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On December 14 2013 07:26 Vo-one wrote:
I'm glad that someone cares about us here.
We had a panel discussion today - nodody decided anything. (Oh if you only knew our prime minister - the ukrainian language he's speaking is a thing everyone make jokes about.)
Euromaidan is not about EU anymore. It's about freedom! Freedom of Yanuko**ch clan first of all.
Slava Ukraini!
You are just crazy. Throwing meaningless rhetoric around doesn't solve anything. Who's going to finance the budget after Russia waives their discount prices? You just magically start profiting from an "open Eurozone"? This is not realistic. Unless someone starts investing heavily (like they did with hopeless Poland at the time) there is no chance Ukraine improves. You don't even make anything of value neither are known for having skilled labor force. What's the idea?
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On December 14 2013 09:46 usedtocare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 05:22 opisska wrote:On December 04 2013 05:09 Shiragaku wrote:The same thing happened in Moldova http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_"Pro_Europe"_demonstration_in_MoldovaWhat makes me curious however is if this would be a good idea for both nations seeing how the dream was not exactly fulfilled in Bulgaria and Greece and given that this is still a scary time for the Eurozone. What the hell do you mean by "dream was not exactly fullfiled"? Do you have any idea how dramaticaly has life changed in the past 15 years in Bulgary, for the large part thanks to the investments from the EU and the pressure from EU to cut down on corruption and establish a woking system of law? I have not too much personal experience with Bulgary, but I now personaly some Romanians and the fate of the two countries is very similiar - 15 years ago, some parts of Romania weren't really safe to walk around. I was there back then and talked with people who lived off $100 a month and whatever they were able to grow in the garden and shoot in the forest. Today it is, for the most part, a standart european country. Yes, they are not Germany-rich, but it really doesn't make any sense to expect such a level of equalisation after losing half a century to a corrupt authoritative regime. And Greece, which has been living off European money for decades until the bubble bursted? If anything, these experiences show that enetering the EU is extremely beneficial for a poor country. The only problem is when you become too greedy on "social comforts" without putting in the work to back it up, but after the Greek lesson, people are much more careful about that. Yes, I have a long list of things that I hate about the EU and at the moment (meaning, after we got bilions of Euro in sturctural support) I won't mind getting out of it, but for Ukraine, it is the one and only saving grace. Rose-tinted glasses. "Do you have any idea how dramatically has life changed in the past 15 years in..." goes both ways. I'd say in Russia it changed even more dramatically. Bulgaria is not doing too good. Lets not bring up Spain and Greece either, I don't see how Ukraine will outperform these integral parts of European Union. I'm not taking sides but you have to consider the consequences. It is very likely that what Russia currently offers is a better deal. Borrowing money doesn't always work well.
The problems in Greece are their own fault, not on EU part. When accessing the EU they have deliberately provided false information regarding their national debt and overall economic situation. Didn't seem much back then but those things tend to blow in your face in the long term (especially that 2 major crisises hit the world recently and most countries - even those considered rich - weren't prepared for that and suffered heavily). I'm still observing how things develop for Spain, Italy and Ireland since they seem to be having some problems on that front too.
