|
|
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 06:57 PaleMan wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. nice, i MUST quote this especially nice when it comes from a citizen of EU member there you have it ukrainians you will be used and abused and then strong EU countries will say "Ukraine isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU" On December 16 2013 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals. i wanted to write the same but you did it first, so i just quote you Well of course they have fucked up things like obviously racist neo nazi parades because they're former USSR and the values of a civilised society are still new to them. Joining the EU isn't going to instantly fix the fact that they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite and I'm not sure why you think it would, the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly. The EU isn't about to invade Estonia and tell them not to have any more parades, that's not what it does. It doesn't mean you should keep hanging out with Russia though, Russia is the backwards autocracy that caused the mess.
On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite
better take some history lessons and then come back
On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly.
10 years is more than enough
|
United States43977 Posts
If 10 years is long enough then how the hell is Russia still a backwards shithole ruled by autocrats 22 years after the end of the USSR?
|
It makes sense that Russian schools don't teach every part of their dark past but the USSR did some serious nasty shit under Stalin. No need to be so defensive about it, it's not your fault, you weren't there.
On December 16 2013 08:08 KwarK wrote:
If 10 years is long enough then how the hell is Russia still a backwards shithole ruled by autocrats 22 years after the end of the USSR?
What the fuck dude?
|
|
|
United States43977 Posts
It's a fair question, if he expects Estonia to become a modern first world country with all that goes with it after a decade in the EU then how is Russia, after 22 years of freedom from the Soviets, still as corrupt, bigoted, backwards, tyrannical and generally cancerous as it always has been?
|
On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 06:57 PaleMan wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. nice, i MUST quote this especially nice when it comes from a citizen of EU member there you have it ukrainians you will be used and abused and then strong EU countries will say "Ukraine isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU" On December 16 2013 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals. i wanted to write the same but you did it first, so i just quote you Well of course they have fucked up things like obviously racist neo nazi parades because they're former USSR and the values of a civilised society are still new to them. Joining the EU isn't going to instantly fix the fact that they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite and I'm not sure why you think it would, the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly. The EU isn't about to invade Estonia and tell them not to have any more parades, that's not what it does. It doesn't mean you should keep hanging out with Russia though, Russia is the backwards autocracy that caused the mess.
Wow this is one of the most insulting posts I've ever read here. So you think people from the Eastern bloc aren't civilised? Hate to unleash the truth, but let's please take a look at some Paris riots or religious extremists in France, or hell just look at Daniel Cohn Bendit and his gang and then judge Estonia.
EU then how is Russia, after 22 years, still as corrupt, bigoted, backwards, tyrannical and generally cancerous as it always has been?
You must have some serious attitude problems with Russia. I could name a lot of other countries that fit that description. Even yours. Or even the USA. But it's not the point because a final verdict on a country is extremely rarely so black/white.
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Paris riots
mostly by "ethnic" "youths" that are "religious"
|
On December 16 2013 08:20 419 wrote:mostly by "ethnic" "youths" that are "religious"
Yeah. I'm sure they set an example the rest of the world should follow!
|
United States43977 Posts
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together.
|
On December 16 2013 08:10 KwarK wrote:
It's a fair question, if he expects Estonia to become a modern first world country with all that goes with it after a decade in the EU then how is Russia, after 22 years, still as corrupt, bigoted, backwards, tyrannical and generally cancerous as it always has been?
Estonia, you mean that small country that's in the fucking European Union? How could it not get rich quickly? Plus, its transition to a market economy was helped by the west and it was relatively simple because of just how small the country is.
Meanwhile, Russia can't have a stable government but it's not entirely their fault. They have an old tradition of autocracy, a ridiculously vast territory full of indigenous people and very little industry. They're plagued by corruption because until someone comes up with a miraculous plan, it's the only way to have a consolidated power. And, they've been largely unable to integrate the world economy except with their energy trade. Europe will buy products manufactured in Estonia, not in Russia.
I'd say Russia did wonders for themselves since 1997, considering that during the Afghanistan war and before, the soldiers would literally sell Russian firearms and stuff because of how badly the regime was doing. And now, the government is cracking down on corrupt oligarchs to some extent. But there's really no easy way.
You say Russia is a shithole, but people live there. You should have a little respect. You can't easily transition from being the center of the USSR, with a highly diverse population and the biggest territory in the world, to being a happy consolidated democracy. It's easy to look at Putin and say he's doing a shit job but try to slap your sunshine democracy on there and you'll see a coup.
Your Queen is a joke. 
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
i feel they are about five 7-year plans away from modernity, maybe six
|
On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together.
Civilisation /=/ GDP
You either hate the Eastern Bloc for some reason or you are ignorant of European history.
|
United States43977 Posts
On December 16 2013 08:29 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Civilisation /=/ GDP You either hate the Eastern Bloc for some reason or you are ignorant of European history.
I suspect my knowledge of European history massively surpasses yours but we're getting off topic here so we should continue it by PM if you want to get into that.
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
somehow I feel like Russia wouldn't have had the problems it faces today if they had been more aggressive in suppressing counter-revolutionaries, saboteurs, and wreckers and deporting or rehabilitating seditionary elements, maybe with the use of some sort of camp, where they could work.
|
On December 16 2013 08:10 KwarK wrote:
It's a fair question, if he expects Estonia to become a modern first world country with all that goes with it after a decade in the EU then how is Russia, after 22 years of freedom from the Soviets, still as corrupt, bigoted, backwards, tyrannical and generally cancerous as it always has been?
