously worthless thing to say. It's not even pointing at anything or making any statements about anything I've said. It's vomit; I'm not claiming to be the most intelligent person on the planet, but I refuse to accept that a legitimate criticism can be dismantled by jocky humor and self congratulatory dismissal.
So far, very few people have addressed any of the substantive things I've had to say, and those that have argue that I either care too much (which is a totally ridiculous non-statement, especially coming from one of the driving forces of the site. Is it really your intention to say that you hope people don't care about the site?) or that somehow people saying racist things isn't really racist, or wasn't intended to be racist, or isn't "full out" racist, or that it doesn't matter because they aren't saying the racist things directly to black people (although they are saying them in public ), or that they aren't really racist because they phrased their cutting insult as a question. The implication that ANYONE would be justified for "hating" all black women because of an absolutely false stereotype about their voices (some of the most beautiful voices in the world belong to black women) is offensive, whether it's phrased as a question or not.
Chibi was banned because he consistently made inappropriate comments consistently, and wouldn't stop when asked. I'm not saying using the N word or making a racist joke about black people should be an instant ban or something, but that the expectation should be that it's unacceptable and that it should at least result in a warning.
If you don't think that thread was an embarrassment, then I guess you don't expect that many educated people read team liquid. Even racist right wing psychos would stop their friends from saying many of the things said in that thread. 8882 was warned and temp banned for using the N word before Rekrul made it fashionable. Just because you guise something in humor doesn't change its content.
ETT: I understand what you mean and if I could edit the title I would. It sounds "punchy" in a way I didn't intend. But I'm not being sensitive; I'm not talking about how I'm personally offended, and that's not the basis of any of my arguments. Insulting people who aren't around is deplorable whether you're offended by it or not. Again, there's nothing subjective about it.
The dilemma for me is that since it's not insulting me, I'm not ethically justified in just choosing to ignore it. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any people of African decent here that feel up to dealing with this shitstorm of ignorance and politics, but the things going on and the casualness with which racist comments are being slung requires me to say something. I can't just ignore it (although granted, in the short term, it might result in a few less racist comments), because the people it's insulting aren't here to speak for themselves, and because these attitudes are harmful even if they aren't directed at the people they're mocking.
This is embarrassing:
If you hate all black girls but like black guys but you like white girls and white guys are you a racist or a sexist or both?
Or do you just hate loud skreeky voices?
As is this:
oh i forgot to say it, nigger.
(and all of the other trolling opportunists doing similar things to the second)
But even aside from that thread, people consistently use the N word in jest here and it's ignored. You can tell from some of the responses to this thread, too, that people take this subject incredibly lightly.
I can understand how I might seem to be overreacting or blowing things out of proportion. But you have to understand that this feels incredibly insurmountable; again, I regret the tone of the thread title, but at the time I felt, and still feel, like nothing I can say can change the pervasive slackness with regard to these issues. But I still feel an obligation to bring it up, even though it feels like shooting myself in the foot. If I didn't say anything, I would feel like an asshole.
On April 13 2007 21:43 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i refuse to believe that anyone besides an idiot can accept your criticism as legitimate
do you really want to go this direction with me
What are you talking about? I'm not interested in having a conflict with you personally, again, you seem like a decent guy. But your posts are incredibly personally insulting to me without being at all productive in terms of the discussion. What about my criticism requires that only idiots can agree with it?
I'm not interested in what's wrong with me personally, or how uncool it seems to bring this up, or how lame a subject it is, or how emphatic it's appropriate for me to be. Just excuse my obvious inability to be impressive and aloof enough to navigate internet subculture and address the substance of this conversation, please.
On April 13 2007 22:19 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: and chibi was banned because he was constantly the center of controversy and thread derailment, don't talk about stuff you don't know about
I'm not. There was a huge thread about it that explained that the controversial things he was doing involved the content of his posts. It's conspicuously analogous; if someone consistently makes racially insensitive posts, they should be warned just like Chibi probably was the first 1000 times. In other words, you could reframe the debate we're having as being about whether or not racist jokes are controversial.
On April 13 2007 22:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i'm trying to convey the message to you that there is no discussion
two mods have basically told you to go fuck yourself and you still want to have a grand debate about it
Just because there isn't a discussion doesn't mean I can't continue trying to ignite one. I'm not oblivious to the fact that people are dismissing me, and I don't think that any of this is grand. But just because people are ignoring my argument doesn't mean that the imperative to bring up this issue subsides at all.
On April 13 2007 22:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: seriously you are in a vast minority here if i type the word nigger just now like this:
nigger
and you are offended by it
I'm not offended by that at all. It was obviously referencing the word nigger and using it as an example. The problem isn't just typing out the word, the problem is using it casually as something funny to say, as if its inappropriateness makes it funny.
2. Are jokes which would be offensive if said in front of a particular group of people offensive when said in public? Are they appropriate for this site?
3. What recourse to do concerned members have if they find behavior by a member of the mod staff to be inappropriate?
4. If you know your feelings about something is unpopular, should you always refrain from arguing for it?
On April 13 2007 23:21 bine wrote: Well I guess coolness and machismo trump integrity once again :/
Actually they were answers to generally sinple questions. Im dissapointed you didnt give them any thought and simply wrote them off. I didnt think they needed elaboration, but here you go.
1. Using the N word to be offensive is not acceptable. Using it to inflict pain is not acceptable, and using it to stir up violence is not aceptable. However, there is a long history or precedence of people using that word to be funny. Many of our best loved comedans have used it that way. Of course, they are quite talented, because funny is in the eye of the beholder, which of course is the difference between michael richards and chris rock.
2. Generally offensive jokes are not used in public. However, this site is not the public. Google is, and wikipedia is, but this isnt.
