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@mahrgell
I think your assessment of the situation is overall accurate.
You made an error with gas prices though- they were raised once to 385$, then a couple days later to 485$, which is about a 100$ over the EU average. They almost doubled the price for gas, and their justification for it was "Since we invaded and annexed Crimea, the deal we signed on using naval bases in exchange for cheap gas is no longer valid". It's quite pathetic, but it isn't surprising and Ukraine probably figured that it would happen. Now that I think of it, it could be argued that Russia invaded Crimea in order to "justify" cancelling the agreement on leasing Crimea for cheap gas.
As to the solution of Ukraine becoming competitive and less corrupt, I also agree  However, I am of the belief that given Ukraine's history and geopolitical position, that it can't do it alone. So, I think signing the association agreement with EU and having the EU push Ukraine along its' path towards normalization is the best option. I might be wrong on this one though :p
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On May 17 2014 06:36 Ghanburighan wrote:
Don't bother arguing with Nunez.
hahaha, grow a pair.
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On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Or find at least one, actively tries to unite Ukraine, instead of just catering one sides interests.
Oh those evil Ukrainian politicians, catering to the interests of one side (Ukraine) and totally neglecting the interests of the other (Russia). Totally unacceptable.
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On May 17 2014 06:44 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Or find at least one, actively tries to unite Ukraine, instead of just catering one sides interests. Oh those evil Ukrainian politicians, catering to the interests of one side (Ukraine) and totally neglecting the interests of the other (Russia). Totally unacceptable.
It's hard to take you serious, when you always assume, that only your opinion is Ukrainian... And everyone opposing it must be Russian. Maybe you should finally accept, that Ukraine is more then Euromaidan and the western regions...
It is quite funny... let's say, Euromaidan was at it's best representing two thirds of Ukraine (which I personally doubt, but whatever). Then Russia always tries to reduce it to the 20% right wing extremists that were among them, while you always try to paint it as 100% of Ukraine... Both sides are can hardly be taken serious... And both sides are not helping Ukraines situation at all.
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On May 17 2014 06:32 nunez wrote:posted this before: Show nested quote +...
Ascertaining the legitimacy of the interim government in Kiev is quite tricky. According to Article 111 of the Ukrainian constitution, the President can only be impeached from office by parliament through “no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition.” On February 22, 2014 the Ukrainian parliament voted 328-0 to impeach President Yanukovych who fled to Russia the night prior. However for an effective impeachment under constitutional rules the 449-seated parliament would have needed 337 votes to remove Yanukovych from office. Thus under the current constitution, Yanukovych is still the incumbent and legitimate President of the Ukraine.
... lawfareblogseems pretty clear cut, the vote was not legitimate. ousted is a fitting word for the situation, i think you'll have to bow to bbc, guardian, washingtonpost etc...
By vote one could even say that they are only 97.32% legitimate. Which obviously also means they are also ~2.68% corrupt fascists. You're making progress nunez. Meanwhile the so-called separatist movement in eastern ukraine is 89% russian secret intelligence personnel.
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On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country.
Are we talking about the flipflopper, that has served every government in the last decade, always resigning shortly before the government fell, has quite massive corruption charges against himself (see his resignation 2005), and since then more then quadrupled his wealth, while whole Ukraine went down? Awesome. If this is your best bet.... go on. Oh, and btw, in most countries corruption is indeed punishable. And as long as you aren't vicepresident of the US, it usually ends political careers, when it becomes too obvious.
Poroshenko isn't one of the richest guys of Ukraine today, because he did so much for this country.... But because he is one of the reasons, why Ukraine is not competitive at all.
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On May 17 2014 07:09 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 06:44 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Or find at least one, actively tries to unite Ukraine, instead of just catering one sides interests. Oh those evil Ukrainian politicians, catering to the interests of one side (Ukraine) and totally neglecting the interests of the other (Russia). Totally unacceptable. It's hard to take you serious, when you always assume, that only your opinion is Ukrainian... And everyone opposing it must be Russian. Maybe you should finally accept, that Ukraine is more then Euromaidan and the western regions...
So about Eastern Ukraine's interests in the conflict. Do you even know what those are? Care to tell us?
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@Nunez (and people who believe Yanukovych was impeached)
They didn't vote to impeach Yanukovych
Get your facts straight and do some research Nunez ... rather then just reading the first article that supports what you want to believe, and posting it.
A good *factual*, *detailed* explanation of how Yanukovych was removed.
