On December 05 2013 14:28 MoltkeWarding wrote: The question is what role the Ukraine is to play if integrated into the European trade area. Currently, Ukraine's metallurgical industry is by far the country's largest source of foreign currency, accounting for about a third of total exports. Industrial products in total probably account for two-thirds. The only other significant export is agriculture, which is even more dependent on the Russian market.
Say the figures are as follows:
- Between 1993 and 2011, the Ukraine has reduced its natural gas dependency from 3.2 trillion cubic feet to 1.6 trillion per annum. - This has been accomplished by a corresponding reduction of Ukrainian consumption, from a peak of 3.9 trillion cubic feet in 1993, to 2.3 trillion in 2011 -The Ukraine's natural gas dependency is therefore close to two-thirds, whereas her oil dependency is approximately three-quarters -Ukrainian Industry accounts for close to half of her natural gas consumption.
From these, we can gauge that the old Soviet symbiosis between Ukrainian metal and Russian energy has never been dissolved. Industry is dependent on Russian fossil fuels, Russian fossil fuels can only be paid for with industrial export.
Within this symbiosis, the Ukraine cannot even hold its own without reverting to old Soviet trade patterns, with Russia overpaying for Ukrainian exports, while subsidising Ukrainian energy. The hopelessness of this position is self-evident, and people will be naturally excited by the mirage of alternatives - any alternative.
Kiev estimates that upgrading to EU standards would cost Ukraine €14.7bn a year.
Regardless of whether this is exaggerated, it will be an enormous sum set against total state revenues of €32 billion, against which there is already a 4% deficit.
It is clear that the EU must bankroll the Ukraine's accession, but in Vilnius it has only promised €600 million. The bidding was simply too low for the plan to be realistic.
You realize that no amount of money pumped into currently corrupt Ukraine's economy will change anything? The whole point of association agreement was not about amount of money EU will give to Ukraine, it was all about giving chance to the Ukraine.
Joining CU with Russia will destroy the Ukraine's economy, making it even more dependent on Russia. Oligarchy in Ukraine has no interest in joining it, the best for the oligarchy would be status quo. It is them who call the shots in the country now, and that is why Ukraine did not join CU and will not join it. They would not be able to withstand the competition with their richer Russian oligarchs. There is a power play in motion in Ukraine, with Yanukovych trying to assert his power, keeping the oligarchs on a leash by not signing the agreement and threatening them with CU. Given the two choices it is better for Ukrainian oligarchs to join EU than to enter a free trade zone with Russia, where they would be bought off and their businesses trampled into the ground.
You are seriously deluded if you think anything different will happen if Ukraine joins the free trade zone of the EU. What happened at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic, during the infamous shock therapy?! All our industry was bought out and destroyed by western companies (not saying they are entirely to blame, obviously, our politicians share at least half of the blame). Now 70-90% of Poland's industry, trade and banking system are controlled by foreign capital. The majority of profits are transfered out of the country, people are severely underpaid compared to their western counterparts. The prices are not much lower than in Western European countries, while the wages are much, much lower. The share wages have in GDP in case of Poland is somewhere around 40%, whereas in countries with their own industry it is 60-70%.
Right now Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place. There is no good solution.
The difference is, that what you described was a privatization of the failed state owned industry, because there was no private sector at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic. I doubt the guys like Rinat Akhmetov will allow their business to get owned by western companies while with Russia it would go to wild west. These two situations are not comparable, it makes no sense to compare it.
On December 05 2013 14:28 MoltkeWarding wrote: The question is what role the Ukraine is to play if integrated into the European trade area. Currently, Ukraine's metallurgical industry is by far the country's largest source of foreign currency, accounting for about a third of total exports. Industrial products in total probably account for two-thirds. The only other significant export is agriculture, which is even more dependent on the Russian market.
Say the figures are as follows:
- Between 1993 and 2011, the Ukraine has reduced its natural gas dependency from 3.2 trillion cubic feet to 1.6 trillion per annum. - This has been accomplished by a corresponding reduction of Ukrainian consumption, from a peak of 3.9 trillion cubic feet in 1993, to 2.3 trillion in 2011 -The Ukraine's natural gas dependency is therefore close to two-thirds, whereas her oil dependency is approximately three-quarters -Ukrainian Industry accounts for close to half of her natural gas consumption.