Again, this is all about context. In a thread involving a racial discussion, there is going to be a lot more leniency than an unrelated thread. A lot of that trolling was to argue a point. If someone in the strategy forum posts "get a white oveseer and those nigger scv will mine faster" yeah they get no slack because it isnt funny or in context.
To simply ban people for a word, not taking the context into consideration, is not appropriate. There are probably some people that went over the line in that thread, but how many hairs make a beard?
3. You vote with your feet. Dont like the behaviour of a mod? Talk to the mod. Getting no where? Drop it or get out. Mods have no responsibility to make you feel comfortable. There is no ombudsman at TL.
4. Some people see what they think is injustice and walk away. Others try to make a difference. Maybe you are another Martin Luther King. He fought for very unpopular causes. It all depends on what kind of person you are.
On April 14 2007 00:31 Beyonder wrote: Ignore the ones who can't do anything but insult, for they are not worth the time nor effort. Steve just had a rough childhood.
There's nothing wrong with discussing, as long as you're open to what people have to say.
you're as stupid and socially inept as he is. you're fucking nuts if you think i'm going to put up with any sass from a shithead like you
Socially inept? Stupid? Oh the hilarity. Is this what they call mirroring? -_- Maybe you should use some more curse words to be badass, because this doesnt seem to be working
Too bad your post ratio averages 250 bad posts to 1 funny post. Guess we got something to look forward to in 24 days.
Anyway, not derailing thread any further, I'm off to the beach!
I have to post here now, despite the likely case that FakeSteve will be all over me for this with his cool, oh-so-moderate, curse-free posting style. I don't give a fuck, so don't try.
I basically agree with bine, though I have to say he took some things out of context and overreacted a few times. What Mani said is a good compromise in my eyes, but I think there should be a small general guideline about this, maybe a one-liner in the new sticky in the general forum, just so anybody knows what's going on.
Whenever there was a problem that was severe enough to require being handled by moderators, there has been a special thread and general discussion about it, see Homework Threads and the like.
It's no big deal after all, but I personally think people have to be told when - in general, no whole novel about when to use the N word or any other racist remark or when not to do - such things are appropriate. I myself have been using that word once or twice in one of my countless attempts to appear as a funny guy, but I will refrain to do that from now on. That's my small part.
We can still have fun without randomly offending minorities, right?
bine I think your message is important and valid. Admins here began by telling you "take it easy" and you pointed out it is them who need some sort of consistency on this matter. I agree. Sometimes admins smash racist remarks, hell its even in the 10 commandments. And other times they laugh at it and dont care at all. That is bad. I addition, you obviously care for TL.net, I think that is admirable (fuck I cannot spell this morning), dont become an activist but try and represent your cause as you have and do not slink to steve's low.
On April 14 2007 08:39 {88}iNcontroL wrote: bine I think your message is important and valid. Admins here began by telling you "take it easy" and you pointed out it is them who need some sort of consistency on this matter. I agree. Sometimes admins smash racist remarks, hell its even in the 10 commandments. And other times they laugh at it and dont care at all. That is bad. I addition, you obviously care for TL.net, I think that is admirable (fuck I cannot spell this morning), dont become an activist but try and represent your cause as you have and do not slink to steve's low.
i think of it like someone said above...it can be humorous, just as comedians use it. if youre not using it in a derogatory manner to delibarately piss soemoen off, then i see no harm. its pretty easy to distinguish someone being racist and someone joking around. ive got plenty of black friends who we joke around with like that.
I think the best way to look at this is this: Teamliquid is like an eHouse, a place where you can visit as guests, and where the moderators are the household members. As such, the rules obviously swing in their favor, so there's no real "injustice" because this site is within their realm; they control the rules here. This is a PRIVATE site.
Now, the great thing about this eHouse is that the members try to be as fair and rational to everyone, and try to be considerate to all. This debate here about racism is within the area of one's discretion, but mostly from the moderators; no FBI members will bash into the house of perpatrators because again, this site is private.
EDIT: To be actually on topic:
Idealistically, I agree with you. Then again, ideally, mankind should follow the 10 commandments.
In reality, though, people will cuss, fuss, and wreak bloody hell when they are in that "troll" form. In the general sense, an online community is a great place to speak freely generally without worrying about such things as stereotypes or appearances. As such, the "n" word would be expected more occasionally. In this sense, I agree with Fakesteve.
I realize you probably don't care bine, but I'm going to add my 2 cents:
If you truly care this much about racism and the "wrongs" that you feel black people have to withstand, then you should find someway in real life to get your point across. Writing up something on an internet forum is simply not going to get your point across.
On a side note: why do you feel so compelled to speak out this strongly to fight racism? Only because of the moral values that go along beside it? Do you feel this strongly about other situations such as homelessness and lack of education? I don't know...I just think that one should pick their battles and this one is not the best one to pick.
Believe me, this isn't the only place I've had these sorts of conversations. I guess my investment in racism is partly ideological and partly because I know some extremely wonderful african americans who have spent a great deal of time talking to me about these things. My best friend from high school is black, and we went to a school where this sort of thing was extremely prevalent. I feel like it's a battle I can pick because I happen to have spent a lot of time reading about it and talking about it, going to conferences, stuff like that. And this isn't the only battle I pick (though it's certainly the first time I've really advocated anything like this on tl.net, which apparently isn't such a swell idea) in my larger life, it is one that I feel relatively comfortable picking. I would know less, for example, about the issues surrounding inter-Asian relations (ie. Korea/Japan/China) or about contemporary Nazism and post-war issues in Germany. I've been thinking about it on tl.net for awhile, but I haven't really wanted to bring it up beyond saying "please don't say the N word" whenever people do so in a racist context. But when it gets to the point that absurd confusion about race relations is commingling with racist humor, I feel like it's worth alienating myself somewhat in the off chance that some heightened sensitivity will result.