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/article/was-yanukovych’s-removal-constitutional
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@jormundr
great mental gymnastics, but the ousting was not legitimate, and it was indeed an ousting.
seems most eastern / southern ukrainians are (ever more) anti-govt (like maidan was before it was turned into a vehicle for state-terrorism), not separatists.
@mc
what constitutional duties did he not fullfill then within the span of a day?
this is news to me, seems to be confliciting with the lawfare blog and gysi.a
actually most msm is reporting that he was impeached it seems... even kyivpost...
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@Marghrell
I thought you were reasonable but this statement is quite ridiculous.
It's hard to take you serious, when you always assume, that only your opinion is Ukrainian... And everyone opposing it must be Russian. Maybe you should finally accept, that Ukraine is more then Euromaidan and the western regions...
When did he write anything to insinuate that "only his opinion is Ukrainian"?? Just because he has "Ukraine" above his name doesn't mean he isn't allow to voice his opinion or write a disclaimer every post that he doesn't speak for all Ukrainians.
As to Poroshenko of course he is a corrupt business man, but that's how capitalism and politics work. Uhhhh, *cough* Schroder...??? Yes Ukraine is much more corrupt and less democratic than Western Europe so Poroshenko probably wouldn't fly as a politician in most EU countries.
However, he seems to be a fairly reasonable candidate given that he knows how to work with pro-Russian politicians (evidenced by being appointed to Yanukovych government), while his political position reflects the will of about half (maybe more..??) of Ukrainians at the moment (closer ties to the EU). He is also supported by 50% of the country according to polls. I'm not saying he's going to be great, or that Ukraine doesn't have politicians who would be better presidents. But given the situation, I think Poroshenko is a reasonable patch to fix the chaos in Ukraine.
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On May 17 2014 07:31 nunez wrote:
great mental gymnastics, but the ousting was not legitimate, and it was indeed an ousting.
seems most eastern / southern ukrainians are (ever more) anti-govt (like maidan was before it was turned into a vehicle for state-terrorism), not separatists.
please tell me about Eastern/Southern Ukrainians. One of my close friends (went camping recently together close) is from Belgorod-Dnestrovskiy (near Odesa), and another from Mariupol. Finished school there, but both live in Kyiv now, both are pro-Euromaidan. Do you want me to ask them anything specific?
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my view from polls posted in this thread earlier and articles read in media, wherein the majority did not consider kiev govt legitimate iirc. considering your posting history you will forgive me for doubting that you'd produce an unbiased account of the situation, cheerio, but ofc i'd appreciate it if you forwarded their take on the sitaution.
if you don't mind you can answer the simple quesiton of clarifying your previous comments to paleman, re: banderas wiki page.
@mc is this accurate? that he removed himself from power? haha.
President Viktor Yanukovych said a coup was underway against him after he left Kiev for an eastern stronghold and the country's parliament debated a motion calling for his resignation.
The resolution said that Mr Yanukovych "is removing himself (from power) because he is not fulfilling his obligations, and (that parliament) is setting elections for May 25."
In a televised statement on Saturday, he said he had no intention of resigning or leaving Ukraine, comparing the country's political crisis to the rise of the Nazis in the 1930s.
The embattled leader spoke from the eastern city of Kharkiv, the heartland of his support, where he appears to have fled earlier on Saturday, abandoning his presidential residence and offices.
The opposition quickly seized control of both buildings, while the police announced they stood "with the people" and wanted "rapid changes". telegraph
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On May 17 2014 07:36 Mc wrote:@Marghrell I thought you were reasonable but this statement is quite ridiculous. Show nested quote +It's hard to take you serious, when you always assume, that only your opinion is Ukrainian... And everyone opposing it must be Russian. Maybe you should finally accept, that Ukraine is more then Euromaidan and the western regions... When did he write anything to insinuate that "only his opinion is Ukrainian"?? Just because he has "Ukraine" above his name doesn't mean he isn't allow to voice his opinion or write a disclaimer every post that he doesn't speak for all Ukrainians. As to Poroshenko of course he is a corrupt business man, but that's how capitalism and politics work. Uhhhh, *cough* Schroder...??? Yes Ukraine is much more corrupt and less democratic than Western Europe so Poroshenko probably wouldn't fly as a politician in most EU countries. However, he seems to be a fairly reasonable candidate given that he knows how to work with pro-Russian politicians (evidenced by being appointed to Yanukovych government), while his political position reflects the will of about half (maybe more..??) of Ukrainians at the moment (closer ties to the EU). He is also supported by 50% of the country according to polls. I'm not saying he's going to be great, or that Ukraine doesn't have politicians who would be better presidents. But given the situation, I think Poroshenko is a reasonable patch to fix the chaos in Ukraine.