From these, we can gauge that the old Soviet symbiosis between Ukrainian metal and Russian energy has never been dissolved. Industry is dependent on Russian fossil fuels, Russian fossil fuels can only be paid for with industrial export.
Within this symbiosis, the Ukraine cannot even hold its own without reverting to old Soviet trade patterns, with Russia overpaying for Ukrainian exports, while subsidising Ukrainian energy. The hopelessness of this position is self-evident, and people will be naturally excited by the mirage of alternatives - any alternative.
Kiev estimates that upgrading to EU standards would cost Ukraine €14.7bn a year.
Regardless of whether this is exaggerated, it will be an enormous sum set against total state revenues of €32 billion, against which there is already a 4% deficit.
It is clear that the EU must bankroll the Ukraine's accession, but in Vilnius it has only promised €600 million. The bidding was simply too low for the plan to be realistic.
You realize that no amount of money pumped into currently corrupt Ukraine's economy will change anything? The whole point of association agreement was not about amount of money EU will give to Ukraine, it was all about giving chance to the Ukraine.
Joining CU with Russia will destroy the Ukraine's economy, making it even more dependent on Russia. Oligarchy in Ukraine has no interest in joining it, the best for the oligarchy would be status quo. It is them who call the shots in the country now, and that is why Ukraine did not join CU and will not join it. They would not be able to withstand the competition with their richer Russian oligarchs. There is a power play in motion in Ukraine, with Yanukovych trying to assert his power, keeping the oligarchs on a leash by not signing the agreement and threatening them with CU. Given the two choices it is better for Ukrainian oligarchs to join EU than to enter a free trade zone with Russia, where they would be bought off and their businesses trampled into the ground.
You are seriously deluded if you think anything different will happen if Ukraine joins the free trade zone of the EU. What happened at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic, during the infamous shock therapy?! All our industry was bought out and destroyed by western companies (not saying they are entirely to blame, obviously, our politicians share at least half of the blame). Now 70-90% of Poland's industry, trade and banking system are controlled by foreign capital. The majority of profits are transfered out of the country, people are severely underpaid compared to their western counterparts. The prices are not much lower than in Western European countries, while the wages are much, much lower. The share wages have in GDP in case of Poland is somewhere around 40%, whereas in countries with their own industry it is 60-70%.
Right now Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place. There is no good solution.
The difference is, that what you described was a privatization of the failed state owned industry, because there was no private sector at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic. I doubt the guys like Rinat Akhmetov will allow their business to get owned by western companies while with Russia it would go to wild west. These two situations are not comparable, it makes no sense to compare it.
You are forgetting about (or purposefully omitting) many prospective companies that shared the same fate. E.g. Elwro. Many foreign companies that bought out Polish companies were granted enormous tax exemptions, amounting to sums greater than the costs of aquisition... It was not privatization - it was an act of treason on our politicians' part and colonialization on the part of foreign companies involved. Not to mention the fact that many of the experts that worked as advisors (to Polish companies/the government) in this whole mess later on turned out to have also been on the payroll of said foreign companies, purposefully underestimating the valuation of the companies that were being "privatized"...
You're also naively falling for the false dychotomy propagated by the proponents of the changes that ruined our country. It's not like maintaining the centrally planned economy or completely opening our market for foreign entities - only to become economically colonized - were the only options. Poland could've employed protectionist policies until its industry became at least remotely competitive with western companies. Only than opening the market would've made sense. I don't know a single country which has built its prosperity by opening its market completely. On the other hand, the list of countries that employed protectionist policies to do that is rather impressive: the USA, Germany, the UK, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland, Finland. I could go on...
On December 05 2013 14:28 MoltkeWarding wrote: The question is what role the Ukraine is to play if integrated into the European trade area. Currently, Ukraine's metallurgical industry is by far the country's largest source of foreign currency, accounting for about a third of total exports. Industrial products in total probably account for two-thirds. The only other significant export is agriculture, which is even more dependent on the Russian market.