If you think I want this kind of attention, you're out of your mind
It's so much easier to not say anything, as ETT pointed out. The entrenched sensibilities here aren't shocking, although I had hoped they weren't the way they apparently are. But I still would have felt like a schmuck if I hadn't said anything. Again, I regret the thread title and I cringe when I look at it :/
As to the "this is a private site so suck it and don't ever speak your mind" argument, I think what I did is mostly appropriate. I'm not pretending like this is my website, or a government website, or anything like that, and I'm not making demands or leveraging some imaginary power. I'm just heatedly trying to make an argument in the hopes that people will think about it. After all, this is the "Website Feedback" forum. If people weren't supposed to share how they feel about the site and suggest change, what's the point of having it? I have no illusions about my ability to demand change, and I certainly don't expect anything to be done that the administrators don't agree with.
Again, this notion of my thinking anyone has a responsibility to me is beside the point, and I don't mean to imply that I think anyone does. In asking the questions I'm asking, I don't think I'm anywhere suggesting that moderators have an innate responsibility to every member of the site or myself. I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting and asking what I'm asking, but I don't do so out of an expectation that things will change. No mods have a responsibility to do what I say, but if I was a member of the staff I would want to know when people are uncomfortable with the behavior of someone else on the staff. The idea that the only person it's appropriate to contact is the person you are uncomfortable with just doesn't make any sense. The mods that tend to be offensive obviously aren't the ones that would be receptive to such remarks. I think some other recourse is important (which isn't to say that I think that anyone has an absolute responsibility to do it, or that I'm demanding it happen immediately, or that I think that it should happen just because I say so). Any other policy suggests that the staff is somehow infallible, which obviously isn't the case.
On humor: if there was a grain of insight or surprise or real humor in anything said here using the N word, I wouldn't object. But since the would-be comedians here are neither black or insightful. I think that when the humor rests solely on the objectionable nature of the word and the childish testing of its use, it's pretty conspicuously indefensible. People aren't making sophisticated jokes about the N word. They're just attaching "nigga" to the end of sentences arbitrarily.
This site is public because anyone can read it. Although it's privately held and moderated, it's not privately viewed. In the same way I shouldn't put up a sign in my front yard that says "All black women have annoying voices," I probably shouldn't do so in a highly trafficked message board. This site isn't publicly owned, and doesn't profess to be in the public service, but it IS still a public presentation, as it can be accessed by anyone.
I went to great lengths to specify that I DON'T think anyone should be banned immediately just for using the N word. There are obviously appropriate uses of it and inappropriate ones. I think the main point of contention here involves the benefits and harms of the word's frivolous use. To suggest that only people who say the N word maliciously are guilty of racism denies the existence of non-overt racism. Making the N word part of the every day vocabulary of white people, erasing the pause before its use that so many people have worked so hard to construct, is still doing grave harm to black people, because it allows people who really do have racist feelings to give themselves permission to act on them. Again, even if I think it's just factual truth and am not trying to deal damage to anyone, saying "All niggers smell bad" is incredibly ignorant and disgusting, and still clearly racist. Intentions are not really a consideration, and are impossible to judge. Who are any of us to claim to know the intentions of someone sitting at their computer? Even if they're just trying to be funny, their remarks still have the same effect, and still create an environment that ultimately is damaging to the cause of equality and civility.
This whole "like everything about this place or gtfo" attitude is exactly like my high school. As I said then and will say now, just because I dislike one aspect of the things that go on here doesn't mean I don't love it here. If the choice is between tl.net with the N word and no tl.net, I'll still choose tl.net. But precisely because I love this place so much, I feel an obligation to treat it with respect. If I thought of tl.net as just some random shitty forum where no one cares, I wouldn't bother to say anything. This place is incredibly unique, and part of the reason it is so is essentially tied to the moderating staff, which is of unparalleled quality. Even rek, though I disagree with him on this issue, is an adept moderator and a good guy. I don't want to give the impression that I'm anything less than awed by tl.net and its staff in most respects. Wishing that it was a bit more sensitive and a bit less like a fraternity doesn't mean that I think you guys are doing a bad job.
I haven't read through your entire argument, but I did notice the part in retaliation to my post.
"this is a private site so suck it and don't ever speak your mind"
Never have I said that. Now you're putting words into my mouth. I only suggested that TRUE, you can try talking to people about it like you're doing now, but I believe the best way to have done it is to pm the right moderators. They are the ones who are running this site, after all. You didn't have to create a full thread about it, at least without what I just suggested. Think about it: what did you accomplish so far? You've done nothign but cause chaos on both sides of the argument and get Fakesteve temp-banned.
I respect the fact that you want the world to be a more harmonious place in terms of racial tributes. What I cannot stand, however, is the methods you're employing to get them accomplished. Also, if I look at some of the things you've said such as "Teamliquid hostile to minorities?" (labelling), the free use of "white boy" (labelling again), then relating this place to your supposedly immature high school and a fraternity (labelled once more), I get the underwhelming feeling that you need to look at yourself first.
Reconsider your position, get your head straight, then feel free to respond, if you dare to continue arguing with me.
uh, its a discussion forum. while the title of his thread could be reconsidered, i really don't see whats wrong with this topic being discussed in "website feedback."
did you read what "got steve banned"? it was 100% fakesteves own fault, blaming it on bine who didn't even instigate anything vs steve is ridiculous. in general i think, while i don't necessarily agree with everything bine had to say, the topic was worth discussing and bine himself was far more open to other opinions and true discussion than some of the people flaming him in this thread (cough steve).
and "if you dare continue arguing with me"? grow up
"this is a private site so suck it and don't ever speak your mind"
Never have I said that. Now you're putting words into my mouth. I only suggested that TRUE, you can try talking to people about it like you're doing now, but I believe the best way to have done it is to pm the right moderators. They are the ones who are running this site, after all. You didn't have to create a full thread about it, at least without what I just suggested. Think about it: what did you accomplish so far? You've done nothign but cause chaos on both sides of the argument and get Fakesteve temp-banned.