KwarK, you need to read more RT.com, the newsflash is that Russia (and especially Putin) are shining beacons of freedom, peace and democracy who are under attack by foreign interests. The Ukraine just has to get in on that!
And we have ourselves a Serbian in this very thread who can verify it (using canned anti-US routines nonetheless!).
|
On December 16 2013 06:54 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 06:50 maybenexttime wrote:
Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals. maybe you will link me to some official statements on that matter? maybe there was some investigation on soviet war crimes and there was official judgment? oh there is none?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany
|
There is unconfirmed information that after a meeting with US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, Rinat Ahmetov (richest oligarh in Ukraine) was warned about heavy financial consequences for him and some other pro-Yanukovich oligarhs. The threat includes sanctions against western-based subsidiaries of Ahmetov's Metinivest, as well as personal assests. Presumably Nuland went as far as demanding Ahmetov's and other big shots to influence pro-Yanukovich Party of Regions into supporting reelections of the Parliament and of the President. The almost radical steps have been made after Yanukovich has been constantly lying to US officials promising to withhold the use of force and to start the negotiations process, as a result US has stopped viewing Yanukovich as a reliable negotiations partner. Presumably only hours after the talk a round table was held for the first time involving both officials (including Yanukovich and Azarov, the PM) and leaders of opposition. Also presumably after the talk Ahmetov had a flight to London, where he and his family are tax residents, but his plane was denied landing.
Ahmetov recent words on the situation
+ Show Spoiler +But he said people had taken to the streets to "look for answers" after Yanukovych's decision not to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union.
"The fact that peaceful people took to the streets for peaceful demonstrations means that Ukraine is a free, democratic country. Ukraine will not turn off this road. This is very good," Akhmetov said.
He condemned the violent clashes at some of the protests, without singling out either protesters or security forces. "The fact that people suffered is unacceptable," the tycoon said.
Akhmetov -- who according to the Ukrainian edition of Forbes magazine is the country's richest man with a $14.9 billion fortune -- said it was important now to have a "balanced approach" and for all sides to sit down for negotiations.
"Politicians, government officials, the opposition, and moral leaders of the country must sit down at the negotiating table and make a decision we will be proud of," he said.
Encouraging Ukraine's leaders to take brave and potentially unpopular decisions, he said: "While politicians may lose their ratings at the negotiating table, the most important thing is to ensure that the rating of Ukraine goes up."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gKAquhT01Vt8tGhD6Vv52mmJprJA?docId=94f42cc2-3888-4099-89ff-56a36495cad3
http://censor.net.ua/news/263364/ssha_trebuyut_ot_ahmetova_i_klyueva_podnyat_partiyinyyi_bunt_protiv_yanukovicha_inache_sanktsii
|
On December 16 2013 08:23 Djzapz wrote:
You say Russia is a shithole, but people live there. You should have a little respect. You can't easily transition from being the center of the USSR, with a highly diverse population and the biggest territory in the world, to being a happy consolidated democracy. It's easy to look at Putin and say he's doing a shit job but try to slap your sunshine democracy on there and you'll see a coup.
Sorry but Russia in it's current state is a shithole. The country is run by a corrupt president who systematically locks oppositional forces away, runs ridiculous state founded mass media that is literally brainwashing the people, and the economy is in shambles compared to other countries which indeed have cached up in the post Soviet era.
Not even to speak about the fact that the country is systematically discriminating minorities. Hell the country has basically banned any act of homosexuality in public and the people are so brainwashed that 85% of the population even think that's awesome.
I could name a lot of other countries that fit that description. Even yours.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
That's the world corruption index. The US ranks 19/177. See the big red country on the right side of the map? That's Russia, it ranks 127/177.
To state that the US is even remotely as screwed as Russia is outright delusional. You don't even need to listen to any outsiders, just look at the number of intellectuals that have left the country in the last 20 years.
|
On December 16 2013 08:02 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2013 06:57 PaleMan wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. nice, i MUST quote this especially nice when it comes from a citizen of EU member there you have it ukrainians you will be used and abused and then strong EU countries will say "Ukraine isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU" On December 16 2013 06:55 EtherealBlade wrote:On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote:
Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU. That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals. i wanted to write the same but you did it first, so i just quote you Well of course they have fucked up things like obviously racist neo nazi parades because they're former USSR and the values of a civilised society are still new to them. Joining the EU isn't going to instantly fix the fact that they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite and I'm not sure why you think it would, the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly. The EU isn't about to invade Estonia and tell them not to have any more parades, that's not what it does. It doesn't mean you should keep hanging out with Russia though, Russia is the backwards autocracy that caused the mess. Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite better take some history lessons and then come back Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 07:51 KwarK wrote:the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly. 10 years is more than enough
Ten years is not nearly long enough. Look at any country that goes through radical change and see how long it takes. The obvious one this week is South Africa. Twenty years since the end of apartheid, but the country still has a lot of problems. Or looks at Zimbabwe, they are only just starting to get their shit together. Heck, look at China which still does not have a democracy. Ten years is nothing.
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Or looks at Zimbabwe, they are only just starting to get their shit together.
wat
"starting" would be mugabe dying. and even then it is a coinflip
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