It's not like it would by my first argument with Cheerio. And if you didn't spot, that he is extremely biased towards one side (which is understandable, considering he is pretty much part of it) but also refuses to accept the existence of other "Ukrainian opinions" (like that indeed a large part of Ukraine actually wants to have close ties to Russia....)... well... It would really surprise me  But as it looks like his only part of this discussion is throwing pointless one liner... I doubt I have to bother answering him anymore ^^
And about Poroshenko:
Uh... If we just go by his statements during the last months... He is indeed by far the most reasonable candidate. I welcome his lack of anti-Russian rhetoric, his statements about joining the EU (goal 2025, instead of promising EU membership next year like Tymoshenko), his assessment, that painful cuts are needed etc... This actually really sounds good and like what Ukraine needs.
But that's all words... Hey, even Yanukovych, Juchtschenko and Tymoshenko had nice sounding programs. They were actually all elected in elections that were considered fair even by western observers. He served under each of those governments. And each of those governments just did one thing: Not care about Ukraine at all, but about their own pockets. And his role in that was not very glorious.
I would have wished for a candidate, that was not involved in all that shit.
Which actually brings me to Klitchko. Honestly, I think he was an awful politician. He obviously lacked any experience, had terrible judgement of situations and lacked political sensitivity. He was like a surfer missing every wave. But while his skills were lacking, I think he had the intentions, that Ukraine needed.
Poroshenko was always better at playing the political game. He has the political skills, he knows how the Ukrainian system works, and he is a master at controlling it. But his intentions... Well, I doubt them.
In the end, it boils down to: As there seems to be a lack of someone uniting skill and intentions, which is more important... I think for a restart as it is required, the latter.
But it may be the case, that the system is too well established and deeply rooted, so you need an experienced veteran like Poroshenko and not some bloody beginner from the outside. And maybe he turns for the better... One can only hope for Ukraine, or what will be left of it.
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On May 17 2014 07:17 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Are we talking about the flipflopper, that has served every government in the last decade, always resigning shortly before the government fell
care to back this up with facts?
On May 17 2014 07:17 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. has quite massive corruption charges against himself (see his resignation 2005), and since then more then quadrupled his wealth, while whole Ukraine went down? Awesome. as somebody who worked as investment analyst I can tell you that most of Poroshenko's increase in wealth was due to reevaluation of his assets (already acquired by 2004). Almost all assets in Ukraine experienced huge positive reevaluation in that period, especially the ones that were developed, and not just exploited. If you are willing to enlighten me on which assets Poroshenko did gain after 2004, please.
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On May 17 2014 07:31 nunez wrote:
@jormundr
great mental gymnastics, but the ousting was not legitimate, and it was indeed an ousting.
seems most eastern / southern ukrainians are (ever more) anti-govt (like maidan was before it was turned into a vehicle for state-terrorism), not separatists.
@mc
what constitutional duties did he not fullfill then within the span of a day?
this is news to me, seems to be confliciting with the lawfare blog and gysi.a
actually most msm is reporting that he was impeached it seems... even kyivpost...
They were no gymnastics my friend. It is simple math. And you are wrong about the eastern Ukrainians. My sources are irrefutable, as 100% of both Russians AND eastern Ukrainians agree that 89% is a very good number.
As to your comment to MC:
what duties did he not fulfill? I don't know, being the president? He's not just some random businessman. With the perks of being president (which apparently included quite a bit of undocumented monetary compensation) come the responsibility of actually being there during a crisis. Now this might not be written down in the Ukrainian constitution, but there's a sort of gentlemen's code among the leaders of democratic and 'democratic' countries where presidents don't run off with a bag of dirty money at the first sign of trouble.
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On May 17 2014 08:00 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 07:17 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Are we talking about the flipflopper, that has served every government in the last decade, always resigning shortly before the government fell care to back this up with facts? .
Shouldn't you have some basic knowledge of your own countries politics?