I wasn't responding to you and didn't say your name once. There's a general attitude reinforced by your post but explicitly stated by Mani's "vote with your feet" bullet that tries to deflect the substance of an argument by pointing out that it probably shouldn't be had, and if it is, that one should wilt in the face of any official resistance. The problem is that I don't know the mod staff, and I don't really know who the "right" moderators are. But, if its the opinion of the staff that PMing them is a better idea for things like this than using the feedback forum, I'm definitely ready to do that instead. My hope for this thread though was not just that I would somehow change policy, but also to crystalize some of the conversations implied by the other thread, so that maybe some people reading this would think a bit more about the jokes they make and about race relations in general, none of which could be achieved just through PMing.
On April 14 2007 21:36 ilovezil wrote:
I respect the fact that you want the world to be a more harmonious place in terms of racial tributes. What I cannot stand, however, is the methods you're employing to get them accomplished. Also, if I look at some of the things you've said such as "Teamliquid hostile to minorities?" (labelling), the free use of "white boy" (labelling again), then relating this place to your supposedly immature high school and a fraternity (labelled once more), I get the underwhelming feeling that you need to look at yourself first.
The problem here isn't labelling, and this can and will be the fifth time I've noted my regret regarding the thread's title, but I think you're confused about my statements also. Even the awful thread title is a question, and I don't think I ever used white boy in a defamatory light (I only hoped to call attention to someone's whiteness when it was important for establishing the nature of their use of the N word or the making of racial jokes). Also, I didn't say "tl.net is my immature highschool and a fraternity!!!", I said that I some of the same dynamics present here were present at my highschool and that I wish that specific aspects of the staff/member dynamic here were slightly less like a fraternity. I am constantly introspective about my relationship to these issues, and though it's certainly possible that I'm wrong on a lot of things in my life, I promise that if I bring them up with this much fervor I have at least done my best to be sure of my thoughts and opinions. I agree with you, though, that it's always important to think about your own actions before requesting that other people think about amending theirs.
On April 15 2007 10:34 Myxomatosis wrote: i think that when used tastefully, nigger is quite a funny work. ex. "fuck yo couch, nigga!"
What makes it tasteful is that the writer is black. The N word can be hilarious, but in the same way you don't find white professional comedians casually dropping the word all the time, it's strikingly less tasteful, and mostly less funny, when said by white people here.
On April 15 2007 10:34 Myxomatosis wrote: i think that when used tastefully, nigger is quite a funny work. ex. "fuck yo couch, nigga!"
What makes it tasteful is that the writer is black. The N word can be hilarious, but in the same way you don't find white professional comedians casually dropping the word all the time, it's strikingly less tasteful, and mostly less funny, when said by white people here.
There shouldn't be a double standard set around the word nigger. If black people don't like to be called nigger then they shouldn't call each other nigger or nigga or anything referencing it. Its ignorant to think otherwise.
On April 15 2007 10:34 Myxomatosis wrote: i think that when used tastefully, nigger is quite a funny work. ex. "fuck yo couch, nigga!"
What makes it tasteful is that the writer is black. The N word can be hilarious, but in the same way you don't find white professional comedians casually dropping the word all the time, it's strikingly less tasteful, and mostly less funny, when said by white people here.
There shouldn't be a double standard set around the word nigger. If black people don't like to be called nigger then they shouldn't call each other nigger or nigga or anything referencing it. Its ignorant to think otherwise.
I don't think I'm a good person to explain this to you, unfortunately.
Bine, you make good points, and it's obvious you're intelligent and passionate about the subject. Perhaps what people are doing is somewhat ignorant, and dumb, but it's often just people being stupid rather than outwardly racist. If people are genuinely racist, the mods ban them, but on a forum so large people (myself included) say dumb stuff all the time. I can't say I've ever written the N word around here, but I can't say I'm offended when I see it.
Then again, I'm an ignorant white guy who honestly can't see the fuss around the work when it's used in a "tasteful" manner (i.e jokes). I can see your point though how something seemingly harmless could be perceived as offensive to others.
There are definite double standards in using the word though. You see black comedians rip on white people all the time and use the N word, but if a white comedian ever used the N word, it's utter blasphemy.
I think you just need to show faith in the mods and trust their doing the best job they can.
Thanks for the calm, thoughtful reply. As I've said, I have great faith in the mods, and only hope to address a very specific issue with them and the rest of tl.net.
I agree that in most cases the people making racist comments are doing so out of ignorance, and I'm not even claiming that most of them are themselves racists. But the comments they make are damaging whether they intended them to be or not. Again, I'm not advocating everyone be banned. I'm just advocating a policy that says that tl.net doesn't like racist statements whether they are meant to be racist or not. All I would ask for is a polite message be sent to those who make statements that are racially derogatory asking them not to do so any more. I tried doing this myself with an obvious set of cases, saying "please don't use the N word" when people have done so, but it's almost always met with flames and more ignorant posts. If it was gently stated that these posts are inappropriate by the staff, the issue would disappear completely and no one would need to get banned or anything.
In a way, all I'm really asking for is an updated sense on the staff of what constitutes racism. Any article about racism longer than a page differentiates between overt racism and other forms of it, and I don't believe that overt instances of racial hatred are the only negative instances of racism that need to be addressed. We already have a policy about racism. I just think there might be some confusion as to exactly what constitutes racism.
fake steve is 100 % correct and no one should have to take this kind of crap, where a minority doesnt get his way and breaks down and crys.
it can be very annoying when someone complains with no real reason.
What makes it tasteful is that the writer is black. The N word can be hilarious, but in the same way you don't find white professional comedians casually dropping the word all the time, it's strikingly less tasteful, and mostly less funny, when said by white people here.
Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated. Please, someone clarify tl.net's position on this and please, start enforcing it.
what utter prejudice, why would you think that only young white men find it funny? you sir are the racist.
dude, screw you and your reverse racism. You want to be able to say whatever you want while the "white man" has his hands tied behind his back and takes it. Why do some people always think of the world in terms of their race vs. everyone
FORGET THAT, double standard hypocritic idiocy.
p.s. i can have friends from all races, which means i can dislike people of all races aswell.
I think it's important to be consistent, not just banning people for some disgusting things while chuckling in response to others. When a member of the staff repeatedly uses the N word and claims that it might be legitimate to "hate all black girls" because they have "loud, shreeky voices", participating in the same bullshit macho racist crap as the wayward children, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
what if he has a predisposition which causes him to not like black girls?!? that is his personal preference!
It's funny because it's taboo. We see Rek being outrageous and give a smile at his curious behavior. As Mani said, when it is used to cause offence then they are banned. When someone does it to make people happy it is a positive use of the word.
I think the N word is somewhat losing it's taboo in society. 30 or so years ago there's no doubt it was a derogatory term, but in modern culture it's becoming more "acceptable". Although some people do use it to offend, it's crept into pop culture a lot through music, comedy, and movies in particular.
While it is a somewhat offensive term to many still, I think it is also more acceptable to use it in society in the right context (without being offensive).
But unfortunately it's not up to us (white people) to decide when and if that term stops being offensive. It may be growing in its use in the white world, but it's still considered unacceptable for white people to say that word in any sort of joking way by most of the American adult population anyway. Think about it this way: would you make the jokes you're making in front of a black person you just met? If the answer is no, making the joke on a public forum where it can and will be read by people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds probably isn't the best idea.
im still slightly confused as how you can justify some black kid coming up to me and calling me a white boy, honkee*insert any other derogatory white term here*. thats ok? fuck that.
By Stanley Fish, considered widely to be one of the kings of American critical theory (aka he's brilliant), a brief essay with some irrelevant references to the first President Bush talking about Affirmative Action but addressing these same issues:
WHAT I want to say, following Bush's reasoning, is that a similar forgetting of history has in recent years allowed some people to argue, and argue persuasively, that affirmative action is reverse racism. The very phrase "reverse racism" contains the argument in exactly the form to which Bush objected: In this country whites once set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others. Now, on the basis of race, blacks are claiming special status and reserving for themselves privileges they deny to others. Isn't one as bad as the other? The answer is no. One can see why by imagining that it is not 1993 but 1955, and that we are in a town in the South with two more or less distinct communities, one white and one black. No doubt each community would have a ready store of dismissive epithets, ridiculing stories, self serving folk myths, and expressions of plain hatred, all directed at the other community, and all based in racial hostility. Yet to regard their respective racisms-if that is the word-as equivalent would be bizarre, for the hostility of one group stems not from any wrong done to it but from its wish to protect its ability to deprive citizens of their voting rights, to limit access to educational institutions, to prevent entry into the economy except at the lowest and most menial levels, and to force members of the stigmatized group to ride in the back of the bus. The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions, and whereas hostility and racial anger are unhappy facts wherever they are found, a distinction must surely be made between the ideological hostility of the oppressors and the experience-based hostility of those who have been oppressed. Not to make that distinction is, adapting George Bush's words, to twist history and forget the terrible plight of African-Americans in the more than 200 years of this country's existence. Moreover, to equate the efforts to remedy that plight with the actions that produced it is to twist history even further. Those efforts, designed to redress the imbalances caused by long-standing discrimination, are called affirmative action; to argue that affirmative action, which gives preferential treatment to disadvantaged minorities as part of a plan to achieve social equality, is no different from the policies that created the disadvantages in the first place is a travesty of reasoning. "Reverse racism" is a cogent description of affirmative action only if one considers the cancer of racism to be morally and medically indistinguishable from the therapy we apply to it. A cancer is an invasion of the body's equilibrium, and so is chemotherapy; but we do not decline to fight the disease because the medicine we em ploy is also disruptive of normal functioning. Strong illness, strong remedy: the formula is as appropriate to the health of the body politic as it is to that of the body proper.
At this point someone will always say, "But two wrongs don't make a right; if it was wrong to treat blacks unfairly, it is wrong to give blacks preference and thereby treat whites unfairly." This objection is just another version of the forgetting and rewriting of history. The work is done by the adverb "unfairly," which suggests two more or less equal parties, one of whom has been unjustly penalized by an incompetent umpire. But blacks have not simply been treated unfairly; they have been subjected first to decades of slavery, and then to decades of second-class citizenship, wide spread legalized discrimination, economic persecution, educational deprivation, and cultural stigmatization. They have been bought, sold, killed, beaten, raped, excluded, exploited. shamed, and scorned for a very long time. The word "unfair" is hardly an adequate description of their experience, and the belated gift of "fairness" in the form of a resolution no longer to discriminate against them legally is hardly an adequate remedy for the deep disadvantages that the prior discrimination has produced. When the deck is stacked against you in more ways than you can even count, it is small consolation to hear that you are now free to enter the game and take your chances.
Instead of Affirmative Action, think about the right to own the term "Nigger." The reason black people can use the word and white people can't is that for them, it is a reclamation of power, something hateful that they have worked hard to appropriate for their own use. Think about it this way: for black culture, the word means something different (none of us are simplified structuralists here, I hope) than for white culture. So instead of 2 people saying nigger, think of the black person as saying "man" and the white person as saying "disgusting black man who should be lynched." While certainly not every white man who says the N word means "disgusting black man who should be lynched," but the cultural connotation still exists and they are in fact misusing the term unless they are somehow referring to it rather than using it as it commonly means.
As I said above, I'm not the person to explain this to you, because I am not black and cannot adequately describe the feeling of having a white person casually use that word. But there are definitely people who can (although, of course, not every black person will think this same way, there are a great deal of people who will express to you the hurt they feel when they hear a white person make a joke using the N word if you ask them to). But suffice it to say that if you don't believe that there should be a double standard regarding the N word, you're against, for example, every serious higher education institution in the United States, every scholar with credibility on race relations or theories of discrimination, etc.
