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On April 16 2007 11:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
chraej please read his post and have an open mind
also i don't see how bine's race has anything to do with his argument
really i'm trying, but he makes it hard to stretch it sometimes.
i know what he is saying but i dont agree with 90% of it.
+ i refuse to limit myself because of race, that is just a ridiculous request and i will not fulfill it.
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On April 16 2007 14:06 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +But unfortunately it's not up to us (white people) to decide when and if that term stops being offensive. It may be growing in its use in the white world, but it's still considered unacceptable for white people to say that word in any sort of joking way by most of the American adult population anyway. Think about it this way: would you make the jokes you're making in front of a black person you just met? If the answer is no, making the joke on a public forum where it can and will be read by people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds probably isn't the best idea. Sure, the word is not respectable, but that is less due to its inflammatory nature than to the fact that it means nothing. It is like any other inflammatory word, which has ceased to become shocking due to the vulgarity of our society. The problem is not racism, but lack of verbal value. Deterioration of language is only a symptom of wider degeneracies at play. I believe that many white people who use that word are themselves imitating blacks, and black sub-culture. I don't see the point of criticizing the inaccessibility of this forum to black people while erecting a racial barrier in the use of certain words. The only means of segregating words along lines of race, is through racial segregation itself.
Like I said, the easiest way to understand this is to understand there to be 2 different words, the way black people say and the word white people say. The two ways of using the words just have such wildly divergent effects and meanings that they really are like 2 different words. I agree, the word is largely meaningless, and that's another reason not to use it and a compelling argument for blacks not to use the word. I don't think I affirmatively want black people to use the word either, but I think that it's important to understand that when they do use it it's much different than when white people use it. At the end of the day, it would probably be a better idea for no one to use the N word. But I can't really get mad at black people for using it in the same way I can at white people.
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On April 16 2007 18:53 RowdierBob wrote:
Ok, coming back to Chapelle's show as an example, Neal Brennan is one of the chief writers for the show and also white. We all know the show makes fun of blacks, white, hispanics etc, but is Neal Brennan a racist or is it OK for him because he works in collaboration with black people?
There's such a big grey area here and I don't think it's right so say white people can't say it at all just because we're white.
Of course there's a gray area, and I've said that there are some circumstances in which white people using the word are OK. Being a writer for a black comedian is certainly one of them. Addressing the word in an academic context is another one. I'm definitely not claiming that there's some sort of inherent problem with the syllables "nig" and "ger" being uttered by a white person. I'm just saying that white people casually joking about it amongst themselves perpetuates the usage of the word in a negative way and allows people to feel more comfortable with racist attitudes in general.
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On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote:
what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it.
Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
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So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use?
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On April 16 2007 20:01 bine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote:
what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it. Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question.
Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others."
So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted.
You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action".
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On April 17 2007 03:26 Ready2[ESC] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2007 20:01 bine wrote:On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote:
what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it. Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question. Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others." So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted. You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action".
Much like, and even more so, than calling all Germans nazis. But still I don't make Jew jokes, not in public, and very very rarely around people I know well enough to know they won't get me wrong.
Just because you didn't have anything to do with it, doesn't make it right for you to say whatever you please.
If white people were offended by the word cracker due to some historic events in wherever, you'd still not want black or asian people to call you like this. You'd want them to stop, no matter what they or they ancestors did or never did. It doesn't matter because the word itself is inherently offensive and meant to disturb/insult people.
Although I admit it has lost is meaning pretty much due to it being overused in contemporary music and amongst people who call themselves "players" and stuff.
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On April 17 2007 05:04 Cpt Obvious wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2007 03:26 Ready2[ESC] wrote:On April 16 2007 20:01 bine wrote:On April 16 2007 12:39 Ready2[ESC] wrote:
what I still don't get is in this day and age why should a white man take shit from black comedians and not vice verse? that's no equality between races that's just reverse racism anyway you put it. Read the Stanley Fish piece carefully. He pretty thoroughly answers this question. Did you notice that I'm not an american? Neither me nor any of my ancestors "set themselves apart from blacks and claimed privileges for themselves while denying them to others." So in other words "The hostility of the other group is the result of these actions" is never warranted. You expect me to take shit in turn of what YOUR ancestors did to blacks? You yourself are racist if you want to group all whites under the same thing eg. to take it on the chin since blacks were treated "unfairly" by them. Guess what? We (as in a lot of white ppl outside the us) did not do that. So when some black comedian talks shit about all whites I will get offended since I have nothing to do with the people who according to you deserve to take this "affirmative action". Much like, and even more so, than calling all Germans nazis. But still I don't make Jew jokes, not in public, and very very rarely around people I know well enough to know they won't get me wrong. Just because you didn't have anything to do with it, doesn't make it right for you to say whatever you please. If white people were offended by the word cracker due to some historic events in wherever, you'd still not want black or asian people to call you like this. You'd want them to stop, no matter what they or they ancestors did or never did. It doesn't matter because the word itself is inherently offensive and meant to disturb/insult people. Although I admit it has lost is meaning pretty much due to it being overused in contemporary music and amongst people who call themselves "players" and stuff.