But as you wish:
Under Yushenko/Tymoshenko 2004: Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (resigned 2005 due to corruption charges, which is as we now learned, legal in Ukraine)
under Yushenko and later Yanukovych 2009: Foreign minister (removed 2010)
Again Yanukovych/Azarov 2012: Minister of Trade and Economic Development (again for only half a year)
Considering your rather short list of presidents/prime ministers in the past decade... looks like we have everyone covered.
edit: oups... looks like I overlooked Yekhanurov as prime minister... Wow... he skipped one that was 11 months in office
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On May 17 2014 08:20 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 08:00 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 07:17 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Are we talking about the flipflopper, that has served every government in the last decade, always resigning shortly before the government fell care to back this up with facts? . Shouldn't you have some basic knowledge of your own countries politics? But as you wish: Under Yushenko/Tymoshenko 2004: Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (resigned 2005 due to corruption charges, which is as we now learned, legal in Ukraine) under Yushenko and later Yanukovych 2009: Foreign minister (removed 2010) Again Yanukovych/Azarov 2012: Minister of Trade and Economic Development (again for only half a year) Considering your rather short list of presidents/prime ministers in the past decade... looks like we have everyone covered. edit: oups... looks like I overlooked Yekhanurov as prime minister... Wow... he skipped one that was 11 months in office
On May 17 2014 07:17 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2014 06:37 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 05:26 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 05:08 Cheerio wrote:On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed. What you wrote was more along the lines: "We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works. And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further. And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods. But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan! Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations. So what exactly makes a nation a failed one? Being devided? Just look at your potential presidential candidates and find a single reasonable one, that has not a huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Poroshenko. Lets see the promised huge track record of shit, that would get him imprisoned in any other democratic country. Are we talking about the flipflopper, that has served every government in the last decade, always resigning shortly before the government fell
false claim proved by yourself, nice job.
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On May 17 2014 07:31 nunez wrote:
@jormundr
great mental gymnastics, but the ousting was not legitimate, and it was indeed an ousting.
seems most eastern / southern ukrainians are (ever more) anti-govt (like maidan was before it was turned into a vehicle for state-terrorism), not separatists.
@mc
what constitutional duties did he not fullfill then within the span of a day?
this is news to me, seems to be confliciting with the lawfare blog and gysi.a
actually most msm is reporting that he was impeached it seems... even kyivpost...
@nunez
Concerning this "being news to you" - some major outlets often don't go that in depth and simply say "impeachment", because that is more or less what happened. Do you really need me to pull up other sources for this? See wikipedia.
Another source that is questioning of the decision:
http://www.rferl.org/content/was-yanukovychs-ouster-constitutional/25274346.html
A EuroMaidan source:
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/03/15/the-ousting-of-yanukovych-was-legal/
So basically, I've gotten more confused about this then I was to begin with. It's still quite murky to me how 'legal' his removal was. To me the argument that "he effectively resigned, by fleeing" is the best, and the fact that he changed his mind later doesn't change that.
There "rferl" source claims he "recording an official statement of resignation" but later retracted it, and I've heard other sources mention something of this manner.
But, I think we should be able to agree on these two:
1.)The grounds on which they removed him are quite murky and possibly constitutional. Without reading the actual decision by the rada (and constitution) we won't really have an answer.
2.)If they didn't manage to come up with a constitutional way to remove him, then it is a faulty constitution that doesn't envision the situation that a president has fled or refuses to perform his duties.
Maybe you could agree on the following also?
:
Yanukovych refused to sign the agreement on restoring the 2004 constitution and calling for early elections. He fled the capital, and it's quite clear that he was getting ready to escape, seeing that the tide has turned against him (and he faced possible imprisonment for corruption, Tymoshenko revenge). Or if not to escape, then he was basically refusing to perform his presidential duties (be there, if he travels let parliament know of his plans, be there in the time of crisis, sign decrees).
.................
So my conclusion based on these facts, is that the Rada *had* to do something and they decided to vote in a new prime minister (w/ 82% majority), and a new government (with 70 something % majority). This gave the new Ukrainian government an air of legitimacy (supported by large majority of parliament) and allowed Ukraine to attempt to move on with dealing with the crisis. The issues I can understand people having with this is that this new government was not representative : didn't have any of Yanukovych's party and had a disproportionate minority of Svoboda members.
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@mahrgell
I, like a lot of Westerners, was all for Klitschko but yeah he was probably too politically inexperienced. The fact that he is going to be the mayor of Kiev might be ideal - get some political experience and then run again later. That's me day-dreaming about a happy ending but hey, it could happen.
My theory on Poroshenko is that he will implement lot's of positive anti-corruption, pro-democracy reforms just in order to get the sympathy of the EU so he can sell a shit ton of chocolates in a huge market of chocolate lovers. He would have to probably destroy the competition in Switzerland somehow first.
In all seriousness though - I agree Poroshenko is part of the old establishment and a corrupt opportunist. But maybe he is also a patriot and wants better for Ukraine? Maybe he sees business opportunities in implementing reforms? Closer ties to the EU can help open up some profitable Western markets for him. These are all big maybes, and it would take an optimist to believe in them, but I guess we'll see.
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EPT