I don't think that black people being calling anyone epithets is OK. But that's not even relevant to this conversation. We're talking about the appropriateness of making jokes that are insulting to black people. If you find that tl.net begins to have an excess of people making fun of whites, I would stand beside you in a quest to correct that situation. Again, I'm not claiming that anyone should be coming up to you calling you a honkey. I'm just claiming you shouldn't be throwing around the word "nigger" or, for that matter "nigga" (which is just an ethnic spelling of nigger, ie. the same word) even though black people can and do.
what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
But unfortunately it's not up to us (white people) to decide when and if that term stops being offensive. It may be growing in its use in the white world, but it's still considered unacceptable for white people to say that word in any sort of joking way by most of the American adult population anyway. Think about it this way: would you make the jokes you're making in front of a black person you just met? If the answer is no, making the joke on a public forum where it can and will be read by people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds probably isn't the best idea.
Sure, the word is not respectable, but that is less due to its inflammatory nature than to the fact that it means nothing. It is like any other inflammatory word, which has ceased to become shocking due to the vulgarity of our society. The problem is not racism, but lack of verbal value. Deterioration of language is only a symptom of wider degeneracies at play.
I believe that many white people who use that word are themselves imitating blacks, and black sub-culture. I don't see the point of criticizing the inaccessibility of this forum to black people while erecting a racial barrier in the use of certain words. The only means of segregating words along lines of race, is through racial segregation itself.
Ok, coming back to Chapelle's show as an example, Neal Brennan is one of the chief writers for the show and also white. We all know the show makes fun of blacks, white, hispanics etc, but is Neal Brennan a racist or is it OK for him because he works in collaboration with black people?
There's such a big grey area here and I don't think it's right so say white people can't say it at all just because we're white.
But unfortunately it's not up to us (white people) to decide when and if that term stops being offensive. It may be growing in its use in the white world, but it's still considered unacceptable for white people to say that word in any sort of joking way by most of the American adult population anyway. Think about it this way: would you make the jokes you're making in front of a black person you just met? If the answer is no, making the joke on a public forum where it can and will be read by people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds probably isn't the best idea.
Sure, the word is not respectable, but that is less due to its inflammatory nature than to the fact that it means nothing. It is like any other inflammatory word, which has ceased to become shocking due to the vulgarity of our society. The problem is not racism, but lack of verbal value. Deterioration of language is only a symptom of wider degeneracies at play.
I believe that many white people who use that word are themselves imitating blacks, and black sub-culture. I don't see the point of criticizing the inaccessibility of this forum to black people while erecting a racial barrier in the use of certain words. The only means of segregating words along lines of race, is through racial segregation itself.
Like I said, the easiest way to understand this is to understand there to be 2 different words, the way black people say and the word white people say. The two ways of using the words just have such wildly divergent effects and meanings that they really are like 2 different words. I agree, the word is largely meaningless, and that's another reason not to use it and a compelling argument for blacks not to use the word. I don't think I affirmatively want black people to use the word either, but I think that it's important to understand that when they do use it it's much different than when white people use it. At the end of the day, it would probably be a better idea for no one to use the N word. But I can't really get mad at black people for using it in the same way I can at white people.
On April 16 2007 18:53 RowdierBob wrote: Ok, coming back to Chapelle's show as an example, Neal Brennan is one of the chief writers for the show and also white. We all know the show makes fun of blacks, white, hispanics etc, but is Neal Brennan a racist or is it OK for him because he works in collaboration with black people?
There's such a big grey area here and I don't think it's right so say white people can't say it at all just because we're white.
Of course there's a gray area, and I've said that there are some circumstances in which white people using the word are OK. Being a writer for a black comedian is certainly one of them. Addressing the word in an academic context is another one. I'm definitely not claiming that there's some sort of inherent problem with the syllables "nig" and "ger" being uttered by a white person. I'm just saying that white people casually joking about it amongst themselves perpetuates the usage of the word in a negative way and allows people to feel more comfortable with racist attitudes in general.
On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote: what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use?
On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote: what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others." So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted. You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action".
On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote: what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others." So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted. You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action".
Much like, and even more so, than calling all Germans nazis. But still I don't make Jew jokes, not in public, and very very rarely around people I know well enough to know they won't get me wrong.
Just because you didn't have anything to do with it, doesn't make it right for you to say whatever you please.
If white people were offended by the word cracker due to some historic events in wherever, you'd still not want black or asian people to call you like this. You'd want them to stop, no matter what they or they ancestors did or never did. It doesn't matter because the word itself is inherently offensive and meant to disturb/insult people.
Although I admit it has lost is meaning pretty much due to it being overused in contemporary music and amongst people who call themselves "players" and stuff.
On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote: what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others." So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted. You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action".
Much like, and even more so, than calling all Germans nazis. But still I don't make Jew jokes, not in public, and very very rarely around people I know well enough to know they won't get me wrong.
Just because you didn't have anything to do with it, doesn't make it right for you to say whatever you please.
If white people were offended by the word cracker due to some historic events in wherever, you'd still not want black or asian people to call you like this. You'd want them to stop, no matter what they or they ancestors did or never did. It doesn't matter because the word itself is inherently offensive and meant to disturb/insult people.
Although I admit it has lost is meaning pretty much due to it being overused in contemporary music and amongst people who call themselves "players" and stuff.
yeah except that my beef was with bine when he implied that when black people joke about whites then it's somehow different and ALL white ppl should stfu because of the crimes they did to them in the past. He said to read that Stanley dude's essay and I was replying to that. Whether the black ppl are offended by the n word or not is irrelevant for me because in my country there are basically no black population.