yeah except that my beef was with bine when he implied that when black people joke about whites then it's somehow different and ALL white ppl should stfu because of the crimes they did to them in the past.
He said to read that Stanley dude's essay and I was replying to that.
Whether the black ppl are offended by the n word or not is irrelevant for me because in my country there are basically no black population.
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I'm sorry I didn't check what country you are from. I really don't have any information about race relations in Hungary, but I apologize for assuming you were North American on the basis of your post.
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On April 17 2007 03:19 MoltkeWarding wrote:
So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use?
Yes, of course! If eminem decided that using the N word was a good idea, the word would have drastically different implications than a black rapper using the same word. His meaning would appear to be some strange, referential echo of the black rapper's meaning, and would be, like you said, an imitation. For the black rapper, the word can be used as just a casual suspect for "man" or "dude" or whatever. The rapping medium is partitioned, but not in any different way than the wider verbal discourse that it's a part of. Just as I probably wouldn't feel as uncomfortable with a women constantly talking about bitches, or a gay rapper talking about fags, it's pretty clear that black people use the N word differently than white people do.
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On April 17 2007 07:04 bine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2007 03:19 MoltkeWarding wrote:
So if a white rapper uses that word in imitation of black sub-culture, he is invoking a different meaning than a black rapper? Is the rapping medium racially partitioned in terms of the words one can use? Yes, of course! If eminem decided that using the N word was a good idea, the word would have drastically different implications than a black rapper using the same word. His meaning would appear to be some strange, referential echo of the black rapper's meaning, and would be, like you said, an imitation. For the black rapper, the word can be used as just a casual suspect for "man" or "dude" or whatever. The rapping medium is partitioned, but not in any different way than the wider verbal discourse that it's a part of. Just as I probably wouldn't feel as uncomfortable with a women constantly talking about bitches, or a gay rapper talking about fags, it's pretty clear that black people use the N word differently than white people do.
Hear that everyone? Everyone who tells me to stop bashing Chinamen should now STFU.
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motlke's parents must have really beat the chinese out of him when he was a kid...
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is awesome32277 Posts
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"Thread derailment in under five posts 101" by Teamliquid.net. -_-*
Ready2Esc: I was not trying to argue with you, I was trying to make a point in the discussion. What I was basically trying to say was, just because you don't find the N word offensive at all, because it has no meaning in your culture or you don't feel guilty in any way, doesn't make it right nor do you have any reason to use it anyway. But maybe that's just me. I don't approve of the word being used by white persons, just as you guys try to justify it. Let's leave it at that.
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On April 18 2007 00:41 Cpt Obvious wrote:
"Thread derailment in under five posts 101" by Teamliquid.net. -_-*
Ready2Esc: I was not trying to argue with you, I was trying to make a point in the discussion. What I was basically trying to say was, just because you don't find the N word offensive at all, because it has no meaning in your culture or you don't feel guilty in any way, doesn't make it right nor do you have any reason to use it anyway. But maybe that's just me. I don't approve of the word being used by white persons, just as you guys try to justify it. Let's leave it at that.
I understand all that but I wasn't arguing this. (reread my posts if you want I'm not gonna repeat myself since I've droped this subject)
I don't care about the N word so I won't use it. In the past I may have said it on a few occasions jokingly but since this word doesn't mean anything to me I might as well stop using it if ppl feel that offended by it.
(Of course this only applies to the forums since as I said there are basically no black ppl to be offended in my country so I could say it as much as I want here.)
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
someone make moltke's avatar a chinese flag
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Osaka27154 Posts
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EPT