Say the figures are as follows:
- Between 1993 and 2011, the Ukraine has reduced its natural gas dependency from 3.2 trillion cubic feet to 1.6 trillion per annum. - This has been accomplished by a corresponding reduction of Ukrainian consumption, from a peak of 3.9 trillion cubic feet in 1993, to 2.3 trillion in 2011 -The Ukraine's natural gas dependency is therefore close to two-thirds, whereas her oil dependency is approximately three-quarters -Ukrainian Industry accounts for close to half of her natural gas consumption.
From these, we can gauge that the old Soviet symbiosis between Ukrainian metal and Russian energy has never been dissolved. Industry is dependent on Russian fossil fuels, Russian fossil fuels can only be paid for with industrial export.
Within this symbiosis, the Ukraine cannot even hold its own without reverting to old Soviet trade patterns, with Russia overpaying for Ukrainian exports, while subsidising Ukrainian energy. The hopelessness of this position is self-evident, and people will be naturally excited by the mirage of alternatives - any alternative.
Kiev estimates that upgrading to EU standards would cost Ukraine €14.7bn a year.
Regardless of whether this is exaggerated, it will be an enormous sum set against total state revenues of €32 billion, against which there is already a 4% deficit.
It is clear that the EU must bankroll the Ukraine's accession, but in Vilnius it has only promised €600 million. The bidding was simply too low for the plan to be realistic.
You realize that no amount of money pumped into currently corrupt Ukraine's economy will change anything? The whole point of association agreement was not about amount of money EU will give to Ukraine, it was all about giving chance to the Ukraine.
Joining CU with Russia will destroy the Ukraine's economy, making it even more dependent on Russia. Oligarchy in Ukraine has no interest in joining it, the best for the oligarchy would be status quo. It is them who call the shots in the country now, and that is why Ukraine did not join CU and will not join it. They would not be able to withstand the competition with their richer Russian oligarchs. There is a power play in motion in Ukraine, with Yanukovych trying to assert his power, keeping the oligarchs on a leash by not signing the agreement and threatening them with CU. Given the two choices it is better for Ukrainian oligarchs to join EU than to enter a free trade zone with Russia, where they would be bought off and their businesses trampled into the ground.
You are seriously deluded if you think anything different will happen if Ukraine joins the free trade zone of the EU. What happened at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic, during the infamous shock therapy?! All our industry was bought out and destroyed by western companies (not saying they are entirely to blame, obviously, our politicians share at least half of the blame). Now 70-90% of Poland's industry, trade and banking system are controlled by foreign capital. The majority of profits are transfered out of the country, people are severely underpaid compared to their western counterparts. The prices are not much lower than in Western European countries, while the wages are much, much lower. The share wages have in GDP in case of Poland is somewhere around 40%, whereas in countries with their own industry it is 60-70%.
Right now Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place. There is no good solution.
The difference is, that what you described was a privatization of the failed state owned industry, because there was no private sector at the dawn of the 3rd Polish Republic. I doubt the guys like Rinat Akhmetov will allow their business to get owned by western companies while with Russia it would go to wild west. These two situations are not comparable, it makes no sense to compare it.
You are forgetting about (or purposefully omitting) many prospective companies that shared the same fate. E.g. Elwro. Many foreign companies that bought out Polish companies were granted enormous tax exemptions, amounting to sums greater than the costs of aquisition... It was not privatization - it was an act of treason on our politicians' part and colonialization on the part of foreign companies involved. Not to mention the fact that many of the experts that worked as advisors (to Polish companies/the government) in this whole mess later on turned out to have also been on the payroll of said foreign companies, purposefully underestimating the valuation of the companies that were being "privatized"...
You're also naively falling for the false dychotomy propagated by the proponents of the changes that ruined our country. It's not like maintaining the centrally planned economy or completely opening our market for foreign entities - only to become economically colonized - were the only options. Poland could've employed protectionist policies until its industry became at least remotely competitive with western companies. Only than opening the market would've made sense. I don't know a single country which has built its prosperity by opening its market completely. On the other hand, the list of countries that employed protectionist policies to do that is rather impressive: the USA, Germany, the UK, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Switzerland, Finland. I could go on...
The bolded is just pure conjecture.
I can agree with you, that what happened in 90's was a complete bust, a thievery. I won't deny it and I agree on the opinion it did not call for that limited number of the options you presented. It could be handled very differently.