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On December 14 2013 09:46 usedtocare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 05:22 opisska wrote:On December 04 2013 05:09 Shiragaku wrote:The same thing happened in Moldova http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_"Pro_Europe"_demonstration_in_MoldovaWhat makes me curious however is if this would be a good idea for both nations seeing how the dream was not exactly fulfilled in Bulgaria and Greece and given that this is still a scary time for the Eurozone. What the hell do you mean by "dream was not exactly fullfiled"? Do you have any idea how dramaticaly has life changed in the past 15 years in Bulgary, for the large part thanks to the investments from the EU and the pressure from EU to cut down on corruption and establish a woking system of law? I have not too much personal experience with Bulgary, but I now personaly some Romanians and the fate of the two countries is very similiar - 15 years ago, some parts of Romania weren't really safe to walk around. I was there back then and talked with people who lived off $100 a month and whatever they were able to grow in the garden and shoot in the forest. Today it is, for the most part, a standart european country. Yes, they are not Germany-rich, but it really doesn't make any sense to expect such a level of equalisation after losing half a century to a corrupt authoritative regime. And Greece, which has been living off European money for decades until the bubble bursted? If anything, these experiences show that enetering the EU is extremely beneficial for a poor country. The only problem is when you become too greedy on "social comforts" without putting in the work to back it up, but after the Greek lesson, people are much more careful about that. Yes, I have a long list of things that I hate about the EU and at the moment (meaning, after we got bilions of Euro in sturctural support) I won't mind getting out of it, but for Ukraine, it is the one and only saving grace. Rose-tinted glasses. "Do you have any idea how dramatically has life changed in the past 15 years in..." goes both ways. I'd say in Russia it changed even more dramatically. Bulgaria is not doing too good. Lets not bring up Spain and Greece either, I don't see how Ukraine will outperform these integral parts of European Union. I'm not taking sides but you have to consider the consequences. It is very likely that what Russia currently offers is a better deal. Borrowing money doesn't always work well.
What is it exactly that Russia currently offers that could make it a better deal?
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Protection from Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine.
Just joking about the above. What Russia are offering is cheap gas that Russia can provide, only that in 10 years time it'll probably be more expensive than european shale gas.
The thing is, you shouldn't confuse what is good for Ukraine and what is good for the corrupted elite of Ukraine. What the corrupted elite of Ukraine recieve from Russia is lots of continued opportunity for money to be siphoned away from Ukraine and hidden away in offshore accounts.
Ultimately a move towards a trade agreement with EU was seen as a way for the rule of law. Not doing so was seen as throwing a big fuck you to the people of Ukraine, we don't need respect the rule of law or human rights.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does.
oh noes
read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plant
of course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc.
the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine
and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis
srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times
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On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times
Hahaha, you have no idea what energical safety actually means.
srsly use your brain at least some times
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 15 2013 00:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Protection from Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine.
The thing is, you shouldn't confuse what is good for Ukraine and what is good for the corrupted elite of Ukraine. What the corrupted elite of Ukraine recieve from Russia is lots of continued opportunity for money to be siphoned away from Ukraine and hidden away in offshore accounts.
Looks like you really don't have a clue about corrupted ukrainian elite
Their funds stored in european and US banks and offshores
its ukrainian oligarchs who force EU assosiation of Ukraine or their funds will be frozen and taken away from them
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On December 15 2013 03:14 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 00:39 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Protection from Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine.
The thing is, you shouldn't confuse what is good for Ukraine and what is good for the corrupted elite of Ukraine. What the corrupted elite of Ukraine recieve from Russia is lots of continued opportunity for money to be siphoned away from Ukraine and hidden away in offshore accounts.
Looks like you really don't have a clue about corrupted ukrainian elite Their funds stored in european and US banks and offshores its ukrainian oligarchs who force EU assosiation of Ukraine or their funds will be frozen and taken away from them
I don't have a clue about this at all. How do you figure that?
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On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times
No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School?
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School?
what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built?
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On December 15 2013 19:16 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School? what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built?
I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 15 2013 19:18 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 19:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School? what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built? I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown.
right you are!
here is the list of russian (not even CIS, only russian nuclear power plants):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Russia
a little excerpt from that list:
Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years)
Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years)
Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years)
I took these from the list cause all of them have the same type of reactor as Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plant
as you can see they are fully operational
Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid
there was no real reason for closure of this plant
but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it
of course it is not right with EU
they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries
so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food
thats how eurointegration works
Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries
they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically
here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012
Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..."
Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...”
W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”.
F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”.
W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”.
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So Senator John McCain visiting Ukraine to spread freedom... yeah.