I'm sorry I didn't check what country you are from. I really don't have any information about race relations in Hungary, but I apologize for assuming you were North American on the basis of your post.
On April 17 2007 03:19 MoltkeWarding wrote: So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use?
Yes, of course! If eminem decided that using the N word was a good idea, the word would have drastically different implications than a black rapper using the same word. His meaning would appear to be some strange, referential echo of the black rapper's meaning, and would be, like you said, an imitation. For the black rapper, the word can be used as just a casual suspect for "man" or "dude" or whatever. The rapping medium is partitioned, but not in any different way than the wider verbal discourse that it's a part of. Just as I probably wouldn't feel as uncomfortable with a women constantly talking about bitches, or a gay rapper talking about fags, it's pretty clear that black people use the N word differently than white people do.
On April 17 2007 03:19 MoltkeWarding wrote: So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use?
Yes, of course! If eminem decided that using the N word was a good idea, the word would have drastically different implications than a black rapper using the same word. His meaning would appear to be some strange, referential echo of the black rapper's meaning, and would be, like you said, an imitation. For the black rapper, the word can be used as just a casual suspect for "man" or "dude" or whatever. The rapping medium is partitioned, but not in any different way than the wider verbal discourse that it's a part of. Just as I probably wouldn't feel as uncomfortable with a women constantly talking about bitches, or a gay rapper talking about fags, it's pretty clear that black people use the N word differently than white people do.
Hear that everyone? Everyone who tells me to stop bashing Chinamen should now STFU.
"Thread derailment in under five posts 101" by Teamliquid.net. -_-*
Ready2Esc: I was not trying to argue with you, I was trying to make a point in the discussion. What I was basically trying to say was, just because you don't find the N word offensive at all, because it has no meaning in your culture or you don't feel guilty in any way, doesn't make it right nor do you have any reason to use it anyway. But maybe that's just me. I don't approve of the word being used by white persons, just as you guys try to justify it. Let's leave it at that.
On April 18 2007 00:41 Cpt Obvious wrote: "Thread derailment in under five posts 101" by Teamliquid.net. -_-*
Ready2Esc: I was not trying to argue with you, I was trying to make a point in the discussion. What I was basically trying to say was, just because you don't find the N word offensive at all, because it has no meaning in your culture or you don't feel guilty in any way, doesn't make it right nor do you have any reason to use it anyway. But maybe that's just me. I don't approve of the word being used by white persons, just as you guys try to justify it. Let's leave it at that.
I understand all that but I wasn't arguing this. (reread my posts if you want I'm not gonna repeat myself since I've droped this subject) I don't care about the N word so I won't use it. In the past I may have said it on a few occasions jokingly but since this word doesn't mean anything to me I might as well stop using it if ppl feel that offended by it. (Of course this only applies to the forums since as I said there are basically no black ppl to be offended in my country so I could say it as much as I want here.)
Oh yesss, that would so epically pwn, it's hard to even comprehend! Saro to the rescue please!
PS.: On topic: I kinda feel left out and mistreated/ignored because I never get called a cracker or honky or whatever... I want niggers to call me honky :/ Same case as with Ready2 here, basically no black people around, so nobody possibly to be offended either...
ROFL, I just found this on god old Wiki: "Honky was later adopted as a pejorative meaning white in 1967 by black militants within SNCC seeking a rebuttal for the term nigger. They settled on a familiar word they felt was disparaging to certain Americans of European descent; hunkie meaning an American of Slavic or Hungarian descent."
So while Hungarian people didn't do anything worthy to have to redeem themselves for to the black community, the blacks just started randomly calling them names! Ready2! Feel free to call black people niggers from now on, on the just basis of taking righteous payback for the derogatory flames your ancestors had to endure in the past!
LOL, this whole racial sensitivity issue cracks me up so much, guess that makes me a cracker! :p
Why is it that only whites can be racists? Body: you call me "redneck" ,"hillbilly", "slaker" , "Cracker", "Honkey", "Whitey", "Gringo" and you think it's OK.
...But If Iwere to call you coon,jiggaboo, Kike, sand nigger, rag head ,Towelhead, WOP, Camel Jockey, Gook, nigger, slant eyes or Chink you call me a racist.
-You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
-You have the United Negro College Fund.
-You have Martin Luther King Day.
-You have Black History Month.
-You have Cesar Chavez Day.
-You have Yom Hashoah
-You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi
-You have the NAACP.
-You have BET.
-If we had WET(white entertainment television) ...we'd be racist.
-If we had a White Pride Day... you would call us racist.
-If we had white history month... we'd be racist.
-If we had an organization for only whites to "advance" our lives... we'd be racist.
-If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships...you know we'd be racist.
-In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights...you would call us racist.
-Did you know that some high school students decided to make a club for only the white students because the other ethnicities had them... they all got sent to court for being racist but the african-american, Latino, and Asia clubs were not even questioned.
-You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
The problem, in my opinion, is that the minorities and the majority have to be (common consensus, not necessarily so) treated differently.
In said scenarios where we have for example a "White Pride Day" or whatever, it is only a small step (or several steps, I don't want to argue about specifics here) towards the exclusion of minorities from major social activities.
Scenario: Shuttle busses from the parking lot to a White Pride Parade scene would be for whites only, see the analogy?
I know this is highly constructed and theoretical, but you get the point. There is a background to this whole theme and the have been problems which have been adressed. Let's not take a step back in social development.
We have to accept that we are inherently and by definition NOT equal, some might even argue caucasian's in America are even underprivileged in some cases, compared to their afro-american fellow citizens. Now what? Turn it all around until we are back in the days of KKK and whites-only? Please not. Minorities have to be protected both by law and society as a whole. There is no such thing as "perfect balance" or "equilibrium" here. Get along or get out.
I'll address this to the person writing by using "you" without really referring to you, as you benignly posted it.