While the bolded is conjecture, still these two situations can not be compared. What you assume will happen is also a conjecture and you have no idea how it will end up in this case.
I really don't see how Russian oligarchs will supposedly use other underhand methods that Western European business won't be willing to use. It's not like the latter is not capable of bribery, blackmail, or strongarming. They have done that in many countries before. I honestly see no difference between being economically colonized by Russian business as compared to Western business.
The difference is that Russian oligarchs will use it for sure. Western European business, perhaps.
While I understand that being colonized is a shitty situation either way, with the Russian option you are additionaly deprived of many liberties, and bound to serve the well being of the Tzar and his entourage.
EDIT: And to be clear, while I said that the 90's were a time of thievery, I for sure do not feel colonized. Working for a Polish owned business or any Western one, makes no difference to me. I deliberately say western here.
On December 13 2013 06:17 radiatoren wrote: Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable.
Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does.
oh noes
read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plant of course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine
and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis
srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times
No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School?
what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built?
I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown.
a little excerpt from that list: Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years) Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years) Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years)
Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid
there was no real reason for closure of this plant
but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it of course it is not right with EU they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food
thats how eurointegration works
Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries
they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically
here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012 Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..." Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...” W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”. F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”. W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”.
Rofl. By bringing this shit into this topic you exactly have shown what is your intent here. Really, you think that two people speak for the whole nation? The supposed "joke" was supposed to be a satire on stereotypes. They went too far with it. Too bad you didn't write what were repercusions these two guys brought on themselves. Newsflash for you: they were kicked out of their jobs and faced criminal charges on ethnic discrimination. Too bad you won't understand what is it, you probably don't have these laws in Russia.
EDIT: Not to mention the amount of jokes Germans had on Poles (mostly on based thievery), and probably still have. Same goes the another way, about German women here. Hell we a have a lot of jokes about Russians here, and it means shit. I do not understand what exactly you tried to prove here.
Another newsflash for you. Ukrainians are already a cheap labor force in large numbers in Poland and by joining EU they may have chance to change that in the future. Perhaps not near, but still nearer than when going into the club with Russia.
newsflash for you: ukrainians become cheap labor force since they become independent (1991) thats how democracy and capitalism work when Ukraine reunites with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan in CU they will have no reason to immigrate in Europe to work for food cause they will have energy safety (cheap gas), work places (all CU members will help to re-industrialize Ukraine), money (CU members actually need what Ukraine still able to produce) etc.
That EU titanic will crush in ~2017-2020 anyway. Britain's prime minister already said on several occasions Britain will leave EU. Germany and France not pleased also - they are tired of carrying dead weight of Greece, Portugal, Spain, small countries on their shoulder.
Tell me again, why then Ukrainians work illegally in EU instead of Russia? Russia is such a wonderland, why won't they go there?
I feel I fed you long enough now. Bye.
better leave this thread for good cause u don't know anything 50% of ukrainian immigrants work in Russia both legal and illegal
On December 13 2013 07:19 Cheerio wrote: [quote] Well that depends. I have heard it on the news today that EU is promising "energetical safety" to those eastern neighbors who started the EU integration process. If gas prices for EU countries are negotiated by one authority they can just include Ukraine in it and negotiate the prices for us too. Currently Ukraine is paying more than Lithuania does.
oh noes
read abouth lithuanian power plant which was closed by EU cause energy was too cheap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignalina_Nuclear_Power_Plant of course EU provided false reason it was closed because of similiarity with Chernobyl Nuclear Plant etc. the truth is all soviet (now CIS) power plants are very similiar to Chernobyl's and still working fine
and look at Fukusima - it is still operational while polluting the ocean almost on daily basis
srsly ppl stop listening to your TV propaganda use your brain at least some times
No offense, but you need to read something about different types of reactors before you argue. You claim everyone is brainwashed, but here I am, a non-biased outsider, who thinks you're the rabid one here. You need to start arguing with evidence, not just throwing silly one-liners around. Are you still in High School?
what different types of reactors have to do with closure of Nuclear Power Plant which has no incidents for 26 years since it was built?