“Ukrainians should not be forced to choose between a future in the west or the east. They should be free to chart their nation's future as they choose, in the best interest of Ukraine's citizens”
I'm sure you know the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart McCain... Libya, Syria and Egypt are all basking in the paradises you have brought down upon them 
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On December 15 2013 20:16 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 19:18 Crushinator wrote:On December 15 2013 19:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School? what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built? I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown. right you are! here is the list of russian (not even CIS, only russian nuclear power plants): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Russiaa little excerpt from that list: Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years) Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years) Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years) I took these from the list cause all of them have the same type of reactor as Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plantas you can see they are fully operational Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid there was no real reason for closure of this plant but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it of course it is not right with EU they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food thats how eurointegration works Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012 Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..." Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...” W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”. F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”. W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”.
Rofl. By bringing this shit into this topic you exactly have shown what is your intent here. Really, you think that two people speak for the whole nation? The supposed "joke" was supposed to be a satire on stereotypes. They went too far with it. Too bad you didn't write what were repercusions these two guys brought on themselves. Newsflash for you: they were kicked out of their jobs and faced criminal charges on ethnic discrimination. Too bad you won't understand what is it, you probably don't have these laws in Russia.
EDIT: Not to mention the amount of jokes Germans had on Poles (mostly on based thievery), and probably still have. Same goes the another way, about German women here. Hell we a have a lot of jokes about Russians here, and it means shit. I do not understand what exactly you tried to prove here.
Another newsflash for you. Ukrainians are already a cheap labor force in large numbers in Poland and by joining EU they may have chance to change that in the future. Perhaps not near, but still nearer than when going into the club with Russia.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 15 2013 20:30 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 20:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 19:18 Crushinator wrote:On December 15 2013 19:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School? what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built? I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown. right you are! here is the list of russian (not even CIS, only russian nuclear power plants): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Russiaa little excerpt from that list: Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years) Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years) Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years) I took these from the list cause all of them have the same type of reactor as Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plantas you can see they are fully operational Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid there was no real reason for closure of this plant but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it of course it is not right with EU they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food thats how eurointegration works Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012 Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..." Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...” W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”. F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”. W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”. Rofl. By bringing this shit into this topic you exactly have shown what is your intent here. Really, you think that two people speak for the whole nation? The supposed "joke" was supposed to be a satire on stereotypes. They went too far with it. Too bad you didn't write what were repercusions these two guys brought on themselves. Newsflash for you: they were kicked out of their jobs and faced criminal charges on ethnic discrimination. Too bad you won't understand what is it, you probably don't have these laws in Russia. EDIT: Not to mention the amount of jokes Germans had on Poles (mostly on based thievery), and probably still have. Same goes the another way, about German women here. Hell we a have a lot of jokes about Russians here, and it means shit. I do not understand what exactly you tried to prove here. Another newsflash for you. Ukrainians are already a cheap labor force in large numbers in Poland and by joining EU they may have chance to change that in the future. Perhaps not near, but still nearer than when going into the club with Russia.
newsflash for you: ukrainians become cheap labor force since they become independent (1991)
thats how democracy and capitalism work
when Ukraine reunites with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan in CU they will have no reason to immigrate in Europe to work for food cause they will have energy safety (cheap gas), work places (all CU members will help to re-industrialize Ukraine), money (CU members actually need what Ukraine still able to produce) etc.
That EU titanic will crush in ~2017-2020 anyway. Britain's prime minister already said on several occasions Britain will leave EU.
Germany and France not pleased also - they are tired of carrying dead weight of Greece, Portugal, Spain, small countries on their shoulder.
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On December 15 2013 20:19 zeo wrote:So Senator John McCain visiting Ukraine to spread freedom... yeah. Show nested quote +“Ukrainians should not be forced to choose between a future in the west or the east. They should be free to chart their nation's future as they choose, in the best interest of Ukraine's citizens” I'm sure you know the best interests of the Ukrainian people at heart McCain... Libya, Syria and Egypt are all basking in the paradises you have brought down upon them
It really is a very bad time for USA to enter the conflict. They have already somewhat pointed Ukraine towards EU associaltion with their "no violence" stance. McCain is acting like a bull in a china shop here...