Why is it that only whites can be racists? Body: you call me "redneck" ,"hillbilly", "slaker" , "Cracker", "Honkey", "Whitey", "Gringo" and you think it's OK.
...But If Iwere to call you coon,jiggaboo, Kike, sand nigger, rag head ,Towelhead, WOP, Camel Jockey, Gook, nigger, slant eyes or Chink you call me a racist.
Because whites are the dominant racial group at least in North American culture. Non-dominant groups can be prejudiced and wrongly insulting on the basis of race, but because they are not doing so from a position of undeniable power (as when whites use the words listed above in a racist manner) they aren't what we mean when we say racist. In other words, the author of this question is just confused about what racism is.
-You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
I don't know who you've been talking to, but racial violence isn't a key issue today in the way you're describing it. There still are issues related to it, like white police officers abusing black populations in lots of America at least, but there isn't really widespread KKK style violence any more (though it does still exist sometimes), at least since the ending of the lynching genocide. Whites have committed unspeakable violence to black people historically, however, so maybe this is where you're getting confused. The ghettos are the most dangerous places to live because of the intense poverty concentrated there and the resulting desperation and subsequent money-related crime (ie. muggings).
Also, just so you know, "ghetto" doesn't mean the place where black people live. It means where poor people live in bad conditions. It just happens that because of slavery, post-slavery lack of educational opportunities resulting in black culture being behind educationally, institutional racism and slavery-era eugenics that those areas in America are often heavily black.
-You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have generations of legacy acceptances, and a store of wealth and power built on the backs of slaves to spend on education.
-You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Presidents day.
-You have Black History Month.
You have eleven White History Months.
-You have Cesar Chavez Day.
Huh? When is that? It would be great if Cesar Chavez did have a day, but I don't know that this is very widespread. Even if it is, what's your point? That some non-white people have days honoring them? Besides, you have Columbus day.
-You have Yom Hashoah
Huh? Who has it? It's a national holiday in Israel to remember the holocaust. Do you really think that's inappropriate?
-You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi
Oh no, Muslims have a holiday celebrating the birth of their prophet? You have Christmas, Easter, etc. Again, I don't understand this holiday business. White people have "possession" in the sense you're describing of so many more holidays, and, in fact, the very calendar that they exist on. This whole discussion is bogus. We ALL have MLK day, Yom Hashoah etc.; they are days for the WORLD to remember important things. MLK was an important PERSON, not just an important black person. The holocaust OBVIOUSLY was not just a problem for Jews, it was a problem for the entire human species.
-You have the NAACP.
You the government of the United States.
-You have BET.
You have virtually all of cable and every network on television.
-If we had WET(white entertainment television) ...we'd be racist.
Again, most TV is WET. That would be like having an Chinese Food restaurant in China.
-If we had a White Pride Day... you would call us racist.
That's because you are the dominant group within the culture. I guess you're referring to gay pride, but anyway, pride days are usually expressions of pride as a form of resistance, being proud about something that is subordinated or looked down upon as a way of saying that it shouldn't be. Anyway, people would call you racist if you had White Pride Day because it would be an obvious reaction against other pride days (or whatever it is you think you're referring to) rather than an honest expression of pride (which seems pretty impossible, considering being white doesn't really entail anything to be proud about. I guess you could be proud that you had enough technology to force black people to work for you, but that seems like not such a good thing to be proud about.
-If we had white history month... we'd be racist.
Again, every month is white history month.
-If we had an organization for only whites to "advance" our lives... we'd be racist.
You have thousands of organizations to do that. What's the fortune 500? What's the lobbying industry? What'srepublican national committee?
-If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships...you know we'd be racist.
That's because white people aren't underprivileged. Black people need extra scholarships because there is a huge gap in the amount of scholarships black people are able to get. An analogy I've used before: giving black students scholarships is like cutting off a man's legs and then giving him a band aid and telling him to do his best. If there was a fund that gave white people scholarships, that would be like having a scholarship fund for rich people. It would be conspicuously unneeded, and therefor would resonate as a racist reaction to entirely appropriate black scholarship funds.
-In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights...you would call us racist.
You would be called racist because you would be mocking an important historical event. You have no need to march for your race or your rights, because you are dominant and have any rights you wish. This is just silly.
-Did you know that some high school students decided to make a club for only the white students because the other ethnicities had them... they all got sent to court for being racist but the african-american, Latino, and Asia clubs were not even questioned.
Again, the reason that seems racist is because there's no relevant shared experience to have a club about, so it appears to be a mocking reaction to affinity clubs. Asian Americans have a certain shared experience as Asian Americans that it can be helpful to talk about. What would you do in a white people club? Talk about how nice it is not to have to think about your race unless you want to? Think about how great it is that its so easy for you to get jobs, buy homes, get loans, blend in?
-You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.
You're racist because you are mimicking the defensive actions of disadvantaged minorities and thereby insulting them. What do you have to be proud of? You haven't survived hardship on the basis of your ethnicity. You haven't overcome anything. You've sat back and exploited.
I am white.
I am proud.
I am white. I'm fine with being white, but I think we have a lot of work to do to make things right in the arena of race relations. You, on the other hand, sound like a child or like Hitler.
bine i am literally dumbfounded at how obtuse you are being with your responses there. almost all of what you said are canned responses crafted by radicals who are more racist than we are.
heres the fun part: i don't agree with the sentiments in that email
Bine your logic is severely flawed in every arguement, stop being an idiot.
You're hereby banned from talking about racism on this forum. (thats a warning)edit: even tho i agree with u alot and your intentions are good, its just gunna start a flame war
EPT
There's still a large degree of visibility due to that.
), or that they aren't really racist because they phrased their cutting insult as a question. The implication that ANYONE would be justified for "hating" all black women because of an absolutely false stereotype about their voices (some of the most beautiful voices in the world belong to black women) is offensive, whether it's phrased as a question or not.