I aree. Obviously nuclear power plants should only be closed after a meltdown.
a little excerpt from that list: Leningradskaya Sosnovy Bor RBMK 1000 from 1973– till now (operational for 40 years) Kurskaya Kurchatov RBMK 1000 from 1976– till now (operational for 37 years) Smolenskaya Desnogorsk RBMK 1000 1982– till now (operational for 31 years)
Ignalina Nuclear Power Plant has had RBMK 1500 reactor. It has his flaws but was stable and solid
there was no real reason for closure of this plant
but it was done, cause Lithuania's electricity prices were too low and they have so much energy they can sell it of course it is not right with EU they need cheap labor force to work in developed european countries so they close this poweplant, lithuanians become ultra poor and now they are all working in Britain and other countries for food
thats how eurointegration works
Ukraine will be also de-industrialized and their ppl will become cheap labor force for rich EU countries
they are already though, but numbers will increase dramatically
here is "funny" joke about ukrainians (polish radio station "Eska Rock") year 2012 Mr Wojewódzki: "I acted like a real Pole..." Mr Figurski: “You kicked your dog...” W: “No, I threw out my Ukrainian woman”. F: “Now that's a good idea. Out of spite, I won't pay her today […] Let me tell you; if she were just a bit prettier, I would have raped her anyway”. W: “Huh... I don't know what mine looks like; she's constantly on her knees”.
Rofl. By bringing this shit into this topic you exactly have shown what is your intent here. Really, you think that two people speak for the whole nation? The supposed "joke" was supposed to be a satire on stereotypes. They went too far with it. Too bad you didn't write what were repercusions these two guys brought on themselves. Newsflash for you: they were kicked out of their jobs and faced criminal charges on ethnic discrimination. Too bad you won't understand what is it, you probably don't have these laws in Russia.
EDIT: Not to mention the amount of jokes Germans had on Poles (mostly on based thievery), and probably still have. Same goes the another way, about German women here. Hell we a have a lot of jokes about Russians here, and it means shit. I do not understand what exactly you tried to prove here.
Another newsflash for you. Ukrainians are already a cheap labor force in large numbers in Poland and by joining EU they may have chance to change that in the future. Perhaps not near, but still nearer than when going into the club with Russia.
newsflash for you: ukrainians become cheap labor force since they become independent (1991) thats how democracy and capitalism work when Ukraine reunites with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan in CU they will have no reason to immigrate in Europe to work for food cause they will have energy safety (cheap gas), work places (all CU members will help to re-industrialize Ukraine), money (CU members actually need what Ukraine still able to produce) etc.
That EU titanic will crush in ~2017-2020 anyway. Britain's prime minister already said on several occasions Britain will leave EU. Germany and France not pleased also - they are tired of carrying dead weight of Greece, Portugal, Spain, small countries on their shoulder.
Tell me again, why then Ukrainians work illegally in EU instead of Russia? Russia is such a wonderland, why won't they go there?
I feel I fed you long enough now. Bye.
better leave this thread for good cause u don't know anything 50% of ukrainian immigrants work in Russia both legal and illegal
srsly, go away
I am just asking why it is not a 100%. Surely, if Russia is a wonderland it should be 100%?
And me leaving or staying in the thread is my decision or mods. Not some rabid claquer propangandist of Tzar Putin.
i read a lot in this thread about "rule of law" in EU and if Ukraine will join everything will be right in this department
let us see if this true or another hoax created by the media
do you EU citizens know that every year there is Waffen SS Veterans Parade right in EU itself let me remind you that SS were responsible for numerous crimes against humanity (murdered civilians; mostly Jews, in the countries occupied by Germany during World War II. The SS was responsible for establishing and operating concentration camps and extermination camps in which millions of inmates died of inhumane treatment, exploitation, malnutrition or medical experiments).
After the war, the judges of Nuremberg Trials declared the SS a criminal organization responsible for the implementation of racial policies of genocide and committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.
so as I said every year there is a parade of Waffen SS veterans in Riga, Latvia and Tallinn, Estonia
Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals.
On December 16 2013 06:50 maybenexttime wrote: Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals.
maybe you will link me to some official statements on that matter? maybe there was some investigation on soviet war crimes and there was official judgment? oh there is none?
On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote: Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU.
That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals.
On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote: Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU.
That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals.
i wanted to write the same but you did it first, so i just quote you
On December 16 2013 06:50 maybenexttime wrote: Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals.
maybe you will link me to some official statements on that matter? maybe there was some investigation on soviet war crimes and there was official judgment? oh there is none?