In other news commissioner Fule has stopped the negotiation process after an increasing divide between words and actions from the ukrainian government. And a harder slap "Their argumnets have no basis in reality".
Rare social media source.
It is a necessary step to increase the pressure on the ukrainian government. Next large step will have to be a deadline with some sort of ultimatum after Yanukovych returns to the negotiation table.
Also, why do we listen to the Pravda noise in the background? It seems like a throwback to the '80s with the exceptionalism of communistic values. It is an illusion since mother Russia is nothing even close to that anymore.
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On December 15 2013 20:51 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 20:30 Roman666 wrote:On December 15 2013 20:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 19:18 Crushinator wrote:On December 15 2013 19:16 PaleMan wrote:On December 15 2013 09:11 usedtocare wrote:On December 15 2013 02:08 PaleMan wrote:On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote:On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote:
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable. Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does. oh noes read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plantof course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School? what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built? I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown. right you are! here is the list of russian (not even CIS, only russian nuclear power plants): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Russiaa little excerpt from that list: Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years) Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years) Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years) I took these from the list cause all of them have the same type of reactor as Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_Nuclear_Power_Plantas you can see they are fully operational Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid there was no real reason for closure of this plant but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it of course it is not right with EU they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food thats how eurointegration works Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012 Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..." Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...” W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”. F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”. W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”. Rofl. By bringing this shit into this topic you exactly have shown what is your intent here. Really, you think that two people speak for the whole nation? The supposed "joke" was supposed to be a satire on stereotypes. They went too far with it. Too bad you didn't write what were repercusions these two guys brought on themselves. Newsflash for you: they were kicked out of their jobs and faced criminal charges on ethnic discrimination. Too bad you won't understand what is it, you probably don't have these laws in Russia. EDIT: Not to mention the amount of jokes Germans had on Poles (mostly on based thievery), and probably still have. Same goes the another way, about German women here. Hell we a have a lot of jokes about Russians here, and it means shit. I do not understand what exactly you tried to prove here. Another newsflash for you. Ukrainians are already a cheap labor force in large numbers in Poland and by joining EU they may have chance to change that in the future. Perhaps not near, but still nearer than when going into the club with Russia. newsflash for you: ukrainians become cheap labor force since they become independent (1991) thats how democracy and capitalism work when Ukraine reunites with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan in CU they will have no reason to immigrate in Europe to work for food cause they will have energy safety (cheap gas), work places (all CU members will help to re-industrialize Ukraine), money (CU members actually need what Ukraine still able to produce) etc. That EU titanic will crush in ~2017-2020 anyway. Britain's prime minister already said on several occasions Britain will leave EU. Germany and France not pleased also - they are tired of carrying dead weight of Greece, Portugal, Spain, small countries on their shoulder.
Tell me again, why then Ukrainians work illegally in EU instead of Russia? Russia is such a wonderland, why won't they go there?
I feel I fed you long enough now. Bye.
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Does anyone have any sources about these protests outside of Kiev? Everything I read mentions 300-400 protesters and that the majority of the population resent the protests going on in Kiev.
EDIT: From what I can read the eastern third of the country (like Donetsk) is pro-Russian, while the western third (like Lviv) is pro-EU. The central third is half-half. I still cant find out anything about protests outside of Kiev. What are the numbers?
I feel that whatever the outcome it won't be the 'will of the Ukrainian people', why isn't there a push for a referendum?
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On December 15 2013 21:54 zeo wrote:
Does anyone have any sources about these protests outside of Kiev? Everything I read mentions 300-400 protesters and that the majority of the population resent the protests going on in Kiev.
EDIT: From what I can read the eastern third of the country (like Donetsk) is pro-Russian, while the western third (like Lviv) is pro-EU. The central third is half-half. I still cant find out anything about protests outside of Kiev. What are the numbers?