Someone asked about situation in east of Ukraine, what happening in cities, well, nothing special tbh, it's pretty quite, we got like 3000 of demonstrants in peak, and that's low number for 2 million city (Kharkov).
Current government and opposition are pretty much equally corrupted, so it's pretty hard to choose between two evil's...But Russia forcing Ukraine out from Europe by closing trade routes, a lot of Ukraine production already frozen inside our coutry and cannot be exported. Since we had a lot of different production being exported in Russia, and now it's all stuck, our economic situation soon we'll be worse that ever, default probably coming.
Although I might miss something, and am tired of this revolutions, it happens too often even for my young age :D
On December 16 2013 06:50 KwarK wrote: Estonia isn't really what people have in mind when they say the EU.
That doesn't make it 'any less' EU. The European Union stands for all it's member states equally, including SS parades, bankruptcies and corruption in addition to its false ideals.
i wanted to write the same but you did it first, so i just quote you
Well of course they have fucked up things like obviously racist neo nazi parades because they're former USSR and the values of a civilised society are still new to them. Joining the EU isn't going to instantly fix the fact that they've spent the last 200 years as a Russian satellite and I'm not sure why you think it would, the idea that they'd become France overnight is silly.
The EU isn't about to invade Estonia and tell them not to have any more parades, that's not what it does. It doesn't mean you should keep hanging out with Russia though, Russia is the backwards autocracy that caused the mess.
On December 16 2013 06:50 maybenexttime wrote: Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals.
maybe you will link me to some official statements on that matter? maybe there was some investigation on soviet war crimes and there was official judgment? oh there is none?
Soviet Russia was as bad for its victims as the Third Reich, had it been possible to keep going east in 1945 it would have done humanity, and the Russian people, a great service.
On December 16 2013 06:50 maybenexttime wrote: Well, that is terrible. On the other hand, you have a communist party in Duma, statues of Stalin and Lenin allover the country and keep lying about the second world war, pretending you somehow "liberated" Poland and other countries. Let's not forget about all the soviet war crimes too.
While I find the parade despicable, Russia has even bigger problems with the cult of Stalin and other soviet criminals.
maybe you will link me to some official statements on that matter? maybe there was some investigation on soviet war crimes and there was official judgment? oh there is none?
lets be fair, they didn't even need the excuse of a war to kill lots of people
1932-33 with the whole starving Ukrainians to death. on the bright side the authorities also ended up mass-murdering people of other nationalities so obviously they cannot be accused of being dirty racists like hitler
but ok, lets take 'during wartime shit'
380,000 poles deported to siberia and other workers paradises after the post-non aggression pact partition of poland (polish historians say 1 million). letter from beria about how to deal with certain polish army elements:
wow i'm sure these trials must have been executed with justice
but hey - once again the soviet regime proved they weren't racists because they decided to summarily execute people in all the baltic states.
1943 - deportation of the tatars and other people in the caucasus - one deportation in 1944 taking place over 6 days taking 500,000+ people. NKVD memo about the excellent efficiency of one of the later deportations:
(death rates after 4 years are around 1 in 4. Also ironic to note that a bunch of the equipment provided by the lend-lease agreements - mostly trucks - were used in this deportation)
Total counts of these deportations in the Caucasus range from 1.2-2.5m. It would probably have been more except, well, a lot of the adult males were conscripted, and consequently their families were "freed." Except their property was still confiscated so its not like their freedom was incredibly useful.
during the first months of the german invasion advance, several hundred thousand of prisoners had to be transferred. To which Ivan Nasedkin, in charge of the gulags at the time: "on the whole, the evacuation of the camps was quite well organized...most of the prisoners were evacuated on foot" - this was a 500 mile+ trip. Sometimes, when there wasn't enough time to 'evacuate' the camp, sometimes all the prisoners were executed.
this information isn't even hard to find, the only difficult part about reading it is how depressing it is
God Soviet apologists make me sick. As evil as the Nazis with twice the self righteousness.
Also you're just being ignorant at this point. Here is the Duma acknowledging the massacre. There were Russian investigations into Soviet war crimes that found that they happened, you just don't know about them and are claiming none happened. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11845315
EPT
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