I still feel that whatever the outcome it won't be the 'will of the Ukrainian people', why isn't there a push for a referendum?
The combined number of protesters outside of Kiev is only a small fraction of the the number of protesters in Kiev. That alone doesn't say much about the number of people that support the cause, ofcourse. I won't even pretend to know what is best for Ukraine in economic terms, but I hope the actions of the government can be in line with the will of the Ukrainian people.
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On December 05 2013 16:01 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 14:28 MoltkeWarding wrote:The question is what role the Ukraine is to play if integrated into the European trade area. Currently, Ukraine's metallurgical industry is by far the country's largest source of foreign currency, accounting for about a third of total exports. Industrial products in total probably account for two-thirds. The only other significant export is agriculture, which is even more dependent on the Russian market. Say the figures are as follows: - Between 1993 and 2011, the Ukraine has reduced its natural gas dependency from 3.2 trillion cubic feet to 1.6 trillion per annum. - This has been accomplished by a corresponding reduction of Ukrainian consumption, from a peak of 3.9 trillion cubic feet in 1993, to 2.3 trillion in 2011 -The Ukraine's natural gas dependency is therefore close to two-thirds, whereas her oil dependency is approximately three-quarters -Ukrainian Industry accounts for close to half of her natural gas consumption. From these, we can gauge that the old Soviet symbiosis between Ukrainian metal and Russian energy has never been dissolved. Industry is dependent on Russian fossil fuels, Russian fossil fuels can only be paid for with industrial export. Within this symbiosis, the Ukraine cannot even hold its own without reverting to old Soviet trade patterns, with Russia overpaying for Ukrainian exports, while subsidising Ukrainian energy. The hopelessness of this position is self-evident, and people will be naturally excited by the mirage of alternatives - any alternative. ... Concerning the short-term costs-benefits of the EU's association agreement, the immediate costs of compliance to the pact for the Ukraine will be enormous: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10483303/Ukraine-EU-trade-deal-QandA-why-Ukraines-refusal-to-sign-is-significant.htmlKiev estimates that upgrading to EU standards would cost Ukraine €14.7bn a year. Regardless of whether this is exaggerated, it will be an enormous sum set against total state revenues of €32 billion, against which there is already a 4% deficit. It is clear that the EU must bankroll the Ukraine's accession, but in Vilnius it has only promised €600 million. The bidding was simply too low for the plan to be realistic. You realize that no amount of money pumped into currently corrupt Ukraine's economy will change anything? The whole point of association agreement was not about amount of money EU will give to Ukraine, it was all about giving chance to the Ukraine. Joining CU with Russia will destroy the Ukraine's economy, making it even more dependent on Russia. Oligarchy in Ukraine has no interest in joining it, the best for the oligarchy would be status quo. It is them who call the shots in the country now, and that is why Ukraine did not join CU and will not join it. They would not be able to withstand the competition with their richer Russian oligarchs. There is a power play in motion in Ukraine, with Yanukovych trying to assert his power, keeping the oligarchs on a leash by not signing the agreement and threatening them with CU. Given the two choices it is better for Ukrainian oligarchs to join EU than to enter a free trade zone with Russia, where they would be bought off and their businesses trampled into the ground.
You are seriously deluded if you think anything different will happen if Ukraine joins the free trade zone of the EU. What happened at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic, during the infamous shock therapy?! All our industry was bought out and destroyed by western companies (not saying they are entirely to blame, obviously, our politicians share at least half of the blame). Now 70-90% of Poland's industry, trade and banking system are controlled by foreign capital. The majority of profits are transfered out of the country, people are severely underpaid compared to their western counterparts. The prices are not much lower than in Western European countries, while the wages are much, much lower. The share wages have in GDP in case of Poland is somewhere around 40%, whereas in countries with their own industry it is 60-70%.
Right now Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place. There is no good solution.
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EPT
